OC Oerlikon Corporation AG

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Oerlikon Q1 2023 results conference call and live webcast. I am George, the chorus call operator. I would like to remind you that all participants will be listened only mode and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by Q&A session. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Stefan Geek, head of investor relations. Please go ahead, sir.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Erlikon's Q1 results call. With me in the call, I have Philipp Müller, CFO of Erlikon. Philipp will start the call with a presentation providing an update on our end markets, financials, and strategic progress. We will then follow up with Q&A. With that, I would like to open our presentation and hand over to Philipp. The floor is yours.

Thank you, Stefan. Good morning, everyone. and welcome to our first quarter results presentation. In Q1, we made progress on our strategic objectives and delivered results in line with our expectations. I will start with an overview of the group results, followed by an update on our end markets, the divisional results, and we'll conclude with an update on our strategic priorities. At the group level, orders were 681 million Swiss francs. As we anticipated, polymer processing solutions customers are beginning to delay their investment decisions. In surface solutions, orders were up slightly, with the book-to-bill ratio above one. Sales were up 11% at constant FX to 735 million Swiss francs. This includes a 3% contribution from our acquisition of Riri. In surface solutions, The sales increase was driven by higher equipment sales and strong performance in the aviation markets. In polymer processing solutions, we executed well on the existing order book. Operational EBITDA was 116 million Swiss francs, impacted by mix and higher input costs. EBITDA margin was 15.8%. As expected, This is slightly below our target range of 16% to 16.5% for the fourth year. Margins in the coming quarters will be supported by structural price increases to pass on wage inflation and energy costs. The cost actions we took in 2022 will also phase in throughout the year and support margins. With that, let me provide you an update on our end markets. In polymer processing solutions, customers are delaying investment decisions, which is reflected in our order intake. On the filament side, we have a good order book coverage for the first half of 2023. Chinese customers have experienced a difficult macro environment in the past years. They were exposed to higher input costs, logistics challenges, tighter financing, to softer domestic consumer demand. As a result, We see Chinese filament customers postponing their capex decisions and preserving cash until they have more visibility. This started in the second half of last year, and to date, we have not yet seen a significant demand revitalization. Especially during this time, we continue to drive innovation that will extend our technology leadership. Efficient new machines will bring forward the investment decisions of our customers as they look to stay competitive. Improving financing conditions in China and increased consumer demand will also drive investment decisions. We expect an order uptick to happen in late 2023 or in early 2024. For the time being, we remain cautious and implement the cost measures we discussed to manage the expected lower sales volume as of the second half of the year. In non-filament, we saw continued organic sales growth, which was up 4% in Q1. This was supported by the flow control business. Erlikon's leading technology in hot runners is seeing continued growth in automotive, as carmakers bringing new electric vehicle models. Technology leadership is being leveraged into adjacent non-automotive markets, such as durable goods. The non-woven and industrial yarns businesses may see some customers delay investment decisions. Typically, orders are smaller here with lower financing needs and return faster when consumer demand picks up. In the surface solutions division, we're operating across the tooling, automotive, aviation, luxury, and general industries and markets. We saw a relatively slow start to the year on the service side of the general industries and tooling and markets. However, experienced higher equipment sales. The service business has closer correlation to industrial production. Manufacturing PMIs continue to indicate that industrial activity will be softer this year. This may be mitigated by activity in China, which improved in March after lockdowns and the national holidays. In automotive, the first quarter was still impacted by supply chain challenges and a lag between carmakers' production and reordering stock. Industry forecasts show a conservative level of growth. We expect improving demand to phase in across the year as shortages release and destocking stops. This is supported by positive indications from major European carmakers. Erlikon has also made significant commercial progress with e-mobility solutions, particularly in battery shielding. I will provide more details later in the presentation. In luxury, the China reopening is set to drive growth. Chinese customers are expected to spend more on luxury both domestically and as they travel to overseas destinations. Global Blue, which tracks tax-free shopping, showed same-store sales above 2019 levels in Europe and the Middle East, driven by mainland China consumers in the first quarter. This provides an exciting growth environment for corridor and our newly consolidated rear reacquisition. Finally, in aviation, we see continued volume growth, as increasing flying hours are driving MRO activity. The China reopening and return to long-haul travel is a key factor as the industry returns towards 2019 flying hours. Ehrlichon's leading technologies will support