Cemetir Holding

Good afternoon, this is the Coruscall Conference Operator. Welcome and thank you for joining the Cementir Holding 9 Months 2022 Results Conference Call. As a reminder, all participants are in listen-only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. Should anyone need assistance during the conference call, they may signal an operator by pressing star and zero on their telephone. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Marco Maria Bianconi, Head of M&A and Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, and welcome, everybody. Good afternoon and good morning. Welcome to Chairman Tirol being 2022 first nine months results. My name is Marco Bianconi, and I'm here with our Chairman and Chief Executive, Francesco Cattagirone. Good afternoon. And I'm going to go through 10 slides of presentation deck that have been distributed. And at the end, we're happy to take any questions you may have. Starting with the presentation on page two, just a few financial highlights on the period. Revenues reached 1.25 billion euros, up 25% year over year. Excluding IAS 29, revenues reached €1.248 billion, up 24%, mainly driven by price increases. Overall, volumes were down in low single digits in cement due to negative trend in Turkey, Denmark, China, and Egypt, a mid-single-digit decline for RMC and aggregates. EBITDA reached €238.3 million, up 10.8% year-over-year, excluding IAS 29. EBITDA reached €252.9 million, up 17.6%. Positive results in Belgium, Denmark, Turkey, US and Egypt, and negative results in Asia-Pacific and Sweden. This EBITDA includes €10.7 million of Turkish non-industrial land revaluation. EBIT reached €145.1 million, up 8.8% year-over-year, excluding IAS 29. EBIT would have been €167.3 million, up 25.5%. Profit before taxes reached €160.5 million, up 32.5%. And then financial debt reached €29.9 million, a reduction of over €70 million year-on-year, including IFRS 16 impact and 28 million euro of dividend distribution. I'm going to skip page 3 just to highlight the fact that Turkey is reported according to IAS 29 and the main point to get across this slide is that there is a minor effect of revenues and EBITDA which is almost completely offset at the net financial income level. So the overall impact of the US-29 on pre-tax is almost negligible. But we can go into details if necessary. Moving on to the different geographies on page four, starting with the most important division, accounting for around 45% of Group Ibiza, Nordic and Baltic. Here you can see that Denmark cement volumes were up 10% due to increased market activity and favorable weather and new infrastructure projects. while cement exports declined due to a redistribution of two US exports and other group companies and lower sales in some European countries. Ready Mix volumes were down 7% due to a different commercial policy and aggregates also were down 26% due to difficult comparable figures. Overall, EBITDA increased by 9% in this region, Denmark, driven by cement business where stronger prices offset high raw materials and energy and logistics costs. In Norway, RMC sales volumes were up by 5%, mainly driven by new infrastructure projects with prices up. There was a higher EBITDA thanks to rising volumes and prices despite cost inflation. There was also a mild Norwegian krona revaluation versus the euro in the period. In Sweden, results were a bit lower as RMC sales volumes were down 12% and aggregate volumes were down 33% due to the completion of major infrastructure projects in the period. As a consequence, EBITDA was lower than last year. And there was also the impact of a mild Swedish krona devaluation versus the Euro. Moving to page five, Belgium and France, As you can see here, cement volumes were broadly unchanged, with average prices up. Ready mix volumes were down by around 4%, and aggregate volumes were up by 4%, driven by stronger demand for infrastructure and favorable weather, mainly in Belgium. Overall EBITDA increased by 18% in the period from last year, benefiting from higher prices, despite the sharp rise in fuel and electricity costs, as well as raw materials and fixed costs. Moving to page number 6, North America. Here, cement volumes growth was moderate, only around 2%, driven mainly by good trading in Texas and California. whereas in the York region and in Florida, there was a negative impact due to bad weather and some logistical problems. Overall, good cost control and higher cement prices were behind an EBITDA increase of around 31% from last year. There was also a positive impact from currency of around 12% US dollar revaluation versus the Euro in the period. Moving to the next slide on page seven, Asia-Pacific. Here, looking at China, revenue was actually up by 11.5%, driven by cement price increases, whereas the volumes were down 8% due mainly to lockdown in the region and logistics issues and some weather conditions. Overall, in China, EBITDA was down 9% due to increased variable cost and lower volumes despite higher average prices and a positive exchange rate impact. In Malaysia, revenue was up by 31%, driven both by pricing and volumes. EBITDA, though, declined by around 11% as a result of a higher fuel and freight cost to Australia. There was also a revaluation of 6.5% of the Malaysian ringgit versus the euro in the period Moving to page number 8, Turkey. Here, cement sales in Euro increased by 44.7%, driven by price increases, despite the 74% Turkish Lira devaluation versus Euro. Domestic cement volumes were down 13%, impacted by bad weather in Q1, and a short contraction in some regions like Eastern Anatolia. Cement exports were up by 10%, and RMC volumes were down, actually, by 10.5%, whereas aggregates were up 70% due to full ramp-up of the new aggregate business that was acquired in Q4 of last year. EBITDA includes 10.7 million euro of non-industrial property land revaluation, and like-for-like improvement was driven by cement price increases more than offsetting production costs. On page 9, in Egypt, You can see that white cement volumes declined by 5%, with domestic sales down by 7% due to inventory build-up by Egyptian customers and greater competition. Also, export was mildly down due to lower deliveries to certain countries. Overall, EBITDA increased by 24%, driven by higher prices despite rising fuel costs. There was a stable Egyptian pound currency exchange versus the euro. And the last slide, page 10, is the full year guidance, which has been unchanged, with revenues for the year expected to exceed €1.5 billion, an EBITDA range between €3.05 and €3.15 million, a net cash position of around €60 million, after a CAPEX of around €95 million. and clearly this is a guidance that has been given before the implementation of IAS 29. So now I'm opening up the floor to any questions you may have to our chairman and chief executive. Thank you.

