Eurocell plc

good day and welcome to the eurocell half year results presentation all lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise after the speaker's remarks there will be a question and answer session if you would like to ask a question during this time simply press star followed by number one on your telephone keypad if you would like to withdraw your question press star one again for operator assistance throughout the call please press star zero and finally i would like to advise all participants that this call is being recorded thank you i'd like to welcome darren waters ceo to begin the conference darren over to you thank you very much um yeah alongside me this morning obviously michael scott cfo as part of our presentation this morning we'll update you on our strategic initiatives as well as the progress

So, at a headline level, against a sub-market backdrop, we delivered a resilient performance with adjusted operating profit of 9% versus platform 2024 on revenues that were up 10%, all driven by Alunet, which has performed very well during the first four months under our ownership. Although we've seen a modest uptick in new build activity, demanding our core RMI market remains very subdued. We're therefore continuing to focus on driving operational efficiencies and cost reduction opportunities. For example, in quarter one, we carried out a restructure of our branch network, which is expected to generate annualized savings of £2 million. We're also continuing to invest in the delivery of our five-year strategy with good progress on new branch openings and the door and window initiative that we kicked off in 2024. We're also following through on our commitment to improve shareholder returns through further share buybacks and an increase in the ordinary dividend, with returns of $7.3 million announced so far this year. However, with trading conditions remaining challenging, we are revising our full-year outlook to reflect recent trading activity in Q3, which is trailing behind our previous forecast. And I'm now going to hand over to Michael, It will run through our financial performance in more detail.

