Cemetir Holding

Good afternoon, this is the Coruscall Conference Operator. Welcome and thank you for joining the Cementir Holding 2024 first nine-month results conference call. As a reminder, all participants are in listen-only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. Should anyone need assistance during the conference call, they may signal an operator by pressing star and zero on their telephone. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Marco Maria Bianconi, head of M&A and investor relations. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, and welcome to Chairman Tirol's nine-month results presentation. My name is Marco Bianconi. I'm here with our chairman and chief executive, Francesco Beltagirone. And I will go through about 11 slides of our presentation deck, and then Francesco is happy to take your question at the end. starting with the first page number two of the presentation, key takeaways. The first nine months, 2024 results are in line with our expectations with volumes up and a decline in both revenues and EBITDA also due foreign currency headwinds. Seven volumes were up 0.6%, revenue volumes were up 4.5%, and aggregate volumes were up around 4.9% versus the same period of last year. Revenues and EBITDA declined by 4.6% and 9.3% respectively, impacted by weak volumes in some areas and a foreign currency headwind. If we exclude €15.5 million of one-offs, EBITDA would have declined by 5.4% versus last year. After several quarters of contraction, signs of a market turnaround in some geographies emerged in the third quarter of 2024. The 2024 cash flow was impacted by perimeter change, about €48 million, a higher dividend distribution, and a higher capex, mainly linked to the Belgium K-4 upgrade, in line with the industrial plan. The guidance for 2024 is confirmed. Moving to the next page on the financial highlights, revenues reached €1.235 billion, down 4.6% year-on-year. Non-GAAP revenues were €1.227.3 billion, down 4.8% year-over-year. Seven volumes were up 0.6%, mainly because of Turkey, Malaysia, and the US, offsetting volume reduction in all other regions. ReadyMix volumes were up 4.5%, driven by the positive performance in Turkey, Sweden, and Denmark. Aggregate volumes were up by 4.9%. Lower revenues were due to volume decline and strong foreign currency headway mainly because of Turkey and Egypt. EBITDA reached €296 million, down 9.3% year-over-year. Non-GAAP EBITDA at €289.1 million was down 10% year-over-year. Lower EBITDA in all regions, with the exception of Egypt. Foreign currency headwind reduced EBITDA by around €27 million. If we exclude non-recurring charges and incomes from last year of 15.5 million euro, non-GAAP EBITDA was down 5.4% versus the first nine months of last year. Non-GAAP EBITDA margin declined from 24.9 to 23.6%. EBIT was 194.5 million euro, and non-GAAP EBIT was 196 million euro, down around 16% year over year. Property before taxes reached 210 million euro, and non-GAAP, 214 million euro. Net cash at 79.9 million euro was an improvement of 34.4 million in the last 12 months, which includes 43.5 million euro of dividends by the parents plus extraordinary 14 million euro dividends by subsidiaries to third parties, and extraordinary investments for 54 million euro. We turn to page number four, Nordic and Baltic. You can see that in Denmark, domestic cement volumes declined moderately due to harsh weather conditions in the first quarter and still stagnant markets. There was a volume improvement, though, in the third quarter, thanks to cement supply for the Ferman Belt project. Ready Mix volumes were up 3%, while aggregate volumes declined by 12%. If we exclude €6.8 million of non-recording income in 2023, EBITDA declined by 8.4%, mainly due to lower volumes despite a number of cost efficiencies. Norway, in Norway, already mixed sales volumes were down by around 21% due to widespread weak demand, adverse weather conditions, and delays in some infrastructure projects. The EBITDA contraction was due to lower volumes and higher transport costs. Also, the Norwegian krona depreciated by around 2%, 2.1% versus the Euro average. In Sweden, Revenue sales volumes increased by 30% thanks to the contribution of major projects, while aggregate volumes were down around 15%. EBITDA was up versus last year, and the Swedish krona revalued by around 0.6% versus the euro. Turning to page 5, on Belgium and France, which account for around 24% of group EBITDA, Here, domestic volumes decreased moderately in the first nine months of the year, whereas the construction market contracted by 6% to 7%. Exports to especially France and the Netherlands declined more sharply due to the slowdown in construction activity, also influenced by the Paris Olympics and strong competition. Ready Mix