ENCE Energía y Celulosa, S.A.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the NCES third quarter 2021 results presentation. I now hand over to Mr. Ignacio Colmenares, Executive Chairman and Alfredo Abello, CFO. Gentlemen, please go ahead.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining NCES third quarter 2021 results conference call. Our CFO, Alfredo Abello, and our head of IR, Alberto Valdez, are also connected. After the presentation, we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have. Let's start with slide three, where we summarize the business highlights in the first nine months of the year. Pulse prices have recovered strongly. They are trading at $1,140 per ton since July, boosting the pulse business operating margin. At the same time, the reduction in conversion costs coupled with savings in overhead expenses, have offset the impact of raw materials inflation during the first nine months. Pulse production increased by 2% in this period, while cash cost was maintained at 377 euros per tonne. On the other hand, renewable energy sales increased by 6% on a like-for-like basis, fuelled by the two new biomass plants commissioned last year, which have offset the shutdown of the worldwide 50 megawatt plants during the second and third quarters. As a result, group EBITDA before the impact of hedges rose to 63 million in the third quarter and to 134 million in the first nine months of the year, more than doubling its comparable EBITDA in the same period of last year. Our underlying business would have shown a positive net income of 40 million in the first nine months, excluding one of hedges signaled in 2020 during the pandemic and the impacts of the ruling of the Pontevedra concession. Strong cash generation in the period allowed us to reduce our net debt position by 16 million, despite reducing the usage of factoring facilities by 19 million and settling carryover payments for another 49 million. Our liquidity position is very strong. We have a cash balance of 375 million at the end of the period after the prepayment of 115 million of bilateral loans and the successful refinancing of another 210 million in the PAL business. Finally, it is important to highlight that we have been ranked as the leading sustainability player in the global palm market according to the most recent study by Sustainalytics. Let's move now to slide 4, which shows the strong palm price recovery this year. Gross peak prices in Europe have been trending at $1,140 per tonne since July. Our net selling price improved by 60% year-on-year in the third quarter and by 27% in the first nine months, boosting the part-business operating margin. We are witnessing a decoupling between European and Chinese markets due to the logistic constraints that could last for several more months. In the following slide, number five, we summarize our views on pulp demand and supply balance in the coming years. We expect pulp demand to outgrow supply during the next four years, supporting a relatively tight market. The tissue and hygiene product segment already account for 55% of global pulp demand, and we expect it to continue growing at around 4% annually driven by urban population growth and improving living standards in emerging countries, together with enhanced post-pandemic consumption habits. Packaging and speciality segments account for 25% of global power demand, and we expect their growth to accelerate to around 3% as a result of economic recovery, single-use plastic substitution, and lower recycled fiber availability. On the other hand, the printing and writing segment now only accounts for the remaining 20% of global pipe demand. Consumption fell 16% in 2020 and should remain at this low level over the next two or three years. On the supply side, apart from Arauco and Brazil projects in 2022, there is only the UPM project in 2023 and no more until the SUSANO, METSE and CNPC projects. We have not yet started construction, planned to start by 2024. Note that Brazil has stated that its ramp-up will be very progressive during the next couple of years and that most of its pulp will be used internally to feed Royal Golden Eagle Group paper and viscous capacity expansions in Asia. Moreover, Arauco has delayed the start of its MAPA project until the second quarter of next year. Moving now to slide number six, you can see the positive operating performance of the pulp business during the first nine months of the year. Pulp production increased by 19% compared to the third quarter of last year, when both bio-meats were idled for maintenance work. In the first nine months, pulp production increased by 2%, thanks to the capacity we added at the end of 2019. At the same time, the reduction in conversion costs, coupled with savings in overhead expenses, allowed us to offset the impact of raw material inflation during the first nine months, maintaining our cash costs for the period at $377 Cash costs in the third quarter increased to $380 per ton, mainly due to higher wood costs, as anticipated in our latest result presentation. As you know, our wood cost is partially linked to the PIX price performance, which is trading at its annual maximum. We are bringing wood from our plantations in southern Spain and we will import 90,000 tons of wood to mitigate the temporary reduction in eucalyptus harvesting capacity due to the extraordinary demand for pine wood. Looking forward to the fourth quarter, you should expect a cash cost of around 416 euro per ton, mainly due to the higher inflation in raw material prices, mainly in wood, gas and chemicals. Let's now look at our pulp sales on slide 7. Pulp sales in the first nine months reached 757,000 tons, in line with those of the same period last year. Over 90% of these sales went to the European market, where our customers benefited from ENCE's unique wide portfolio of sustainable products and shorter delivery times. Our differentiated products accounted for 15% of our pulp sales in the first nine months, compared to 9% in the same period of last year. These products are more sustainable and are well adapted to replace plastic and softwood pulp. They also provide higher margins. Turning to slide number eight, you can see the operating performance of our renewable energy business. The volume of our energy sales during the first nine months increased by 6% on a like-for-like basis. Higher contributions from the two new plants commissioned during the first quarter of 2020 and from the Welba 41 MW plant were partially offset by the Welba 50 MW shutdown during the second and third quarters. This plant has been back online now since mid-October. In the other hand, the average sales price decreased by 10% year-on-year despite increasing energy prices. This was caused by the combined effect of the regulatory collar on energy prices together with the impact of fixed price contracts. However, note that from a cash flow perspective, the regulatory collar is a non-cash provision, ensuring higher amount of operating cash flow in 2021. Finally, remodernization on investment decreased by 5% in the first nine months on a like-for-like basis due to the shutdown of Welba 50 megawatt plant. In the next slide, number nine, you can see our renewable energy pipeline of 513 megawatts. All of them have the grid connection permits and locations secured. and the administrative processing is expected to be completed in the coming quarters. We are now considering rotating our portfolio of 373 megawatts of PV projects if its current market valuation offers a better opportunity to create value for our shareholders. The selling process is still at an early phase and no negotiations have yet begun with potential interest investors. On the other hand, We will participate in the next biomass options with our portfolio, and we will continue developing new projects, including PV, to further expand our renewable energy business in the coming years. I will now invite Alfredo to review the financial figures in more detail.