Thanks, Darren. We'll start by going through financial highlights on page five. With subdued trading conditions, underlying sales volumes were below H1 2024. However, flat organic revenues due to further progress with our strategic initiatives and total group sales were up 10% bolstered by the acquisition of Alumet in March. to h124 this reflects a strong contribution from alunet and effective cost control partially offset by lower organic sales volumes and labor cost inflation at the same time we've also progressed further targeted investments to maintain momentum with our strategic initiatives adjusted profit before tax down three percent includes increased depreciation and finance costs following the acquisition and adjusted earnings per share up seven percent to reflect a lower share count following our buyback program Cash generation remains good, despite being down against the strong 24, which included a benefit in working capital from falling raw material prices. Net debt at 29 million reflects the impact of funding the AldiNet acquisition through our RCS, and with leverage at 0.9 times, we have good headroom on our debt facility. Finally on this slide, so far this year we've announced sharehold returns of 7.3 million pence. including the interim dividend of 2.3 pence per share, up 5% on H124, and our current £5 million share buyback, which is expected to complete in the second half. Thereafter, we intend to continue share buybacks, subject to always maintaining a strong financial position. Turning to the full P&L on page 6, I'll come on to the drivers of our sales performance and the other components of EBITDA in a moment. But first, just looking below that line, Depreciation and amortisation was £13.1 million, up slightly on H124. And with our CapEx programme, lease renewals and Alunet, we expect DNA for the full year to be in the region of £27 million. And just to note that I've summarised all of our technical financial guidance at the end. Finance costs for £2.3 million, up £1 million on H124, reflecting the utilisation of our debt facilities to fund the acquisitions. to the benefit of patent loss relief. Looking down the P&L, basic earnings per share were 6.0 pence, up 7% on H124, and dividends 2.3 pence I've already covered. Moving to the right of the slide, the first half non-underlying charge of £4 million includes £2.2 million of implementation costs for our ERP replacement project, £1.4 million of termination costs in respect of structuring, and £0.4 million of acquisition due diligence costs. later in the presentation i'll pick up the erp systems replacement project and our cost reduction initiatives which include the structure lastly on this slide it's worth noting that excluding alunet our organic sales gross margin percentage and overheads are all flat with h1 2024 demonstrating resilience in the face of very difficult trading conditions and ongoing cost inflation moving on to our sales performance on page seven revenues were up 10% in H1 or flat excluding Alunet with organic volumes 2% lower as you know challenging macroeconomic conditions and weak consumer confidence have impacted activity levels in our key markets profile sales at 1% with volumes 2% lower reflects reduced R&I activity for our trade fabricators partially offset by a modest improvement in new build housing overall in the branch network sales were down 1% with volumes 2% lower this includes Underlying RMI volumes down 5% and we have continued to experience competitive pressure on selling prices from the branch network. However, set against that, we've made further progress with our strategic initiatives, up 4.4 million in the first half, including windows and doors up 8% and e-commerce activity up 41%, plus sales from new branches of 0.9 million pairs. AliNet is performing very well with post-acquisition corresponding period in 2024, driven by market share gains. And Darren will cover ownership and the other strategic initiatives later in the presentation. On to adjusted operating profit on paychecks. Profit of 10.1 million represents an increase of 9% versus H1 2024. Moving left to right across the chart, that adverse volume impact of 1.1 million reflects organic sales down 2%. The margin benefit of 1.5 million has several components. Whilst revenues include the impact of selling price increases implemented to offset overhead cost inflation, increased competition for limited demand has put pressure on selling prices in the branch network. However, we continue to proactively manage our growth margin and cost base and have delivered stable raw material, recycling feedstock and electricity prices this year. Alunet has made a strong contribution on the corresponding period in 2024. Moving along the chart, labour inflation of 2.0 million includes the annualisation of our April 24 pay award of 4% and our 25 award of 2%, plus increases to employers NI and the National Living Wage affected from April this year, which have an annualised cost of approximately 3.0 million. Property costs were at 1.7 million in the first half, including the impact of rent reviews at several operational sites, And variable labour costs are down this year, with lower bonus and variable pay partly upset by higher share-based payment charges. On cost reduction, our previously announced restructuring programmes are expected to deliver annualised savings of at least £4 million, most of which should be realized in 2025. And I'll pick up those when I talk about business effectiveness later in the presentation. The other caption to the right includes further targeted investment to maintain momentum in our strategic initiatives. This includes the short-term profit drive of $0.7 million through new branches, where the opening program will create long-term profit growth. In summary, operating profit is up due to alienating effective cost control despite weaker underlying volumes and ongoing cost inflation. Moving on to CapEx on page 9, investment of $6.6 million in Edge 1, which is a $2.4 million branch network, the combination of new openings, refurbishments and relocations, with the balance of primarily maintenance CapEx. Our guidance for 2025 is that total capex, including our net of approximately £13 million, is below our previous guidance of £15 million, reflecting the focus on careful cash flow management. However, we continue to invest to drive a five-year plan. The guidance includes £3 million for strategic initiatives, such as new branches, refurbishments and relocations, plus racking for windows and doors. There's also £3 million for facilities, welfare and safety improvements across our property estate, and £2 million to develop our IT the remainder largely maintenance cappings as noted earlier implementation costs for cloud-based ip solutions are charged to the pnl rather than capitalized our erp system replacement falls into this category with 2.2 million charged to the pnl as a non-underlying maximum taking the total cost included on the project to date for 4.4 million we estimate non-underlying costs on the erp project will be approximately six million pounds for the full year and I'll provide further detail on the project itself later in the presentation. Coming back to CAPEX, the lower chart illustrates that we have manufacturing capacity in place well ahead of demand, which is an important component of being well-placed to deliver on our strategy. Getting to the full cash flow on page 10, we'll check out the components of an increase in net debt of $25.9 million in the first half on a pre-IFRS 16 basis. This follows the acquisition of Alienet in March, which is funded from our debt facility. Moving left to right across the chart, cash generations continue to be good. An outflow from working capital of £0.9 million in H1 follows a significant inflow across the 2023-24 period, driven by stock reduction, and includes June 25 stock and debtor days in line with the June 24 comparison. Looking ahead to the full year, we're guiding to an outflow of approximately £3 million, including the impact of Alienet's growth. This is also better than our previous guidance of a £6 million outflow with our continued focus on efficient working capital management. Non-underlying costs result in an outflow of £3.8 million, and tax payments of £1.3 million are offset by share-based payments and other non-cash items. Cash consideration for Alunet, net of cash acquired, is £20.2 million, and CapEx payments of £7 million include the asset additions covered earlier, plus a small reduction in our capital credit. After financing charges of £0.9 million, share buybacks of £3 million and dividends paid of £3.9 million, this results in pre-IFRS 16 net debt of £29 million at the end of June. IFRS 16 adds £70 million to debt, which you can see in the reconciliation table is up £10 million compared to December 24. This reflects the net impact of leases acquired with Alunet, branch openings and leasing mules, a total of £19 million, for operating activities on the left of the chart. Overall, this leaves us with a strong balance sheet in liquidity position, with leverage at 0.9 times pre-IFRS 16 EBITDA, and good headroom on our £75 million facility, thereby providing security, flexibility, and options for the future. Turning to capital allocation on slide 11, we will continue to drive shareholder returns through a combination of an increasing orderly dividend and share buyback. Moving left to right across the chart, our approach to capital allocation is to prioritise organic investment in line with our strategic plan, supporting initiatives to drive profitable growth in the branch network, continuous improvement in operations, and an upgrade to our IT system. On dividends, our policy recognises the importance of the order of dividends. We believe an increase in dividend is right for this business, providing a predictable income stream for our investors, with this year's interim up 5% on H124. The Board has also taken the decision that employee incentivisation by equity should be through shares acquired rather than issued, and our target is to hold sufficient treasury shares to satisfy employee share options expected to best over the next two years. Moving across the chart, we believe Alunet demonstrates our disciplined approach to acquisitions with a very clear strategic fit and a compelling financial justification. Thereafter, we intend to enhance shareholder returns through share buyback. The £15 million buyback launched in January 2024 was completed earlier this year, and the additional £5 million buyback announced in March 2025 is expected to complete in the second half. Looking further forward, we intend to continue the buybacks, subject always to maintaining a strong financial position, with net debt not to exceed one times EBITDA unless there is a clear short-term deleveraging plan in place. So to sum up on page 12, a resilient financial performance with adjusted operating profit of 9% in the first half. We continue to focus on cost reduction and cash flow management, and cash conversion remains good. The business is well positioned to successfully deliver our strategy with well-invested facilities and available operating capacities. We have a strong balance sheet and good liquidity. The sharehold returns are 7.3 million and so far this year, and we intend to continue to share by maximities. With trading conditions remaining subdued and sales through the summer falling behind our forecast, our full-year outlook is now below previous expectations. But we are convinced that the medium and longer-term prospects for our sector remain attractive. Finally, to the right of the slide, there is a summary of our technical financial guidance, which I hope is helpful. And with that, back to Darren to update you on progress with our strategy.

