Conduit Holdings Limited

Good day, everyone. Welcome to Conduit's Trading Update call for Q3 2025. We appreciate your time today. Joining me on the call are Neil Eckert, Chief Executive Officer, and Elaine Whelan, Chief Financial Officer. Please note our disclaimer language on slide two. I will now turn the call over to our CEO, Neil Eckert.

Thanks, Brett. Welcome to our presentation. I'm joined today by Elaine Whelan, our CFO. As usual with our trading updates, today's presentation will focus on our top line underwriting experience across each of our segments through the first nine months of the year. I will also provide our views on recent market conditions and some thoughts on the up and coming renewal seasons. Elaine will provide some additional detail on our financial investment highlights through the third quarter before closing remarks and time for questions. For the first nine months of 2025, we delivered growth in gross premiums written across all three of our segments. Our casualty segment has experienced the strongest growth during 2025, while property and specialty have increased at a more modest single digit rate. The relative growth rates across our segments reflect the opportunities we have seen throughout the year. Certain classes have presented more compelling opportunities to deploy our capital, and we have consciously grown in those areas, while we have also deliberately pulled back in other classes. Market conditions have become more competitive during 2025, following several years of price increases and strong returns to the industry. Overall, our risk-adjusted rate change net of claims inflation was down 3% for the nine months ended 30th September. In casualty, original rate change in certain classes is meeting or exceeding expected claims inflation, while conditions in property and specialty segments have been more competitive with some softening occurring after several years of increases. Despite the softening experience during the year, we believe pricing remains adequate. Our investment portfolio continued to perform well through Q3, with a net investment return of 5.4% for the first nine months. As our business matures, the investment portfolio has increased to £2 billion, providing increased leverage and income to support returns. Managed investments and cash increased approximately £350 million over the last 12 months. While the first half of 2025 was marked by elevated loss activity, with over 100 billion of insured catastrophe losses, the third quarter was a relatively benign period. Additionally, our loss estimates for previously reported events have remained stable. Whilst we recognise the loss environment was more benign during the third quarter, We are reaffirming our mid-single-digit ROE guidance for 2025, recognising that there is still potential for late-season hurricane activity and other lost events before year-end. We were reminded last week with Hurricane Melissa hitting several islands in the Caribbean with very intense winds and rain before coming to Bermuda. Our thoughts are with those who continue to experience the devastating impact of the storm as they begin to recover. While the full extent of the catastrophe will take time to assess and there remains uncertainty in industry loss estimates immediately following an event, our market share in the Caribbean is small and we do not expect this to be a material event. In line with our capital management strategy, we have followed a cautious approach to our share buyback program through the peak Atlantic hurricane season Now that we are through the most active part of the season, we will resume executing on our buyback programme, where we have board approval for up to 50 million until May 2026. 2025 continues to be a transitional year across multiple dimensions for Conduit, marked by deliberate steps to strengthen our leadership and position the company for improved underwriting resilience. Among these strategic initiatives, we are pleased to to announce the appointment of Stephen Possilwhite as our new Chief Underwriting Officer. Stephen brings nearly three decades of experience in the global specialty insurance and reinsurance market and has a proven track record of driving results across senior roles at several leading insurance and reinsurance organisations. His skills and experience are well aligned with Conduit's strategy and commitment to strengthen our underwriting capabilities. This appointment follows a rigorous search to identify a leader capable of advancing our underwriting strategy in this next phase of the company. The appointment complements the recent addition of William Randolph as Chief Risk Officer and the promotion of Angus Hampton to Head of Casualty amongst other appointments and promotions across the company. We are also pleased to welcome Nicholas Schott as an Independent Non-Executive Director on the Conduit Board, Nicholas joins us with an exceptional track record in financial services, honed over decades as a trusted leader in the investment banking and in advisory roles for FTSE 100 institutions. Collectively, these appointments underscore our commitment to bring the resources and talent to the organisation in order to execute on our strategy. Now turning to our top-line underwriting performance in the first nine months of the year. We achieved 8.5% growth in gross premiums written, reaching 1.04 billion. This growth reflects both targeted new business and increased participations on accounts where we saw strong alignment with our underwriting approach. Growth in our property and specialty books have continued to moderate as we proactively respond to evolving market dynamics and have reduced certain accounts where pricing has softened