more efficient and more sustainable new planes. Summing up, the difficult market environment for polymer processing solutions and filament will impact 2023 and 2024 sales. We've taken proactive measures to preserve profitability and emerge even stronger. In surface solutions, we expect growth in automotive, luxury, and aviation. This may be balanced by softening industrial activity. Now let's move on to page four with the financials for our surface solutions division. Orders worth 382 million Swiss francs, up 6% FX adjusted. Sales increased 17% in local currency to 369 million Swiss francs. Book-to-bill was above 1. Softening industrial activity had an impact on service revenues and general industries and tooling. This was more than offset by higher equipment sales in Q1. Aviation continued to recover in Q1, and we saw a strong quarter in energy. Luxury included one month of the rear reacquisition. Operational EBITDA in the third quarter declined 3% to 59 million Swiss francs. EBITDA margin was 15.8%. The business was impacted by higher input costs and saw negative sales mix effects from increased demand for equipment and materials. January and February were weak service months. However, the trend in margin April makes us confident that we're looking at a more favorable mix equation for the remainder of the year. Cost actions, initiated in the fourth quarter of 2022, will support margins during 2023 as they phase in. We also took pricing actions during the quarter and plan a further round of price increases this summer. Next, employment processing solutions. Orders in polymer processing solutions were 298 million Swiss francs. This is down 24% in local currency, with customers postponing orders in filaments, as anticipated. Sales of 366 million Swiss francs were up around 5% in cuts at FX. This was against a strong comp and demonstrates solid execution by the team. Non-filament sales were up 9% of constant currencies. Operational EBITDA was 55 million Swiss francs. Margins were 15.1%, impacted by sales mix and higher input costs. Cost measures booked in 2022 will support margins as lower sales volumes phase in later in 2023. Next, let me give you an update on our strategic priorities. A key pillar of the EARLYCON strategy is to leverage core competencies into new areas. One prospective new area is battery shielding. Car makers urgently need solutions that protect passengers from battery fires. We indicated our battery shielding development last year at the Capital Markets Day, where we outlined exciting new products for electric vehicles. These products will be key drivers of our midterm growth ambition in automotive. As you see at the top left of the slide, Erlikon has technology leadership in carbon friction materials and coatings for automotive applications, including synchronizers and transmission components. Erlikon accelerated the application of this technology into e-mobility with a small acquisition in 2020. The platform which we acquired specializes in the development of thermal insulation material solutions for EVs. With our global automotive business and longstanding relations with auto OEMs, we were well positioned to accelerate and industrialize the development of battery shielding. Our newly developed solutions protect passengers from fire, electrocution, and toxic gases. They are ESG-compliant, thinner, and lighter than alternative solutions. We are pleased that we're signing our first two supply contracts with two European auto OEMs. We are also in conversations with a number of additional carmakers around the world. Just for this solution, we see an annual sales opportunity well in excess of 50 million Swiss francs. Next. on our sustainability progress. Ehrlichon published the 2022 sustainability report at the end of March. We made significant progress towards our 2030 targets. We reduced our greenhouse gas emission intensity by 17% versus the baseline. This was driven by energy management systems rollout, energy efficiency actions, and the increased use of renewable energy. In particular, the energy efficiency measures reduced our energy intensity per million Swiss francs of sales by around 7% in 2022. This supports both our sustainability and financial goals. We increased the percentage of R&D investments that cover ESG criteria. This will drive future sales through more sustainable products that help our customers be more resource efficient. We also made progress on our Scope 3 project, our diversity goals, and our supply chain. With that, let me conclude the presentation on the next slide. During the quarter, we made progress on the execution of our midterm strategy, while at the same time, we proactively addressed short-term macro headwinds. Polymer Processing Solutions has executed well and delivered a Q1 in line with our expectations. We are executing the cost-out program that brings the flexibility support margins at transitorily lower filament volume. The division continues to deliver innovations and has the flexibility to ramp up quickly when demand returns. The non-filament business continued to deliver growth, supported by new e-mobility car models and market extensions. In surface solutions, cost and pricing measures will support margins throughout the year, in line with our expectations. We expect growth from the easing of shortages in automotive, recovery in aviation, and luxury expansion to be partially offset by lower industrial production in 2023. In terms of strategy execution, we are successfully leveraging our core competencies into new areas like luxury and battery shielding. These areas will drive sales growth in the midterm. On ESG, we are on track with our 2030 targets. These measures support both our sustainability and financial ambitions. Overall, we have made solid progress and our strategy execution is on track. We confirm our 2023 guidance.