Excuse me, this is the Coruscant Conference operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and 1 on your touch-tone telephone. To remove yourself from the question queue, please press star and 2. Please pick up the receiver when asking questions. Anyone who has a question may press star and 1 at this time. The first question is from Emanuele Gallazzi with Equita. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes, good afternoon everybody. Thank you for taking my questions. I have three questions on the Nordics region. The first one is on Denmark, which actually posted a very strong performance in the third quarter, in particular at profitability level. So can you just comment on the drivers of this performance, just to understand the reason behind that. The second one is on price hikes. I think that negotiations are ongoing in the region. for price hikes. Any comment on your expectation will be useful. And the last one, looking at 2023, I know that might be, let's say, too early, but what do you expect in terms of volume evolution and profitability in the Nordics area for the next year?

Thank you.

The market in Nordic and Baltic performed quite well and I think one of the reasons of our good performance besides the price hikes is that we succeed in, let me say, keeping the cost inflation at a reasonable level, especially because we had electricity and partly coal. And for this reason, I think that the cost structure of all the company, but especially Nordic and Baltic, has been quite favorable. As you know, in Denmark we are the only player and so I cannot comment any kind of price hikes because it's, let me say, linked to the price increase in energy or in distribution cost and so we are still in a situation where we are calculating the effect of this the probable effect of this because it's just an estimate that we are a guess for the next year and so for sure as you have seen so far the fact that we for example give to the customer possibility, not the possibility, they bear to, for example, the CO2 cost that is invoiced separately. So we don't take the risk of the CO2 fluctuating high or low. And also the reason of this good result is that some other competitor just put, let me say, a sort of forecast for the entire year. and probably some of them missed the trend of the CO2 like the trend of the energy 2023 let's say that we are seeing the market that is slowing like most of the market in Europe but Nordic and Baltic usually and especially also because we produce white cement that is less exposed to the economic cycle, we don't see today major downturn in terms of profitability going into 2023. We are not considering any other spike in energy or other thing coming out from the actual war between Russia and Ukraine. So today We are cautious, but you have seen that in this quarter the number went even better the previous quarter, considering that this quarter the recurring EBITDA is 100%, so we don't have, let me say, extra items like what we had in the first half. So it's genuine and we are, let me say, producing a good profitability and we think also that going towards the end of the year, more or less, we should continue at this pace.

Okay, thank you very much.

The next question is from Matteo Bonizzoni with Cutler Chevrolet. Please go ahead.

