MA Financial Group Limited

I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Julian Biggins, Joint CEO. Please go ahead.

Good morning and welcome to the FY24 result for MA Financial Group. My name is Julian Biggins, and I'm Joint CEO of the company, along with Chris Wyke, who is sitting next to me. Also in the room is company's Chief Financial Officer, Giles Boddy, and Michael Leonard, Head of Investor Relations. Let's get straight into the result and some of the key highlights on slide six. We're really pleased with the progress of the company over the last year. In FY24, we delivered gross flows into our investment strategies of $2.7 billion. This includes the $500 million subscription into the real estate credit vehicle, which was allocated in September of 2024, and $2.2 billion of gross inflows for the year. This is up 27% on the prior year. Flows were again dominated by strong growth in the domestic channel, which has been an ongoing theme for us since diversifying into this channel in 2018. MA Money's growth continues to accelerate. Its loan book increased 155% over the year to $2.1 billion and the business turned a small profit in the second half. The continued growth trajectory of MA Money is very pleasing given the investment over the years and provides another validation of how we invest to create long-term shareholder value. Finsure expanded its market share as its technology offering, coupled with a strong growth culture, continued to outperform its competitors. We believe that the divide between Finsure's offering and its competitors continues to widen, and that bodes very well for Finsure's future. Over the last 12 months, we've further diversified our asset management distribution channels meaningfully. Diversifying and growing distribution channels is a core focus as we attempt to open up new growth opportunities. Typically, new channels involve new product launches, such as the MA Credit Income Fund and the Real Estate Credit Vehicle with Warburg Pincus, where we're at final stages of closing out $1 billion of subscriptions. Next month, we'll list the MA Credit Income Fund, which offers investors a diversified exposure to our private credit offering. The significance of this fund is twofold. Firstly, it provides the group with access to the deep-listed market, including retail investors, and further diversifies our capital sources. Secondly, it provides our clients with a single fund exposure for our private credit offering. This simplifies our business from both a product offering, distribution focus and an operational perspective. MA1 is available in an unlisted format as well as providing investors access to our private credit platform as opposed to specific product. We strive to continually simplify our business. We think this is good for strategy. At the half year, we talked about the benefit of the Warburg-Pinkers partnership in validating our investment capability and materially opening doors with institutional capital. We have now experienced this benefit and whilst institutional capital takes longer to commit, we believe that our path forward is much clearer now. We remain confident that the remaining $500 million of the partnership will be committed to shortly and look forward to updating the market. All the good work of many years delivered strong second half earnings growth of 35% compared to the first half and we see a continuation of this momentum into FY25. Now turning to the following slide and some of the macro trends that we are trying to play into. On this slide, we take a step back to focus on some of the macro trends that we expect to provide significant long-term structural tailwinds. As you can see on the slide, we have a number of investments or business plans playing into these tailwinds. We think it makes sense to build businesses around those macro tarwinds and have consistently followed this philosophy over the years. We all know the strength of the Australian superannuation system and the strong tarwinds that a mandatory allocation provides for the domestic asset management sector. Whilst this is not a unique observation, it is a very significant tarwind if you can get it right. In relation to product, we've focused on defensive yield as this plays to the ageing population and the transition from investment phase to retirement phase. We also believe that products with more defensive characteristics are good for our long-term proposition. Another high conviction thematic is the Australian residential market. The investment fundamentals, supply and demand, have always been very attractive to us. Investments into this thesis are multiple, including FinShore, MA Money or our real estate credit business. We also focus on alternative assets or private asset classes. We believe an asset manager has to add significant value through origination capability, due diligence and asset management capabilities. We believe that direct sourcing origination is key to deploying capital and we've invested in a number of unique platforms that provide investors with unique access to certain asset classes. Think pubs, marinas, real estate, credit and structured finance. Private wealth in Asia and the region continues to grow very quickly. Australia is well placed to participate in this growth as we have demonstrated. the funds that have flowed to date remain a drop in a very large ocean. So turning forward to our FY26 targets and how we are tracking. These targets were first published in August 2023 at our half-year result, and we were very pleased with how the company is tracking against them. At the end of FY24, AUM sits at $10.3 billion, which was up 12% on the prior year. This excludes both the listed investment trust and the $1 billion Warburg Pincus residential partnership, which if closed and deployed would place us north of $11.5 billion. Both Finsure and MA Money are quickly growing and are on track to make their targets. The corporate advisory market is improving and we continue to expand the coverage, including the hiring of the metals and mining team last year, who have been a great addition to our platform