Thales S.A.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Thales Q1 2025 Order Intake and Sales Conference call. The presentation will be held by Pascal Bouchier, Thales CFO. It will be followed by a question and answer session. If you wish to ask a question, you will need to press star 1 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. I must advise you that this conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Alexandra Boucheron, VP, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, Madame.

Good morning. Welcome and thank you all for joining us for the presentation of Thales Q1 2025 Order Intake and Sell. I am Alexandra Boucheron, Head of Investor Relations at Thales. With me today is Pascal Boucheron, our Chief Financial Officer. As usual, this presentation is audio webcasted live on our website at thalesgroup.com, where the slides and press release are also available for download. A replay will be available soon after the end of the event. With that, I would like to turn over the call to Pascal Boucher.

Thank you Alexandre and good morning everyone. Let's kick off with Q1 2025 highlights before digging into the numbers. I'm now on slide two. So Thales has started 2025 with another quarter of robust underlying commercial momentum. The level of demand for products and solutions continues to be high in most of our businesses, which make us fully confident to achieve our guidance of a book-to-bill ratio above one in 2025. Sales growth was strong in the first quarter, amounting to 9.9% organically versus last year. This performance is particularly driven by all Avionics activities on the one hand, and by defense on the other hand. Talking about defense, The momentum in Europe is particularly positive. As you have seen over the last few weeks, we support these statements from European leaders and heads of states. Thales is uniquely positioned to benefit from this, leveraging its wide portfolio of premium products and solutions fitting the needs of its customers. Although the majority of the P&L impact from those additional orders contributions will not be recorded before 2028. We are now counting on a generation long visibility in our defense activities. Lastly, our cyber business, on which I will come back later in the presentations, is expected to be ramping up throughout the year. The integration of Imperva is progressing well. and as planned. As you know, the start of the year is marked by a critical step of the merger. Indeed, Salesforce of Thales and Imperva are merging, and this will allow unlocking the full potential of cybersecurity products. Moving on to Q1 2025 key figures on slide three. Order intake amounted to 3.8 billion euros over the quarter, down 27% organically compared to last year. Year-on-year growth compares to a very high comparison basis due to major contracts signed in Q1 2024. And if you compare Q1 2025 order intake to the same quarters in 2023 and 2022, we are above. You will see that On the next slide. Sales came to 5 billion euros over the quarter, which is a strong increase of 9.9% in organic terms, driven notably by defense and aerospace. Now, looking in details at Q1 2025 order intake on slide four. As said, commercial momentum was solid in the first quarter. with notably a strong performance in aerospace. Year-on-year growth compares to a very high Q1 2024 base. Let me indeed remind you that Q1 2024 saw the booking of jumbo contracts, of which two were worth a unit value of more than 500 million euros each. The third tranche of the WAFAD contract in Indonesia, as well as a major air surveillance contract for military customer in Middle East. The historical order intake performance for the first quarter since 2022 shows that Q1 2025 has achieved a solid growth and is in line with the group's growth trajectory. Five large orders were recorded in QN 2025, which is one more than last year. Three of these large orders were recorded in space, of which two communication satellites for Space Norway and JSAT group in Japan, as well as a contract for the Open Space Agency to develop Argonaut, the first European lunar lander. One was booked in Avionics training and simulation business line to upgrade and support tactical simulators for the Dutch Army. And one was recorded in defense with a DGA in France to produce electronics equipment for French Army vehicles as part of the Scorpion program. Orders below 10 million euros, representing 60% of the overall order intake, continued to grow in Q1 2025. Moving on to Q1 2025 sales, I'm now on slide 5. Starting with a few words on scope and currency impact. In Q1 2025, we recorded a positive 84 million euros scope impact mainly coming from Cobham Aerocomps and also GetSat acquisition. Let me remind you that from Q2 onwards, Cobham will be included in organic figures as the acquisition has been finalized the end of April 2024. Currents impact was slightly positive at 17 million euros over the quarter. Sales organic growth was strong in Q1 2025 at 9.9% versus last year, marking a solid start to the year for Thales. This growth