Yes, thank you. I have three questions. The first one is on the pricing impact overall in the third quarter. So your revenues were up 20%, your volumes were down. So it's correct to calculate that the price impact was in excess of 30%. which in turn is well above the indication which we provided at the beginning of the year in the range of plus 12-20%. The second question is regarding the guidance. You have confirmed the guidance. Actually, in the nine months, if you consider the adjusted BBVA, so excluding this 10.7 million of real estate runoff in Turkey and excluding also YAS 2029, the BBVA adjusted was up 13%. So it seems that This last 25%, which I think, but can you confirm, is excluding the US 29, is cautious. In other words, it implies a significant slowdown in the fourth quarter compared to the trend, which you have seen in the nine months. And if the price increases, which you have done, for example, in Denmark, which seems quite sizable as structural, which makes sense, how it can be the case that in Q4 you should have this kind of slowdown. And the third and last question is on, yeah, on 2023, you just commented, no? On the environment. Just a question. Are your assumptions to have a DDVDA at least later or you are considering also scenarios in which maybe DDVDA could also be down? Thank you.

Let's say that you are right that our revenues are up nearly more than 20% compared to our initial forecast of around 12%. As you have seen, probably some of other competitors, especially in Europe, performed poorly because they implemented a wrong price hike linked to a different view on the increase of the cost of energy and distribution. What happened is that some of them aligned to their cost structure in the second half of the year and so we followed this. So is it clear that as it is today, even considering that we are already in November, the guidance without considering, let me say, the last 29 because, let me say, it arrived just in this, let me say, third quarter, I think that the revenues will be around 1.65 and not 1.5 and without today let's say it's difficult to estimate the years 29 but the recurring EBITDA made let me say in continuity with the last years I think that for sure will be higher than the guidance. So we just kept the guidance, not because we believe of a strong or sudden slowdown, but because at the end, as you know, we have to approve the number with the US 29. And with the US 29, you have to take the 31st of December exchange rate Turkish lira against Europe. And as it happens in the first half, you can have different numbers, especially on the EBITDA, because in terms of net profit or gross profit, as you have seen, the difference is between 2% or 3%. But on the EBITDA, because on the guidance we gave the EBITDA, let's say that it's difficult and if the things... are, let me say, continue with this pace, you can do, let me say, the math, and as you said, we might be double-digit, let me say, in terms of millions of euro ahead of the guidance. But if we have a sudden devaluation at the end of the year of... Turkish Lira the number officially approved might be close to this range even if I think it will be the higher part of the range anyway because I don't think that we should have another devaluation of 20-30% but let's say that usually the recurring EBITDA of the fourth quarter is more or less aligned with the third quarter and so it's up to you to make the calculation but today what I can say quite certainly is that the revenues will be 10% higher than what we gave and EBITDA without the recurring EBITDA without the yes 29% would be above the guidance the net cash and the capex will be more or less the same because even there the exchange rate might affect and also as you can imagine when you increase from one year to another one the revenues of around 300 millions the working capital absorbs part of the cash that will be released a little bit later. But, let me say, I have a positive mood even on the net cash position, even if I believe that we will not go much higher than this $60 million because Let me say, the spike, the ramp-up of the revenues is very fast, and let me say, even if our cash collection is quite fast, around, let me say, 45, 60 days, depending on the market, then each month it's more or less 150 million of euros. 15 days is 75 million, and so when you collect 15 days even ahead, but you have 150 million of increase, it seems that your net cash position is less, but at the end, as you can imagine, this cash, let me say, will be collected just a few weeks later.

On 2023?

On terms of 2023, let's say I don't have the crystal ball. Let's say that you have seen that this company, because it has a product portfolio that is, from my point of view, composed by grey cement, future shem, and white cement, it's quite resilient compared to other, let me say, comparable players. then also the possibility in our, let me say, layout to choose between for both grey and white to source from North Europe or Middle East depending on the cost as CO2 and distribution cost can also, let me say, enhance the profitability. Let's say today is difficult to know, as you can imagine, to say which is the average medium price of the energy next year or the coal price. It will be difficult to guess for everybody. I can say that we are edged for the electricity around 60%, especially Europe. And so even if there will be the spike, like what happened this year, probably... some players that are not edged as we are might increase the price two or three times during the year like what happened this year so I don't want to guess I can say that we can follow the market let's say but for sure looking at the last quarter this quarter The macro picture, due to the continuing increase of the rates, for sure will have some, let me say, weakness, especially in the real estate. For the infrastructural project, I am more positive because, let me say, you know that there are billions of euros that will be invested, especially for the energy transition. And so on the real estate side, I am softer in terms of that if the mortgage rates will go up to 5%, 6% for sure compared to last year that were around 1% and now are around 2.5%, 3% can, let me say, impact it. But then, as you have seen also this year, depends also on the cost because at the end we succeeded in, let me say, in balancing a lower market with a higher price structure.