and have well and truly hit the ground running. In early 2025, we've also added a new senior resource in the power and utility sector. As the group EBITDA margin whilst lower year-on-year at 28.4%, if adjusted for our strategic spend, would be close to 35%. When we released these targets, we had MA money on the runway, although the US private credit platform was a subsequent addition to our strategic growth initiatives. Given the specific nature of the investment spend, we view the EBITDA margin target as a measure against our mature or established businesses. and therefore believe that adjusted 35% EBITDA margin is the right one to benchmark against the 40% target. We're very focused on expense management, although equally on rewarding our most valuable asset, our people. Obviously investment spend is important and we'll continue to provide a transparent view into how much we're spending and what the opportunity is. The objective of the spend is always to create new revenue streams in the future. So the foundations are set for the next two years and we look forward to updating the market as we aim to either deliver on or outperform our targets. Our vision stretches far beyond FY26 and we are very optimistic over what can be achieved in the medium and long term. Now turning forward to some high level performance stats on page nine. The clear standout on this page is the continued growth across all the operating metrics for each of the businesses. All areas are performing very well. AUM up 12% to $10.3 billion in the period, underpinned by record gross fund inflows. Finsure's managed loan book increasing by 26% to $139 billion, over doubling what it was when we acquired the business three years ago. MA Money's loan book increasing one and a half times over the year with growth accelerating. Corporate advisory revenue up 16%, despite the average headcount being 8% lower year on year. These numbers really capture the momentum in the business which has been a consistent thread over the last three or four years. Turning forward to the financial result on slide 10. I'll leave the result with you to digest, although it's consistent with expectations and where we saw the business heading this year with strong growth in the second half after a period of consolidation and investment. Strong revenue growth was prevalent across all of our divisions, whilst investment spending supports future earnings growth impacted expenses. As I mentioned earlier, MA money generated a small profit in the second half, which bodes well for a stronger contribution in FY25. Recurring revenue continues to build, and as MA money scales, this will contribute to a stronger recurring earnings base as well. Turning forward to slide 11 and some commentary on our strategic spend. In FY24, the majority of our investment spend related to MA money and the US credit platform. We'll touch on the case study for MA money on the next slide, although clearly we're very happy with its progress this year and what the future holds. The MA brand is an important asset for the group and we continue to invest in advertising to build its profile. Establishing the listed MA credit income fund will give us broader exposure, especially in the retail and listed markets. It opens a new frontier for the group, which we think can be very meaningful. It may also lead to other products in the listed space where it makes sense. In the US, we see the opportunity as being very material, although we are obviously only at the start of the journey and need to be prudent in our investment approach. We have product approval in the US, probably three to six months behind our initial expectation, and have been approved by one of the major US retail investment platforms. We find many similarities in the US to the advised network in Australia and are following a similar approach. We have our distribution team in place and are working with some initial investors to commit to the fund and are hopeful that we'll have some early wins. We like to think that we're at or near maximum earnings headwind in FY25, and from here, revenue will start contributing, reducing the earnings headwind. The middle technology has been further integrated into our financial offering and is currently processing around $100 million per day in applications. This represents about one quarter of all loan applications which is gaining the attention of the retail banks. Remember, we do about $6 to $7 billion of applications per month via FinShore. In this regard, we have commenced project integration with our first Australian bank, which will result in middle being the customer processing technology embraced by that bank for their customers. This is a very important gate for middle, as we have meaningful discussions with a number of banks on similar fronts. It's too early to make projections, although we feel like the middle technology has passed another important milestone. Core to our DNA is innovation and growth, and sometimes that takes investment. Our principle has always been measured investment and prudent risk management, and we have a 16-year track record of delivering on this approach. Turning to the next slide and MA Money. The MA Money investment grew from the strong belief in the Australian residential market and our unique ability to leverage capital from the asset management business alongside distribution and data from FinShore. The investment aligns with our approach of identifying large addressable markets where we have capability or edge that can differentiate us from the competition, which provides a path to establishing a sustainable, valuable business. The numbers on this page tell the story of MA Money as it went through trough earnings in second half 23 before revenue started to contribute and offset the initial investment. This is how every story starts, including our founding, the establishment of MA asset management, building a private credit business or diversifying our distribution base domestically. In the US, we believe we are through the front end investment phase and revenue will start offsetting the cost base as we