was mainly driven by aerospace on the one hand with a strong sales momentum in avionics, and by defense, on the other hand, that continued to record sharp growth. Cyber and digital was slightly down on the back of a soft quarter for digital identity, while cyber is expected to ramp up in the next quarters. Importantly, sales organic growth was once again well-balanced with a strong contribution from both mature and emerging markets. As you can see, for instance, in Europe, North America, and emerging markets. Now, moving on to performance by segment, starting with aerospace on slide six. Orders in aerospace came at 1.5 billion euros, which represents a 45% growth in organic terms. Avionics sees continuous strong demands and recorded one order with a unit value above 100 million euros in training and simulations in Q1 2025. In space, Order intake has been ahead of schedule compared to the planned annual rate with a notification of three large orders. Sales amounted to 1.3 billion euros in the segments at end of March, an increase of 8.4% organically versus last year. Avionics recorded solid double-digit growth over the quarter thanks to a solid performance in all activities, IFE and also flight avionics, OE, as well as aftermarkets, and also all domains, civil as military. Space sales over the quarter were still impacted by the low demand in telco business that we have experienced over the last two years. Turning on to slide 7 and commenting defense key figures. From a global standpoint, and as I keep saying, I need to remind that order intake can be bumpy from one quarter to another. And really, I mean, the trend is to be looked at over a longer term. So in Q1 2025, order intake amounted to 1.3 billion euros, a decline of minus 59% compared to last year. Although underlying momentum remains strong and overall environment supportive, two elements explain this relative low start. Firstly, a high comparison basis, notably with two major contracts with value above 500 million euros recorded in Q1 2024, as I mentioned earlier. Secondly, a phasing of large size contract book in 2025, which would be more spread over Q2 to Q4 than last year. We can accordingly confirm that the sense book to bill ratio will be above one in 2025. Sales amounted to 2.7 billion euros at the end of March, reflecting a sharp organic growth of 15%. All our defense activities are contributing to this robust performance, and particularly land and air systems this quarter, benefiting notably from RADAR's production ramp-up that we have already mentioned in Q4 last year. Backlog remains strong and will continue to fuel sales growth going forward that we expect to stand between 6 and 7% organically in 2025. Keep in mind that comparison basis will get tougher as we progress into the year and that sales growth in 2025 is rather front-loaded. Now, looking at the cyber and digital on slide eight. As announced at our Capital Market Day last year, we are now providing more granularity within the segments, detailing both cyber and digital performance. At €903 million, sales of the CDI segment are slightly down in Q1 2025, recording a minus 2% organic loss. Sales were flat in cyber with different trends between product and services. Cyber products, which represent 80% of cyber business, recorded growth in the quarter, leveraging Imperva's complementary offering. The integration of Imperva is still ongoing and progressing as planned. And the start of 2025 is marked by an important step, where indeed merging Imperva and Thales sales team representing more than 1,000 people worldwide. So this is not a small matter. This process, once completed, will unlock full potential of the business. However, as expected, it creates some disturbances in the short term. Cyber services sales, on the other hand, were down in Q1 2025. This is mainly due to a soft market start of the year, in particular in Australia, where upcoming elections create a bit of wait-and-see attitude. In this business, we are also currently standardizing our operations to improve margin and focusing our sales strategy on selective, profitable growth segments. Growth in cyber as a whole will accelerate throughout the year. Moving to digital identity, with sales well done in Q1 reflecting contrasted trends. Payment services business is back to growth. This ends five quarters in a row of sales organic decline, which as such is an encouraging sign. Identity and biometrics, on the other hand, is down in Q1 2025. You probably remember that during COVID, this activity faced a downturn. Post-pandemic, we benefited from a catch-up effect until 2024, notably in the travel document activity. Therefore, this effect is not tolerable as this business is now normalizing to a more usual run rate. So a few words now on the current global context around US tariffs. I'm now on slide 9. So the objective here is to provide a few elements to consider when assessing the current situations and what it could mean for Thales. However, as you know, the level of volatility and uncertainty is pretty high. And of course, we keep