volumes were down 11% due to the general weakness of residential and commercial sector. where aggregate volumes were slightly up in the nine months of 2024. EBITDA was stable, impacted by lower sales volumes, offset by higher sales prices, lower fuel costs, lower clinical purchase and production efficiencies. Turning to page number six, Tertia, which accounts for around 17% of EBITDA. From April 2022, Tertia is considered hyperinflationary Therefore, all reported figures are non-GAAP. Domestic cement volumes increased by 9% thanks to significantly higher sales in the regions of El Azig and Kars, supported by post-earthquake reconstruction. Cement exports were up 8%, although penalized by the lack of exports to Israel because of the embargo. Ready-mix volumes were up 20%, thanks also to new plant openings. aggregate volumes were up 41% due to the opening of a new quarry in Eastern Anatolia and higher underlying demand. Revenue decreased by 4.3% because of the Turkish lira devaluation versus the euro. If we exclude 4.5 million euro of non-recurring capital gains income in 2023, EBITDA declined by 9% year over year due to higher operating costs and negative effects partially offset by higher volumes and prices. The Turkish Lira devalued by around 45.5% versus the Euro average in the period. Moving to page seven, North America. In the United States, white cement volumes were slightly up. Especially in Texas, they moderately improved aided by better weather conditions and effective commercial actions. Even if rainfall in the first quarter and fewer working days and intense competition affected prices. Florida, New York, and California deliveries increased versus last year. EBITDA was down by 4% because of a lower selling prices due to strong competition and higher fixed costs. The US dollar was broadly in line with the euro average. Turning to page eight, Egypt. Domestic white cement volumes declined by 6% due to weak residential market and the postponement of major public projects. Revenue in local currency was up 28% while in Euro declined by 8.8% because of an Egyptian pound 44.3% devaluation versus the Euro average. EBITDA increased by 25.1% due to higher sale prices partly offset by higher cost and EGP devaluation. Lastly, we have Asia Pacific, where in China, revenue declined by 19%, with volumes down by around 14% and modest price reduction, and the Renminbi devaluation versus the Euro. Volumes were affected by real estate crisis, early year low temperatures, heavy June rains, summer floods, and longer national holidays. EBITDA was impacted by lower sales volumes and prices, higher transport and fixed costs. If we exclude 2.1 million euro of non-recurring capital gains we made last year, EBITDA decline was 19.4%. On top, there was around 2.6% devaluation of the Airbnb versus the euro average. In Malaysia, domestic cement volumes were slightly down due to stagnant residential and commercial sector. Exports were up by 9%, driven by higher shipment to Australia, the Philippines, and South Korea. EBITDA declined due to lower average prices, also influenced by export mix and exchange rates partially offset by higher volumes and savings on variable cost. Here, the Malaysian Ringgit devalued by 2.9% versus the Euro average. On page 10, a few highlights of sustainability. Our decarbonization commitment continues with €35.3 million of investment in sustainability, mainly for kiln upgrade in Belgium, which will allow alternative fuels to reach over 70%. The science-based target initiative validated our near and long-term climate targets, aligned with a 1.5 degrees scenario, and approved the overall net zero emission target by 2050. We have been included in Europe's Climate Leaders 2024 ranking by the Financial Times and Statista, and we've been confirmed as a leader in the ESG Identity Corporate Index for the second year in a row. We also launched a new range of low-carbon white cement brands named DECAR in Europe, with 15% lower CO2 emissions versus Albor white Portland cement. And last but not least, on the 22nd of October, 2024, the consortium formed by Albert Portland and Erlichied was selected by the European Union to receive a 220 million euro non-refundable grant under the European Innovation Fund. This project is one of the first fully onshore carbon capture storage systems in Europe with the aim of reducing CO2 emissions by approximately 1.5 million tons per year. The last slide, page 11, is the guidance which we confirm with revenues of around 1.7 billion euro for 2024, EBITDA of around 385 million euro, and net cash position at constant perimeter of 300 million euro, and a capex of 135 million euro. With this, I end my presentation, and I leave the floor to Mr. Castagirone to take any of your questions. Thank you very much.