move forward. For MA money, we are well and truly through the model acceptance phase, including product demand from consumers. The strategy moves into a scaling phase and we expect to see the benefit of that turn into material earnings over the coming two years and beyond. MA money is one of many stories that have followed this path at MA and demonstrates our ability to identify opportunities and build meaningful businesses over time. Now turning forward to slide 13. This slide shows that after a period of consolidation and investment, our financial metrics are starting to materially grow again. The skew to the second half is expected to be present in FY25 due to the seasonality in our business and the investment into the US private credit platform being front-ended. Turning forward to slide 14 and some quick highlights from the division. As I've mentioned, asset management flows continue to be strong, underpinned by performing investment strategies across private credit and increasing interest in real estate. Net flows are up 3% over the year as we dispose of a number of assets and a greater portion of our AOM is in open-ended liquid strategies, which resulted in higher redemption rates. These numbers exclude the $500 million subscription for the real estate credit partnership that we received in FY24 from Warburg Pincus. Recurring margin increased into the second half to 161 basis points, largely reflecting a skew in the second half in terms of real estate credit deployment. The importance of diversifying our distribution channels should not be underestimated when you consider the growth options for the group. Further opening up the institutional channel with the establishment of the Warburg Pincus partnership and accessing the listed ASX market are important milestones. In lending and technology, MA money loan bulk growth accelerated through the year. We're very excited about MA money, although I'm mindful of how competitive the residential loan market is and how market conditions can change quickly. NIM improved to 1.3%, which is consistent with expectations. We'll continue to balance loan growth with NIM, and depending on the opportunity, may flex up or down. Finsure continues to grow market share, adding 600 brokers to its platform, taking the total count to 3,746 brokers. It's been a fantastic continuation of growth for Finsure as it dominates the growing residential broker market. Corporate advisory had a good year in difficult market conditions with revenue up 16% despite a decrease in headcount. The corporate advisory result was largely underpinned by M&A activity and capital solutions advice with ECM activity improving off a very low base. In summary, all divisions delivered very strong results in an uncertain market and the strength of the diversified business model is evident here where they work together for the greater good. Turning the post balance date performance on slide 16. It's been an exceptional start to FY25 with gross inflows of over 600 million in the first seven weeks of the year. We've convinced marketing the US private credit fund in the US and are hopeful of some early wins. The hospitality business has gone from strength to strength with the redemption queue now cleared Asset level performance being very strong, underpinning 25% growth in distributions for Red Cape investors over the last 12 months. The performance of this fund through a very tough period is something we are proud of, and again reflects our proactive nature to deal with markets as they change. Very few real estate-backed funds could claim that they have managed the interest rate cycle as well as Red Cape, and we have put growth back on the agenda for this fund. In lending and technology, growth momentum continues for both Finsure and MA Money. As announced last week, we closed a $700 million RMBS public term issuance, which was priced very competitively, which reflects the quality of the loan book and MA money platform. In corporate advisory, we've started the year well, although it's very early days. We recently undertook the $290 million capital raising on behalf of GDG and concluded the accolade transaction with Pernod Winemakers. We're looking to hire in this business selectively and only yesterday announced the commencement of an NB to cover power and utilities. Whilst we're positive about the advisory pipeline, market conditions remain variable and timeframes elongated to close out deals. Turning forward to slide 17 and some commentary on the outlook. We continue to see growth in our flows, especially with new markets or channels opening up for us. Our recurring margin is expected to improve in FY25 to around the second half FY24 run rate. Transaction-based revenue remain uncertain and below trend, especially performance fees. In relation to the Warburg-Pinkers partnership, we're in very progressed discussions with a number of institutional investors that represent in excess of the remaining 500 million of the initial target. We're confident of this being achieved shortly and are well-progressed in regard to commencing capital deployment. We expect MA money to continue on its path to 15 to 20 mil of NPAT in FY26. although the investment remains front-ended and therefore growth in FY25 will not be linear. We continue to invest in Finsure with a focus on technology, which we believe differentiates us from the competitors. We're continually looking at this space through a technology lens, including the application of middle, our automated loan processing platform. In corporate advisory, consistent with the past, we look for selective hires where we can find high quality bankers that can be effective in our platform. Strategic investment spend is expected to reduce to $10 million in FY25 from $13 million last year. Approximately $8 million of this is earmarked for the US private credit platform, where we've largely put the infrastructure in place to raise funds. And with the fund now approved for distribution, the path ahead is securing commitments for the fund. As we've talked about previously, we believe the US is a very large opportunity for