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Anglo American plc
2/20/2026
Okay, good morning, everyone, and very warm welcome to Anglo-American's 2025 results presentation. Just a few words from me before I hand over to Duncan and John. Of course, first, as always, safety. It's our very first value and our number one priority. And we are making very, very good progress. We recorded our lowest ever total recordable injury frequency rate last year. But in spite of this great progress, we actually had two workplace fatalities last year. Tragic and, of course, unacceptable. Duncan will mention this and talk a little more about it in his presentation, but let me add that we cannot and will not rest until we are consistently achieving zero harm. So now, as many of you know, 2025 was a year of transformational progress at Anglo-American. We've executed major portfolio changes to unlock substantial value for our shareholders, and that has paved the way for what we now see as the next step in our journey and our strategic phase of value creation. And that is, of course, to form a global minerals champion in the shape of Anglo Tech, setting up exceptional investment exposure to copper in particular. Now, whilst offering compelling value, of course, through the exceptional synergies, both industrial and other, this combined entity will be set up also to create long-term value based on the many things that these two companies have done so well over so many years, focusing on safety and health, being responsible and inclusive, environmental stewardship and social progress for our many stakeholders. Our board looks very much forward to progressing this formidable combination towards completion once we have received the final outstanding approvals. Briefly on board changes, Anne Wade joined our board at the beginning of last year as a non-executive director, joining also our audit and our sustainability committees. She's already made a significant contribution to our board discussions, particularly bearing in mind her deep buy-side capital markets experience. And then in December, Hicksonia Niasulu stepped down after six years with the board, And we thank Exonia for many contributions to our discussions over that time. Thank you. That's it from me. Let me now hand over to our CEO, Duncan Womblad. Duncan. Thanks, sir.
Good morning again to everybody, and thank you for that introduction, Stuart. As Stuart said, a pretty big year for us in 2025, and one that I do think was pretty transformational in the context of Anglo-Americans' history. We had significant strategic delivery, laying very strong foundations for the next phase of our journey, which will be in the form of Anglo-Tech. Now, those of you who are regular attendees at our results will recognize this slide particularly. It is the three pillars of our strategy, which is operational excellence, portfolio optimization, and growth. And these are the key drivers of how we move this business forward. And 2025, as I said, was a year with substantial execution progress against each one of these three objectives. Okay. My pages got stuck together, so I nearly got to the conclusion. questions, Jason. Starting off with operational excellence, our focus was unwavering here and I believe continues to drive the right results for us. We've got very high quality assets and we are running them very well with a focus on maximizing returns for the long run, which is after all and after safety the most crucial deliverable for our shareholders. Our copper and iron ore businesses have performed very well, delivered on their 2025 production guidance, with effective cost control across the businesses, seeing us deliver our cost savings targets, and John will talk about those a little bit later. Now, these cost savings were supported by the delivery of the recent head office transformation program that we ran, which resulted in a 21% headcount reduction. The growing stability in our asset base is allowing us to better identify and manage risks early, and also to increasingly realize opportunities within the businesses. The evolution of our culture to prioritize and drive local accountability, where people on the ground actually have the power to shape the best outcomes, is enabling these results. The portfolio optimization also took great strides forward during the course of last year, and I'm thrilled with the execution of the PGM's demerger. The successful demerger of Altera and the full sell-down of our residual 19.9% stake has helped to unlock material value for our shareholders, and of course, very helpfully, we raised approximately $2.5 billion out of those sell-downs, which went a long way to helping us deliver our balance sheet. We continue to work towards streamlining the business, and I'm going to talk a little bit more on that later on when we get to the transactions underway. Copper is absolutely at the forefront of our growth ambitions. Finalizing the agreement with Codelco to implement a joint mine plan for our adjacent operations, Los Bronces and Andina, was a truly remarkable transaction. It in and of itself unlocks $5 billion of pre-tax value across the complex and more copper tons for both companies as well as for Chile with minimal incremental capex. We've demonstrated what is possible when we can come together as an industry and partner with each other. And that translates, I believe, into compelling industrial synergies with huge significant upsides. And finally, we announced the merger with Tech to create a global critical minerals champion. The merger will position us in an increasingly competitive landscape to be able to create substantial value through industrial and financial synergies and cement the combined company as a world-leading copper producer. Now, since announcing the merger in September of last year, we've made very good progress in forming Anglo Tech. Over the recent months, we've achieved several major milestones. First, overwhelming support from our shareholders