Dampskibsselskabet Ord

Good morning and welcome everyone to this webcast with a presentation of the Q2 2026 report from NOAN that was published this morning. In the first part of the presentation you'll be in a listen-only mode which will be followed by a Q&A session. During the Q&A session, if you have dialed in by phone, you'll be able to ask questions verbally by pressing pound or hashtag followed by five on your phone's keypad. And if you're watching this webcast online through a browser, you can ask your written questions in the chat below. Those questions will not be published, but the operator will read them aloud. With that, I'll hand over to CEO Jan Rindbo and CFO Martin Badsted from NOAN. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much and from my side also welcome to our Q2 presentation. I think this quarter is probably one of the most sort of complicated in terms of operations, but it's also one of our better quarters in terms of the financial performance. So we'll dive obviously into that a little bit later. I'd like to just start by setting the scene, just giving you a short introduction to Norden. As you know, our purpose is to enable smarter global trade. We transport All the essential raw materials that you use in energy, construction, manufacturing and all these commodities underpin the modern living that we all know. Norden is one of the world's largest carriers. We operate a fleet now just under actually 500 vessels and we transport around 130 million tons of these essential raw materials on an annual basis. This scale gives us extensive market insight, gives us strong access to our customers and it gives us the flexibility to optimize our fleet across all these various vessel segments that Norden are in and across all the regions that we operate in. So our model combines on one hand customer solutions with very disciplined exposure management and flexible capital deployment. And that enables us to manage the shipping cycles, but also retaining strong cyclical upside. And when you look at that approach, that has generated over the last five years a return on invested capital of 25%. And that demonstrates our ability to create attractive returns through these changing markets. So as we now move on with the slides, let me explain the business model behind our results, how that actually works. So Norden is more than just an owner of vessels. We combine three closely connected capabilities, commercial operations, exposure management, and asset allocation. This commercial platform connects all the essential cargo that we carry with the right vessel capacity and enables us to optimize voyages, trading patterns, and the fleet utilization. and we manage this exposure through a combination of owned, leased and short-term chartered capacity and it allows us to adjust our fleet to markets and also to customer requirements as they change. So we allocate our capital across segments, vessels, owned, leased, short-term charters, purchase options in order to seek attractive risk-adjusted returns while we have the flexibility to recycle capital back into the business. And together, when you combine all this, these capabilities create an integrated and capital efficient model that is built around the customer solutions that we deliver, the market insight that we have, and then this disciplined execution. And this model becomes particularly valuable when trade flows are complex and customers place a premium on reliability. And that's the kind of market backdrop we are in today. So I'd like just on this slide to just highlight the market fundamentals that we see increasingly favoring this Norden model. So the supply side outlook is positive. We are seeing that particularly in dry cargo where we have an aging global fleet and where the order book actually still remains modest. And at the same time, we see the geopolitical disruptions and strained supply chains are making trade routes longer, less predictable, and operations are becoming even more complex. And these conditions, they support vessel demand, but they also increase the importance on flexibility, scale, and execution capabilities. And here we see that customers increasingly are preferring large professional and reliable operators that can secure capacity and manage their complex logistics across multiple regions. And this is sort of where Norden stands out with our fleet of just under 500 vessels, global commercial network and this customer centric approach that we have. And therefore we are actually really well positioned to benefit from these Structural Trends, not just through our freight market exposure, but also by helping our customers managing these complex supply chains. So with that introduction, I'd like to hand you over to Martin to translate this into financial numbers here in the second quarter. So Martin.