MA Financial. So to summarise our outlook, we believe that the company continues to gain momentum in the verticals it has chosen to specialise in, and every year that passes strengthens our market position. This bodes well for the future performance of MA Financial and its shareholders. The momentum in the numbers is a function of the quality of the people in the business delivering on a clear strategy that builds long-term sustainable value. I'll now jump forward to a few important slides before opening the call up for questions. On slide 22 we talk to AUM growth. The only call out on this slide is that our AUM today would be around $11 billion if we included the MA credit income fund and the $500 million Warburg Pincus allocation to the real estate credit vehicle. Sitting here today at around $11 billion and the breadth of our products and distribution channels provides us with great confidence in hitting our FY26 AUM target of $15 billion. Turning forward to slide 23. The numbers on this page demonstrate that we have continued to diversify our distribution channels and product offering. The $2.7 billion of gross capital raised, including the $500 million subscription to the real estate credit vehicle, reflects a very strong year for our distribution teams. The allocation to private credit is not surprising, given the strength of demand for that product and our market-leading position. As I have mentioned in the past, the ability to originate good deals is the key to sustaining this momentum long-term. As you would have seen in the press, there are definitely deployment pressures in the real estate credit market, and maintaining robust and prudent underwriting decisions is key to the long-term performance of that business. Our Marina strategy has continued to attract capital through the year, and we're probably not too far off being fully funded for that strategy. The Growth Ventures team continues to attract investors into the Sustainable Future Fund, which is a tech-led credit investment strategy. The fund currently has $135 million invested and we see this continuing to gain momentum with investors. In regards to redemptions, the middle of FY24 saw a peak in liquidity requests, and we've seen this ease somewhat into the back end of FY24. Notwithstanding this, net flows as a percentage of gross flows are around 60% at the moment, which is slightly better than the 50% at June, although slightly lower than the 70% we were tracking at before the growth of our private credit strategies accelerated. we see the 60% ratio as more normalized. Our distribution team is working really well together across our product classes. Now turning forward to lending and technology with our first stock being Finsure on slide 32. The Finsure business keeps going from strength to strength. The growth in the business since we acquired it in February of 22 has been phenomenal. The market share of Finsure has expanded by over 5% since we bought the business and the loan book has more than doubled. The strong focus on customer, broker and technology is a winning formula for Finsure in a market where the end consumer continues to recognise the strength of the broker offering. As we continue to invest in technology, we expect this business to strengthen further and we're excited about the potential of middle to change the consumer experience significantly in coming years. Turning forward to slide 34 and MA money. The numbers on this slide speak for themselves. The MA Money loan book has grown from $829 million to $2.1 billion over the year. The acceleration of growth over the year has been significant, and we see this continuing into FY25. Importantly, the MA financial capital allocated to MA Money represents only 1.65% of the total loan book, which reflects our focus on a capital-light model and the ability of our asset management business to invest in MA Money products. In this regard, we are always balancing earnings and capital to achieve the optimal outcome for the platform, although one significant differentiator for us is that we have the three components being FinShore, asset management and non-bank lender under one umbrella of ownership. A very powerful ecosystem as you can see through the results. Turning finally to corporate advisory and equities on slide 36 before closing out. As I've mentioned, corporate advisory had a good year generating 16% more revenue from nearly 10% less people. The year was largely focused on private and public-to-private M&A and capital structuring mandates. These transactions tend to have longer execution timeframes than ECM transactions, although are clearly less reliant on equity market conditions. Equity capital markets were subdued although showed some improvements late in FY24 and the early parts of FY25. Turning to slide 44 where we talk to our medium and longer term investment strategies. We're a builder of valuable businesses in large addressable markets. We focus on scale and diversity in distribution channels. We diversify our source of capital and we have a strong balance sheet to support growth initiatives. Our advisory capabilities provide technical edge and our stable and experienced management team is strongly aligned with investors. In closing, all of our businesses have had great momentum and have had a great start to FY25. We continue to see strong growth coming through FY25 as a result of the significant momentum in the business and the investment in MA money starting to positively contribute to earnings. We continue to invest in the business for the future, as we have always done, and the US private credit business is our priority in the near term. We believe that we have a great portfolio of businesses that are complementary, although also provide investors with diversification in different markets. We are focused on building long-term, sustainable value for our fellow MA financial shareholders. On behalf of the management team, we're very proud and pleased with the performance, and we look forward to executing our consistent strategy in the years to come. With that, I'll hand back to the motor rider for Q&A.