This is the call conference operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. To remove yourself from the question queue, please press star and two. Please pick up the receiver when asking questions. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question is from Emanuele Gallazzi-Eguita. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon everybody. Thank you for the presentation. I have a couple of questions on the Nordics. Let's start with Denmark because basically we have seen a sort of recovery in the third quarter. So I was wondering if you can just discuss a little bit more about the outlook for Denmark entering in 2025. are you seeing some improvement on the residential market and even on export do you expect this softness to continue in the coming quarters and the second one still on Nordics is related to pricing can you just help us understanding a little bit better the current pricing environment in Nordics and basically what do you expect for 2025? Thank you.

Good afternoon. Thank you. Denmark is stabilizing and we expect for 2025 better results, especially because the Ferman project that is the tunnel between Denmark and Germany is picking up. And so we expect that compared to 2024, we should have, let's say, around 5 million more of EBITDA compared to 2025 compared to this year. The price, I think, for the old perimeter is more or less stable. And even if we have seen so far a decline of quantity in some markets, especially China and Belgium-France because of the end of the Olympic infrastructure. So we continue to see some softness for these two geographies even in 2025. The other geographies we expect that they should improve compared to 2024. For example, in Belgium, despite lower volume, we expect that the new kiln the revamp of the new kiln will allow us to increase the alternative fuel from 25% to up to 75%. This means that the actual price that we can expect savings next year of 5-6 million euros in terms of fuel cost. Thank you.

The next question is from Matteo Bonizzoni, Kepler Chevrolet. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Good afternoon. I have two questions. The first question relates to the carbon capture and storage project in Denmark. We have read that you received a grant, a public funding worth $220 million. And as you said before, this project, if it's going ahead, it should allow you to save 1.5 million ton of CO2 emission. I just want to have some data maybe on the return for this project and the capex which would be left on top of you and maybe some details on the timeline in how many years this capex could be spread. And if you have already taken a final decision, go ahead or not, go ahead. it would seem that it's a no-brainer in the sense that including the public grant is something which needs to be done, but I was just checking if it's true or not. Thanks. And the second question is on the trading condition in the fourth quarter of the year. The question is the following one. Last year, the fourth quarter was, according, let's say, in relation to the typical seasonality, pretty weak, because it was 10 million below DBDA-adjusted Q3. If I go back, normally Q4 compared to Q3-adjusted DBDA was from inline to slightly below. So it could make think, let's say, that Q4 this year could be maybe not down compared to Q4 last year, but it's just, I mean, something which I would like to check. Thanks.

Okay, thanks.

Thank you for... The question, so regarding the carbon capture project, what we can say at this point is that we received 220 million over a total cost estimated of around 500, 530. The remaining roughly 300 million will be birthed by our partner, EarlyKid, nearly 80%. So our estimated capex will be in the range of 90 million euro in total for the last three years. So 30 million of capex for the 27, 30 for the 28, and 30 for the 29. These are estimations because, you know, we are talking about a few years ahead and, you know, the raw material cost might change up or down. So then the contract that we have signed with EarlyKids is a sort of fee that we will pay on the bones that we will produce and so we will have let me say just a cost on the balance sheet and not a cap so for us let's say it's a minimal and it's a investment the go-ahead I mean we have nearly six months to say yes or no but this mostly depends on let's say our possibilities to interact with the Danish government about the infrastructure that they have to build, because as you can imagine, every plant or each plant has to build, let me say, its own, let me say, carbon capture, and then this CO2 has to be conveyed to the storage place. but the infrastructure in every country has to be built by, let me say, the local administration. So from the moment that we cannot store, like everybody, the CO2 at the plant, we must be sure that our timeframe is aligned with the timeframe of, let me say, the public administration. So we have several talks. We think that Denmark is the first one that already authorized this big inland storage place of nearly half a billion tons. That is 60 kilometers away from Aalborg. And so we think, let's say, that we should go ahead because the solution is already in place. So we have to receive the confirmation that by 2029, when we will complete the investment in the plant, the infrastructure will be completed because otherwise it will be difficult, let me say, to store this CO2. And so there is, let me say, about the CAPEX, this is the maximum expense that we expect three years from now, that is, as I say, a total of 90 million euros. The Q4 I expect that let's say more or less we should be in line with the other, with the same quarter of last year. So this means that let's say we expect to have as likely better results than our guidance, and that might fall between 390 and 400 million of EBITDA. Also, the net financial position that so far is affected by an extraordinary investment of around 55 million. We expect that should be better than what we forecasted, let's say. So without this investment, about 300 million, or including this investment, let's say, above 250 million, so that is... the 300 minus the 54 that we are spending. So we are seeing some rebound in some markets. Where will we continue to see some weakness even in 2025 is Belgium, France and China. The other market will be better and also in Egypt because of the restart of the second line, we expect the next year nearly five to six million better results because we will sell and export more cement because we have another 500,000 tons of availability for the market.