With that, let me open it up for Q&A.

We will now begin the question and answer session. The first question comes from Michael Voth from Vontobel. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Good morning, Phil. Two questions from my side. First on the margins and the cost actions. Could you remind us the phasing of those actions and the impact on margins that you expect through the year? What profile should we expect here versus your your Q1 margins and the guidance that you put out. And the second question is on the filament business. You said you expect orders to pick up again in late 23. Did I get that right? And sort of what profile are you now expecting into 24? Maybe that's a bit early, but if you could share your thoughts there. Thank you.

Great. Good morning, Michael. The first one, I think, is specifically on the surface solution side. And I would say there's two things. The mix that we had that we experienced that was highly unfavorable in January and February, that's already turned. So March and April have a much more favorable mix component. In other words, services is much, much stronger. So I'm expecting that to have an immediate impact on margins. We're expecting Q2 margins to be substantially stronger Q3 and Q4 as well. And, you know, the cost actions, I would say something similar. I think the majority of them will fully take effect in Q2 and Q3. And so we're expecting that to support margins as well. And on top of that, the price action. So we look at that pretty confidently and having a better layup for the rest of the year, even if some of the labor cost components continue to slightly increase. And then on the filament side, you're right. That's what we said. Our outlook for 2024 is currently unchanged from what we previously said. We're looking at sales above $1 billion. And margins well into the double digits. And we think that the order book can refill towards the end of this year. The initial feedback we're getting at the moment from China is very positive. Demand has picked up substantially from a consumer standpoint. Destocking is happening. Now, as you know, that translates only with a certain time lag. into capex investment decisions at our customer side. But again, we're bringing new technology into the market. We've done that in previous cycles, and so we're confident that it's happening. I'm traveling to China in two weeks to have some discussions directly with customers. And so I think we're cautiously optimistic that the economic development there is obviously substantially stronger than anticipated. Great. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Michael.

The next question comes from from Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.

Good morning, Phil. Thanks. Just a quick question on networking capital. I mean, the lack of advance payments has been quite the drag, so just wondering how you kind of see networking capital, the evolution of the networking capital for the remainder of the year, and potentially related to it, is this kind of affecting your capex plans for the year? And then secondly, I mean, you mentioned price increases that you're already planning in summer. If you could just share a bit more detail there on which kind of ranges of price increases for the year that you would expect. Thank you.

Sure. You know, on networking capital, you're exactly right. I think I would expect inventory to be a source of cash just on the basis of where we are in the cycle in filament. We're going to see that come down versus prior years receivables as well and payables at similar levels. But then there will be a certain drag from lower customer advances on the filament side. I think that the use of cash and networking capital is going to be substantially lower than last year. But I think it's unchanged from what we sort of laid out as expectations at the beginning of the year and the start of the year is broadly in line with those assumptions. Also meaning it does not change our CapEx plans. I do think we have quite a bit of flexibility built into our CapEx phasing, in other words, If we don't see the need to spend certain capex, then we won't. But at the moment, we have some very interesting and promising capex investments from our teams. And like we always said, to the extent that the investments have the right payback, we want to continue to invest into the future. So I think everything from a cash standpoint, from a free cash flow standpoint, unchanged from what we said at the beginning of the year. And then the price increases, it's always a little difficult to give the average. But I would say across the Surface Solutions portfolio, we are thinking about something mid-single-digit price increases for the year. I think there is a certain... And there's obviously different parts of the portfolio. On the material side, it's a larger contract, so it's more in one go and one pricing initiative. On the service side, it's really... individual negotiations and price actions, country by country, customer by customer. But so on average for the year, we're expecting about 4%, and we're obviously only in the early stages of implementing those. But we're thinking about it in two bigger waves, one here in January, February, and then another one in May, May, June.

The next question comes from Alessandro Folletti from Octavian. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. I have a couple as well. First on the prices again, I understand actually you mentioned in the press release that you had bad mix because of material in surface solution. So can you, of this 12% organic growth plus minus that you published, can you say how much it was due to material price surcharges, basically those price increases that simply pass through the company because you adopt the cost of the input materials?