more aggressively. Our casualty segment continued to grow in Q3 and we increased participation with demonstrating positive rate momentum in targeted classes. As we work through our planning process and approach January renewals, we expect our growth rate will continue to moderate next year as pricing will likely continue to soften. And we begin to reposition our property portfolio towards a greater share of excess of lost business. We are also focused on improving the alignment of our inwards and outward portfolio with more effective retro coverage. As discussed earlier in the year, following the California wildfires, we purchased retrocession protection against large secondary perils. Our aim is to reduce volatility going forwards from these types of events, and we are focused on the net performance of our portfolio in our 2026 business planning. I will now turn to premium growth for our individual business segments, along with their respective market conditions and outlook. In property, we have grown gross premiums written by 32 million to 568 million for the first nine months of 2025, representing a 6% increase over the same period in 2024. After several years of positive rate compounding, the property market has experienced softening prices during 2025, driven by increased capacity from traditional reinsurers as well as alternative capital sources. This resulted in a risk-adjusted rate change net of inflation through 30 September of minus 5% for property, which was consistent with the experience we have seen during the year and within our expectations. Although pricing is moderating, our property book remains adequately priced with sufficient margin. Market behavior generally remains disciplined around terms and conditions with attachment points holding. And we have seen pricing for loss impacted accounts remain firm. As mentioned earlier this year, we are targeting a greater balance of quota share and excess of loss business within the property portfolio. Our strong relationships with customers and brokers will help provide access to the business we are targeting as we seek to expand shares on well-performing business and participate on new programs. We will also reduce shares on underperforming accounts or where the pricing or structure is no longer aligned with our appetite. As we execute on these plans for 2026, we expect to move towards a more even balance between quota share and excessive loss within the property segment during the upcoming year. with further progress over the next two to three renewal seasons. Casualty continues to be our second largest segment, providing attractive diversification to our underwriting risk profile and supporting the growth of our investment portfolio. We increased casualty gross premiums written by $45 million during the first nine months of 2025, reaching $269 million. This represents a 20% increase over the same period of 2024. The casualty market continues to be relatively disciplined, although pricing conditions vary by class. Across our casualty portfolio, risk-adjusted rate change net of inflation for the first nine months was plus one. This reflects our preferred classes keeping pace with claims inflation. while other classes within casualty, such as DNO and financial lines, have experienced more competitive pricing, and we have reduced our exposures in these areas. The growth we have experienced in casualty has been focused in targeted classes demonstrating improving conditions and positive rate momentum. This includes U.S. general third-party liability and U.S. excess and surplus lines. Our casualty portfolio is built on a foundation of solid long-term quota share partnerships, and it will be difficult to materially increase the excess and loss proportion of the accounts in this class. Overall growth was driven by increasing our support to partners that have demonstrated underwriting discipline and societal changes, including expertise in managing claims in this environment. We expect the casualty market will continue to be dynamic as we enter 2026 and we will maintain our careful approach to selecting our partners. Turning lastly to specialty, gross premiums written increased by a modest four million for the first nine months of 2025 to 202 million. This represents of stable 2% growth in the portfolio over the same period in 2024, consistent with growth presented at our 2025 interim results. Specialty is a broad market and conditions vary widely across classes. Capacity continues to be attracted to the margin potential and non-correlating characteristics of specialty risks. And we have seen new entrants looking to gain share. Rates are beginning to come off peak levels we experienced in 2024. And as a result, the portfolio has experienced a minus 3% risk adjusted rate change net of inflation for the nine month period. Our temper growth reflects the increased competition in the market and the team reducing exposure to accounts showing signs of margin compression. While these dynamics have introduced some pressure on rates, the broader environment remains disciplined, with terms and conditions largely remaining consistent. That said, we are beginning to experience a modest upward trend in seeding commissions, as seedings seek to benefit from abundant reinsurance capacity. In Q3, we have strengthened our specialty underwriting team with the appointment of David Frawley. David is a seasoned underwriter with deep market experience, particularly in marine and aviation classes, which will allow us to take advantage of any meaningful firming of aviation rates in 2026 following a number of significant loss events this year. I will now hand back to Elaine to go through our financial and investment highlights.