Thank you. If you wish to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. If you wish to cancel your request, please press star 2. If you're on a speakerphone, please pick up the handset to ask your question. Today's first question comes from Glenn Wellam with Trim Capital. Please go ahead.

Yeah, well done on the result, guys. It's fantastic. Just wondering, a few weeks ago, Peter Dutton made some comments about bringing back the significant investor visa program. If this was to occur, are you positioned to reinvigorate this segment?

Sorry, can you just... It's Chris White here. Can you just repeat the last bit of the question again? I didn't quite...

Yeah, just wondering if the significant investment visa program was reinvigorated, are you positioned to take advantage of this?

I think the infrastructure of our firm through the last couple of years and the transition that we've had on raising capital under a non-migration basis from our international investors has been preserved within the firm. The outcome is obviously a matter for government, but the infrastructure that we have today is the same as it was by and large, if not expanded from where it was three years ago.

Great. And just a question on Red Cape. Obviously that business has done very well in a difficult trading environment. I'm just wondering how aggressive will Red Cape be with opportunities going forward? I note there's a couple of hotel operators in a little bit of difficulty at the moment. Would you look to aggressively expand?

I think Red Cape, the last couple of years, has recycled probably $300 million to $400 million of assets to both fund acquisitions and also fund a small amount of redemptions, which we cleared in January. So we've actually been quite proactive in probably studying some of our higher yielding sort of Western Corridor pubs and buying higher yielding more diversified income streams. And that's something that I think you'll see a continuation of over the next sort of call it six to nine months. In terms of, you know, how quickly we can grow will depend on the fund, which we've done re-engaged with Post and County Redemption Q. But, you know, the distributions are 25% year on year. and the underlying performance being very strong. We're quite optimistic about rate tax.

Yeah, and just one final question, if I may. Just on MA money, how aggressive do you think volumes will pick up with interest rates coming down? And do you expect it to grow at an even faster rate than it has over the last year?