Yeah. Good morning, Alessandro. The material surcharge effect in the quarter is very minor and is also very minor in the overall price guidance that we're giving for the year. So think of significantly below 1%.

All right. That already answers a lot of follow-up questions. Thank you. And then I was wondering on the filament side, you speak about cache preservation from your clients, right? What does that mean exactly? And what are the elements that will allow them to go away from that... from that sort of risk-averse strategy at the moment?

Yeah, it's a good question. I would describe it this way. What you saw midway through the last year is a reduction in demand, especially Chinese domestic demand for their products, for produced filaments. That in turn led to lower sales for them and a price deterioration for them. so that their operating cash margins were very, very slim to partially negative. And I think these are obviously very large, multibillion-dollar companies that have very solid financing, but I think for them to really unlock the next wave of investment decisions, I believe they need to sustainably see them operating again at positive cash operating margins. So in other words, Demand has picked up now. Demand is picking up substantially right now in China. The destocking of the product that was left on shelves has already started significantly starting in January and continued in February, March and April. So I think that leads to higher production again, better cash operating margins for our customers. And then we firmly believe that their investment strategies to continue to invest in broader, more diversified, and more vertically integrated sets of equipment continues. It's completely unchanged from all of our discussions with our customers. And so I think once they look at this more favorable operating environment, they will also greenlight the same investments that they had previously anticipated. We're really thinking about this as a as a postponement versus a change in our customers' behavior.

Right. And may I ask a follow-up here? This is limited to China, that's correct?

Well, of course, you know that 85% of our customers, 80 to 85% of our customers are located in China. But even more specifically, I would say the challenges on the demand side were really largely driven by Chinese domestic consumption this time. Global consumption for discretionary spend was obviously also not significantly up last year, but was remarkably resilient in light of everything we had going on from an inflation standpoint. that would have not caused a problem to our customers. Here we're really talking about Chinese domestic consumption. That was really the change in the outlook or in the operating environment for our customers last year. And that is also the thing that's changing to the more favorable now since the reopening of the Chinese economy towards the end of last year.

All right. And financing is not an issue then? Maybe higher interest and maybe higher cost of financing equipment, etc.

No, we don't see that at the moment. Actually, the financing conditions in China have improved quite significantly versus the second half of last year. And remember, they're obviously looking from an interest rate and inflation standpoint. They are not facing the same challenges as the Western economies in Europe and the U.S.,

Okay, thanks. And my final question, you speak about in your presentation about, if I quote properly, delays in non-filament part of the polymer processing business. Yes, delay investments. What is that?

You know, I think that will depend a little bit on the timing of certain investment decisions. Remember, here the projects are a lot smaller. We are not seeing that yet, but obviously if customers, if large consumer companies are looking at slower, you know, customer demand, discretionary spend, I think those projects can move. At the moment, we're not seeing that. So I think we still have a very, you know, positive outlook on the non-filament side of things and specifically in flow control solutions. around the in-glass acquisition, which we're building out significantly more, the demand environment remains very favorable.

Okay, so control is not impacted, but so we're left with polycondensation and non-woven, basically. That's right. So can you specify more? I believe if you speak about large consumer and discretionary spending, it's more related to polycondensation, packaging materials, and this kind of stuff?

That's exactly right. Non-woven fabrics can also be part of that, but this is usually as it goes into hygiene products and it goes into diapers and those kind of consumables, they're sort of at the maybe at the border of discretionary spending, because typically they have a pretty stable spend behavior.

Great. Thank you very much. Thank you, Alessandro.

The next question comes from Sebastian Kuni from RBC Capital. Please go ahead.

