Conduit Holdings Limited

So hopefully everybody's been able to join. And thank you very much. And we're excited about being able to announce our Q3. It's been a very interesting quarter for the sector. And so as usual, we'll be recording the session and putting it up on the website. We'll go through a presentation and then open up for questions and answers at the end. And so without further ado, Neil, do you want to? Indeed. Caroline, do you want to go through to the first slide?

Right. So, yeah, we're very pleased with these numbers, premiums on track. We talked a lot about the higher quota share weighting and what that really did was that gave us the foundation and it gave us the diversification which leads to the losses which are fairly modest by comparison to some market announcements. What I do think is happening is that the market, these losses are serious. They will definitely affect the reinsurance market. So I'm optimistic about future rates. I don't expect any surprises on the downside. And this renewal season is going to be absolutely fascinating. The investment strategy, we've just done what we said. Elaine will take you through that. We've done a lot of work in the last 12 months. You know, the operating platform, the IT, getting these offices I'm sitting in Bermuda, There's been a fantastic amount of work done by the team. So we're very pleased with the operating platform. And then we finally just reiterate that we did what we said we would do and we have paid a dividend. So with that, I'll pass over to Trevor. Okay.

Morning all. Yeah, so in terms of performance to date around the business actually written, ultimate premiums, 387. The team has worked very hard through the quarter. We still get a really good flow of business. Even though it's a relatively quiet time in the industry, that's been key to our success. Year to date, we're probably looking at the best part of a thousand risks that we've seen through the doors of Conduit. So that has enabled us to, I think, continue to, if you like, sift and reselect as we've gone through. So it's been a great performance from the team, good pipeline still in place and through the remaining two and a half months of the year we will be approaching pretty much close to our final plan number. Sort of the business we've spoken before, having the predominance of Kodo Share versus Excel, two reasons for that. One was effectively us deploying our capital into able positive rate space. We took that decision very early with some of the classes that a better place to be sitting rather than in what we viewed as barely adequate or mildly adequate excess of loss. So in doing that, we think we've positioned the business to get maximum benefit from ground up rate. But also, it's enabled us to, if you like, balance out and diversify the portfolio. And I use the language, we knock some of the volatility out of some of those classes by compressing some of the limits in the credit share space. And that's paid some dividends, as I'll explain in a moment on the cap results. So in the business, property had a good quarter. There's been opportunities that we've seen there. So that's moved ahead of plan. Casualty is broadly on as essentially the total mix. And specialty, I have commented before in previous meetings and sessions that we've had, specialty has just lagged more generally in the market. It's a broader mix, some tougher classes, and I think post-COVID and coming into this year, a number of those classes have still been pretty tough to underwrite. The team's done well to pick their way through it, but that has, if you like, suffered in terms of our GWP versus our plan number. On the geographic split, just a word on this. This is based around domicile of seed. And so we fundamentally have more than 1.9% in total written European business, but it sits within that worldwide component of 33. So I think going forward, we will probably have to provide a bit more clarity around geographic split of the risk rather than just pure domicile. But in the main, it is showing that the business that we've seen with clients out of North America have generally been more favourable. We've matched with those contract structures and treaty terms more often frequently have in Europe and in the Far East, although we've got actually a reasonable presence in areas like Japan where the team made good abodes earlier on in the year in the April renewals. hit rate of 23%. We've referred to that before. That's a fairly steady state number through the last couple of quarters. And as I've said, you know, we've seen getting on our year to date, probably best part of a thousand risks and 200, just over 200 contracts bound through Q3. and final word at the end around some of the classes such as cyber it's worth just reiterating yes we watch the class of cyber and some of these other niche classes in the case of cyber it's still got a way to go we think in terms of policy wordings and the format in which we can write that business and get some sort of control around the ultimate systemic but prices are moving and we watch it almost sort of quarter to quarter Just moving on, next slide. Market loss events. Obviously, you've seen the R&S. Our numbers that we've got on the two peak events of Europe, floods and Ida, we think validates our approach. We've always set out to... participate in the market generally, but keep those peak zones and peak perils within a reasonable boundary. So I think for us, being able to produce a net loss at just under 3% of capital I think that validates that approach. European floods as a loss, $12.8 million, net of reinsurance and recoveries. During the quarter, it moved a fair bit in the industry. I think when we look back, probably the start of the quarter, It was figures of seven, eight, nine were being quoted. It's now nine to 12. So our loss to a degree has grown with that to this 12.8 number during the course of the quarter. Really, as clients have done their own data collection, data analysis, picked up better intel and insights into where the loss has come from and passed that through to us. Hurricane Ida, it's actually a pretty complex loss, you know, obviously, you're running from Louisiana or through the States and ending up in the northeast, you know, brought in commercial, residential, auto in some of the programs which we don't participate on, and then also specific flood coverage. with the NFIP up in the Northeast. So complex loss, you know, our approach to it, we have very specific clients that operate in specific regions and we know what we have from them. And that's the way in which, you know, we've been able to build the picture of the loss, very comfortable with the loss estimate we've got around this. And 15.8, again, net of reinsured recoveries and reinstatements. So we're pleased with that outcome. Next slide, please. So on the pricing slide, this is one which we've shown consistently through. It is appropriate to us in that Marsh operate a very large commercial pricing index, embracing both property and casualty. During the quarter, it's held firm at 15. It's just been It's still an increase over quarter to quarter, but the rate of increases seems to be holding around about 15 across them. And then if you move on to the next slide, it's basically showing these are year to date cumulative numbers, but it's showing that we're still getting a solid level of increase through the quarter. or indices measure pure rate, essentially. We always point out that underlying the rate change, there's an attendant matching terms and conditions movement. If rates are down, then generally terms and conditions are down. And we're seeing that certainly in property classes and property submissions, we've seen when the rate's up, we're still able to, shall we say, squeeze and negotiate Thanks.