Okay, thank you.

The next question is from Tobias Werner with Spiezel. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon, gentlemen, and thanks for taking my questions. Two, if I may. Number one, when you look to housing, obviously higher mortgage rates and the cost of living crisis may well have an impact. To remind ourselves, what is your exposure and at the bigger picture in terms of end demand to housing and maybe broken down into the overall exposure also between new and renovation. That would be helpful, number one. Number two, you have a very solid, very strong balance sheet and valuations have come down across markets and buyers have withdrawn. Private equity is no longer that active. do you feel now more comfortable to look at the acquisitions now or acquisition strategy now rather than waiting thank you very much okay thank you for the question it's Marco here I'll take the first one as you know we do have a

an exposure to residential and clearly this depends on the country. If you take the group overall, we estimate that being between 40 and 50%. This is due to our higher than peers exposure to white cement, which is a typical housing but renovation sort of business. So I would say that most of the demand for white cement, that is about a third of our business is actually renovation, repair and maintenance driven. The rest of the 40-50% of overall total exposure to residential is new build. Let's remind ourselves that generally speaking, construction techniques tend to vary significantly across countries. So, for example, the cement intensity of new build, residential new build in Denmark is much lower. than what you would expect in Belgium, for that matter, or in Southern Europe, because other materials are much more used, for example, bricks or timber. So overall, to answer your question, 40% to 50% residential, and I would say of that, around half is renovation and half is new build. And then I would then leave the floor to Francesco for the second question on M&A.

For sure, the price now are more interesting, especially if you look at the stock price of some companies. I'm still cautious about knowing well which will be the attitude of the regulator for the CO2, for the border tax enhancement, because the profitability can vary a lot, especially if you take, for example, CO2 at 100 euros like it was two months ago, or today it's around 70 euros. And it seems that most of the European countries now are pushing for, let me say, reasonable reason, fossil fuel because of the Ukrainian crisis, and this probably can move a little bit forward, let me say, I believe, the 2030 target for the whole industry. So we are in the situation at the end of the year that we'll be cash positive and we produce more than... nearly 150 million of industrial free cash flow to buy other assets. But let's say it's a bit premature for us to start to invest. We want to understand better what will happen, which will be the outcome of this war. and how much, let me say, or possible the estimates that the damage that this very high energy price produce in the, let me say, in the value chain because there are, as you can imagine, some medium-sized player that hedged not edged at all some are very exposed to the gas price and so it depends we are ready because we let me say as we did in the last 20 years to take advantage of the opportunity but frankly speaking today on my deck there are no let me say valid opportunities to invest so this doesn't means that it won't arrive the right opportunity, but we need more visibility, a bit more.

I appreciate the answer. Thank you very much.

The next question is from Emanuele Negri with Mediobanca. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon everybody and thanks for taking my question. I have, let's say, two questions. The first one is on hedging. You successfully completed hedging of electricity costs in the last quarters. Do you believe that the rolling of this hedging may become increasingly costly and expensive in the next quarters and therefore somehow impact profitability? And the second one is about energy-free profitability. I'm sorry, but I lost the line before when you were talking about this. So in terms of Denmark, you told us that profitability seems to be sustainable in the last quarter of this year. Do you think that this level of margins may be sustainable even for the next year?

For this year, we are, let me say, fully edged now. So I don't think probably we have 2% or 3% of coal that we have to purchase. But we have... We have also to consider that the market is slowing a bit and probably we don't need, we won't need, let me say, to buy, let me say, some quantity of coal by the end of the year. The profitability in the Nordic and Baltic, let's say, I think that we never spiked. The market is more or less stable compared to other markets, so for sure it's linked to the other economic environment of the rest of Europe. As I said before, from my point of view, it's important that the company is resilient to the cost increase, the ability to pass the cost, this doesn't mean that if one day for example we have to sell the cement at 500 euro per ton because the cost spike at 500 euro for sure the market in terms of demand will be hit but then let's say like what you can see so far we might sell less but also you have to consider that the There is a positive, let me say, aspect to sell less, is that you save CO2. And so you need to buy less CO2. And also for this reason, you have to balance and to understand if sometimes it's better to follow the market if it grows, or it's better to leave the cement. Today it's The dispatching cost of cement, as you can imagine, is much higher than two years ago because of the energy cost. If you have the market close to your plant, you are stronger compared to other competitors that need to deliver this cement, especially by land, far away. In Denmark, I think we are very well positioned because the country is small and the distribution costs are, let me say, modest. In other countries, like, for example, Spain, in Germany, in the USA, you have compared to the distribution costs per ton are much higher, not because of the single cost per ton, but because of the average kilometers. So I think that from the moment that we have only, let me say, two big plants in two, let me say, areas, I mean, in Belgium we are close to the Paris area, and between Brussels and Paris, the distribution are, let me say, also there, quite, let me say, favorable. So, I say, it's difficult to guess if the profitability will remain positive, I think that the company has all, let me say, the good cards to play this game.