Good morning, gentlemen. Just on the Riri acquisition, could you give us an update on the purchase price, also EBITDA margin impact in Q1 and going forward, and also what it means on the PPA amortization going forward. I can imagine that this is a large chunk of goodwill or intangible assets that you acquired. If you could give an update, it would be great.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for the question, Sebastian. I'll start with just the outlook for REERI. The demand outlook for really is maybe even a bit stronger than what we had anticipated when we did the deal just based on the Chinese consumer, what I mentioned in my remarks. The EBITDA margin is slightly above, you know, the OSS average. And so when you think about what we guided for the year here for Surface Solutions margins around 18 to 18.5 percent, URI is expected to be slightly above that. Um, and, uh, you're right. We're obviously, we are going through the purchase accounting as we speak. Uh, we will, we'll validating those assumptions, obviously also with our auditors, we're not done yet with that analysis. Um, and, uh, you know, of course we will get that into our half year of financial statements. But I don't have any reason to believe that the initial assumptions that we've made from an additional amortization standpoint and so on are changed. So we're still expecting the acquisition to be EPS accretive. and really in line with what we had previously assumed. It's a little bit too early to quantify goodwill exactly and so on because we're going through the valuation of the intangible assets and so on and so forth, but we still think we're going to land close to what we had initially indicated.

So that also means that there's no PPA amortization now included between the EBITDA that you report and the EBITs that you report. Is that correct?

In the future, there will be. At the moment, we have included an estimate there because it's obviously the amortization schedules are not fulfilled. That may be a good point, Sebastian. For the month of March, which is the month that we included, we were obviously not able to completely close the Riri company in line with our closing schedule. So, You know, we basically booked this on a good level of, you know, their financial statements without a full translation and a certain pre-acquisition estimate of all components also similar to purchase accounting and so on. But we will refine that in the second quarter and we'll have a pretty final set of full financials, but also purchase accounting related financials by the time we publish our mid-year results.

And then just to follow up, also on M&A, are there more deals to come? Do you plan to be more accretive now? And what is the focus there that you have? Is it technology, add-ons, new business units?

You know, I think the focus is really unchanged, Sebastian. At the same time, I would say we are very focused on integrating our overall luxury platform in the best way possible. I've always said, you know, you really generate the value from these acquisitions with a very thoughtful and very well-executed integration. Mind you, obviously, we are integrating really into Ehrlichon but also our previous Cordor acquisition together with Miri and really with a common go-to-market strategy. We're very excited about that, but I think we're going to focus as a team for quite some time now on getting that absolutely right. So I would think that that puts some of the other M&A priorities maybe behind. delays them a little bit, I don't anticipate us making any significant M&A here in the next 12 to 18 months.

Maybe one follow-up on OPP. With demand slowing, especially from China, and I guess your competitor in Japan is also looking at the Chinese market very closely, do you see any impact on pricing already? Is there a new price for starting that you had experienced a couple of years ago? Or is it still kind of a stable situation and just the demand is going back? Is there more discipline, let's put it this way, is there more discipline in the competition? Thank you.

Yeah, I think we've learned a lot from, I think, the last time, 2016, 2017, the discussions we're having with clients are actually of quite different nature. Projects that we have been discussing also in terms of commercial terms are still in the same stage. And the discussion we're having is more along the lines of our cost basis to an extent will change as we're looking at an inflationary environment in Europe. In other words, If we had contemplated a transaction for late 2023 that will now occur in 2025, our cost basis is different. And so our clients are very aware that the prices will also be different. I think, you know, the technology differentiation is high. The level of integration of our technology and our systems into the client's final solution is high. So we are not looking at an immediate price competition with our Japanese competitor. And our conversations with our clients are right along those lines. Thank you very much.

The next question comes from Christian Arnold from Stifel's Fights. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning, gentlemen. It's actually Stifel. On your guidance, 23 guidance, which you confirmed, so sales 2.9 to 2.95 at constant currencies, if we take today's currency situation, is it fair to assume that you probably have a negative affixing effect of some between 50 and 100 million in 23 And is it further fair to assume that on easy day margin, there's actually not a material affix, right?

Good morning, Christian. Your assumptions are exactly right. I think if the currencies stayed where they are today, that's approximately the range we would be looking at. Obviously, you know, the euro has deteriorated more against the Swiss franc, as well as the Chinese yuan. but you're also absolutely right that the margin tends to be not impacted by this. When we have revenues in foreign currency, we also have the cost of foreign currency, and so it decreases proportionally.

Okay, thank you very much. Second question on your price increase, your plan for May, June. You were referring to wage inflation as well as higher FHA So talking to other companies, they are rather benefit from lower energy price. So I wonder if you can help here. Where do you see higher energy costs?