So last quarter we updated you that we had fully funded our investment managers through the second quarter. We're now fully invested and portfolio positioning is broadly where we want it to be. There's a chart on the bottom left hand corner there shows you the asset split. No real surprises in there. double A minus credit rating on that. If anything, we're probably a little bit shorter in terms of duration just now than we'd initially anticipated at 2.4 years. But given the rate outlook, we're pretty happy to stay a bit shorter at the moment. Return for the year to date is 0.2%. And most of that was generated in the third quarter. And that's just a reflection of our timing in terms of getting invested. But overall, not anticipating any changes in strategy. we're just executing what we said that we would do now and don't expect to have too many changes around the portfolio structure. So then the next slide on operations. We mentioned last quarter that there'd been a lot of work across the company on system implementation, and that work continued through the third quarter. We've made a lot of good progress in a lot of areas. Still a lot of work to do over the rest of this year and into next, but pretty happy with where we're sitting at the moment. We've also had a few more people joining the team, so we're now up to around 40 people, and we do have a few more who are currently serving notice periods waiting to join us. So overall, really happy with the way that the team's coming together there. And I'll hand back to Neil on ESG.

So next slide, please. Yeah, so we've done a lot of work on this. And there's two main work streams. One is to support climate-wise, which is the insurance market initiative on the E bit of ESG. There's about 40 of the biggest insurers in the market who are part of this. And it requires measurement of our carbon footprint. It requires us to... to form a reporting structure. We've also taken part in the Sustainable Market Initiative, which is the insurance section that's headed up by John Neil. And there's once again, a coalition of some of the biggest insurers in the world. The work streams are innovation on new products, which address climate change, Post-disaster response, which is absolutely vital, as we've seen with situations like IDA. Evaluation of one's own carbon footprint, but also looking at the carbon intensity of underwriting portfolios, which is work in progress. We will be net zero from day one. We have offset our carbon. The foundation, we have a charitable foundation. We will be making our first donations, very much focused in Bermuda around the themes of youth, education, education, and the environment. In terms of our SBIT, 50% of our staff is female. Michelle Seymour-Smith, the group board. She worked at Arch, which you will all know, it's a company that we have a great deal of respect for. That's where Trevor spent a few years underwriting. So that's the update on ESG. Next slide. So effectively, the underwriting plan, I mean, I'm personally absolutely delighted. I think the team have done a fantastic job. And the whole theme, which I think you will have seen on previous announcements, is we have so far done exactly what we said, with the exception of writing more quota share, which was a decision we took consciously. That does create a lag in earnings, but you've seen the benefit in terms of the diversity and the stability, which was one of the things that we said we would do when we IPO'd. strong team, our people are our most important asset. And hopefully the brand is developing out since the reputation is being established. And the last point we make is that we did actually, we went and paid the dividend. We said we would pay for H1. So with that, I think we will hand over to you guys to ask questions.

So if you want to use the hands up, I see Ben straight in there, so we can start with Ben, thanks very much. Don't forget to take, press hands down afterwards, otherwise you'll have to ask lots of questions. Hi, Ben. Caroline, will you unmute Ben? Yeah, thanks.