Thank you, Ignacio. As you can see in the following slide, number 10, ENCE showed a very strong everyday recovery in the first nine months of the year fueled by the pulp business. Our pulp business EBTA before hedging impacts improved from 17 up to 100 million euros driven by the strong recovery in pulp prices. Note that this figure already includes the non-cash accounting provision of the regulatory quarter of the energy sales coming from our link nine co-generations at each biomass. This regulatory quarter adjusted down the EBTA by 11 million euros during the third quarter. Pulp hedges arranged last year in the very uncertain environment caused by the pandemic had an negative impact of 31 million euros, which were partially upset by the positive impact of 3 million coming from the ongoing FX hedging program. After hedges and including the regulatory color adjustment, our pulp business EBITDA increased up to 71 million euros, 10 times higher than in the same period of 2020. Focusing now in our renewable energy business, its EBITDA before hedges also increased by 21% year-on-year on a like-for-like basis, excluding the Puerto Vallano CSP plant sold last December. This improvement was driven by the higher energy volumes and sales prices. We should note that our energy sales prices are affected by two factors. On one hand, the regulatory color, which shows a non-cash downside adjustment of 18 million euros in the period, And on the other hand, the fixed price selling contracts signed back in 2020 under the pandemic environment, we had a negative impact of 20 million euros in the nine-month period. After taking into account all these factors, our Renewal Energy Business EBITDA reached 14 million euros. With such a strong EBITDA recovery, we would have shown a positive net income of 40 million euros in the first nine months of the year, excluding one of hedges and accounting consequences of the court ruling on the Ponte Vedra concession, which amounted to 196 million euros and that were registered in the previous quarter. As you can see in the following slide, number 11, cash flow generation was strong the first nine months of the year. The cash flow before growth capex doubled to 38 million euros compared to the 19 of the same period in 2020. after a working capital increase of 26 million euros and a reduction of another 19 in the usage of factoring facilities. Just remember that although the energy revenue figure registered in our accounts is adjusted up or down by the regulatory collar in both of our businesses, this is not the case with the cash inflow coming from those sales, which is received at its full market value with no regulatory adjustment. Growth and sustainability capex for the period amounted to 49 million euros, basically related to carryover payments coming from the strategic plan investments made back in 2019. The remaining carryover payments, which amount to 22 million euros in the pulp business and to 4 million euros in the renewable energy business, will be completed in the coming months. Only standard maintenance capex for both of our businesses should be expected for next year. Net debt was reduced down to 162 million euros, including 16 million euros related to lease contracts under IFRS 16. Let's have a closer look at our net debt position in each business in the following slide number 12. Net debt in the Paul business was just 18 million euros at the end of the period. This includes 15 million euros related to lease contracts and a cash balance of 310 million euros. We have prepaid 115 million euros of bilateral loans in our PAL business after the sale last year of a minority interest in our annual energy business. In addition, during the third quarter, we successfully refinanced the business revolving credit facility, increasing its availability up to 130 million euros, as well as another 80 million euros in bilateral loans, extending all their maturities until 2020 exists. On the other hand, net debt in the renewable energy business amounted to 144 million euros at the end of the period, also with long-term maturities and a cash imbalance of 65 million euros. Turning to slide 13, let me remind you about our current hedging programs in both of our businesses. Regarding FX, our policy is to hedge up to 50% of our pub sales for up to 12 months. We have secured an average cap of 1.23 and an average floor of 1.18 for almost 50% of our dollar exposure for the remainder of 21, as well as for the first semester of 22. This program had a positive impact of 3 million euros in the first nine months. On the other hand, it could have a negative impact of 2 million during the fourth quarter if we assume an average exchange rate of 1.16 dollars per euro. Also, as said during the third quarter of last year, under a very uncertain business horizon caused by the pandemic, we decided for the first time to secure better pulp and electricity prices for 2021. When the pulp price was at $680 per ton, we secured an average price of $773 for 24% of our expected pulp sales in 2021. These hedges had a negative impact of 31 million euros in the first nine months, and we still made another 21 for the fourth quarter, assuming an average price of 1,140. We also secured an average price of 44 euros per hour for 50% of our expected renewable energy sales in 2021 compared with an average electricity price of 34 in 2020. These hedges had a negative impact of 20 million in the first nine months, and we estimate another 31 for the fourth quarter, assuming an extraordinarily high average full price of 200 euros mega hour. I will now return the lead of this presentation back to our chairman for the final slides.