Yeah, that's a good question. I would for sure start with the higher wages, and I think that's an important factor that we've known all along, right? And it's well integrated into our plans, but that's probably the biggest factor when you look at the, negotiations with unions and with labor representatives that we have around the world. Obviously, a lot of this is based on the indicators that we've seen over the past 12 months, and so our overall labor increase will be quite substantial in the current year. Again, well-planned and anticipated, but that's the biggest driver. On the energy side, there are some spot markets that are, of course, lower than last year, especially lower than during the spike of energy prices that we've seen about a year ago. Now, we are obviously, during that spike last year, we were impacted only at a relatively minor level because we had hedged a lot of our energy supply contracts in Europe in 2019 for three to four years. As those hedges expire and we are entering into new contracts, the basis for our energy contracts might still be higher. Again, in some cases it's lower, especially where last year we saw some of the hedging counterparties go insolvent and we had to buy in the spot market. That spot market is cheaper now. But to the extent that we're comparing energy costs to the hedging contracts that we entered into in 2019, there might still be a slight increase. Again, I don't think this is an overly material factor, but we're still looking at it when we're talking about the price increases with our customers because this is still, to the extent that prices were based on 2019-20 levels, that's still a base effect that we need to cover with our customers.

Okay, understood. Thank you very much.

The last question comes from Sebastian Vogel from UBS. Please go ahead.

Perfect. I've got three questions. I would ask them one by one, if I may. The first one is on surface solution. Is it possible to quantify the pricing effect on sales and orders from past price increases, how much they have contributed in Q1?

Yeah, I think in Q1, the impact, the year-over-year impact, was below what we had set for the full year. So I set for the full year something close to mid-single digits, and I think it was a little bit below that in the first quarter, when you look at that year-over-year. And that's just due to the phasing of the price increases, so you're going to see more of that in the second, third, and fourth quarters.

Got it. The second one would be on the top-line progression, what you sort of have budgeted for surface solution for the rest of the year. So in that sense, what is your sort of game plan for the second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter compared to Q1? It would be great to hear your thoughts on that one too.

Yeah, you know, when you kind of look at what we've said for the total year guidance, You see year-over-year growth slowing down a little bit. I would also say in the first quarter, we obviously did have some disproportionately high equipment sales. At the same time, the first quarter was quite strong from a sales standpoint. So it'll depend on really the shorter cycle businesses and overall industrial activity to see what the phasing really looks like. I think it was a very promising start to the year when you kind of run rate that out with our usual sequential growth rates. I think that bodes well for the total year outlook for Surface Solutions, but it's maybe a little bit too early to tell.

Got it. And the third question would be on the auto side within Surface Solutions. In that regard, I was wondering, I mean, it seems like some other competitors or peers in the industry have seen sort of better revenue numbers in Q1 than what you have seen there. I was wondering, did you see or do you have some sort of special angle in mind that could explain that? You're saying on the orders development? Oh, sorry, on the auto side, sorry. Auto as a sub-market and surface solution.

Yeah, I think for us, this is obviously... I try to elaborate on that. We are seeing those positive indicators, too. To the extent that our service business is directly production-related, we will see a little bit of delay in demand for our services as destocking of already produced components happens. But we actually see a very similar picture to some of the other competitors and suppliers in the auto industry where demand is picking up quite substantially and demand for our services maybe with a slight time delay, but specifically when I look here at the second quarter and the read-through both in Europe and in China specifically, A week through also for the third and to a large extent, the fourth quarter is quite positive. And so we're looking at increased order demand as we move through the year here.

Got it. Many thanks. Well, if I may slip in one follow-up question on the polymer processing side of things. When you talk about the uptick in order intake, do we expect that will, by when or how quickly do we expect that will sort of materialize and save, I guess, normally like six months, but do you think given your sort of capacity utilization can be somewhere quicker or so? Is that a fair thought in that context?

You know, usually we talk about on the large equipment orders about a 12-month cycle time. Of course, we are doing a percentage of completion accounting, so that can sometimes help a little bit sooner. And very importantly, we're also very thoughtful about how we bring capacity back. So I think, you know, there's one of the key focus areas for us to be able to ramp back up when demand returns. And so I usually say 12 months, but it could be a little sooner.

Got it. Many thanks for asking all my questions.

Great. So thank you, everybody. This concludes today's call. In case of further questions, don't hesitate to contact us in the IR team. Thank you for your attention today and goodbye.