I think I'm unmuted now. I had two questions, please. My first question was, I think at the time of the IPO, the plan that you set out, the sort of the multi-year plan, I think you were quite clear that that was based on kind of 2020, your expectations for 2021 pricing. I just wonder where we sit now. Maybe there are raised expectations for pricing next year. Do you think you could exceed the plan looking into next year in terms of premium? That would be my first question. The second question related, in terms of the catastrophe exposure that you are taking on at the moment, how much repricing do you think there will need to be at 1-1 renewals for you to materially increase your exposure. To put it another way, how close do you think we are to actually reasonably attractive pricing in this market, given the losses that you've seen year to date? Thank you.

Ben, thank you. I mean, my first response is I am personally really quite optimistic about the year end and where rates could go. And I said in the presentation, I don't expect any surprises on the downside. I don't think that in terms of adjusting our expectations or making forecasts about next year I think we're really happy with the plans we have and at this stage we are in the first week and a half really of seeing the year-ending renewals. I would want to get a much firmer picture of how that renewal season goes before we commit. But, I mean, where you're right is that there is, I think, some real... Certain parts of the reinsurance market are going to pay some substantial claims, and I think that leads me to be optimistic about rates. That's a sentiment.

Yeah. when you consider the volume of risk that we've seen on the property side, let's say, we've been able to build a portfolio to the extent that we wanted to this year, to the limits which we had agreed, by sifting through an enormous amount of risk. What's going to happen, we think, for next year is, particularly in the US post-Ida, with improved rate but there are a significant number of other if you like business submissions that we saw that were probably just about kind of you know the hurdle um they will now fall into the acceptable territory so plus we haven't got to go looking for this business it's do what we've done this year right from scratch. And of course, you look into Europe. Europe, we have spent the year largely declining cap business out of Europe. We've seen an enormous amount of submissions and it has just been a belief. We just haven't been able to match on severity of frequency. the obviously that that domain is largely led outside of conduit and that market pricing is set elsewhere. So, you know, we will see that business again. It remains to be seen what that market will do, but I would expect probably our pure European business to at least take some sort of uptake next year, just on the back of the floods. I should be very disappointed, you know, in the market, I think as we all would be if it doesn't have that uptake.

Thank you. Thanks very much.

Thanks, Ben. Trifidus, I think you were next. So go ahead.

And congratulations on this long year to date. Just two questions for me. The first one is on expectations when it comes to the fourth quarter. Should we expect premiums to come primarily from specialty and sort of catch up a little bit? And how should we expect the balance between quota share and excess of laws or initiatives to develop? Any thoughts on this? But obviously, more broadly going into next year, how should we expect the book to develop in terms of quarter share and excess loss. So the first question. And the second is on the size of the loss coming from the EU flats. And obviously at the half year, you had, I think, just 3 million.

OK. We've lost you at the end there. Tryfna, this is your microphone.

We can start on that.

I'll go anyway, yeah. Just the first part of the question as regards the remainder of the year. Yes, I mean, the pipeline is there. We can see the business that we banned through October and also we're seeing coming through. Probably true to say that casualty and specialty is slightly more active in there than property just by nature of the would expect that to make some sort of inroads into getting slightly close to what we had in the original plan. On the European loss. Yeah, I alluded to this in the comments on the on the cat loss page. The industry figure three months ago was at a lower level, our own clients were in They fed that through to us. And, you know, that's really just been the, I think, the time delay or lag in ascertaining the nature of the flood claims. It complicated the flood for those underlying clients. And I think it's just the nature of how the loss evaluation has come through from the clients to us. And the progression on Excel versus QS? And then through to next year. Yeah, you know, we've got a great base on the quota share, the excessive loss that we've seen. There was a balancing capacity this year of what we would write and how much we were prepared to write and balance between the two. And I think we had referred to it before that we'd see. working on that plan.

Yes, so I would expect on a gradual basis, the split between the two, the trend back towards original projections over the next two to three years. I mean, what the Queda share has done is given us a really solid and diverse foundation in the first year.

Trifonos, we just lost you at the end. Did we cover your questions there or were...

Yes, I hope you can hear me now. You covered all questions. Thank you.

Okay, thanks very much. Ming, do you want to go next? Hi, Ming. Ming, I don't know if you're on, Ming, your cell's turned off.