Thank you, Alfredo. Moving now to slide number 14, I would like to mention the highlights of our sustainability performance. As you know, I believe that companies that care for the environment, for the staff and for the communities, and companies with a strong corporate governance are more competitive. ENCE is already at the forefront in sustainable forestry, in the circular economy, in social commitment, in gender equality, and in corporate governance. Our best practices have been recognized by independent agencies such as MSCI, FTSE for Good or Sustainalytics, which in its latest study ranks ENCE as the most sustainable player in the global pulp market. I would like to highlight the following achievements in the first nine months of 2021. Firstly, we have been pioneers in Europe in certifying the sustainability of the biomass we use as a fuel, thus ensuring our compliance with the sustainability criteria set out in the Red II Renewable Directive. Four of our plants have already been certified. Secondly, we have continued to improve all our safety indicators, which are already 10 times better than the average for the industry in Spain. Thirdly, the rigorous application of ENSES protocol against COVID-19 has enabled us to continue operating safely and to carry out the annual maintenance shutdowns of our main production centers without any COVID infections. Fourthly, we have continued to reduce the odor of both part bio-meals, which is already below one minute per day. And finally, in our board of directors, we have increased both the percentage of female representation, which is now up to almost 40%, and also the percentage of independent directors. To conclude this presentation, I would like to emphasize the following key messages. 2021 will be a positive year for ENFE in terms of cash flow generation, despite the pump and energy price hedges closed exceptionally in 2020. We would have returned to net profits if it weren't for the accounting impact of the national court ruling on the Pontevedra concession. We have appealed to the Supreme Court against this resolution. We expect the court to decide whether or not to accept our appeal during the first half of 2022. In the meantime, we are focused on cost control, including the sales of our differentiated products, and on developing our renewable energy business. As you know, we don't have any pulp or energy hedges for 2022. Thank you. I will be pleased to hear any questions you may have.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Q&A session starts now. If you wish to ask a question, please press 01 on your telephone keypad. You will have the opportunity to make all the questions that you may have. In order to keep it as clear as possible, we kindly ask you to make one question at a time instead of stating multiple questions to our speakers. Thank you. The first question comes from Alberto Espelotin from JB Capital. Please go ahead.

Good morning, and thank you for taking my questions. I have three. If I might, I will do them one at a time. First, do you keep your volumes target of 1,050K for a full year? And could you please repeat the gas cost target for Q21?