on both sides. Several major regulatory approvals have already been secured, including the approval under the Investment Canada Act at the end of last year. Our focus now is, of course, moving to integration planning. and that is progressing at pace as we work together with tech to find the optimal organizational structures, the optimal systems and processes that will make this the most outstanding business in the sector. We have had fruitful conversations in the context of integration planning, as I said. The new board and management team will be formed on completion, and we are aiming to hit the ground running in Vancouver from day one. I will continue to oversee the crucial integration work together with Jonathan that our teams are now progressing jointly ahead of closing. I would hope that everyone will understand that this is going to now take some time during the course of this year, which will mean that we're not going to have a lot of new news, publicly certainly anyway, until we get much further along this process. We still do expect completion around 12 to 18 months from the date of announcement. So closing, our best estimate remains now somewhere between September of this year and March of next. Real processes still to happen are the regulatory processes, which include China. So we've got South Korea and China to go. These processes are on track, and we'll update you all as that happens. Once these processes are cleared, we would expect the path to completion to be relatively swift, with the $4.5 billion special dividend payable to the Anglo-American shareholders of record on or around completion. I remain really excited by the benefits that this merger is going to deliver. Now moving to safety, and as Stuart said, this is absolutely our first priority and will continue to be our first priority. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there isn't a single ton of any material that we produce that is worth the cost of a human life. And during the first half of this year, we sadly had to report two fatalities in separate incidents at our managed operation. One was in Brazil, a projects contractor working on our filtration plant in Minas Rio, who fell from heights, and the other in an LHD accident in Unki in Zimbabwe, just prior to the demerger of Altera. These tragedies weigh very heavily on all of us and in the starkest terms, I think, remind us of the critical importance of running a safe business. There is always going to be more work to do, but I am encouraged by the improvement that we're seeing in our injury rates across the business. With the frequency rates now, as Stuart said, down to the lowest recordable levels in the history of the company and 20% lower than they were last year. We're driving on the right path with the right trajectory, and this is enabled by the critical action programs that we've installed in the business and further strengthen our focus on the most impactful safety actions, as well as leaders having the time to spend in the field and more meaningfully engage with the frontline teams and specifically on safety. In 2026, We're going to continue to strengthen that approach with our leaders and allowing them to spend even more time in the field. We do this by, as I said to you a couple of years ago, ruthlessly prioritizing their work and simplifying the work that they need to do. And that gives them time to properly engage with the people doing the work, not only in a one-way conversation, but in a two-way conversation that helps us understand better how we can design the work for people to execute. These changes reflect our unwavering commitment to safety as the foundation of stable, predictable and high-quality performance. We have more work to do here, of course, but the progress is clear and our focus remains firm. Turning then to our operational performance and our outlook, I'm very pleased with the performance that we've seen in our copper business during its 2025 and the fact that it met its production guidance. In copper Chile, as you know, Koyawasi will be going through a much lower grade phase in 2026 with performance expected to improve significantly from 2027 onwards as they access the fresh ore in the Rosario pit. Pleasingly, we are also seeing the benefits of our previous reset to the Los Bronces mine plan, and that has restored both optionality and flexibility within that business. The team has delivered really well on the development of Dinosaur 2, Denorso II, as you all know now, is the next production phase of the mine, and it is characterized by much higher grades than where we're mining today and slightly softer ores. So coupled with the very strict cost control and discipline that's being embedded across the business, this has enabled us to reassess the economics of restarting the second plant at Los Bronces in light of the current copper price environment. So we have now restarted that plant, and it will deliver cash generative tons throughout 2026, but we will need to shut it down again, of course, at the end of the year, because we need the water that we use to run that plant to move a tailings dam to be consistent with our GISTM commitments. That's the Peres Caldera tailings dam. We will then obviously have a lot more flexibility on restarting this plant again permanently when we combine the two mines, Andina and Los Bronces, closer to the end of the decade. Our newest copper mine in the portfolio, Kiweco, has delivered strong operational financial results, with throughput exceeding the design capacity. And while we continue to increase our understanding of this ore body, which is pretty typical for new mines, Kiweco remains positioned as a high-quality, high-cash flow generative asset, operating stably, producing around 300,000 tonnes of copper a year in the coming years. And although Kiveco is not going to have the same long-term grade benefit that will accrue to the likes of Akoyawasi or Los Bronces over time, the mine is an absolutely key asset in