Okay, sorry. Thank you for taking my questions. Just two questions, please. First question, given the number of large hurricanes in the past couple of years, they all seem to be classified as one in 100 year. one in 250 year events. I mean, is there internal debate or is there a industry debate going on whether they should be looking at more frequent going forward? And my second question is on M&A. given where you have delivered so far what you've said at the time of the IPO, and given the share price, are you a bit concerned or worried that you might become a target in the near-median term? Thank you.

You did the one in 100-year event.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, good question. You know, it's been... reality of life, I think, over the course of the last two or three years. You know, we employ the models in our pricing for CAT. I think I was on record as saying, you know, over a year ago that we have a healthy, not distrust, but a healthy skepticism around the models at the tail, particularly, and their ability to predict that. so part of our defense of that is in addition to significant loads and applying experience loads to those cap models we're also employing structures that effectively are capping our events at a certain level and you know i alluded to the fact that certainly some of the credit share structures that we've written we are able to cap our relatively low levels compared to excessive loss, and that's helped us insulate, I suppose, the portfolio from what the model is saying is 1 in 100, in reality, maybe nearer 1 in 20. So it's a combination of both the structures which we employ as a defence, but also the way in which we have a general scepticism of the models at the tail.

Hopefully that helps. Yeah it does and I actually think that the market, I've seen a number of announcements in the last three to four weeks of people either withdrawing from areas of CAT and people saying that they don't like the volatility and I think the account may have to be re-underwritten at some point. The market has paid several unmodelled and unexpected losses in the last two to three years, COVID being a great example, the winter freeze being another one, and I think people are going to actually have to start to name the perils that they want to be covered, or the market needs to cover losses that they model and price fall. So that is a possibility on an ongoing basis. In terms of M&A, I'm not concerned. As far as I'm concerned, we have done what we said we do at the IPO. And we've got a platform. We've got a business that has a clean balance sheet without any liability tail. It feels that we are very well positioned. Now, the insurance sector has been through a difficult two or three months from a share price perspective. That happens. Hopefully, as we deliver what we set out to do, the market will reflect that. So I am not concerned about M&A. Both receiving or outwards, it's not in my mind.

Thank you.

Thanks, mate. Barry? Yes, thanks very much. Hopefully you can hear me. Great, thank you. I've got three questions. First of all, Neil, I think you were mentioning there about the number of competitors exiting the market. And I just wonder if that would lead on to brokers having to start the key 1-1 renewal season a bit earlier than normal. That was my first question. Second one? Elaine, I think you mentioned in passing about some new joiners yet to arrive, perhaps on gardening leave. I just wondered when they do, is this to boost existing classes or for new areas that you look to underwrite? And thirdly, again, I think, Trevor, you mentioned that you're monitoring a number of classes and I think you touched on cyber. I just wondered, do you have the expertise in-house to underwrite these classes you're looking at and monitoring? Or would you need to go out and get new people, new teams in order to do that? Thank you.

Right. So, yeah, Barry, there's an old adage in the market that in hardening markets, you want to go early. And in softening markets, you want to go late. And you'd all be able to work out why that is. And we are seeing some big programs and we're seeing early activity growth. It's early November and the amount of work being done is frenetic. And that is different to previous renewal seasons that we've seen. So your observation is absolutely right. I think the message is shop early to avoid disappointment. And then if we pass, Elaine, the hires?

Yeah, I guess on the staffing, it's not necessarily about... new classes of business it's more just about adding support across the company to existing functions so across the board you know finance compliance you know the kind of next level down for a lot of the senior underwriters so nothing new at this stage.

And then just on the new classes or the niche classes if you like the two that I mentioned there you know cyber and have underwritten that in the past. And it's a question of doing the groundwork and understanding those classes and just seeing what the opportunities are. You know, we've said very much that the strength of a business like this is sticking to what you know, not dabbling. And for those reasons, you know, classes, which we said right from day one, mortgage, trade credit, just wouldn't be classes that we would be in because we would only be on of, you know, perform more groundwork on them, really.

Great, thank you very much, thank you.

So, I think we don't have a name for iPhone, but the hand is up.

Hi, this is Annie, can you hear me?

Yeah, hi.

Hi, so I have a question on... the acquisition costs, is it similar to what you have seen in H1 or are there any changes to that? And the other thing I wanted to understand was that you're classified as a startup, so under solvency requirements, I guess you need to keep excess capital. So if you could talk to about how much you know, capital do you need to keep aside to write one unit of business and how much do you have right now and what kind of growth does it mean? You can have.