Thank you.

The next question is from Emanuele Negri, Mediobanca. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon, everybody, and thanks for the presentation and for taking my question. I have one question on the Danish market. You mentioned that Denmark benefited from a positive contribution from the Furman Belt project. Could you please quantify this positive contribution for both the third quarter and maybe for the quarter side in terms of expectation? Thank you.

I say that this year we were, let me say, short in terms of delivery to this project. So we have 70% below 7-0, below the expected schedule. So if next year we will go at, let me say, 100% of the schedule, we expect 5, 6 million more. This means that the total projects should benefit each year of around 8 and 9 million euros because this year the benefit is limited to 2, 3 million because of this, let me say, low dispatching.

Thanks.

The next question is from Tobias Werner with Stifo. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon, gentlemen. Thanks for taking the question. Two questions from me around the CCS project. Just remind us, I've just got your sort of CO2 emissions in front of me, Scope 1, Scope 2, which add up for the group at, if I'm not mistaken, 7.7 million tonnes. You talk about a reduction of 1.1 million tons, but just remind us, what is your European emissions of that, of the 7.7 million, because it's the European emissions which carry the CO2 cost? And then secondly, just to understand, you talk about the total project, 500 to 530 million, the grant of 220 million, that should get you with the 300 million covered by ALA Key to... to roughly, you know, that total cost. So the 90 million is for what? Is that the fee you pay to Air Liquide later on, or how should we see this from 27 to 29? Thank you very much.

Let's say just to complete the framework. So of this 500, 530, 90 million of this 530, will be directly invested by us. The other will be invested by EarlyKid and the other part is the grant financial. So our 90 million will be in the three years, 27, 28 and 29. I must add that we also apply, will apply for the Danish carbon fund and also we expect to receive, but this will be awarded at the end of 2025, early 2026. The Danish fund is just for, will cover the OPEX cost for 20 years. So we don't know. how much we will receive, but while the European Fund will cover part, I mean, 40% of the total CAPEX cost, we expect also to receive a fair amount, I don't know today, I cannot estimate, to cover the OPEX cost. Also, I want to add just to be fully transparent that the The contract with EarlyKid will last 15 years, so they will charge us a certain fee depending on the cost of electricity, the cost of raw material, the tones produced, and will last 15 years. will last for 20 years when we will start the plant. So we expect from 2030 to 2050. And also the Danish fund will be also evaluated year by year by inflation. This is important because after 20 years, otherwise the value of this, let me say, fund will be, in real terms, much lower. So, let's say that we might also see positive outcome. You have to consider that today there are no, let me say, green cement or zero-carb cement production around the world. Heidelberg will start next year with this small plant in Norway of around 400,000 tons, but what we expect that among the already authorized project and this last project that has been authorized now, by 2030 there will be roughly nearly 10 plants that will produce zero-carb or nearly zero-carb cement. That will cover let's say 10-15% of the production. So what we expect is that there will be a certain scarcity of this cement for the further five to 10 years because we think that just to reach a 50%, let's say, of zero carbon cement covering the market, let's say, we might see by 2040 or above 20 or after 2040. So Heidelberg is already marketing the cement at 500 euro per tons because now it's the only cement available. So I don't forecast the price of cement from now to five years because this is a new technology. For sure we have some and certainly the technology is well-proven. I mean, CREOCAP is something that is already used to extract oxygen and also the other noble gas from the air for medical purposes. The issue, I mean, that today we have on this project is how to deduct correctly the smoke of the city, because the smoke has a certain percentage of dust. So this is the issue, but also let's say that our project using this technology will be the third one, and so we have another couple of projects already authorized and started for Holstein by early heat that will start one year earlier. So I hope and we hope that the learning curve on the dusting this, let me say, smoke will be well ahead after one year of training. There's a few... Produced by us in Europe is roughly today around 3 million, half in the Nordics and half in Belgium, France. The other is produced in the other part of the perimeter, but the 3 million tons of CO2 is involved in the ETS scheme.