the portfolio and provides a very strong base for expansion in Peru. We are now entering a phase where we should see rising copper volumes without doing too much differently. The stripping at Koyawasi will have caught up and we will be fully into Denosa II at Los Bronces. This should drive around 125,000 tonnes of lower risk growth in the short term. After 2028, we will be approaching the integration for our two major JVs, leading to the next leg of growth, which I'm going to speak about a bit later. And then the new Anglo-Tech will also have substantial optionality into the future. turning to the iron ore business, which has been demonstrating consistent and strong performance. In South Africa, at Kumba, preparations are now well underway for the UHDMS tie-in, which is set to happen later this year at Sishun. That project is progressing to plan and on budget, and we see the production... will be down around 4 million tonnes during the course of this year as we do that tie-in, because the DMS plant is offline as we do it. We have, however, prepared and do have ample stock available, which we will draw down on during this tie-in period, and therefore we should see sustained sales volumes to similar levels of those that we achieved in 2025 as a result. This is a project that is going to significantly increase the proportion of premium quality iron ore as it ramps up to full capacity by the end of 2028 and allows for more flexibility in our mining. We retain conviction in the long-term demand fundamentals for higher quality products where we expect to see increased price realisations as steelmakers decarbonise and as steel markets evolve. Our Brazilian iron ore operation at Minas Rio has really been the star of operational excellence during the course of this year. Despite the impact of the planned pipeline inspection, which was conducted in August of this year, production was broadly flat versus prior year. This is a testament to the focus of the team on continuous improvement to optimize an integrated system. This operational effectiveness will especially be helpful from 2028 onwards when the mine transitions from its current ore body in the softer friable ores into areas with much more feed variability. Work to integrate even higher quality DR grade serpentina resources to supplement the production in 2030 is progressing well. Turning now to portfolio optimization. In steelmaking coal at Marambar North, following a very long journey with a number of stakeholders, which include our own workforce, the regulatory authorities in the form of the RSHQ, and other industry safety and health representatives, we're very pleased to receive regulatory approval for a remote start of these operations back in November of last year. And in the last couple of weeks, so beginning of February, we received the final lifting of the directives by the regulator, which now enable the mine to ramp up in the normal course to full production. There is also good news from Grosvenor. We secured approval for the first stage reentry back in August, and that enabled visual inspections, which then confirmed limited damage to critical infrastructure as a result of the fire there several years ago. The teams are now developing plans for a restart, which could enable long-wall production to recommence from as early as 2027 under new ownership. Off the back of solid operational progress and the strong inbound interest that we have received over the last few months, we restarted the formal sales process at the end of last year. The first phase of the new tender process commenced in early January, with us aiming to achieve an announcement of a sale during the second quarter of this year, and we are targeting completion by the end of this year. There is healthy interest in our steelmaking coal assets. Long-term supply and demand fundamentals remain relatively attractive for this sector, and prices have recovered in recent days. In nickel, we signed a definitive agreement with MMG back in February of last year for proceeds of up to half a billion dollars. The regulatory processes to complete the sale for the business are continuing. And now we have the final stage to go, which is the European Commission. But they have progressed this now into a phase two review. So both MMG and Anglo-American are working very closely with the European Union to ensure that they have a complete understanding. of what we believe a transaction, that this transaction means to the market, and one where we believe it preserves and actually may even enhance market competition. Lastly, a word on De Beers, where we have now a very well-progressed and responsible exit in the advanced stages of discussions with a select group of interested parties. All of these parties are strategic and we are at the back end of our formal processes. We continue to have very constructive discussions with the government of Botswana, who of course are going to be crucial in the determination of the end point of this process. With respect to diamond markets, although we have seen stability in the end market for natural diamond jewelry over the last six months or so, the diamond market remains very challenged, exacerbated by the increased supply, specifically from Angola, and tariffs-driven uncertainty. We are focused first and foremost on achieving a responsible exit, but we will continue to work closely with the De Beers team on the actions required to optimize cash flow performance both now and over time. And as I've said before, with some of the best diamond mines, as well as resources and marketing capabilities in the world, De Beers is very well positioned to emerge and thrive as the market leader and as the market recovers. We continue to believe that there is significant upside potential to this business for the right owners, and we continue to keep the market abreast of these developments. And with that, I'll hand over to you now, John, just to take us through the 25 financial performance and the guidance.