Thanks, Neil. Gross premiums written of $1,039.1 million are up 8.5% on the prior year. As we mentioned at the half year, we expected the growth we discussed then to moderate slightly over the rest of the year, and that's still the case, but we still expect to have a healthy level of growth for the full year. We have reinsurance revenue of $662.4 million versus $588.2 million in the prior year, a 12.6% increase year on year. A reminder once again, our reinsurance revenue is essentially gross premiums earned less seeding commission and a smaller adjustment for non-distinct investment components. It therefore tracks the same pattern as our gross premiums earned would have, just a lower number after the seeding commission deduction. Generally, seeding commissions have ticked up a bit, so we're seeing a higher deduction for those, which of course impacts our reinsurance revenue. On losses then, the first six months of 2025 was clearly another highly active period of natural catastrophe events and risk losses for the industry, including the California wildfires, but the third quarter has been relatively quiet. Our California wildfire loss hasn't really moved since the half year, and we are maintaining our previously reported reserve on that. Other previously reported loss events also remain stable. On the investment side, with the reduction in yields and spread tightening in the quarter, plus the portfolio generally producing strong investment income, we generated a return of 1.5%, bringing us to 5.4% for the year to date. Book yield is 4.2% and market yield is 4.3%. We remain relatively short duration and our focus is on maintaining a high quality, highly liquid portfolio. Duration is currently 2.8 years versus 2.7 years on our net reserves. Average credit quality is AA, and you can see the usual pie chart here with our asset allocation and no significant changes from prior quarters in that or our strategy. I'll now hand back to Neil for closing comments.

Thank you, Elaine. In closing, as we look forward to January renewals in 2026, we believe pricing will continue to soften. and our growth will moderate as we reposition certain parts of the portfolio towards a greater share of excess of lost business, notably in our property segment. We will be focused on better alignment of our inwards-outward portfolio and improving our net position. Our balance sheet remains strong, and we are resuming the previously announced share buyback program after pausing during the peak Atlantic hurricane season. We are committed to transitioning Conduit to being a stronger, more resilient underwriting company, and the recent employee appointments and promotions signal our investment in the business. We believe the actions we are taking will support more stable and resilient returns for shareholders. That concludes today's presentation. Thank you for your time. We will now turn over to Q&A.

Thank you. If you're dialed into the call and would like to ask a question, please press star and the number one on your telephone keypad. Additionally, if your question has been answered or if you'd like to answer a question, please press star one again. We will pause for a moment to assemble a queue. And we'll take our first question from Michael Hutner. Please go ahead.

Fantastic. Thank you. Congratulations on what looks like a strong quarter. I had three questions, please. The first one is on the growth. I think you said moderate next year. Can you give us a feel for your thinking here? I think I had previously 5% growth. I think consensus is 2%. But any kind of indication of how what it would look like next year would be really, really helpful. The second is, I know you hadn't, even though the quarter is clearly benign and the fact that you and Melissa is not material and you didn't mention anything else sounds like in the first four months of the second half, we're looking good. I just wonder if you can kind of talk a little bit about, you know, you didn't upgrade anything So, you know, are we going to see the benefits of these improvements or will they be kind of used in some way to improve resiliency or something? And then the final question is not actually a question. It's a kind of suggestion. Maybe, I know you spoke about Excel and Quotashare and byline of business. Maybe you could publish these numbers. Thank you.