monitoring closely the evolution. So this is based on what we know for now and our interpretations of the latest statements from the US administration. So starting with global consideration for Thales. First, defense that represents approximately one-fourth of Thales' sales in the U.S. is a multi-local business, which is protected by nature as flows from non-U.S. entities to U.S. are rather limited. Also, defense keeps being exempt from tariffs. Second, our avionics business has limited exposure to large US OEMs, Boeing and Gulfstream in particular. Third, most of our cybersecurity business is based in the US, so not affected by import duties. Fourth element in some of our export contracts, i.e. when a non-US Thales entity sells to a US customer, we benefit from favorable incoterms. In other words, contractually, Thales doesn't support tariff surcharge. To illustrate our exposure to ES-TIFE, you can refer to the graph we have put on the right part of the slide. As you can see, out of the 2.6 billion euro sales we made in the US in 2024, around 75% were domestic, meaning sold by a US Thales entity to a US customer. remaining 25 persons were imported from various countries or reflecting use of materials that are imported. Having those elements in mind, there are three areas of our U.S. business that could be impacted and that are under our scrutiny. First, I mean the aftermarket business within the avionics segments, which partly relies on imports, such as for repairs and spare parts. The imports originate from various countries, France being the main one. Still, within avionics, and the second element is our IFE business, which could also be impacted as it is importing screens from China into the US. The third point within cyber and digital is payment cards sold in the US, which are mostly produced in other countries, mainly Mexico and Singapore. This being said, we are of course actively working to implement and roll out mitigation actions to reduce the potential impact from tariffs. A few examples are set out on the slide. Namely, using specific customs programs that limit the impact of tariff rise, for instance duty drawback or temporary importations under bonds for goods imported and exported within one year. Another element is with redirecting production flows to minimize the impact of highest tariffs. Another example is optimizing the supply chain, for instance, with alternate or dual sourcing. Of course, also considering amending transfer prices and also lastly passing through surcharge to customers. The key message I would like to deliver here is that at this stage, and based on the available elements, the direct net impact is overall contained. As to potential indirect impacts, of course, at this point, they are not known at this stage. So moving to the last slide of the presentations, slide 10. As you have seen, Q1 2025 was a pretty solid start to the year across the board. Momentum remains supportive in most of our businesses and the perspectives are strong for 2025 and beyond. This allows us to fully confirm our objective a book-to-bill ratio to be above 1 in 2025. Sales are expected to go organically between 5 and 6 persons, corresponding to a range of 21.7 to 21.9 billion euros based on April 2025 year-to-date foreign exchange rates. I remind that this guidance fully incorporates potential tariff impact with the elements that we are aware of as of today. And third, adjusted EBIT margin expected between 12.2 and 12.4%. So many thanks for your attentions and I will now be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now start the question and answer session. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please press star 1 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. We will now take the first question. Comes from the line of Ben Healan from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Yeah, morning, Pascal, Alexander. I hope you guys are well. First question from me, Pascal. On the cyber premium services weakness, can you go into a little bit more detail actually what is driving that? It seems quite a big decline just in Q1. So just a bit more color on what's driving that and how we should think about it in the second quarter and through the rest of the year. Second question would be, is there any update that you can provide on the space discussions with Airbus and Leonardo? I think there was some press that the three of you had met with the European Commission a couple of weeks ago. So just any update there? would be super helpful. And then finally, your DIS or CDI business is quite a short cycle business and you've given us a kind of direct impact assessment from tariffs. I was just wondering, have you seen any evidence of indirect impact yet? over the last three four weeks whether it be in the shorter cycle business in cdi or maybe in uh maybe in aerospace uh on the avionics side just any any comments there uh would be would be great thank you okay uh good morning ben um okay so let's start with uh cyber premium services uh maybe to make sure that everybody has followed uh