Thank you very much. So, Norden had a good quarter in Q2. As you can see from the graph on the left-hand side here in the dark blue bar, we made a net profit of 101 million dollars in the second quarter. That means that our return on invested capital grew to 11% when measured over a 12-month basis. Asset values actually continued to increase, leaving our NAV at the end of the quarter at 466 kroners per share, which implies an increase of 23% since the beginning of the year. And finally, we continue to distribute cash to our shareholders, now distributing 34 million dollars in line with what we also did after Q1. And those 34 million dollars are composed of a dividend of 2 kroners per share and a share buyback of 25 million dollars. Looking at the development in the two segments, there were improvements in both of them. As you see from the graph here, the tanker division made 81 million dollars in the second quarter, which was up some 30 million dollars compared to the year before. That was based on a very strong spot market, driven of course by geopolitical disruptions and uncertainty, and not least good performance in the chartering teams. TriCargo delivered an EBIT of $8 million, which of course is not enough, but it was a huge improvement over the minus 45 million delivered in Q1. As we discussed in Q1, we invested in fleet repositioning, i.e. moving vessels from the Pacific into the Atlantic, despite the incurring costs in that respect, but in anticipation of better rates in the Atlantic going forward. That has panned out as expected and has resulted in benefits from the fleet position in Q2, which we expect to continue during the rest of the year. Another important factor when interpreting these numbers is that within dry cargo we had a number of ships getting stuck in the Persian Gulf and that in our estimation added some 30 million dollars of extra costs in the first half of the year. So of course without these extraordinary costs, performance would have been even stronger. We continue to proactively manage our core fleet. The asset management team has been super active in the first half of the year, doing 29 sale and purchase transactions. The overall intention with this is of course to take money off the table, because the asset values are so high. But it is actually also a movement of the exposure within our portfolio away from the commoditized and large vessels such as CapeSize and Panamaxes and MRs and moving the capital into the smaller segments where specialized capabilities and customer relations are more important. So we are investing in handy size and multi-purpose vessels. And that actually means that even though we are taking sales gains off the table with our vessel sales, we are still investing in the fleet and maintaining a core fleet of around 80 units and maintaining a large amount of purchase options, providing good upside going forward. And with the fleet changes and the improvements in asset values, we saw our net asset value, as I said, improve to 466 kroner per share, compared to an increase of 23% since the beginning of the year. As you can see in the pie chart, around two thirds of the NAV is concentrated in dry cargo, 19% in tankers and the rest in other net assets with 14%, covering of course balance sheet debt, cash and other investments. And on the right-hand side, we provide some sensitivity analysis indicating that if the asset values and forward rates increase, for instance, by or change by 20%, that will either, if it's a decline, lead to an NAV of 333 kroners per share, or if it's an improvement, to an NAV of 625 million kroners per share. Turning to the market developments, it was overall strong markets in both dry and tankers. You can see here from the two top graphs that spot rates increased in dry by some 70% year on year and in MR about 63% year on year. That improvement was of course also visible in asset values, which increased both by 27 to 28% across the different segments. The supermax or the dry cargo market strength was driven by an actually strong demand picture, especially in thermal coal, iron ore and miner bogs, whereas the bauxite imports were a little bit weak despite having been a growth driver in the most recent quarters. The outlook for dry, in our view, is actually quite firm. We expect a 27 that is probably similar, slightly lower than 26, which has been a good year so far, driven again by strong demand, but certainly also by a modest supply outlook. The order book is increasing as people are chasing these returns in the market, but so far we don't think it's alarming and there is still an aging of the fleet, which will provide decent scrapping potential to offset the higher fleet growth going forward. On the tanker side, what is happening is of course disruptions in trade flows that are keeping spot rates high, even though fundamentals are looking weaker by the week here. So you have actually seen ton-mile growth being quite negative, and you have seen order books growing quite a lot, especially in crude, and that of course starts to imply that maybe there's some more uncertainty on the level of tanker rates going forward. Also in tankers, we see a very strong order book development. And even though there is also aging of the fleet there, it seems like the order book acceleration is somewhat running ahead of that aging, so that the scrapping potential is not enough perhaps to support the market fully. That then means that if we look at our guidance, we actually increased our guidance back in the early parts of July based on a strong performance in Q2. And we issued there a guidance of 120 to 190 million dollars. And now, after also a good performance over the summer, we have decided to increase the bottom to 140 million dollars, narrowing the interval to 140 to 190 million dollars of net profits for the full year. We are in terms of open capacity mainly exposed to dry cargo with some 4,500 open days and less in tankers where we have around 1,200 open days. But overall for the next coming years we are fairly highly covered in both the large dry cargo vessels types and within MR with a cover of 80% over the coming couple of years. And with that, I will hand you back to Jan and final words.