Right. Michael, it's Neil here. Thank you. We don't give forward guidance on revenue. What we have said is growth will moderate. And as we deployed, we were growing strongly during the deployment phase of the business. It's starting to get towards maturity. And that brings into focus the quality of the portfolio, capital management, And those issues, I'm aware of analyst consensus forecast next year, but we did say growth will moderate. We didn't say shrink. So, I mean, I don't really want to be more explicit than that. On the update on earnings, there was a cap five on the water this time last week. So we are in a hurricane season. It just seemed inappropriate to revise earnings at this point. What we have said is we are reaffirming guidance and that there were no material events in the aggregate or individually as far as Convert is concerned. Could you just repeat your observation just so that I

It's just that you're changing your business model. You talked about more excessive loss, less quota share, and I just wondered if you could actually publish the numbers. Just using hints and suggestions for an analyst is challenging.

Yeah, I do understand that we are. We have now approved the 26 business plan in what we have is a plan and an aspiration. We haven't communicated that in this quarterly update. But your comments are noted and we will see if we can be helpful in that regard.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Abid Hussain.

Please go ahead. Oh, hello, everyone. Hi. Just two questions from me. The first one is on stabilization. As you stabilize the ship with people changes, products makeshift, and then margins, how should we think about the outlook for the business in terms of growth, capital distributions, or growth versus capital distributions, and more broadly the ROE going forward, so sort of beyond this year really. And then the second question is on the casualty book. You've accelerated the growth across the casualty book over the third quarter. What is it that you like about that business versus the other lines of business? Does it bring capital diversification benefits from the cat exposed lines? Any more colour as to sort of why you're looking to grow in that particular line of business? Thank you.

Okay. In terms of stabilization, I mean, I said to Michael in the previous answer that as we hit this part of the cycle and as we have now reached virtually full deployment, then growth will moderate. It's about exposure management. It's about bottom line. And it's about capital strategies. We did announce today that we're resuming our share buyback. So that, I think, would be the future emphasis. And in terms of returns, I mean, we have voiced what our aspiration is through a cycle, and there will be parts of the cycle where returns will be lower because of rating and parts of the cycle when rates will be higher. But our future aspirations I remain unchanged. I'm obviously aware of analyst consensus for next year, which I think is around 13 and a bit percent ROE. So I don't really want to go further than that. In terms of casualty, it's where the market is the strongest at the moment. We are very specific in terms of our appetite for certain segments and parts of the casualty account, it has the benefit of diversification, as you alluded to in your question, and doesn't give us additional PML probable maximum loss exposure as it relates to the property account. So it does help when we are writing more excessive loss on the property side to continue to grow the casualty account, which we will look to do both in America and internationally.

Yeah, but it's Elaine, if we could just add a bit on the capital points. We did put a slide in one of our decks a quarter or two back in terms of how we think about capital, and I'd point you towards that again. I think that that That way of thinking hasn't changed in terms of how we think about the capital for what we want to write and building various buffers over that for whatever opportunities come up and whatnot. Our consideration about dividends versus share buybacks is obviously somewhat influenced by our trading multiple as well. So I'm going to take another look at that slide.

Super. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Ben Cohen.

Please go ahead. Hi there. Good morning, good afternoon. I had two questions, please. Firstly, could you just say a bit more about how you see your retro buying strategy ahead of next year and maybe any sort of preliminary feedback that you've had from brokers in terms of price and your ability to that sort of make any changes that you're looking for. And on a similar vein, in terms of the business that you're writing and the mid-shift that you're looking to get from shifting from proportional to XOL, can you just say a bit more about client acceptance, desire to sort of expand shares with you on the XOL side? Do I detect in the statements or in the discussion at Q3 versus Q2 that maybe you're seeing that shift to XOL just being a little bit more difficult, whether it's related to environment or customer demand. Maybe you could give a bit of color there.