Thank you very much, Alberto. We expect bulb sales in the fourth quarter of around 260,000 tons and the total amount of 1,020,000 tons in 2021, above last year's sales and slightly below our initial forecast. The figure is slightly below our target for the year, mainly because of the temporary reduction in eucalyptus harvesting capacity. Regarding our cash cost guidance, I would like to give you a couple of figures. Well, as you know, our cash cost in third quarter has been 380 euros per tonne. We expect, unfortunately, a cash cost of around 416 for the fourth quarter. Wood, gas, chemicals, due to the energy increase, are affecting us. And we expect to finish the year with an average cash cost of 388 euros per ton. Thank you very much, Alberto.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. And then... Some questions on the same topic. First, what impact do you expect from the collar on Q4 2021? And on this note, the Ecological Transition Minister opened the possibility of anticipating payments of regulatory liabilities. Given the evolution of pool prices above the upper limit of regulatory bonding mechanism, you should be creating a regulatory liability. If you need to settle it in the end of the year, what would be the impact for you in terms of debt and cash flow?

Well, first of all, there was a meeting yesterday between all the renewable associations and the Vice President of the government, Minister of Ecological Transition. I would say that it was a friendly meeting where the Vice President was asking the renewable sector to support the government in trying to reduce the energy for the poor people and for the industry intensive in energy. She asked for ideas. The associations are working on that and we will give ideas at the beginning of next week. But I have to point out one thing which is very important. What the Vice President said from the beginning was that She was not contemplating at all any restrictive measures. Then 2021 is gone. And just as an idea, she was saying, why couldn't we, the renewable industry, sell in auctions at a price between 50 and 60 euros per megawatt hour to those two segments of population? The poor people and the and the intensive in energy industry. And we will get on top of that the RO and the RI we have. Then, well, according to this first meeting is too soon to have any conclusion. But I think that we don't have, we are not going to have any problem for that, not for 2020. You know that during 2021, it's very difficult to explain that by the phone, but the fact that the pool is very high, is higher than the regulated price of the pool, is affecting us positively because we are invoicing a higher amount of money. But we are not recognizing all this amount of money in our accounts. That's the provision of the COLA. And the other effect on the future is that this money we had get in advance will be against the future distribution of the biomass power plants in the future. but it is well it is a dream we are getting money before we expect it and we have the money in our cash and we are we are on the accounts but putting a provision for this for this amount of money because the ri on the future is going to be lower but coming back to your question well uh we think that what the associations will agree on the next weeks with the Minister is not going to affect our company nor the balance of the other renewables companies. Maybe we are not going to have so high collar on the next year, in 2022, because the price we are going to sell will be more adjusted to the regulatory price of the pool. That is the only effect. I don't know if Alfredo or Alberto, you want to say something else, because it's a bit complicated to explain all that on the phone.

Just to reinforce the two main topics that our chairman has stated. Number one, it's not a retroactive measure. It will only be temporary. And number two, They assure the return on the investment for the future. Nothing else.

Yeah, let's say that today we are all having... It's a bit difficult to understand. We are having a higher return on the investment because we are invoicing and getting the money at the market full price. We are adjusting in our accounts. against the regulated pool price, but we have the money in our hands in advance. Well, I suppose they don't want that to happen again in 2022, but that is extraordinary, and it's normal what they want. Let's say that for the fourth quarter... 2021 with a market price of the energy expected for the balance of the fourth quarter of 200 euros megawatt hour, which is extraordinary, but it is what it is. The additional turnover in the energy business for us would be 62 million on top of the regulated pool price. We will account and get in our pocket 18 million, and we will, on top of that, get in our pocket 44 million, but we will provision them as a regulatory collar. And in the past business, the additional turnover on the fourth quarter at this price of 200 euro megawatt hour is going to be 32 million, and we would provision 12 million for the regulatory collar. then it's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's an extraordinary thing. We are taking money this year, a lot of money in advance, roughly 90 million euros. And that is the RIs of our biomass power plants for the next years. Well, that is extraordinary. It's very good, but it's not normal. And what the government wants is the renewable industry to support the industry, to support the poor people, and then to come back on an agreement to what is normal according to the regulation. 7.1% of IR. Sorry, 7.4% of IR.

Thank you. Understood, thank you. And just on Ponte Vedra, could you please give us some color on the proposal of extending the port of Marin to include the land occupied by your fault mill in Ponte Vedra? Is this a likely scenario?