As you know, in our cyber business that we brought separately from digital in our CDI business, the bulk of this business is really the product segments, which by far is the most profitable one. It represents 80% of the overall cyber business within CDI. And here, I mean, your question was more about the second one, which is the services, what we call cyber premium services, which represent 20% of the overall cyber business that we report under CDI. And it's true that here, I mean, quite a low start. And as I mentioned, I mean, maybe two elements to consider on this matter. First, as you know, we made an acquisition back in 2023 in Australia and we see in this business some weakness in terms of level of demand. As you know, Australia will undergo elections. in the next few weeks and it's true that we have seen some kind of wait and see attitude on this business. Now, more structurally, it's true that at this point the level of profitability of our cyber premium services is not in line with our expectations. As opposed to the product business where profitability is pretty high, In premium services today, the level of profitability is not in line with our expectations. This is the reason why we tend to focus this business more and more on the most rewarding market segments. where the level of profitability is significantly higher. So this is also what we're planning to do and it's true that in some cases we have in 2024 and beginning of 2025 decided to exit some accounts here and there in market segments where we believe that the overall profitability in the mediums is not in line with our expectations. Second question about update and discussion with Leonardo, Airbus and Space. You probably have in mind that we are pretty quiet and we don't talk too much and this potential partnership between the three companies and Space. I mean, it's true that we clearly confirm high-level non-binding discussions across our three groups on the future of our space business. And I don't want to be more vocal on this matter. By definition, we all know that a significant part of this business is a commercial business. is a commercial business where, by definition, antitrust rules apply. And by definition, this is a matter that is quite important in the context of those high-level discussions between the three of us. So I don't want to be more explicit on this matter. Just to remind you that in this overall framework, we keep focusing our teams on the restorations of profitability in our space business. And in particular, I mean, through the implementation of this cost adaptation, this cost-cutting program that we have announced in March 2024. Last point, tariff impact on the short cycle. At this point, we don't see, let's be clear, we don't see today impact of the rise in tariff on a short term cycle business like CDI. and also aftermarket in our avionics. It is not what we see today. Now, of course, I mean, we need to be quite vigilant on this matter, but at this point, and in particular, I was quite vocal about, I mean, the growth that we enjoyed in Q1 2025 on all our avionics businesses, including in the aftermarket business, which deliver pretty strong performance in Q1 2025.