Thank you. Okay. On the retro buying strategy, we have been discussing and had initial pre-market discussions with our flag broker and other brokers um we had previously bought a lot of named apparel as in wind and quake coverage we know that the market has availability for all perils including secondary perils to being included than buying secondaries on a separate basis. So we have a comprehensive programme structured. We have yet to go into market. That is common across the entire market. That process will start in the next two, three weeks, that there will be a small handful of programmes out there. I mean, I noted the Lancashire comments on their retrocession as well. So, yes, we will be going for a comprehensive programme that will reflect the necessity to protect our capital, given that we will write more Excel reinsurance. In terms of business written, most clients buy both quota share and excessive loss protection. And by being on and having an established quota share account, We will therefore see most of the Excel business and getting onto it will be the driver. So it is hard, and Michael asked a question earlier, for me to give a sort of percentage split. at the half year we said it's evolution not revolution and it's not an about face we will con you know where there are quota shares and there is satisfactory margin and we like the quality of the business we will write those the shift will probably be more predominantly in the property and the specialty um casualty is very much a quota share type business because there is not the need to buy catastrophe volatility as it relates to natural perils obviously so casualty will be probably um very much weighted towards quota share and that's common across the market the drive will be on property and specialty and you know i look forward to the renewal season but we will we will know more about the outcome by the time that we report on the finals

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of . Please go ahead.

Thank you very much. My first question will be about specialty. I mean, you mentioned signs of increased competition. And you've also highlighted that aviation might be an opportunity. Maybe you can be a little bit more granular at what subsegments of specialty do you see conditions worse and more, which ones you still like, and whether there's any geographic distribution there. My second question will be on capital generation. You know, now that we've been through most of the year, we're in November, maybe you could give some form of estimates of where do you expect your DSCR and DCR ratios to land by year end? That would be very helpful. And maybe question number three. I think we spoke about that at prior calls, but with new kind of pricing assumptions for the year, maybe you can comment about your appetite for NatCat. Where do you expect your PMLs to develop given the next shift, et cetera? Thank you.

Elaine, do you want to comment first on the issue of BSCR and those things? And then I'll come back to specialty and NatCat.

Yeah, sure, Ivan. Unfortunately, we can't give any real guidance on that at this stage. We will be reporting on them at year end, but we're not going to give an expectation of where we're going to end up at this point. But we have previously set out a range that we expect to operate in, and we expect to be comfortable in that range.

Good. And then if I pick up on the specialty, I mean, specialty is, in effect, a very broad range. It is everything that property and casualty isn't. We do see opportunities. There's a lot going on in engineering, builders' risks. Some of the marine classes are softening. We've seen strong competition for offshore energy recently, but it's a broad school. And we do continue on a risk by risk, account by account basis to see good opportunity. We are also seeing international business and that will allow geographic diversification. And once again, we will have a push with the major brokers to write more non-proportional as in excess of lost business. And that cat Ivan, can you repeat the question on that CAD? Oh, yes, it was about PMLs. And we haven't revised our PMLs, but given the nature of the way that we can protect our account, I would not expect to see a material shift in those at all. And we will give detailed guidance on our PMLs at our finals. in february and certainly that's well ahead of next year's hurricane season which is sort of peak exposure outside of obviously quake thanks appreciate that thank you our next question comes back from the line of michael hutner please go ahead

Thank you. Thanks for the talk, Quintin. I've got three. The first one is, you were obviously at Monte Carlo, and now we're two months later, about. Just wondered how the environment has changed relative to what was discussed at Monte Carlo, which seemed kind of softening, but nothing very dramatic. The second is on... What you said, Elaine, that's really good, but could you possibly say, or maybe you could send out to all the slides you mentioned on the capital priorities. And then the last one is investment income. So you've got tons of investment assets, so $2 billion. You've got a really nice 5.4% investment return. And I'm really sorry, you might say, well, I can't answer the question or this is so simple I'm not going to answer it. But what is the, in terms of the bottom line, the figure which goes into the ROE, so call it, you know, if it's 5%, it's about 50 million or something. How much would the investment income portion be? I'm having trouble because I seem to remember in the past you explained really helpfully that part of the unrealized gains from investment instance, which I think are in this 5.4% figure, would then come out again as part of the iffy, I call it, the unwind. Anyway, thank you.