Well, I think it's a difficult scenario because you need two approvals. You need the approval of the Ministry of Transport, who is the big boss of the port of Marin, and you need the approval of the Ministry of Transición Ecológica, then the key of this authorization is in the hands of the government and we all know what the government thinks. And on top of that, if at the end the ruling of the Audiencia Nacional is firm, either because the Tribunal Supremo doesn't accept the appeal or because we lose the appeal, it is not possible that to do a thing against this rule by an administrative act, then we think it's quite difficult.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Roberto.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, just a reminder, in order to ask a question, please press 01 on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Jaime Escribano from Banco Santander. Please go ahead.

Hi, good afternoon. So a few questions from my side. I will go one by one. The first one regarding the solar portfolio that you are starting to sell. My question would be what is the strategic rationale behind this? And would it not be better, for example, to win some auctions or to close some PPAs in this portfolio of solar PV and then sell it for more money? Is this not more worth it for you? And I'm basically building on why you didn't attend to the last auction with these megawatts. Would they not be more valuable?

Well, we have launched, Jaime, a comparative process to evaluate possible bids for this portfolio. And nothing has been yet decided. This portfolio, as you know, comprises five projects located in excellent areas with the highest solar irradiation rates in Spain. And all of them have all the grid connection permits, the locations are secured, and the administrative process is going on. Strategic fit. Well, today there are not too many PV projects with connection permits, with land in the good areas. This scarcity, as you know, is driving the price for these PV projects higher than a few months ago. We want to find out if the current market valuation for our PV pipeline is higher than the present value of developing it, what you were just asking. But we need to know at which price we could sell those assets. And take into account that we are an industrial player with a higher required return and more conservative leverage policies than other kinds of players. Then we want to see if there is higher value for our shareholders in selling those PV projects as they are now or to continue developing it. And we will take the decision on the following weeks. In any case, our strategy remains expanding our renewable energy business in Spain. With that aim, we will participate in the next biomass auctions and we will continue developing new projects, including PV. Thank you, Jaime.

Okay, thank you very much. My second question is regarding pulp outlook in China. There seem to be some developments in terms of Chinese paper prices going up because of downtimes, and I would like to understand what is your view if this could give some support to pulp prices in China, or do you see them going further down? Yeah, this would be my second question.

Yeah, thank you for your question, Jaime. Well, first of all, you know that we are not present in China. Then everything I will tell you is what I'm reading and is the same information you can read. Well, what we know is that there is a decoupling between China and Europe because of the logistic constraints. What is happening in China has nothing to do with what is happening in Europe. In Europe, the supply of pulp is tight. And in Europe, the supply of paper is extremely tight. Two days ago, La Vanguardia, a normal periodical from Barcelona, the second most important news was that the scarcity of paper for printing and for books in Spain. Then today, our customers in Europe are securing the procurement of biomass. They are not talking about prices. They are not talking about contracts for next year. They are securing the volumes. Meanwhile, in China, with this energy crisis and these stoppages in many industries, well, it's affecting the consumption. Prices have been going down since July, and it seems, as you are saying, that prices have started To rebound from some paper great today, we have to wait to see what happens. Normally, and following the rules of this industry, after these reductions in prices in China and reductions in consumption, normally the price stabilizes and the price goes up again. But we have to wait and see. Thank you, Jaime.

Okay. Thank you very much. And could you elaborate a little bit more on what's going on with, you were talking about the eucalyptus scarcity in this year's harvest, and what does this relate with the pine wood, which I didn't get it, why the pine is important and why this is affecting the scarcity of eucalyptus?