So... We want everyone to remain focused on MA Money in terms of the 26th target that we've put out. With respect to the change in interest rates, I think what has been the key to MA Money's growth driver has been the products that we have and the service provision and the turnaround times which we think are market-leading. That hopefully will not change. It's really early to see if we're going to see a spike in volume or what have you if people are looking to re-evaluate their home loans post the rate reduction. Obviously, I think the overwhelming majority of lenders have passed that rate reduction on in full. So, I mean, I think the issue goes with MA money and customer turnaround times and the product set that we have is, I think, the key to its growth.

Great. Thanks, guys.

Thank you. And our next question today comes from Nick Burgess at Ord Manette. Please go ahead.

Yeah, morning, gentlemen. A couple of questions for me. Just can you remind us on the Warbeg Pinkus? So an overall billion dollar sort of ambition when you first announced it, 500 million committed. Sounds like you're hopeful another 500 will be committed in the short term. Just how should we think about the revenue phasing in in that context?

So think about it as funding larger projects that may have a development pipeline, that may have a development period of, say, three, not three years, sorry, like 24 months. And over the course of the next sort of two years, I think you'd see the billion dollars deployed. That's sort of the broad brush strokes. We actually, I think we just had our first project approved for the mandate, so it's got to start. But, yeah, it's not immediate. And then when you think about fees, I think I've said in the past that we generate 80 to 90 basis points of fees on the AUM over the journey. But, obviously, as the money gets deployed, you start growing your fee stream. So it will contribute in FY25, but it will build into FY26, be more material.

Yeah, OK. I'm just having a little bit of trouble hearing you. The line's not great, but... So just to confirm, from where we sit today, a sort of a two-year phase-in of that billion dollars. from a revenue perspective. Yeah. Okay. Just on Red Cape, as you mentioned, the performance has turned around. Where are we with the fee reductions that you put through that structure and how far away are they from?

When we made that concession, we made the concession with a sort of target of getting the distribution back through 1010 for Red Cape. This quarter, I think March quarter, we're distributing 2.5 cents per quarter, so that's back at 10 cents. So over the course of this year, we'd see the fee reduction rolling off and maybe 1st of July is a good place to start. But, yeah, we're very pleased with the response we've had that supports the return of the fee cut.

Yeah, OK. And so my third question, I think you said somewhere in the release, and forgive me if I get this wrong, but the second half recurring revenue margin in asset management is the right... sort of base for this year, this calendar year, and that was 1.61. So two questions. So firstly, is that right? And secondly, does that take account of any Warburg-Pinkus impacts or Red Cape impacts?

It does, and we're expecting to be pretty consistent with that second half. I think the outlook for the year ahead. Right, OK. Yep. Yep. Okay. Okay. And lastly,

Just on the strong progress of the middle business, you mentioned it's too early to talk about projections, but can you just remind us, not hypothetically, but in practice, what the revenue model actually is?

So middle will look at the end market that it services. So it currently charges fees to brokers that are on the platform. And strategically, we took it in the financial business that we have a pathway where we have been very successful growing broker numbers and charging broker fees to generate the revenue. strategically with a $139 billion book on your platform, be able to offer considerable value add and look at that entire loan book as a monetization opportunity is our leading light for middle. It is very early days.

Okay, I understand. Thank you very much.

Thank you. And once again, if you wish to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. Our next question comes from Tim Piper at UBS. Please go ahead.

Hey, morning team. First one just on MA money, Chris. Record monthly settlements in January and we saw an increasing momentum in terms of new settlements through the course of 24. So that's continued to grow really nicely, but you've also increased NIMH within that product as well. Can you just give us a sense? I mean, the mortgage market hasn't necessarily gotten easier, I don't think, so you've been able to accelerate book growth and improve NIM. On the NIM side of it, how much of that's come down on the funding cost side of things? And then secondly, can you just contextualise a little bit how you've managed to accelerate that book growth so well over the last 12 months?