Thank you, Duncan, and good morning, everyone. I'm pleased with the financial performance of the business for this year. We delivered on our production and cost guidance, as well as our $1.8 billion cost-out programme, and saw further reductions in working capital. This focus on total costs and cash is now firmly embedded throughout the organisation and our performance management processes. These achievements are all evident in our financial results, but of course, as we progress through the portfolio transformation, the financial reporting again is complex. This slide aims to try and help navigate through that complexity. Our continuing operations include our end-state simplified business, but also include De Beers at least until the sales process is further advanced. While our discontinued operations include include PGMs up to the demerger in May of last year, as well as steelmaking coal and nickel. So continuing operations EBITDA of $6.4 billion and earnings of $0.9 billion are not fully reflective of the high-quality financial profile of the go-forward business. The simplified business, focused on copper and premium iron ore, delivered $6.9 billion of EBITDA, 44% EBITDA margin, and underlying earnings of $1.6 billion, benefiting from strong realised prices and delivery over cost savings. De Beers reported negative half a billion of EBITDA, and I'll come back to that in more detail later. The discontinued operations generated $0.1 billion of EBITDA in a year, reflecting five months of earnings from PGMs before the demerger, partially offset by losses in steelmaking coal following the operational incident at Moranbah North. The effective tax rate for continuing operations was 52%. This reflects the impact of De Beers rather than any underlying tax rates, with the go-forward simplified portfolio tax rate being 39%, as I'll explain shortly. The combination of continuing and discontinued operations has resulted in underlying earnings per share of 54 cents, which translates into full-year dividends of 23 cents per share, in line with our 40% payout policy. That includes the final dividend declared by the Board of 16 cents to be paid following shareholder approval at the beginning of May. I'll now move on to talk through each of these areas in a bit more detail. Starting with the simplified portfolio, we've delivered a strong set of results. Our basket price was up 2% as higher LME copper prices were partially offset by lower benchmark iron ore prices. Realised prices, however, were up in both businesses, benefiting from provisional pricing impacts. Production was down 4%, mainly due to lower ore grades and recoveries at Kolowasi, as we processed stockpiles while developing the mine towards the sustainable higher grades, expected from late 2026. There was also an impact from lower plant throughput at Los Bronces, as the smaller processing plant was on care and maintenance. Despite the lower production, revenue increased by 4% due to the higher realised prices and, when combined with our focus on costs, this flowed through to generate EBITDA of 6.9 billion, a 9% increase year-on-year. As you can see from the slide, copper and premium iron ore contributed $4 billion and $2.9 billion respectively. Consequently, our EBITDA margin improved two percentage points to 44%, with return on capital also higher at 17%. Underlying earnings increased by 1% to £1.6 billion, with higher net finance costs partially offsetting the benefit from a lower effective tax rate, with the simplified portfolio of 39%. This reduction in tax is driven by our lower unrecovered corporate costs and is broadly reflective of the blended rate across our operating jurisdictions. looking specifically now at our unit costs. In copper, we benefited from lower TCRCs, partially offsetting the impact of lower production from Kolowase. Kiaveco delivered another standout performance with unit costs of only 89 cents per pound. In our premium iron ore business, Coomba was broadly flat year on year, while Minas Rio incurred higher costs from the planned pipeline inspection activities. And as you've heard me before say, I know the industry focuses on unit cost reporting, but we're focused on managing the total cost base. And on that basis, I'm pleased to show only a 1% increase year on year, reflecting good cost management across the business, as well as the impact of lower volumes, which offset the impacts of stronger producer currencies, CPI and one-off impacts such as increases in rehabilitation provisions. Looking now into the drivers of our continuing EBITDA after stripping out the impact of De Beers. Favourable realised pricing in copper and premium iron ore resulted in a $1 billion EBITDA uplift. That was partly offset by the stronger South African rand and CPI inflation, which together impacted EBITDA by $0.3 billion, while lower volumes from copper chilli had another $0.3 billion impact. However, I'm delighted once again with our focus on cost savings this year. We realise gross cost savings of $0.6 billion, while cost headwinds of $0.2 billion, primarily from additional stripping at Kolowasi, were fully offset by that $2.0.2 billion benefit from lower copper