Great. Thanks, Pascal.

Thank you, Ben.

Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Olivier Prochette from Brightburn Atlantic. Please go ahead.

Yes. Good morning, Pascal and Alexandra. I will have three questions as well, if I may. The first one is about defense in Europe. Do you have any element that you can share on geographical areas where you see stronger growth for Thales compared to the local market? If you could give us a few data points for that. The second question is on FX. There have been quite a lot of FX moves In recent weeks, could you update us on what we should expect for the full year in terms of the impact at this stage? And third, it's following up on Ben's question on short cycle businesses. In payments, do you have any signal at this stage of potential slowdown in the US or anything that would... come back and return the business to some decline.

Okay, thank you very much Olivier for the three questions. So starting with defense in In Europe, I mean, at this point, what we earned is pretty bold statements from all political leaders in almost all countries within Europe. I mean, starting in France with Mr. Macron. are saying that we need to move from 2 to 3 percent of defense spending as a proportion of GDP. In the UK, Prime Minister Starmer is saying that we need to keep growing and reaching 2.5 percent of GDP in 2027, but targeting 3 percent longer terms. What happened in Germany with the vote to exempt spending and defense and the vote of the 500 billion euro investment funds, which has been voted mid-March, the statements from political leaders more in the eastern part of Europe. So across the board, I mean, we have seen in Q1 2025 a number of pretty strong statements from head of states about the need to increase defense panics. Not to mention what, for instance, the head of NATO, General Secretary Mark Rutte, saying that NATO countries should keep rising their defence spending. This is underlying, saying that we need to move from below 2 to above 3%. So it's really across the board, I mean, statements. Now, I mean, we have been also quite clear about the needs for those countries to get organized before we could see a direct impact for us in terms of additional order intake. And we said that, of course, it will take time before we move from those high-level statements to actual increase in budget. And probably in 2026 budget should be a good first input to see how quickly we'll see those increase in different spending materializing in terms of defense budget for each of those countries. Now what we see, and I guess we have been also quite clear, is that in particular for Thales in 2025, we also expect a Ukraine contribution to be higher than it was so far. We mentioned that Ukraine in 2023-2024 in terms of order intake and level of revenue would represent something like 1% of our overall order intake and sales at group level. So 1% of Thales order intake and revenue. Now it's true that in particular in 2025 we are targeting more business directed to Ukraine and in particular what could be a pretty jumbo project, contract, which is what Prime Minister Starmer mentioned a few weeks ago about putting in place trade exports funding to allow the production of 5,000 short-range missiles that would be manufactured by Thales in Belfast. So I see that as an opportunity for us in 2025. Second question about Forex. So Forex, we need to consider two angles. One is the transactional exposure, and the second one is more the translation, the conversions So let me start with the overall exposure on transactions. Overall, and it's a figure that we have already communicated in the past, overall, I mean, TADES exposure to US dollars from a transaction standpoint represents around 800 million euros per year. Two thirds on Evianix. and one-third on cyber and digital. Now, the good thing is that as I look at our overall level of hedges, what I can share with you is that with regard to Avionics, 2025, 2026, and a significant part of 2027 has been hedged. at an average rate of 1.08, which is pretty satisfactory considering how we see today the US dollar-euro conversion rate. On CDI, as I mentioned, which represents one third of this global exposure, 2025 is fully hedged. But as this is a short cycle type of business, at this point, I mean, the hedges that were booked, I mean, relies only to 2025. 2026 is not hedged on this CDI business. The second point is on translation. Translation is the impact of Thales entities that report their accounts in US dollars and the impact as this is converted in euros. Overall, in 2025, as I looked at the overall sales that are reported, in US dollars from overall ATLAS entities that report in dollars. It represents overall a level of annual revenue of around $4 billion, which means that if you consider moving from 1.05 to 1.15, the impact in terms of revenue overall on an annual basis something around 350 million euros. Now in terms of EBIT this time, overall I mean those US denominated entities, overall they report a level of EBIT which is around 800 million dollars, 800 million dollars, which means that a 10 cents change moving from 1.05 to 1.15 which represents something like 70 billion euro of impact. So a slight negative effect overall in the overall EBIT margin of Thales that overall represents something like 10 basis points. So this is what I can share with you on Forex. and the last point on on our payments banking business so as i mentioned i mean q1 was was overall positive in terms of organic growth as i mentioned we have experience since the last quarter of 2023 i mean more overall negative growth on this business, being the outcome of the stocking from our customers in the US. So in Q1, we turned back positive in terms of organic growth. Our level of visibility at this point is still quite low. I mean, you mentioned the impact of, I guess, probably, how could we consider a potential recession in the US in terms of impact on our payment business. At this point, it's probably a bit difficult to anticipate. However, there's, of course, some kind of correlations between this business and the overall GDP growth. So of course, this business will not be immune to a recession in the US if this is what you consider. But this is not what I've seen so far. OK. Thank you very much for the detailed answer, Pascal.

Thank you. We will now take the next question. from the line of David Perry from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Yeah, hi. Good morning, Pascal and Alexandra. Sorry, just very quickly, did you just say to Olivier the impact of translation on EBITDA was $70 million or $17 million? I didn't quite hear that.

No, it was $70 million. And as I mentioned, the underlying level of EBIT that are reported by overall US entities, it represents a bit less than $800 million. And $800 million of underlying EBIT, if you assess, I mean, a 10 cents change in Forex, overall it represents something like 70, 70 million euros of bottom line impact on an annual basis. Okay, thank you.

Look, you've had a really good defense print, so I feel a bit bad asking some more questions about cyber, but I would like to just focus on that. You acquired the business a year ago, so I'm just wondering why you're starting the Salesforce integration now. Why is that impacting sales? You just give a bit more color on that. How long will it take? And what are you now expecting for full year cyber sales?