Thank you.

The next question is from Gianmarco Gadini with Banca Acros. Please go ahead, sir.

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for taking my question. As regards the use of cash, I was wondering whether some greenfield projects were going on currently. If I'm not mistaken, there was one plant planned in Southeast Asia.

We are still, let me say, looking for an opportunity, a greenfield. And it is, let me say, in Southeast Asia and China. But the lockdown continued in China. And so we weren't able, let me say, as I said probably a few quarter ago, to, let me say, go through all the process due diligence that you might have. So we still see the need to have, let's say, another new plant in that area. But so far, let's say, we haven't found the right place with the right raw materials. So I don't think that, and even energy costs, now distribution costs impact much higher than before. So some, let me say, locations that until one year ago were, let me say, good spots, Now they are not anymore a good spot because the distribution costs are too high and so the profitability will be hampered. So we are still looking at the opportunity, but let's say there is not a ready opportunity.

Yeah, thanks.

The next question is from Giuseppe Grimaldi with BNP Paribas Exxon. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon, everybody. I have two questions. The first one is on Egypt. It seems actually you are sourcing more and more U.S. from the Egyptian plant. If you can help us in understanding how much it matters in terms of quantity, tons, basically. and if we shall expect this to be increasingly visible in the next quarters. And the second one is a follow-up on pricing. It seems that the price increase that you implemented earlier in Q3 was remarkable. Can you quantify if you have implemented a further price increase in Q3 compared to the second quarter?

Egypt, I mean, let's say, today we are going at 50% of capacity, so we have another kiln that is still idle, and we can... We are waiting for the port of Elarish to be, let me say, seven years, but we are close to end, so we can, let me say... use vassals up to 30,000 tons with the new harbour compared to the 5,000-6,000 tons today so it will be much more competitive for the dispatching of cement when we I hope that during 2023 this will happen because it seems that we are close to an end so for sure today even because a few days ago Egyptian pound devaluated 15% and you don't have the CO2 issue it is more convenient especially for export to sell from Egypt than from Denmark and so I think and I hope that we can increase today we export from Egypt to the USA nearly 100,000 tons, but for sure we can increase. But it's more linked to the new harbor than that our capacity because with the vessels limitation of 5,000, 6,000, it's not so convenient, let me say, to ship this cement to the United States.

The other question is about the pricing, if you have increased further prices into Q3 compared to Q2. And if you can help me in quantifying it.

As you can imagine, if we were, let me say, for a casting at the beginning of the year, a 12-14% of increase and now we are with the cement that is 1% lower in terms of quantity than last year than let's say in between the second and third quarter there has been let me say a price increase in the market where we operate that is between 8-10% But we followed the market and we didn't increase the price, let me say, alone. So it was just... And so I think that the extra margin that we realized, especially in this quarter, I mean, it was mainly because we succeeded in keeping the energy price lower due to the good hedging. than to the increase of the final price of cement.

Thank you. Thank you again for your clarification.

As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and 1 on your telephone. The next question is from Bruno Permutti with Intesa San Paolo. Please go ahead.