So capital priorities, I can confirm that Brett can actually, it is on our Convict website under investor relations, but I will ask Brett to send it to the analysts on this call. Thank you so much.

Yeah, I mean, we don't disclose the split at Q3, but we did disclose it at the half year. So you can go back and reference that. And we did get a small benefit this quarter from the reduction in yields as well. So we are seeing fairly strong investment income off the portfolio now, though. So it's a good point for that. But I'll point to the half year in the first instance.

What was the book yield at the half year?

Half year would have been about 4.2. It's really consistent.

Yeah, so the book yields 4.2 and the actual return was 5.4, so you can work out the difference. And the capital we have, our assets are expanding on an annualised basis at about, I'm talking historic, about 250 million. Good. So that deals with historic...

On the investment return, I seem to remember the 5.4, which includes the unrealized gains, that gets offset within the P&L by something else. It actually doesn't hit the bottom line. Am I right in this, or am I completely missing the point?

It's somewhat offset by the reinsurance finance income and expense. So that's unwinding the accretion on our insurance liabilities and basically marking them to market for the movement in the yields as well. It's not a perfect match. The investment income and investment return tends to be a little bit higher than that, but there is an offset.

Very helpful. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Joseph Fields.

Please go ahead. Hi there. Thanks for taking my questions. The first is just on your growth and casualty. I just wanted to double check my understanding is correct that this is driven by increased market share with your current partners. the follow-up question to that is just, you know, how, you know, was that because, you know, some of the other partners that you seem to have today sort of withdraw? Um, or is it just that, you know, how are you able to sort of increase your market share essentially? Um, you know, or is it for, you know, high demand? Uh, my second sort of question is just about, um, the transformation plan. Neil, you mentioned that the, Business strategy your plan for 2026 is now been agreed Can you sort of give an indication of when we might hear it? Is it going to be the four-year earnings? Or you know, could it be earlier?

Thank you Right, I mean you run let's deal with the business plan first We I doubt that the many companies would communicate the sort of inner workings of their own business plan to the market so I don't certainly not before I the earnings and at that time we will disclose all of the disclosures that we previously have which would include things like PMLs we for commercial reasons and sensitivity we don't disclose individual details They disclose PMLs which give our net exposure. We will be as helpful as we can, but there are limits as to what a company can disclose in terms of commercially sensitive information. We will look to update in February. On the casualty, it will be a mixture of growth on current partners. all of our clients you know each year has has different patterns and some of them will reduce the amount of coverage they buy and retain more others will look to buy more so there's there's no hard and fast rule we are still seeing new business opportunities as we grow and mature and it sometimes takes time to get onto people's reinsuring panels for casualty especially if you're a new company so we are seeing we are also looking to diversify on a geographic basis and we we are seeing new opportunities in europe So Michael mentioned Monte Carlo. We have been traveling extensively. We have been working hard with our major inward broking partners. We have been having a number of meetings with our client base and working very hard on that. So it's partly an increase in existing core relationships, but on most of the really top clients we've probably got the positioning we want so future developments and growth would come out of new customers and a slight geographic diversification but obviously you know that falls within the confines of us being selective and casualties a lot of subclasses and we have views um on the bits that we find attractive

Okay, that's very useful, thank you.

Thank you. Again, if you'd like to ask a question, please press star and the number one on your telephone keypad. Our next question comes from the line of Andreas Van Emden. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much. Yeah, I just have a high-level question around cycle management and capital. Obviously, you'll be managing your gross versus net or your retentions next year. And one of the ways you can do that is through your reinsurance program. Yeah, you're going to be optimizing this ahead of 1.1. I just wondered whether you also considered using third-party capital either against your property cap broke or casualty as a capital management tool into 2026 or maybe even 2027 in order to sort of optimize your capital structure and maybe release some capital. Thank you.