Thank you. Okay. So, David, I mean, as you know, I mean, the completion of the acquisition of Interva, it took place end of November 2023. So, I mean, probably worth to remind you that in particular two very important elements of the integrations in terms of synergy. One is the merge of the overall sales force and second is the merge of the overall product policy. you are in mind that this business is a business that is driven by developments by R&D developing new products in particular I mean more and more I mean software products and of course I mean the I mean the the merge of product policy is quite important and the second one as you know this is a business where I mean the the level of sales expenses and behind that the size of the Salesforce is also pretty important because once you've got your product then I mean it is how you can sell it as quickly as possible throughout the world so this is basically what underpins I mean the business model of this software as a service type of cyber security business So what I've explained in 2024 was that we were preparing the merge of those two sales forces, which overall represents something like 1,000 employees. So this is a pretty large sales forces located in various countries with a number of key elements to be taken into consideration as we were preparing this merge. One key element, for example, is merging the two incentive programs, which are absolutely paramount in this type of business, because this is the nerve of the world. I mean, we are talking about sales reps that have a level of variable compensation that in most cases is significantly above their basic salary. So you can imagine that merging those two incentive programs, we took a bit of time before launching this merger. And this was really anticipated as we closed transactions. to consider that it would take us something like one year to get ready for that and then to move from the practical implementations of this merge. So it is taking place today. I mean overall things are doing pretty okay. Now, of course, I mean, as you move, I mean, employees take swaps from one responsibility to another one, changing the overall organizations. It's true that there's a bit of disturbances. So all of that will progress in the next few months, no doubt about that. My view is that probably in the beginning of H2 2025, it will be behind us. But it means that the next few months could be still a bit impacted by this overall merge of those sales funds. So overall, I mean, this is what I can share with you about your last point about, I mean, what do we expect in terms of sales growth for this cyber business? We mentioned as we released our 2024 financials that our objective for 2025 was more, I think, a digit. So at this point, let's take a bit of a higher perspective and probably getting back to you probably mid-year to see whether or not to mention our view on the overall level of organic growth for 2025. considering this merge of our two sales forces. So at this point, this is still an objective. Now, it will depend, of course, on the Q2 figures and how we will see them in Q3 and Q4. So this is what we can share with you on this matter. No specific concern, but a step which is quite significant for us I mean, and very important because behind that it synergies. And also, of course, as you can imagine, the merge of the two work sales forces is also designed, I mean, overall to deliver more growth, I mean, to unlock potential of the two combined organizations. This is basically what we have also in mind through this merge of those two sales forces.

Very clear. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Christoph Menard from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes, thank you very much for taking my question. So I have three questions. The first one is on defense and the broader appetite for your product since the start of the year. We understand well that I mean, the political declaration needs to translate into deeds and budget now, but have the discussions with your clients, well, you have had discussions with your clients, on which product did you see a change in terms of interest? And what is the main concern from the prospective buyers? Is it price, availability, technical capabilities? So that was the first question. The second question is on the growth you had in defense in organic growth in Q1, which was a positive surprise to me, 15%, despite a tough comparison basis, to be honest. So I just wanted to better understand what you were, I mean, looking at the organic growth you had in subsequent quarters last year, they were solid, but Q1 was extremely good last year. So should we, I mean, how can we, I mean, there is a phasing between H1 and H2, that's what you mentioned, but... Can you help us better understand this? Is it due to some specific milestones that you're seeing? And so that's kind of the phasing of that growth in defense. And the last question is on Avionics. How can you explain such a strong and aligned growth in all segments? I mean, both OE and MRO. Is it always just the production rates of your clients and MRO as well?

Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much, Christophe. So let me start with defense. And where do we see today in our discussions with our clients? I mean, in particular, a broader appetite, a stronger interest in our product. So it's not just one product. It's more across the board. But if I would have to name... I mean, a domain where we see today a lot of excitement. Maybe it could be air defense capability, in particular mid-range air defense. Maybe you have heard about this famous SAMTI. I mean, in particular the new generations of mid-range air defense capabilities that Italy and France are developing. And that could, of course, replace a Patriot type of capability. So that's really, I mean, where today we've got intense discussions with clients on this matter. And to a large extent, not just mid-range, but including, I mean, for us, quite an important product range, which is a short-range air defense capability. short-range missiles in particular from our Thales UK business. I mentioned this project that would be 5,000 what we call LMM short-range missiles to be sold to Ukraine with a UK backstop funding. Maybe a second type of capability where we also have a pretty large discussion is electronic warfare. And it's also a political outcome of what happened in Ukraine in terms of probably missing capabilities. The third is, of course, I mentioned missiles, but it is also the case for rockets, mortar, for Thales in particular. So those are some key elements. a product where today we've got quite intense discussions with clients. And then on top of that, it is about getting more of existing platforms. So whether it's a frigate, whether it's a combat aircraft, So, they need to have more of existing platforms because, I mean, it's not a question, I mean, coming back to your question about, is there, I mean, missing capabilities in terms of technology? In most cases, the answer is no. I mean, the technologies are there. It's more a question of those countries being able to order more of existing platforms. So that was your first question. A second question about sales growth, in particular in defense and avionics. So overall, I keep saying that we shouldn't over-interpret quarterly figures. Of course, on order intake, I believe that commenting in a lot of details quarterly order intake doesn't make sense. On sales, probably it's more meaningful, even though, I mean, Also on revenue, I mean, you might have a cutoff effect from one quarter to the other. So it's true that defense growth in Q1 was above our expectations. Now we know that on defense 2025, in terms of growth, we'll be pretty much front loaded. As you know, I mean, we had a very, very strong Q4 last year with a growth of 24% which means that I don't expect in Q4 2025 to report a positive growth against Q4 last year because I mean the components basis is so high that this is not what I'm expecting so basically it's true that for defense 2025 will be probably more front-loaded with what I've just mentioned. All of that giving, of course, I mean, this 15% organic growth for defense Q1, this gives us a pretty strong confidence about our six to seven percent organic growth for defense for 2025. Avionics now, I mean, first, I mean, if I look at our aerospace segment in Q1 2025, space was pretty strong in terms of order intake. And as I mentioned, in particular, because, I mean, we booked three big contracts in Q1, in particular two on telco. And it doesn't change our overall view for order intake for space in 2025, but it's true that it's pretty much also a front-loaded type of order intake profile for space business, which is always bumpy because in space, we're talking about a limited number of pretty large contracts in this type of business. Now it's true that from a revenue standpoint, Avionics was in Q1 above our expectation and this pretty much throughout all our segments in this business. Now it's also important to have in mind that as we released our 2024 figures, I mentioned that Q4 for aerospace in particular for Avionics was below expectation because some of our deliveries have been postponed by our clients, in particular in our IFE business. As you probably remember, some of our customers are still waiting for aircraft and seats to be delivered to their own premises. So we've got here a bit of a catch-up effect from Q4 to Q1. However, I need to say that overall it's not just IFE, we benefit from overall a pretty strong level of demand in Q1 for all our segments in our evening business and also when it comes to aftermarket, which has been pretty strong in Q1. So here again, I mean, this level of start in terms of growth rate on revenue for EVNX probably give us a pretty good level of confidence for the full year 2025. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you. We will now take the next question. From the line of George McWhifley from Barenburg, please go ahead.

Good morning. Thank you for the question. Just on the cyber business again, I think you previously guided to reaching double-digit growth in this business. Is this a level you're still comfortable with? And if so, when do you expect to reach this growth rate? Thank you.

Excuse me, Josh, your question was about cyber? Yes. So, so I think that already commented a bit about, I mean, cyber objective for 2025 was I think I did it. And now, as I mentioned, it's true that I mean, Q1 is a bit of a slow start for the reasons that I mentioned, both on product cyber security product in particular mean the impact of the merge of our Salesforce as I mentioned and seconds on on services as I mentioned a negative growth in q1 and because I mentioned weakness in Australia and also a willingness to to focus our businesses on probably more high-end or more profitable type of market segment. So at this point, probably a bit difficult at this point to confirm, I think, a digit for the full year. This is where I said that we need probably to come back to you mid-year. based on Q1 and Q2 on this matter. Now, on the midterms, no doubt that this double-digit top-line growth for cyber is really our objective. It has been the case in the past. It's true that Q1 is a bit of a slow start, but midterms, this is basically the type of growth that we expect for this overall cyber business. Thank you.

Thank you. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please press star 1 1 on your telephone. That's star 1 and 1 if you wish to ask a question. I would like to hand back over to Pascal Bouchier for closing remarks.

It was quite clear. Thank you very much for your questions. So Alexandra and her team are of course at your disposal if you have any follow-up questions. So don't hesitate to reach out. With that, thank you very much for your attention. I wish you all a very good day. Thank you and see you. Bye-bye.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. If you didn't have a chance to ask your question on today's call, please do not hesitate to send your question to Thales Group Investor Relations at ir.thalesgroup.com and we will get back to you as soon as possible. Thank you all for your participation. You may now disconnect.