Good evening, everyone. I was wondering about prices. Do you believe that in 2003 you will be able to leverage and still leverage on prices? Also, and above all, should there be a decline in volumes that is not a scenario that can be excluded right now. Do you believe that the current level of prices will continue to be sustainable? So I'd like to understand, for the U.S. market and for Chinese market, for France and Belgium, what you would expect in terms of volumes we are starting to see possible decline in relation to prices. What could be the impact? And a second one on Turkey, if it is possible to have an idea of the price level in the country. And I'd like also to understand if It makes sense to export from Turkey at present or if the price level and the transport cost has reached too high level for export to be available.

let's say that we think that the price structure can be kept in China and USA we sell white cement

and in China we are the only player that produce well good or above average quality of white cement. USA we are the only producer so I don't see major threat to pricing structure in both this country for this reason. Belgium, France let's say that I believe that our plant in terms of cost structure is the most competitive in the range of 500 kilometers. So I don't believe, especially because the distribution costs are increasing, that even if the market will slow down, there might be a significant pressure on the price. even because some players are still, let me say, below their, let me say, in terms of price, below their full cost. And probably you have seen that some of them reported weak results because of this. So I think that we are still in an environment that besides the quantity, the pressures are for the price to continue to grow. The price level in Turkey is, let me say, quite good in the western part, in the eastern part is weaker, but also the export, we export close to one million tons of cement, you need to export because in Turkey it's difficult to find hard currency and so we export even because with the dollars or the euro that we cash in we buy coal and spare parts so the price let's say For the export, it's significantly higher than last year. For example, I don't say that it's the double, but let's say we went from 30, 32 euros to around 50, 55 euros. Internal price in Turkish lira, you know, there is so far the inflation in nine months has been 85%. So let's say that every week we update the price list. And so it's difficult to say which is the average price or if the price, because if we continue with this in the next two months, we will have another increase of 20, 25% of the domestic price.

And Bruno, sorry, the third question was on transportation costs in Turkey. Could you just rephrase the question?

No, no, it is. Yes, now it was related to the second one. So we considered, you know, some transportation costs was still an option to export. But you answered me because I see that 55 euro per share, euro per ton price is really probably very competitive outside Turkey. Thank you. Thank you. Sure. Thank you.

The next question is from Konstantinos Kontos with Palm Harbor Capital. Please go ahead.

Hello and congratulations for the great results. Two questions, if I may. The first one is regarding capital allocation. We're talking about a very healthy balance sheet that's going to be cash positive by the end of the year. and that generates a lot of cash. I appreciate that you're waiting for the right opportunity regarding M&A, but are you exploring any other opportunities in the meantime? And there is a follow-up question.

Let's say our dividend policy is between 20% and 25%. We remain in this. So I believe that if at the end of the year the positive number will be confirmed, so we will, let me say, adjust the dividend like we did last year. Buyback, let's say, we are near a threshold where, let me say, the free float cannot let me say continue to be lower because today we are at around 28 27 and a half percent after the buyback we did last year so let's say that now more comfortably than last year when we had negative rates. Let's say we started to have a positive net cash position with the rates that are going up. So we are ready now because, let's say, we have 30 million of net cash debt now, but including 70 million of IFRS 16 leasing. So already now we have 40-50 million of net cash and we are investing at the rate of 3-4%. So let's say that in this situation we prefer to pile up the cash and to wait for the right opportunity even because in cement when you want to buy a single plant or a company you need hundreds of millions of euros. even if for one or two years we pile up our, let me say, industrial cash flow, I don't see that is a major problem. So we stick to our policy to wait and see the right opportunity, and now that there are positive rates, let's say that this cash produce also a nice return and should be also for the next couple of years. At the time being, as I said, we don't have, let me say, the right asset or the right, let me say, opportunity.

Yep, that makes sense. Thank you. And a follow-up regarding the holding company, like a big percentage of the shares is like Calderone Holds. So are you thinking of releasing some of those shares to improve the liquidity for Cementir and potentially allow for a share buyback in the future? Any thoughts on the holding company structure?

Frankly speaking, we have nearly 70% as family. And today, you know, we are, let me say, quoted less than three times the EBITDA and nearly 60% of the net worth. So, at this level, to dilute our, let me say, stake to create more liquidity, I think it's not very convenient.

So,

We never did it, and we just increased. When we bought Chairmanty 25 years ago, we just had 51%. And during these years, we just increased our stake. So we believe, as also the numbers give us reason, that the company is well-equipped, let me say, for let me say energy transition and also well positioned in various markets and at this price frankly speaking it's a waste of money to sell from my point of view at this price more shares thank you thank you very much sure you're welcome gentlemen there are no more questions registered at this time

Okay, so thank you very much for your interest in Chairman Tirolding and we wish you a pleasant rest of your day and evening.

Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye-bye.