Thanks, Sunny. Okay.

In terms of the acquisition costs, I think the numbers that we put out half year are pretty indicative of where we're going to underwrite to this year. As our business mix changes as we move forward and put a bit more Excel on the books, then those acquisition costs in racial terms will come down a little bit. But for the time being, I think you can use that as your best guide. And in terms of capital, I think the rating agency certainly put some loads on you as a startup, regulators less so. But we raised capital to fund the first number of years of our business. And so we do have a significant excess of capital at the moment. So there's plenty of headroom there.

Got it, great, thanks. And if you could just ask one more. So just on the cadence of the ultimate premiums written, is Q3 typically a slowish kind of a quarter? Or, I mean, how do you look at it seasonality-wise for quarters?

Yeah, I mean, seasonality is everything in some of the classes, such as property, particularly. Casualty, as we recognise, actually, when we put the plan together, it's a series of almost kind of nine months spread more evenly through as a specialty to a degree, but property is the main kind of victim of the seasonality. Casualty and specialty are more spread through.

Yeah, so the property, sort of the bar for property is done by the 1st of July, whereas the other classes spread through the year. I mean, and the next two months of our lives, which will fascinate me, is all about the 1st of January. when the real pattern will emerge, which I look forward to seeing.

Thank you.

Thanks, Annie.

Philip, hi. Oh, hi. Can you hear me? Absolutely. Yes, we can hear you. Well, thanks very much for the presentation and the opportunity to join the Q&A. Just really a follow-up to the previous question about the capacity to grow in terms of capital. This is probably a rookie question. You probably covered this in your previous presentations, but can you quantify that excess capital in any way? And have you talked in the past about what kind of leverage or solvency metrics you're gonna target in the long term? Just to kind of get an understanding what you're, yeah, to quantify those things, really.

Sure, we haven't quantified the excess and it's not necessarily something that we would be providing, but I think in terms of the structure of the plan, we planned out the first five years, so we expect to have plenty of capital to accomplish that growth. If there was a reason for us to accelerate that growth, then we have the capital to do that. And we do have internal tolerances around solvency targets. Again, they're not necessarily disclosed, but as you'd expect, making sure that we've got plenty of headroom there, that we're able to sustain losses and be able to still go to market after that. And in terms of leverage targets, we haven't specifically talked about anything there either. We are 100% equity based at the moment. If we felt that we wanted to improve our capital mix and the opportunities were out there for us to do so, then that might be something that we'd look at.

So the one thing I would do is I'd refer you to the prospectus on the original IPO, because that sets out the trajectory of growth. Yes. On the capital model we have, we can get somewhere closer to a billion dollars of premium over the next three to four years. And then if the surprise is on the upside, as Elaine has said, at the moment we are unleveraged, and that will be something we could consider.

I mean, the rating agencies are always the higher target for us than the solvency targets themselves, so that's what we aim to meet, and then the solvency targets are going to take care of themselves.

And Elaine, it's fair to say that the rule of thumb is that you wouldn't go past 15%.

of leverage yeah yeah okay excellent that's uh that's very clear i'll i'll check out the uh the prospectus thank you lovely thanks philip um so ben you've i i think you've just got your hand up from before uh but if you've got another question

Yes, actually I do. I did have my hand up, but I do have another question. And that was, I realise it's only been a quarter, but I wonder if you could say something about the non-catastrophe loss experience in the quarter and year to date, and maybe also give your view in terms of underlying claims inflation that you're picking up across the three different classes of business and the degree to which

um you know you think pricing is is covering that and the degree to which there are risks around uh accelerating um claims inflation thank you yeah um i think in terms of non-cat experience there haven't been any surprises there i think that we're um we're still in fairly early stages of building the book and and working off of um pricing launch ratios there's nothing that's really um made us change our views around that, so not too much to comment. There's been a couple of larger losses, but nothing of any great significance in there, and all within the framework of those expectations. In terms of claimed inflation, that is something that we look at in our pricing process.

Yeah, and just to add to that, particularly around the cash-free classes, there's a whole sort of construct where we have been able to do a lot of work in the first year from an enormous amount of client submissions, pull out, if you like, their view and what they're seeing actuarial resources for you know a sense of where where is our pick on these uh particularly cashly contracts versus the industry overall um and actually for us you know that's a big part of our planning for next year um and those longer term classes you know they need to be able to wash their face in terms of the rate increase or the rate um We're very sensitive and it's down into what I would call the subclass level. It's not just a broad measure for casualty or property as a whole. We're down into the countries and the types of constructions if it's property and the countries and classes of coverage if it's casualty. So it's very detailed and we're very sensitive to it. Yeah, and it's real. Yeah, it is, yeah. And for that reason, particularly in long-tail classes, you still need to be generating... ground up rate to at least cover that. Yeah. Ben, does that cover it?