Thanks, Michael. Well, look, I think you're all familiar with our five-year strategic outline. That's $500 million in revenue, $50 million of operating profit with a 10% operating margin. I'm pleased to say we're making good progress with all of our initiatives. I'm going to start with Alunet and just really a reminder of the background for this acquisition that we announced back in March. The rationale was primarily driven by the need for us to gain a foothold in Alderminium, which now accounts However, as part of the deal, we acquired two important product adjacencies, solid timber core entrance doors and aluminium garage doors, which are both highly complementary to our home improvement proposition. We valued these businesses at $29 million, representing a 6.5x multiple of Alunet's 2024 EBITDA, with an initial payment of $22 million. and in line with our acquisition model sales in the first four months across all three product categories were up significantly versus the same period in 2024 on aluminium profile sales increased by 30 percent driven by market share gains with 10 euro cell fabricators committing to switch to the alunet aluna profile the launch of the new aluna plus window system and roof lantern provides a full residential solution to fabricators and installers with fewer components and faster fabrication and installation times. Alienet fabricators are also being recruited onto our door and window initiative, which has already generated £1.2 million of orders through the branches. Top door sales are up 56%, with the brand really starting to build a strong reputation in market for innovation, quality and service. The new sleek skin door, launched earlier this year, is already proving to be popular garage door sales are up 20 percent with the new premier line sectional door gaining share with installers so a strong start and we're confident that this business will continue to take share as we win and onboard more customers so now turning to the branch network and just a reminder again of the ambition behind this initiative which is to grow the network's 250 sites by 2028 as well as relocating a number of branches to better locations as leases expire. If you look at what we've done over the last nine months, we've added nine new branches and carried out six relocations. All the new branches are in the southeast, where we were underrepresented, and these are trading in line with expectations. The relocations, I'm pleased to say, are all performing better than the previous sites. At our new Croydon branch, we are trialling an alternative trade council format, which, based on early evidence, will become the blueprint for all future openings. And in June, we launched our new Hour of Rewards scheme. This scheme gives members a range of benefits, including savings on big brands and points on every pound that is spent through the branches. It also allows us to tailor promotions with different customer types with extra points on specific product categories to drive improved share of wallet. To date, we've now signed up 4,300 customers adopters on our door and window initiative we've completed the rollout across all of our branches in june door and window sales in the first half are up eight percent across the network in a market that is down that's versus last year however i think more importantly against the 2023 baseline that's the year before we kicked off this initiative we're up 17 in the first half So whilst progress has been slightly slower than we originally expected, there are some regions who are performing very strongly, like Yorkshire, where we're at 49% against 2023. And we therefore remain confident in this initiative and our ability to deliver on our strategic target as we spread best practice across the network and achieve consistent levels of performance across all regions. quote conversion remains high at 44% which I'm sure you'll agree is very very strong next in terms of digital well digital sales 45% of our sales are click and collect, which is a one-hour service that we introduced last year, and return on sales remains very healthy at 34%, and we therefore continue to invest in developing this platform. On extended living, garden rooms and extension sales are up 50%, but our return on sales is still below our 10% target due to the high cost of lead generation and failed OPS. We're therefore exploring a variety of options to improve this product category, including raising selling prices. On People First, we're continuing to focus on improving the culture at Eurosel by improving safety and raising employee engagement. Our new employee forum launches this month with 60 representatives elected across the whole business. Our new careers website and applicant tracking system has resulted in a significant increase in direct hires, which are now running at 90%. While safety performance has slipped in the first half, we're still 40% better than we were in 2023, and we remain focused on getting to world class. Now I'm going to hand back to Michael, who will cover up business effectiveness and ESG leadership.