Yes, very important question. The price of wood panels has doubled this year. The main reason is that everybody, after COVID, is rebuilding the kitchens and the furniture at home. Not in Spain, worldwide. And then the wood panels, who are made with pine, have doubled the price this year. And the price of the pine has increased a lot all around the world, in Spain too. You have to understand how the industry is in Spain, in the northwest of Spain, where you have pine and you have eucalyptus. The companies who are buying to the owners the standing wood have a portfolio, and then they are managing the harvesting and they are selling the wood, either pine or eucalyptus. And today, as they bought pine at normal prices a few months ago, and they are able to sell this pine at extremely high prices, they are putting all the resources for harvesting on the pine. And today, we don't have any difficulties in buying eucalyptus. We have difficulties in harvesting all the eucalyptus we have bought. Because of that, and to mitigate this temporary reduction in eucalyptus harvesting capacity, we are bringing wood from our own plantations in southern Spain and we are also importing, in the second half of the year, 90,000 tons from abroad. These extraordinary measures are temporary and are increasing our wood cost by 26 euros per ton, 26 on the fourth quarter, 21. And it's also affecting production. We prefer to temporarily lose some pulp production rather than tensioning further the eucalyptus price. If we further increase eucalyptus prices today, it will be difficult to lower them afterwards. As you know, the Iberian Peninsula, Spain and Portugal, have a deficit of eucalyptus. We normally don't import, but remember that our Portuguese competitors are forced to import huge quantities of eucalyptus from Latin America. Which means that if we increase the price of eucalyptus in order to get eucalyptus harvested, it will be quite difficult to reduce this price in the future. That's why we have chosen to stabilize the price of the eucalyptus in the northwest of Spain. We are just increasing according to the contract, the peak price, part of it. And we are moving from Huelva, Eucalyptus, which is more expensive because it has a lot of transport costs, and we have imported 90,000 tons from abroad. Then the average cost of the wood in the cost of the pulp is increased, will be increased on the fourth quarter by 26 euros per ton, but with two segments. The normal volume from the Northwest stable prices, and we have a huge increase on this extra volume coming from Huelva and coming from South Africa, which is extraordinary. Thank you, Jaime.

Okay, and do you think that this is going to be temporary in Q4, or could this also extend to the first half of next year or Q1 next year?

No, we think it's all this effect on the raw materials worldwide. Who knows what is going to happen? The most probable is that at least only the first half of the next year it may continue. We are, with our regular suppliers, we are supporting them in order to increase the capacity of harvesting, but it takes several months because they have to buy new machines. And as with any kind of equipment, it's difficult to buy any kind of equipment today. uh new equipment we are finding old equipment we are repairing it we are increasing the capacity of harvesting then we think that this scarcity will continue during the first half of next year because the high prices of the pine will continue but month by month we will be able to harvest more and more eucalyptus thank you okay thank you and last question sorry for for this

Yeah, my last question is regarding, I don't know if you can provide some ABDA guidance for 2021, given that there is only one queue and with all the impacts that you have been talking about, hedges and so on. I mean, I can throw a number and maybe you can tell me if it's more or less correct, but would it make sense with all the impacts you have mentioned, something in the range of 90 to 95 million EBDA for the full year makes sense.

Sorry Jaime, but we don't give guidance. I can give you what I told you. We think that we are going to produce during the fourth quarter, where we are losing volume, as I told you, due to this wood scarcity, we think we are going to produce 265,000 tons and we are going to sell them. We are going to produce them at a cash cost of 416 euros per ton. Well, you know the prices. You have to do your figures.

Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, and then you have provided all the hedges. Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah, the hedges, but I think it was a big surprise today for people. Do you have any questions regarding the hedges? Everything is clear?

Yeah, no, no, I think there was one slide where you quantified the impacts for Q4, so I think, yeah, no, that's why I was asking that maybe you have a figure in mind for the full year and maybe it's better, you know, to set up expectation and to, because you know better than us to make the numbers and so to guide us.

So to make sure that... We just gave operating guidance and we informed about the effect of both the hedges and the collar. The collar has no effect on the cash, which is important, but the hedges, as you know, well, we are still going to have... impact for this year. Fortunately, it's finishing. 31st of December, it's finished, forever.

Okay. Yeah, no, that's fine.

Thank you. Jaime, this is Pedro. Just two things. I think that we have given you enough data as to reach a very, very narrow figure. But in any case, I think it's important to reinforce what Ignacio has just said. I mean, HHS ends in December. There's no impact on hedging except for the FX hedging that you have in year 2022. Okay.

Yeah, and you have to take into account because it's difficult to understand, but well, an year like this year, the EBITDA is maybe not the good KPI. The operating cash flow is important because we have 90 million euros of coal we have collected. They are in our pocket and they are not on the EBITDA, you know. We have in energy 60 million of coal collected and in our pockets, where we are going to have at the end of the year. And in impulse is just above 30 million euros. Then it's a lot of money.

Yeah, no, definitely. Okay, very good. Thank you.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions in the conference call. I will give back the floor to Mr. Ignacio Colmenares and Mr. Alfredo Avello. Thank you.

Well, thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. We are in contact and we have the next meeting in three months. Thank you.

Thank you.