Yeah, very helpful. Thanks again. Thank you. Thanks, Ben. Philip, hi.

Hi, thank you very much for taking my questions. I had a couple of questions here. So the first one is on the gross loss. I was wondering if you were able to quantify or give some colour on how much of the the growth loss you were able to see to your retrocession providers. And secondly, obviously you're reporting some catastrophe losses today. I was wondering if you could comment about your reserve setting process and whether you're setting them at best estimate or the top end of a target range.

Philip, I guess on the gross losses, we're not disclosing them at this point. And then in terms of the recoveries, that will come out at year end when we publish the full financial statements. You'll be able to see that at that point. And in terms of the reserving process, it is our first year, so I think fair to say that it is evolving. But it's very much a focus on the pricing loss ratios and what our views are around them for most of the kind of the attritional and the large losses. And then when we get specific events, they are assessed individually, whether that's large losses or cat losses. We, I would say that we're prudent in our reserving approach. We do have an actuarial best estimate. We do have independent actuaries who have a look at our numbers as well. But there's always a little bit of judgment involved around that as well.

Thanks very much.

Thanks for that. So, any other questions? iPhone, is that Annie?

Yeah, hi. Annie here. So I just wanted to drill down again on the capital question. You mentioned that in the IP prospectus, you laid out the growth prospects as to what the trajectory looks like. But given that the plan has changed in the sense that you're doing more quota share where capital will be tied up for a longer time versus, say, excess of loss where it can get recycled at a much quicker pace, And given that excessive loss so far on the property CAD side has been loss making, how does that change the cadence or the trajectory of growth from your IPO plans?

Mani, we lost you about halfway through there. If you wouldn't mind repeating your question, please.

Hi, can you hear me now?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So I was saying that given your IPO plans were based on a different quota share and excess of loss kind of a makeup and given excess of loss capital can be recycled faster because it gets released sooner versus quota share, which is tied up for a longer time. I just wanted to understand if that changes your trajectory of growth in any way, especially given that this year has been loss making on the property cap side.

I think in terms of the ultimate plan, I think we expect to get to the same place. It's just a bit of a different mix in the early years to get there. So I wouldn't necessarily look at it any differently.

Got it. So when you say different mix, it'll be a slower start to get to that ultimate kind of growth, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah, just that there's that little bit of a lag in the written in there, given the higher quarter share mix.

Thank you. Thank you. Anthony.

OK, I think we've probably answered most of the Philip.

Philip come back with one more question.

Hi, thanks very much for allowing me to follow up question. I just wanted to ask on the back on the catastrophe losses and your market share of the European flood loss is substantially higher than the hurricane Ida loss, which I think is slightly surprising given your. business mix, which is heavily overweight North America. I was wondering, were you surprised at the relative losses between the two perils?

Not particularly, because as we've said, we have exposure through some of the worldwide within it, you know, and to put it into context, you know, having, you know, a 12 million or so grand up loss is still a relatively small number within the context of the overall property portfolio. So, you know, it doesn't take much within the reinsurance world, you know, a couple of clients that themselves have, you know, perhaps they represented in the plan. It's sometimes enough just to move these, but I would say it's pretty much just at the margin still.

Yeah, and those numbers are net, Philip. So in terms of our recovery, that's more focused on IDA.

And if I could ask one more, actually. You mentioned that you've written 208 contracts and then you just said that the claims were on the margin. I was wondering if you could give us a sense of how many of those 208 contracts have reported a claim and how many of them are loss free. That's a sort of rough guide.

I mean, in terms of reported, it's not a big number. It's fairly early days for reporting. We don't have a specific number to give, but it's fairly small.

Yeah, you know, yeah.

Thanks very much.

OK, so thank you everyone. I think we've exhausted the questions. But always feel free to reach out to Tristan or to the company if there's anything that subsequently you want to know about. We've tried to be as active and responsive as possible on the investor relations side. And yeah, we look forward to the next six to eight weeks and probably talking to you guys again in January. So thank you for turning up and we'll see you soon. Thanks very much.