Yeah, the answer to your question is yes, we have deeply considered it. We've run two individual projects looking at sidecars, quota shares, and they come with pros and cons. And, you know, in each case we have modelled it, you know, you can seed away casualty premium and you lose the investment income, which is one of the features we have. We like the business that we're writing in that area so to seed it to a third party yes you get the seed commission but as i say you lose the investment income so it's a straight forward exercise modeling that i mean at the moment our um principal goals for this year end is expand the coverage in the program to take into account secondaries protect our capital very conscious of this in the light that we will be writing more excessive loss and keep it simple and focus on capital management.

Yeah, and Andreas, we have already sponsored a cap bond and then we do use some of the ILS funds as well. So, I mean, third-party capital is a space that we're already using actively.

Yeah, we have a $100 million cap bond in force.

Yeah, well, I was thinking more in terms of partnerships coming alongside you, either funds or sidecars to sort of take some of the load of moving towards

Yeah, and as I said, we've run two projects on that basis looking at that, and we are aware of the ILS appetite in the market. At the moment, we haven't closed a transaction of that nature, but it's under constant review, and I do get the point.

All right, very interesting. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next question comes back from the line of Michael Hutner.

Please go ahead. Thank you. And I promised my last question, but you've been so helpful. I'm very tempted. So it's just really to understand better what's happening in the market. So I think you spoke about the terms and conditions in specialty remaining consistent, I think. And then, but maybe in property, attachment points maybe kind of, maybe not unchanged. I don't know the words you used, but clearly it's good, but maybe not as good. And then I think you also said something about the, let me just check my notes. Yeah, no, it was actually just on this. Oh, yes, no, the pricing, the pricing and loss affected. You mentioned that it remains firm. I think it's not, it was just a comparison. I think at Hanover, at their investor day, which was three weeks ago, so it's a while back, they were kind of hopeful that loss adjusted, sorry, loss affected would see rising prices. I just wondered where you've seen the market shift here. Thank you.

So we have seen some, and I would describe it as moderate price rises on business that was lost affected in the California wildfires. There are one or two big claims hitting the specialty market. And we would expect to see payback emerging on some of those programs that are affected by the major events that have happened in the specialty market. So, yes, there is a hope. Some aviation policies that there have been recoveries under aviation war programs in respect of Ukraine. And actually, I was asked a question earlier about aviation by, I think, Ivan. and I omitted to allude to it. David Crawley, who has joined us and works for Mark Bierman on the specialty side, does have expertise in this area. And if there is a re-rating in that space, it may present opportunities. We will be cautious for now because there is, you know, we think the markets will develop over time. So yes, we do expect or have seen some pricing adjustment on loss-affected business. Michael, what was your question again on property?

It was just, I was curious, pure curiosity on the attachment points, whether they're kind of holding firm or maybe crumbling a little bit at the edges.

And the answer to that is market by market. It will vary. People... will try and expand their coverage, especially on retro, where we are a net beneficiary as opposed to a writer. The one thing I would say is that property is very model driven. So it is, if people do start dropping attachment points, it drives through into the model and the way that the property is priced. so there are some inbuilt defense mechanisms but we do recognize you know that the pricing we have published uh the pricing that we're experiencing so i'm not denying that there are reductions in the property market um but so far we have seen discipline as it relates to terms and conditions and that includes you know under conditions you would include deductibles and access points

Thank you very much, Neil.

Thank you. There are no further questions on the conference line. I will now hand over to Neil for closing remarks.

Right. Thank you, everybody. um so that concludes today um in terms of q a um it's been a good um quarter for us i think there's some solid progress being made we're obviously very very pleased with the hire of stephen possible white which we announced today who who joins in in late january um we look forward to um a renewal season and the build up to year end and we'll report further at the finals. So I think that concludes it for me, but thank you for joining the call and I will probably look forward to speaking to each of you individually in the next few days.