Okay. And when you... Looking at Belgium, are you applying for any further grants from the EU as we speak, or what's the situation there?

We are lucky just because we have only two plans compared to others. So we have only Belgium, we will apply, but also you have to consider that Europe will finance, and also we saw in this, let me say, last outcome, the innovations of the project. So you don't just, you cannot ask money or funds just because you want to decarbonize your product. You have to be innovative and your project has to be different from all the other projects already approved. So the forward we move, the more complicated will be to have this fund. And in fact, this round, only three projects over I think 20 or 25 from the cement sector have been awarded. So we will apply for Belgium, but also we need to understand which innovation we can bring to the process, because otherwise we will not receive the funds. Anyway, if you consider that the target of the market is to be minus 50% by 2030 in terms of emission. So if we will be at zero, and in Belgium we will reach with alternative fuels around between 50 and 60% of emission, we will have an average that is around 30%. That is well below, and so we will be for sure long of, let me say, certificate even if one will be not decarbonized. This might be a competitive advantage that day.

And in Belgium, the storage, I take it, will be offshore, right? Or onshore, what you're considering?

I think that will be offshore. I mean, early heat is also building a terminal to receive the CO2 from the Benelux in Antwerp, and probably this terminal will feed the, let me say, the storage in Denmark. So we will see, because I think in Denmark the availability is half a billion, and in Denmark there are only two big emitters, ourself and Utility, yes, that is producing. So the production of CO2 from industrial sector in Denmark is around 2.5 million tons. So they will authorize another two sites in land and the total capacity of Denmark, we think that in a couple of years will be above 1 billion tons of storage. So for the Danish country and government will be a huge inflow of money like oil. Let me say just because they have the availability of this site and they will receive for sure from Nordics and Northern Europe and also I think Germany, the CO2 and they will stock below the ground.

One last question, and thank you for your patience. Half a billion tons of storage sounds huge. Excuse my ignorance, but what was that? Was that a former gas extraction site, or what is it?

It's like, let me say, I don't know exactly. It's a salt cave cavern. I mean, that's a depleted mine. But let's say it's not a natural site that are at least 2,000 meters below the surface because this is also the standard. And they can be, let me say, stored for, I mean, 100 years, this CO2, without rock salt.

Rock salt. Thank you so much.

The next question is from Bruno Permutti in Tesa San Paolo. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon and thanks for taking my questions. The first one concerns the cost outlook that you see. It seems to me that you should have some recovery volumes next year in some important markets you should have what we have seen until now it's a certain price resiliency correct me if I am wrong on this and so I was wondering what is what is the cost outlook you see and because I would imagine that from the nine months results, we should see perhaps an improvement of the operating profitability in terms of margins next year. So I was wondering if this is a scenario that is consistent with your cost outlook. The second point concerns the US market. I know it's not so big for you, but something has changed perhaps there and it would be great to have your opinion on eventual changes with with the new elected president if you see something different going on or if it will be business as usual. And the last point concerning M&A, we have seen some bolt-on acquisitions this year. It's something that we will continue to see in the coming years, waiting for something a more clear long-term outlook. So what are your ideas for the net cash?