Thanks, Aaron. With business effectiveness, we're embedding continuous improvement philosophy, which is highlighting opportunities for improved efficiency. Our previously announced cost reduction initiatives should deliver £4 million of annualised savings. They include restructuring the branch network by removing a layer of regional management and reducing the size of the sales force and in parallel upskilling branch managers to drive greater ownership of branch performance. The restructuring was completed at the end of Q1 and will generate annualised savings of £2 million. We've also identified further overhead cost reductions of £2 million that will be realised in 2025. Looking forward, we're targeting more cost savings and working on initiatives and operations such as scrap reduction and process innovation to drive material efficiency and yield improvements. We're also looking at improved labour utilisation and better use of our operational footprint. As you know, under the Business Effectiveness Strategic Club, we're also replacing our ELP systems. The first part of this is a new trade campus system in the branch network. intact iq will transform the way we interact and transact with our customers in the branches including simplified processes and the use of electronic point-of-sale functionality the second part is a new erp system to support all of the functions of the business with ifs the objective is to improve efficiency by the automation and standardization of business processes and deliver better management information for faster decision making the project is progressing on time and to budget with the next nine months critical to its overall success. As previously reported, we estimate total costs will be approximately £10 million for the 2024-2026 period, with £4.4 million incurred to date, and we expect transition will take place around mid-2026. We'll continue to manage risk on this very carefully, with board oversight and a highly experienced IT director in place. Moving on to ESG on page 25. Well, we want to be recognized as a truly responsible company. Eurocell is already a leader in PVC recycling, preventing 3 million waste windows being sent to landfill every year. We're working with a specialist consultancy on the development of our ESG objectives, data collection, and disclosures. We're targeting net zero carbon emissions by 2045. So far this year, our targets have been validated by SBTI, and we've published our net zero transition plan. we've also received a cdp climate disclosure rating of b at first submission and an msca double a rating the transition plan includes a near-term target to reduce scope one and two emissions by 67 percent by first 2034 primarily through a transition to 100 renewable energy the conversion of our commercial fleet to hvo just moving company cars and vast city beats medium term scope three actions include optimizing the use of recycled material in production and over the longer term engaging with our suppliers on their own science-based targets which we hope will support switching to a commercially viable low carbon alternative to traditional pvc resin progressively over time finally we've also made progress on the other initiatives we have to drive carbon reduction including further investment in on-site electricity generation through the installation of solar panels at our largest operating facility

and using lower carbon pvc residents in the production of our modus profile starting this year with that back to darren to wrap up thanks michael so in summary a resilient performance in the first half despite the market headwinds the real positive of course has been alinex where revenues are up 36 percent versus 2024 and as we navigate weekend markets we will continue to focus on We remain committed to driving shareholder returns and therefore expect to continue with our programme of share buybacks after completing our current scheme in the second half. In the near term, we're not anticipating any seasonal help from the market, particularly in RMI, and we therefore expect our full-year results to come in below previous expectations. However, medium and long-term growth prospects for the UK construction market remain attractive, plus we have good momentum on all of our strategic initiatives, including Alunet, which we expect to continue to outperform. The group is therefore well positioned to drive sustainable growth in shareholder value. And with that, that concludes our presentation.