Thank you very much. So in terms of strategy, our strategic direction is clear. We want to reduce the earnings volatility while maintaining the high returns that have characterized Norden. So firstly, we are deepening our customer relationship. We are building more recurring cargo flows that will support a broader and more predictable earning space going forward. And secondly, we are expanding into more specialized areas. This includes multipurpose vessels, project cargo, minor bulk, and maritime logistics. This is where expertise and operational capabilities and that complexity that we are solving for our customers that creates a greater differentiation to what we can offer our customers compared to the rest of the industry. And at the same time, we will preserve the agility that is fundamental to Norden. We will continue to capture attractive market opportunities, but it is within clear risk-reward guardrails. So the ambition here is not to remove cyclicality, but to combine a more resilient earning space with disciplined exposure management to the cyclical upside that we see. And if you take that together, the strategy reinforces what we believe is a differentiated and actually attractive investment proposition. So when you look at the equity story for Norden, we're combining on one hand strong fundamentals, which Norden obviously offers exposure to. We have constrained vessel supply, increasing complex trade flows, and that favors large, reliable operators such as Norden. and our flexible and capital efficient model allows us to combine both short-term capacity, leased vessels, owned assets and all the embedded purchase options that we have and allows us to adjust to markets as they change. And importantly, this model has actually delivered, when you look at our average return on invested capital over the past five years, we've generated 25% annual average over that period. We also see significant underlying value. Martin highlighted our NAV at 466 kroner per share, and that is somewhat higher than the current share price we see for Norden. And when you look at the returns that we have given, we have a strong record of that. We have returned 1.2 billion dollars to our shareholders over the last five years. So to summarize that, Norden represents a differentiated shipping investment. It's asset-light, it's commercially agile, and it's focusing on generating attractive returns through the cycle. So with those words, that concludes the presentation, and we can now move to the Q&A session.

Thank you Jan and Martin and yes we're now ready for the Q&A session and just to repeat from earlier you can get in line to ask questions by pushing your pound key or hashtag followed by five on your phone's touchpad and then that is if you dial in by phone and should you wish to withdraw from the line you can push the pound key or hashtag followed by six and if you're watching this webcast online through a browser you can ask your written questions in the chat below Those questions will not be published, but the operator will read them aloud to management. And we will first have a question on your guidance here. And the question goes here. Is it to be on the safe side or somewhat conservative that you're only guiding for annual earnings of 140 to 190 million US dollars WinQ2 alone generated around 100 million US dollars. Could you elaborate a bit more on what is driving this and as it says here, in my view, relative low guidance?

I can put a few words to that. I think obviously the Q2 seen in isolation was a very strong quarter. I think as usual in shipping you have to see our financial performance over several quarters and here if you combine Q1 and Q2 you obviously get a slightly different picture than just looking at the second quarter. I think what is important to understand in our numbers when you look at the first half figures is that we have already delivered 61 million dollars of sales profits in the first half and therefore we are guiding towards 79 for sales profits for the total year that means we have much less contribution from sales gains in the second half so that is clearly one important driver I think the other one I would highlight is that the tanker market was exceptionally strong in the second quarter. And that was obviously driven by the panic in the market right after the Hormuz closed. And some of that panic has subsided. And that means also rates are, if not normalizing, they're still high, but they are not as high as we saw in the second quarter. So I think the tanker tailwind will be less pronounced in the second half. That is certainly embedded into our expectations. Having said that, we do expect the turnaround that we've seen in dry. We do expect that to continue into the coming quarters. We've had a very positive development in the dry cargo business here through the second quarter, where, as Martin highlighted, we are back in black, first of all, but it actually also includes some fairly significant one-off costs that has hit the dry cargo bottom line in the second quarter. So the underlying performance is actually even better than the numbers suggest. And we expect this continued momentum continuing into the second half of the year. And then maybe just a final comment. We did lift our guidance back in July. We are now lifting the bottom end of the guidance again. So I think also the guidance here supports that positive development that we are seeing in the business.

Thank you. And then another follow up on this. Can you explain the graph under your guidance and it says 450 vessels, but don't no one have notable less vessels?

No, I think actually that recently we have seen tremendous growth in our activity levels, which actually means that we have employed around 470 vessels on average in the most recent quarter. So activity levels are quite high, but you can see here of course in terms of exposure, most of this is covered in Q3 also, because we are sort of almost in the middle of Q3. But otherwise it does indicate how much open capacity we have in the two segments dry cargo and tankers for both the reminder of the year and for the coming years.

And then there's a question related to sort of the low water situation in some of the rivers in Europe and the price increases on the Panama Canal. Can the price increase for using it be passed on to the customers 100%? Are you seeing like DSV and Maersk that it actually lifts your margins? And what about the rivers in Europe? Can you say a few words about the situation here?