With the book growth, As I said before, it's designing products on the shelf that really resonate with the market, being able to get them on the shelf quickly and have them funded promptly, and having good, efficient customer service and turnaround times, which means that you need a good tech backbone to the platform that you've built and the ability to source funding and capital to get products out there in the market quickly that you know people want to consume. And it's that formula and constant vigilance around that coupled with a view on pricing as well. So that's been the formula for what has driven the growth in the loan growth. As it relates to the NIM, I think I think we should all assume at all times the residential lending market in Australia is one of the most fiercely competitive financial markets that there is. The team in terms of looking at rates and returns are very dynamic in their thought processes around pricing, market offers, and so you have to have one eye on where the market is and the competitive position of your product. and another eye on where wholesale funding markets are and cost of capital. So, yes, if you look back and you look at our furnishings that we've done, it will be the blending of the portfolios has been a little bit different in the first, second and third. The funding costs have come in a bit too. So it's an equation that we can't give you a heap of science as to how it will precisely play out through the year, at different times, you look at volume versus you look at the NIM, and that's why hopefully the 26 number for the profitability that we're still guarding the market to, and that's 15 to 20 million of NPAT, should be what I think should be in the forefront of remodeling. It's been a combination of cheaper wholesale funding markets that we've managed to achieve, but also we are very

Okay, got it. Just a second one. On the US, so the strategic investment you've called out for 25, the majority of that's for the US private credit platform. Can you just maybe talk about where that money's being spent? Is it distribution people? And then on the back of that, as you look at that 400 to 500 US million of additional AUM to break even, what a rough timeframe we should be thinking about for those guys to start hitting the road and generating some AUM growth?

Yeah, so with respect to where the cost goes into the state, I mean, it's all around with respect to platform distribution and geosourcing capability as, you know, we've With respect to the timeframe of it, the exact cadence of that journey, we are literally out in market from the end of December regulatory approval. So it's really hard to say. What I will say is macro thesis remains the same, especially with respect to private credit and asset-backed lending not being institutionalized yet. And the expertise that we have there and the system's infrastructure from obviously the US platform that for six years we've been in here in Australia, very valuable. So it's too early to give you some sort of glide path or trajectory. Safe to say, I think, in Julian's comments was that we see this as the trough. So from here, the incremental growth, we'll see that spend being eaten into. You'd imagine we'd have a lot clearer idea of the half year. For example, with our private credit activity in Australia, for one of our flagship funds, we were raising $5 to $10 million a month on average over the first year, which has now grown to $50 to $60 million a month. So as long as we see the glide path move in the right direction, its gradient of recovery from the bottom is too early to tell, but we still have conviction in the macro thesis, so we think it is still definitely the right investment to make.

Got it. One more if I can, and this might be for Chris here again. Just on FinShore, revenue per broker has picked up in 24, generating really good revenue growth in the business. There's clearly some investment going in, so EBITDA growth has kind of lagged and margins have gone down a bit. Maybe just thoughts around what that investment in Vinture looks like this year and whether we're going to see a bit of a bounce back in EBITDA margins for that business?

I think on the financial business, we do also include middle, yes, we didn't know that at St Andrews as well, right? So there is, you know, so it's not just purely venture-owned. And I think historically they've grown at quite a fast rate in terms of attracting brokers to the platform and the loan book as well and so there's been that sort of higher level of expenses which have been required to keep the technology front of market but also build the BDM network who are out there recruiting, onboarding, training, developing So I see that expense continuing, that growth in line with the revenue. There's definitely an opportunity that we have in terms of opening the Philippines office, and we're using that to help scale the business more efficiently. That office we just opened literally a week ago, but Finch Oil are really heavily utilizing that office to help scale and build some more efficiency to the cost base. But for the year ahead, I sort of see it being a similar directory as to this year. We also have ramps up in New Zealand, so that will add a bit of extra cost before that. Before that, we rent the annualizers and it kicks in and grows.

Wonderful. Thanks for taking the questions.

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I'll now hand back to Mr. Biggins for closing remarks.

Okay, thank you. Thank you for your interest. And I know you've all got a busy day, so we'll let you get to it. And we look forward to seeing those that we're seeing on the road trip. Thank you.

Thank you. That does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.