I mean, what we see and already start, let me say, to outline is that we today see a mix of, let me say, recovery and also cost saving due to the investment that we have done that should increase the result that we will have this year of 20, 30 million next year. I mean, so what we expect is that the various, I mean, the revamp of the Belgium kiln, the start of the second line in Egypt, the pickup of consumption of the big project in Denmark, and other small adjustments. This is what we have already started, our budgeting season, and we will, as usual, release to the market by, let me say, early February the new three years plan but what we see from now is that we should have an increase between cost savings and more revenues that should impact from 20 to 30 million because also let's say we have to consider that the foreign exchange market even for the result of the election that USA can change abruptly for the American market or for the dollars. So the range of the millions is because we have to see and depending on which exchange rate we will put in our budget. Then your second question, the market, let's say for sure, Trump is, let me say, a pro-spending, pro-infrastructure, but also we have to consider that we are in white cement, and let's say we are already seeing some pickup in the market, but frankly speaking, even in the past, from the moment that white cement is not used for infrastructure, we don't think that will affect our perimeter in a same, let me say, sensible way. The last question is that we have made some, let me say, tactical M&A, small repositioning. So there are other fine tuning that we might, let me say, do in our perimeter. but the bold acquisition, I think we have to wait, as already said, how this transition will start, let me say, to affect the market positively and negatively because, as I said, some players, some plans... will not be eligible for being revamped. And so what we will see in the next two or three years is that, especially Europe, the market, especially more than the market, the production layout of Europe might change in a significant way. We are building cash, and also if you consider that, let's say, this EBDA next year, we will, let's say, we will come back to our normal capex that is around 80 million. So this year we spent 130 because of the kiln in Belgium. we should have an industrial cash flow of around 200 million euros before dividends. So it's something that, let's say, allow us to look at the certain, let me say, opportunity, even big opportunity, but let's say, I think that now is not the right time. It's still not the right time, let me say, to invest because you have every time to think about how much will cost to decarbonize the asset and especially if in that country the infrastructure will be available and ready and when because otherwise let's say even if you want to decarbonize and it seems that for example in Italy so far no one has been awarded of any facts and especially because the country per se has a delay in designing the infrastructure to ship the CO2 from the plant to the natural site for the sequestration or to the harbor if you need to ship away. So I I expect that probably in Italy, most of the plants will continue to pay the CO2, probably an increase of CO2, let me say, price, because they will not be for sure ready by 2030 with investments, because even if some of the players, I'm aware, because we have in Italy, Buzzi or Heidelberg, that have the money and the willness, But if the country is not ready, they cannot revamp the plant because otherwise, as I said before, if you don't have the infrastructure, then you waste just the money. So what I expect is that in some country, some plants will not benefit of these funds. And so as you can imagine, the price of these plants is completely different.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yes, gentlemen. Thank you for taking my follow-up question and direct it to you, Mr. Cartagirone, if I may. Just to get this clear in my mind, Belgium, did you say that your carbon footprint will fall by 50% to 60% because of the use and investment into alternative fuels, i.e. the 1.5 million will fall to, let's say, 0.75 million tons of CO2 emissions? Just to clarify. Thank you.

What I said, yes, more or less this, is that from the moment that, as you know, part of the CO2 is produced by the chemical reaction of the cement that is roughly 50%. So without, let me say, at the carbonating system, you cannot get rid of this 50%. So what we expect is that of these, let me say, actual one and a half million of CO2 emitted by Belgium, we should lower this to 50, 60%. This means that 750, 900 tons of CO2 because below you cannot go if you don't have CCS system. So this is, so in Europe, what we expect once the Danish plants It's finished that our total emission on two plants should be around 800, 900 tons of CO2. That is roughly below one-third of what we are emitting today and much below the European target.

Okay, and the timeline of that is that by the end of 2030 or beginning of 2030s?

We expect in 2029 to finish the investment. So let's say that in 2029, I mean, to build the plant and to also to redesign part of the plant for the CCS, it takes two years. I mean, the other three years is mainly for authorization and for the design and also to understand if we are going in a parallel line with the investment of the infrastructure of the country. But otherwise, let's say that it will take six months to review all the projects and understand everything, so we might be even ready in two years and a half. So the 2029... might be even anticipated a bit because of, let me say, positive environment solution. But otherwise, let's say, during 2029, we should, let me say, start the operation. And if in Belgium, because we will apply for the fund of the next round, but we don't know if and how much, because this time you probably have seen that we have been awarded the maximum amount compared to the other cement layer, and one of the highest between all the 10, let me say, already awarded, because, as I said, it's very innovative for various reasons. Even because it will be applied both for gray and white, it will have insured, let me say, storage, and also because we will increase with this system the heating availability to the city of Aalborg of another 30, 40% because this, let me say, the carbonizing will use energy and with this energy we can produce heat that can be.

So all this,

gave us the possibility to have a very high score. So I don't know, let's say, frankly speaking, if Belgium, but even the other project of the other competitors will receive this kind of rating because I'm aware that the innovation today in the CCS is limited to CreoCap or Amin that is a sort of filtration that is the technology chosen by Heidelberg, but From our point of view, there are, let me say, other new technology in the pipeline for the next one, two, or three years. So we see a limited opportunity to receive funds, or we might receive funds, but with a lower percentage compared to what we have received now. Okay.

Understood. Thank you very much.

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Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you.