Yeah, I think it's all part of this El Nino effect that we do see impacting our business. And the Panama Canal, what we're seeing here is a reduced number of transits because of declining water levels, and we actually expect them to continue to decline. In the coming months, we see more congestion on both sides of the canal, so more waiting time. All this builds into the fact that the world needs more ships to move the same volume of cargo, because if you take one of our core trading routes, grains from the US Gulf to Asia, Typically, a lot of that traffic would go through the Panama Canal. There's one alternative, that is to go through the Red Sea, that is not so popular now, and the Suez Canal. And that means, again, it's a good example of ships going on longer routes carrying the same volume of cargo. So yes, we actually see this supportive of both, you know, Norden and our markets. And it's just, you know, one of the sort of bottlenecks that are growing in the supply chains that we are an important part of. So yes, it has an impact.

Thank you. And then there's a question related to your net asset value. Go to this slide. As it says here, net asset value is 466 per share, and you have been buying back at an average of 313 Danish kroner. Why is the new buyback only at US $1.25 if you believe the share trades well below value?

Yeah, that's actually a good question. We firmly believe that it's a good idea to buy back shares with the current share price compared to the NAV. But we buy back our shares under something called safe harbor regulation to avoid conflicts in relation to inside information. And part of those regulations is that there are limits to how much you can actually buy back on any given day. And the 25 million is sort of the maximum amount that we can actually buy back over the course of the period here. So there's actually not so much more we can do on this front.

Maybe if I can just add one thing on the NAV. And I think what is interesting is that actually, if we turn to this, we had a slide with the pie chart here. I mean, what is interesting here, I think, is that we have a significant part of our NAV that is cash, so therefore not actually exposed or at risk in terms of the markets. We have 19% of our NAV here tied to tankers. but we have very large coverage of our tanker capacity for the next three years so here actually we are well covered and then within the dry cargo nav as Martin mentioned earlier we are taking cover locking in profits on the more volatile elements of that on the larger vessels and that means that increasingly the nav exposure is more towards the more specialized vessels where actually we think that not It's not just a question of having market exposure. We like that. That's good. But it's also a question of having those capabilities. Those ships are typically servicing customers with more complex requirements. And that's typically where the ability to earn higher margins is also better than it is on the more larger commoditized parts of the shipping segments.

Thank you. And then a question related to the Strait of Hormuz. I assume all DSNORN's operated vessels are now out of the Strait of Hormuz and no longer stuck here. How will you handle voyages there going forward? Are you avoiding the Strait entirely and what are the consequences of that?

Yeah, so first of all, the seven ships that we had in the Persian Gulf when the hostilities broke out are now out. So we managed to take advantage of one of the sort of relatively short peace periods there to get the ships out. So we no longer have any ships that are stuck in there. So that's obviously positive and we're happy to get the ships out safely and the crew. We are not currently operating into the area for the same reason. Safety is not good enough for us to operate in the region. So we are awaiting what a peace deal could look like and then obviously waiting to see if it's sufficiently solid to regain confidence that it is safe to sail into the region. So right now we're not operating in the area and that means that we are seeing an increased traffic into nearby countries and there is definitely more overland transportation. Again it's a good example of these much more complex supply chain challenges that our customers are facing and again it typically leads to longer routes. I think on the tanker side, one thing to watch there, of course, is that the longer a lot of the world's oil production is basically shut in, then there is less oil in the market. There's also less oil to transport. So it is one of the sort of headwinds, perhaps, that could be seen in tankers here in the second half if these hostilities continue.

And a question related to this. You're also entering the second half with about 196 open tanker days and 223 open dry cargo days. How much of the guidance depends on the Strait of Hormuz staying open and what happens to the reins if it closes again?

That is a very, very difficult question to answer, because what is open and what is closed? I think actually in dry cargo, we probably see that the straight of home moves will not have a huge impact, because there are both vessels getting trapped and cargoes not moving. So I don't think that will have a big impact. But on the tanker side, we have seen that this open up, closing, open and closing actually has a tendency to continue to create noise and disruption in trade flows. So that could have a positive effect on tanker forward rates or spot rates and therefore add some extra dollars to the earnings going forward. But it's incredibly hard to project.

Thank you. And the question related to dry cargo is the continued improvement we began to see in the previous quarter still being confirmed? And can you generally put some words on your expectation and forecast for dry cargo over the coming years? Are we facing a really good period ahead, as is being suggested in several places in the market and with other companies?