If you wish to ask a question, please press star followed by 1 on the telephone and wait for your name to be announced. There is star 1 if you wish to ask a question. And your first question comes from the line of Edward Prest from Berenberg. Your line is open.

Hello, morning both. A couple of questions from both Rob and me. By couple, I mean three. Firstly, on competitive behaviour, how are your competitors responding to tough trading conditions? I know you said pricing was competitive, but I was wondering if any capacity had been taken out or if there were anything that might have a longer-term impact on the market. Secondly, given the share buyback progression, is there any any interest from you guys on in terms of m&a going forward or is that is that your primary primary use of capital is going to be on the on the buyback um and then thirdly branch network you you talk about growth and you you know you've been mentioning the the store the the branch that you've been opening are there going to be any store any branch closures going forward in terms of in terms of looking at the looking at the portfolio thanks

thank you uh well in terms of the competitive response um no i mean i think the market's been fairly stable there's certainly been no further consolidation although obviously we're seeing a lot of activity in mna with um the most recent announcement uh regarding vika and fwin and there's also been a couple of acquisitions by legion in the hardware sector um price and secure and uap so um but what we are seeing is we've seen a couple of fabricators i'm pleased to say not supplied by us but um we have seen some fabricators disappear so um further downstream but in terms of extrusion uh the market's pretty stable as it is for the branch network um you asked the question we prefer to keep our leverage at around one times EBITDA we should end the year slightly below that so I would say right now unless it was a compelling opportunity we're quite happy where we are Michael I think you'd agree with that yes and I think Aliexpress has been a big acquisition for us in historical terms and I think both the board and shareholders would want to see us clearly demonstrating we're delivering value from that before we go again yeah and i think in terms of the branch network look uh we're always keeping uh that under review particularly those branches that may be underperforming um right now that's uh that's a very very small that out if we have an example and we have done that. I can think of one up in Cumbria which we took out and so I wouldn't rule it out but as you know our primary objective is to grow the network but we will look for further opportunities to optimise and we're doing that largely through relocations where we can find better sites.

brilliant thank you and a reminder before we move on to the next question if you would like to join the queue to please press star one on your telephone keypad to raise your hand and your next question comes from the line of charlie campbell of seafell please go ahead so thanks so much for taking the question um it's really just said sort of um to push out the guidance a bit more i mean i i guess from the tone of what you're saying that

underlying performance broadly flat in the first half and I guess you're sort of thinking about that for the second half too and therefore kind of sort of flat operating performance for the full year and we can add Alunet on top of that but I guess there's a problem in there that you've got more sort of cost headwinds in the second half and maybe some of the cost savings and

to offset those come through next year rather than this year so maybe just a bit of a help on on that sort of train of thought be really helpful thank you sure yes the um team two analysts noticed this morning which have a pt for the year in the range of 19 to 20 million and i think that's a fair reflection of the revised guidance that we've uh that we've set out today You're right, Charlie, in that effectively what that represents is a flat organic performance in the second half, plus the benefits of Alunet, and with some incremental interest and depreciation costs being offset by some of the cost savings, that would leave you at £20 million at the top of the range. If we saw any deterioration against flat performance in the second half in the organic business, that would see us towards the bottom end of that range.

Maybe just as a supplementary, it seems to me that the picture you painted of Alunet is that there's some really quite strong growth going through there. You've signed up more customers as a result. Just wondering if the second half of Alunet is stronger than the first in terms of the momentum that you're picking up.

In terms of the numbers, it is a little bit stronger. So if you took the first half performance, which is four months worth of trading and pro-rata for six months, you'd get to about 1.4 million. I think what we're looking for from Alunet in the second half is 1.6 million. That's the number I'm giving to you after deducting the incremental interest costs. So yes, there is positive momentum in the Alunet business. that we will be a little bit ahead of the guidance that we gave for the business at the beginning of the year.

Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. That's very clear. Thank you.

And this does conclude our Q&A session for today. I would like to hand back over to management for closing remarks.

Operators, we've got Clive Lewis in the room with us who I think has some questions.