TCRCs. The other bucket mainly reflects the non-operational impact of increases in long-term rehabilitation provisions for Copper Chilli, bringing EBITDA to $6.4 billion. Over the last two and a half years, we've committed to delivering total cost savings of $1.8 billion across our business operations, corporate overheads and initiatives. As a reminder, in 2024 we realised $1 billion of savings and had a run rate of $1.3 billion coming into 2025. We targeted to realise an incremental half a billion in 2025 and have managed to deliver slightly ahead of that at 0.6. That reflects 0.2 billion of operational savings from the business as well as 0.4 from corporate restructuring and initiatives. So we now stand with realized savings of $1.6 billion, and we've executed all the initiatives needed to achieve the total $1.8 billion, with the final 0.2 before the impact of dis-synergies, also of around $0.2 billion, to be realized in 2026. Of course, we've embedded a strong cost culture through the organization and our core processes, which will support continuous improvement going forward, including through the Anglo-Tech integration process. Now moving on to our exiting business, starting with De Beers. Market conditions continue to be challenging, driven by the impact of lab-grown diamonds, US tariffs and increased supply. As we came into the year, we were very focused on ensuring that De Beers was self-sufficient from a cash perspective. This meant that we undertook initial cost-out initiatives and drove inventory down by both managing production closely and responsibly increasing sales. You can clearly see the impact of these actions in the results. Sales volumes and revenues are up despite lower prices, while unit costs are down 8%. These actions could not offset the lower pricing environment and so EBITDA was a loss of half a billion dollars compared to breakeven last year. However, the fact that we fulfilled a large portion of those sales from inventory meant that we reduced that inventory by 0.9 billion dollars in the year and kept the business at broadly cash breakeven. This means that we now have midstream inventory at broadly normalised levels. As part of our year-end processes, we undertook an impairment review of De Beers and have recognised a $2.3 billion impairment within special items. This reflects our latest views on the near-term adverse macroeconomic conditions and industry-specific challenges. Since last year, the key changes are largely attributable to an extended period of lower rough diamond prices, driven by a slower differentiation of lab-grown and natural diamond markets, continued weak China demand and increased supply. The impairment, along with other movements in capital employed, brings the carrying value of De Beers as a whole to $2.3 billion, of which our attributable share is $1.9 billion. As we move into 2026, we will continue to focus on cash preservation. With less opportunity to release cash from inventory, we will be very focused on taking action to reduce structural costs and capital as we transition through this challenging market period and towards exit. Briefly touching on our discontinued operations, EBITDA was $0.1 billion, reflecting lower PGM's earnings with only five months consolidated in 2025. and those five months being impacted by the flooding at Amanda Belt. This was offset by a loss in steelmaking coal, given the impact of Moranbah and Grosvenor. This translated into an underlying loss of $0.3 billion. There was then the loss on demerger of PGMs that were reported in the first half of $2.2 billion, which drove the statutory loss of $2.5 billion. The net cash impact from discontinued operations was a $0.7 billion outflow for the full year, and I will explain this in a subsequent slide. We continued to maintain a strong focus on cash generation. Our sustaining attributable free cash flow benefited from $0.6 billion working capital inflow, primarily from that reduction in diamond inventories. Excluding that benefit from De Beers, the go-forward business kept working capital broadly flat, which was a good achievement given the increased copper prices. This resulted in the conversion of operating profit to cash, including sustaining capex of 107% for continuing operations as a whole and 91% for the go-forward business. And this left sustaining attributable free cash flow for the year at $1.4 billion. Moving on to net debt, we've seen a £2 billion reduction to £8.6 billion. The sustaining attributable free cash flow generated by the continuing operations of $1.4 billion more than funded growth capex as well as returns to shareholders. Discontinued operations resulted in a net cash outflow of $0.6 billion, reflecting the Gelanda proceeds, offset by the impact of the PGM's demerger and the negative cash cost of steelmaking coal following those operational incidents. The overall reduction in net debt was therefore largely driven by the $2.4 billion proceeds from the sale of the residual 19.9% stake in Volterra, which happened in September 2019, and leaves net debt to EBITDA at 1.3 times. Excluding shareholder loans, net debt stands at $6.8 billion. The group continues to have a strong