Yeah, so if I can touch a little bit upon the market in dry cargo. We do actually think that the strong market to some extent will continue, so we expect rates similar to 2026, but maybe slightly lower. So demand actually continues to develop quite positively and we see perhaps a little movement away from the big commodities like iron ore and bauxite over to the more minor baux that will be good for the handy size and multipurpose vessels. So that continues to develop quite well. And then, as I also mentioned during the update, the order book and dry is growing, but it's actually not accelerating to the extent that it's something to be super worried about. As I said, there are also a lot of old ships, and what typically happens is that when these new buildings arrive in the market, depressing rates, people will scrap the old ships, and then actually there's room for rates to improve again. So I think it's fair to say we have a constructive view on the future in dry cargo. And based on this, we have also said in our commenting on the guidance that in dry we do expect gradual improvement going forward. So one example is this vessel repositioning that we talked about where we moved vessels from the Pacific into the Atlantic in expectation of higher rates. and that has impacted positively in Q2 and we expect it to continue to impact positively for the rest of the year.

Thank you. And then a question related to China. Can you give a specific update on how voyages and business related to China are developing its activity? High, low, rising, falling? What do you expect from the market over the next year or so?

I can say a few words just on China. We continue to see relatively weak inland or domestic demand in the Chinese economy. But nevertheless, China continues to import vast volumes of raw materials. and we see that coming out in terms of increased exports. I think steel production is a great example. We've seen a significant decline in property, you know, building, construction in China and you would normally expect that would impact steel production Very negatively, but actually steel production has been relatively resilient, but that is then backed by increased manufacturing and then obviously also steel exports, especially here in the second quarter, we've seen a significant increase again in Chinese steel exports, predominantly to the rest of Asia. So, iron ore is another example, obviously a commodity used for steel production, that despite that the steel production in China is pretty stable, not really growing, we have seen increased iron ore imports. We've also seen a little bit of inventory building, both on iron ore and aluminium, which is related to bauxite imports that have also been very strong in China. China has actually not been importing that much coal. When coal prices move up, China tends to step out, and with the Hormuz hostilities, we've seen other Asian countries, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan as examples, stepping in and then buying coal. But I would say that it's a bit of a mixed picture on China. I think overall, I think it's fair to say that with the weakness we've seen in the Chinese domestic economy now for some years, the weakness also in steel demand, I think most shipping analysts would have expected more headwinds on Chinese commodity imports, and that we have not seen. There is still strong import and now actually importing a lot of soybeans also from both US and South America. So China is still going despite the sort of relatively weakness we see in the economy there.

Thank you. And a question on OPEC. How much OPEC rise are being experienced over the year, if any?

In terms of OPEX on own vessels, I believe there is still some inflation, I would say around 3-4%, so nothing out of the ordinary.

Thank you. And then a question on your number of vessels. You have added 20 vessels to the core fleet this year while selling nine. This is a net expansion into a market where you also says values are at the top. Why is buying at this level consistent with a company that built its reputation on selling into strength?

Well, I think that is a good question. So we are clearly realizing a lot of profits on asset sales. This is both ships that we own and where we have purchase options that we can exercise and then sell the vessels. Where we are selling is more in these what we consider more commoditized and more closer to sort of peak cycle levels. So MR tankers is one example. Cape size ships could be another one. And this is where we have been selling capacity. So that is more market driven. Fundamentally, we still actually believe in a good outlook for dry cargo, as we have explained. So it's not that we necessarily want to move out of that dry cargo exposure just yet, but we are moving it into the segments where we, in addition to the market exposure, also have what we call this base margin, the ability to generate additional margins on top of just the market development. And that typically is on the smaller vessels where we carry more complex cargoes. And that's why you're seeing this movement from the larger vessels and then into the smaller vessels. But we retain a lot of upside. We have still a lot of purchase options also still on Cape size and MR. So it should not be seen as a big move to move out of those segments in terms of the market exposure. But we think it's prudent to take profits along the way. We've seen strong increases just under 30% year-on-year asset price increases on Cape Science and on MR tankers. And we like to pocket some of that. And I think historically, when you look over the last five years, one of the reasons why we have this industry high return on invested capital is the fact that we are not just buying and holding We are actively selling and taking these opportunities to capture the profits along the way. And that is what we're doing now on some of the MRs and Cape size ships. But we certainly don't think that the dry cargo market is is entering into a weak period but we are a little bit more concerned on Cape size much higher order book relative to the smaller vessels so we're just moving within the segment interest into ship types we believe have better upside from from current levels thank you and we'll just do a couple of last questions before we finalize there's a question here on related to the cash flow and net profit was around

101 million US dollars but operating cash flow only 30.6 million US dollars with free cash flow being negative at 126.4 million US dollars. What exactly absorbed the US dollar 107.1 million in working capital and when does it come back?