Yeah. Thank you, Chad. Yeah, I think I've got four, so I'll do one at a time. market volume you indicated you were down two percent what do you think market was in terms of volume i don't know if you can split it branch versus profiles that would be helpful but an overall number would be useful yeah well i think there's no kind of

let me down i would say in the region of five percent is my feeling and i think the trade counters uh you know won't be far off that um e-commerce has obviously sort of 11 quite a big step change have your expectations and appetite that's supposed to drive

sales i mean with that sort of operating margin i'd be pushing this as you possibly can clearly you're not going to get all the great customers giving giving bigger margins but how are you thinking about that route to market and what you can do to increase it well look at the uh so the age profile of um of core customers gets younger um

I think we're leading in this channel in terms of the functionality of our website and we're always improving that we're also now starting to look for affiliate partners you know that will direct traffic to our website customers that we wouldn't normally otherwise see so yeah look we want to go as fast as we can we're acquiring more customers as I say that trade which is our core and um and we launched the one hour click and collect last year which as you can see is now almost 50 of sales so i think we're doing you know we're doing all the right things and we're yeah we will we will continue to develop that uh that channel okay thank you um as you're progressing through the erp upgrade how have your thoughts about how it can improve

the performance of the business evolved. Have you got more excited or are you still sort of think, yeah, we're on track to deliver those initial benefits or is something altered?

I'd say, I don't think it's particularly changed through the project but the place that's probably most excited by this is the branch network where the SAP system we have at the moment has been heavily bespoke to try and make it a trade cap system which it's not and therefore it's very up-wieldingly difficult to operate and um one of the reasons i think historically we've had quite high labor turnover in the branches that our systems have been difficult to operate the the teams that have been involved in the in the trials of the system in the network of the new system have been i think extremely impressed by what they've seen and recognize that this is going to make their life and the customer's life easier so i think the biggest benefit of the whole thing will come for come through the the branches with the rest of the business and with with ifs again eurosell has grown up with all sorts of little bolt-ons and add-ons around the place which because of the nature of the existing sap system has resulted in in workarounds and what i would think of as inefficient processes and we're taking the opportunity through the implementation of ifs to streamline our processes and and standardize what we do so I'm not sure everyone's jumping up and down for joy about that because it's quite difficult to manage that change but this is how I do it and getting people to accept that actually what we're going to do here is change our process to match the system rather than vice versa but I think we in finance can be quite excited about that because it is going to result in a more efficient business and that should provide opportunities for

um alunet i mean we just touched on it briefly but i mean it's obviously yeah that sort of 36 percent growth in revenue value in this industry sort of unheard of at the moment i mean i mean charlie sort of touched on it briefly but but in terms of that sort of pace of growth and i suppose sort of how important are converting the fabricators you know on pvc to use aluminium because they were using a different aluminium provided before how far in that process are you through and how important were the new products that were coming through i suppose trying to get a little bit more into the detail of what's driving that growth yeah i mean look the fact is we're probably just scratching the surface because there's uh you know around about 1500 fabricators in the uk

some of which are pure aluminium and that still represents an opportunity because Alionet has significantly improved their product range with the launch of the new window system and therefore you combine that with the lantern roof that we also launch like I said we've now got a full key differentiator for AniNet is faster fabrication times because of fewer components and therefore less waste and for the installer quicker installation times so it's a really compelling offer and I think we will continue to acquire share as a result of that it's a similar story in Comptor because again it's all about a great product great service that differentiates

and so look we're excited it's been a great start still lots more opportunities ahead of us and you know we'll continue to drive for them last one I mean I've just come out of the Grafton meeting and you know they've got two UK businesses Selco and Leyland but again yeah not seeing great market conditions and companies saying look the R&M is hot but the i is the bit that's not happening at the moment you know people are not committing to sort of carrying out those those sorts of sort of projects at the moment sort of deferring it around consumer confidence when you look at your business what are you looking for i suppose in particular is it or is it doors and windows or you know because of facer and soffit sort of upgrading doing gathering you know that's probably a three four million million three or four thousand pound project whereas sort of a sky pod is probably on the back of an extension which is a 15 20 25 000 so have you seen noticeable differences in in terms of how different product categories have performed and i think back to what you said at the beginning we need the eye yeah that's what uh that's what drives the bulk of our business whether it's profiles or indeed activities through the branches um the uh the repair

stress we just need to do it um and um probably as well as a bit of them but we need the eye and that's the bit that's not happening people are just deferring decisions on home improvements um because of the the lack of certainty so thank you all right okay operator any more questions on the line there are no further questions on the phone line I think we're done in the room too great thanks for everyone who's attended this morning we'll see you all again soon this does conclude today's conference call thank you all for joining us you may now disconnect