liquidity position, and I would expect to see leverage come down further as we conclude the remaining portfolio transactions, coupled with the strong underlying momentum in the go-forward business. On capital expenditure, we took decisive action in 2024 to reduce capex and rationalise the spend, and we've seen a 16% decrease in our capex in continuing operations to $3.3 billion, which was below our guidance. This has been supported by the establishment of our projects group, who manage a significant portion of our spend, thereby driving efficiency and effectiveness benefits across the group. Growth capex included $0.3 billion at Woodsmith, as well as spend for the Colomassie D bottlenecking and the Coomba UHDMS project, with the reduction year-on-year driven by our slowed approach at Woodsmith. Excluding the beers, the capex for the simplified portfolio was $3 billion. Turning now to our guidance. In 2026, our copper unit costs will increase to around 172 cents per pound from 150%. This is mainly due to the impact of a stronger currency, where we're assuming 860 Chilean pesos and 3.2 Peruvian sol to the US dollar, and in part due to the change in production mix between Los Bronces and Coluasi. Our premium iron ore unit cost will be around $41 per tonne, once again predominantly driven by stronger producer currencies with 16 rand, and 5.3 Brazilian real to the dollar incorporated, but also reflecting the tie-in of the tailings filtration plant in Minas Rio. On our other 2026 guidance, the group underlying effective tax rate for our continuing operations is expected to be between 44% and 48%, subject to the mix of profits and timing of the exit of debiers from the portfolio. It's not shown in the slide, but our long-term guidance for the simplified portfolio excluding the beers remains unchanged at 38% to 42%, in line with the 2025 outcome that I shared earlier. Continuing depreciation will be between $2.4 and $2.6 billion, a slight increase from 2025, reflecting some major projects coming online in copper, such as the Koloassi desalination plant. From a cash flow perspective, next year we're expecting around $0.2 billion of restructuring and merger costs. And from a net debt perspective, we expect a one-off non-cash impact of half a billion dollars from the recognition of lease liabilities associated with the Los Bronces integrated water solution project that will ramp up during this year. Moving on now to CAPEX, clearly all of our capital allocation decisions for 2027 and beyond will be shaped by the merger with TEC, which will only be determined by the new board in the period post-completion. As such, our CAPEX and asset plans will, of course, be subject to revision in due course. But in the meantime, we expect CAPEX for the next three years for the simplified portfolio to range between $2.6 and $3.1 billion, which is very close to our previous guidance. We also expect De Beers CapEx to be around half a billion dollars in 2026 similar to previous guidance but slightly higher than 2025 due to deferred spend at Venetia Underground although we will obviously be keeping that under close review. Sustaining CapEx for the simplified portfolio over the long term will be around two billion dollars per annum with fluctuations over the next few years reflecting modestly higher stay in business CapEx across a few of the businesses. On our growth capex over the next three years relative to previous gains, we're seeing lower capital spend come through in copper due to the Los Brontes and Dena joint mine plan and the potential Koloassi QB adjacency as we pursue more capital efficient options. On Woodsmith, we will be spending less than in 2025 at $250 million of capex in 2026 and 2027, in addition to $50 million of opex as we continue to work towards having at least a real option for consideration over the coming years. This is, of course, still guided by our three conditions needed to move towards final investment decision. Those three conditions being a completed feasibility study, having the project syndicated and our balance sheet being in robust financial health. This will be in 2028 at the earliest, at which time the Board of Anglo-Tech will be able to consider this project within the context of the wider portfolio. To finish off, I'll recap briefly on the key financial messages. Our focus on safe and stable operations, as well as structured cost control, is driving strong EBITDA margins across our copper and premium iron ore businesses. We've successfully delivered our $1.8 billion cost-out programme, with real life savings in 2025 slightly ahead of plan. Strong cash conversion reflects our focus on working capital management and capital efficiency, and together with the proceeds from the sell-down of our stake in Volterra, we reduce net debt by $2 billion, with further deleveraging expected as we secure proceeds from the divestments of SMC, Nickel and De Beers. All of this means we look forward with confidence as our reshape portfolio will deliver higher margins, higher cash conversion and higher returns on capital employed. Thank you, and I'll now hand back to Duncan.
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