Very relevant question. So if you look into the cash flow statements, you will see cash from operations being around 30 million, as you say, for Q2. But actually, when you look at the full half year, cash from operations was actually over $100 million. So what happens is really timing differences between whether these cash flows are just in Q1 or in Q2 or where they specifically arrive. Then I would say there is some underlying tendency for higher working capital based on two factors. One is that we are growing our activity levels and the other is that oil prices are quite high and that actually costs cash flow. When you start up new vessels, you have to buy the bunkers on board. which then you can see that the inventory in the balance sheet is growing. These are oil inventories aboard the ships which are growing along with prices and activity levels. So that is the reason and so cash flow will come back as soon as we sort of start operating the ships or re-delivering the ships when they are done with their charter period.

Thank you. And then a question related to CAPEX and payout policy. Capital expenditures of US$295 million is committed through 2028, while the payout policy stays at a minimum of half of profit. Which one gives way in a weak year?

We are committed to maintaining our dividend policy of minimum 50%. So it would have to be a very bad year before we sort of abandoned that. So we stick to that.

And then a question on your fleet also, how much of your fleet is spot versus time charter? And what is your strategy going forward?

Yeah, so if we start on the tanker side, we actually do release as part of our information pack for the quarterly results, we do release what we call our capacity cover table. And there you will see that on the tanker side, we have large cover. We have over the next three years on average over 80% covered already of that capacity. So here clearly our strategy is to log in earnings, take advantage of the strong markets, get more visibility into a segment where market development is primarily driven by geopolitics right now. And of course also not forgetting that the order book for tanker vessels is now for the total segment including crude is now at 25% of the current fleet. So that just gives us some downside protection on the tanker side. On the dry cargo side, Martin mentioned earlier, the strategy is to be relatively high covered on the larger vessels. Right now, there are opportunities to log in good profits on that part of the fleet, but then stay relatively open on the smaller vessels where, first of all, those larger vessels are more exposed towards China. typically carrying bauxite iron ore you know commodities that are mainly focused on China whereas the smaller vessels tend to be more broadly exposed to world GDP and therefore a little bit less risky perhaps and obviously exposed to the cargo types that are more complex where we are not just relying on the market development but also have this ability to add some operating margin that we call base margin on top of those market driven rates. So that's the overriding strategy. Then, of course, we stay agile. Like in every quarter, if there are opportunities for us to... We have also added a shorter term MR tonnage when we see opportunities to do that. So that's what we look at in the operating units to add value along the way. But in the broad, bigger picture, You should expect us to be de-risking the more commoditized vessel types, the larger dry bulk and MR tankers, and then building more exposure towards the vessel types that have this sort of base margin. And here, just to add that, we have now built a fleet of 25 MPP new buildings. that will start to deliver at the end of this year and then through to 2029. And we're really looking forward to get these ships because they carry a lot of cargo types that are in high demand right now. Windmill blades, batteries, but also construction for the oil industry. And here again, the higher oil prices supporting maintenance and and development in the oil and gas industry. So we have high expectations on that part of the fleet as that deliver.

Thank you. And then one final question here, looking a little bit into the future. What is the most important things you're focused on when you look ahead for D&S Nuance business over the next six to 12 months?

Yeah, I can start and say that this turnaround in dry is important to us because this has been the part of our business where we have had a lot of volatility in our earnings. So actually, if you look at our earnings over the last five years in dry cargo, they have been fantastic. But we've had some extraordinary good years and then some pretty disappointing years in terms of also looking at our own performance. So we like the average, but we don't like the volatility. So a big part of our strategy is to focus on having more stable earnings while, of course, maintaining the same long term high average on the Thank you. That was the last question for today. I'll leave the word to management for a final remark. Okay, well, thank you very much. And first of all, thank you for all the great questions. I think we sort of got around the entire business and our segments and our markets and our business. So I appreciate the interest and the good questions. And we look forward to connecting again when we present the Q3 results later this year.

Thank you.