Cincinnati Financial Corporation

Good day and welcome to the Cincinnati Financial Corporation First Quarter 2025 earnings conference call. All participants will be in the listen-only mode. Should you need assistance, please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To ask a question, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. To withdraw your question, please press star then two. Please note this event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to Dennis McDaniel, Investor Relations Officer. Please go ahead.

Hello, this is Dennis McDaniel at Cincinnati Financial. Thank you for joining us for our First Quarter 2025 earnings conference call. Like yesterday, we issued a news release on our results along with our supplemental financial package, including our quarter end investment portfolio. To find copies of any of these documents, please visit our investor website, .centen.com. The shortest route to the information is the quarterly results section near the middle of the investor overview page. On this call, you'll first hear from President and Chief Executive Officer Steve Spray and then from Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer Mike Sewell. After their prepared remarks, investors participating on the call may ask questions. At that time, some responses may be made by others in the room with us, including Executive Chairman Steve Johnston, Chief Investment Officer Steve Soloria, and Cincinnati Insurance's Chief Claims Officer Mark Schambo and Senior Vice President of Corporate Finance Teresa Hopper. Please note that some of the matters to be discussed today are forward-looking. These forward-looking statements involve certain risks and uncertainties. With respect to these risks and uncertainties, we direct your attention to our news release and to our various filings with the SEC. Also, a reconciliation of non-GAAP measures was provided with the news release. Statutory accounting data is prepared in accordance with statutory accounting rules and therefore is not reconciled to GAAP. Now, I'll turn over the call to Steve.

Good morning and thank you for joining us today to hear more about our results. The first quarter of 2025 had its share of challenges, from the wildfires in California to freezing and flooding across the plains to wind and water in the Midwest and East Coast. Almost every area of the country was impacted by a weather-related catastrophe this quarter. While catastrophe losses can dampen earnings on a short-term basis, we know they present an opportunity for our claims service to shine and reinforce the noble purpose of our business. Our claims professionals again demonstrated the value of a Cincinnati policy by helping policyholders recover from damaged homes and businesses. I'm proud of the way they have responded with prompt and personal service in handling each claim with care and empathy. The effects of these catastrophes offset otherwise profitable results from our insurance operations and strong investment income that continued to grow at a double-digit percentage pace. As I look deeper into our results for the quarter, I see several areas of strong performance. I remain confident in our long-term plans and in our ability to execute on our proven strategy. In addition to growing investment income, property casualty premiums continued to increase at a nice pace and included strong renewal pricing. Our Commercial Lines insurance segment produced a superb combined ratio of 91.9%, continuing its steady improvement over the past three years. Our excess and surplus lines also had an outstanding quarter, including a combined ratio below 90%. In terms of consolidated results on our income statement, we reported a net loss of $90 million for the first quarter of 2025, including recognition of $56 million on an after-tax basis for the decrease in fair value of equity securities still held. It also included a non-GAAP operating loss of $37 million, a swing of $309 million from a year ago. The change was driven by a $356 million increase in after-tax catastrophe losses. Our .3% first quarter 2025 property casualty combined ratio was 19.7 percentage points higher than the first quarter of last year, including an increase of 19.1 points for catastrophe losses. Our .5% accident year 2025 combined ratio before catastrophe losses improved by 0.6 percentage points compared with accident year 2024 for the first quarter. Without the effects of reduced premiums from reinstating re-insurance treaties related to the California wildfires, it would have improved an additional two percentage points. During the first quarter of 2025, our catastrophe re-insurance program responded as intended for a large event. The estimated first quarter recovery from our primary property catastrophe re-insurance treaty for the wildfires was $429 million, based on our estimate of gross losses at the end of the quarter. Our consolidated property casualty net written premiums grew 11% for the quarter, including 14% growth in agency renewal premiums and 11% in new business premiums. We were satisfied with premium growth for the quarter, even with the unfavorable effect of the reinstatement premiums for our property catastrophe re-insurance treaty. Our estimate of the net effect of all reinstatement premiums reduced first quarter 2025 premiums by $52 million, slowing growth of consolidated property casualty net written premiums by about two percentage points. Our objective is profitable premium growth and it is supported by various efforts. Our underwriters focus on pricing and risk segmentation on a -by-policy basis as they make risk selection decisions. Combining that with average price increases should help us continue to improve our underwriting profitability. Estimated average renewal price increases for most lines of business during the first quarter were slightly lower than the fourth quarter of 2024. Commercial lines in total remained near the low end of the high single digit percentage range and excess and surplus lines remained near the high end of that range. Our personal line segment included both personal auto and homeowner in the low double digit range with personal auto approaching the low end of that range. New business produced by agencies representing Cincinnati Insurance again contributed to premium growth. We continue the healthy pace of appointing agencies where we identify appropriate expansion opportunities consistent with our long-term growth strategy. I'll briefly comment on performance by insurance segment, highlighting premium growth and underwriting profitability compared with a year ago. Commercial lines grew net written premiums 8% with an excellent .9% combined ratio that improved by 4.6 percentage points, including 2.6 points from lower catastrophe losses. Personal lines grew net written premiums 13%, including growth in middle market accounts and Cincinnati private client. Its combined ratio was 151.3%, 57.4 percentage points higher than last year, primarily due to an increase of 49.9 points from higher catastrophe losses. In addition, the effect of reinstatement premiums added approximately 8 points to the combined ratio before catastrophe losses. The $64 million of reinstatement premiums included $63 million for our homeowner line of business and reduced personal lines premium growth by 11 full points. Excess and surplus lines grew net written premiums 15% with a very profitable combined ratio of 88.3%, an improvement of 3.6 percentage points compared with a year ago. Both Cincinnati RE and Cincinnati Global experienced significant impacts from the California wildfires this quarter, resulting in an underwriting loss for Cincinnati RE and reducing Cincinnati Global's underwriting profit. Cincinnati RE grew first quarter 2025 net written premiums 26%, including an estimated favorable 6 percentage points from the $12 million net effect of reinstatement premiums related to the wildfires. It had .4% combined ratio, which included 63.9 percentage points from catastrophe losses. The $103 million of catastrophe losses Cincinnati RE reported for the quarter included $104 million for the wildfires. Cincinnati Global's combined ratio was .8% for the first quarter, 26 percentage points higher than last year, driven by an increase of 23.4 points from higher catastrophe losses, including $20 million for the wildfires. Its net written premiums decreased 9% from a year ago due to lower direct and facultative property premiums reflecting underwriting discipline in the face of a softening market. Our life insurance subsidiary continued to help temper earnings volatility that can occur in the property casualty industry with its 11% improvement in net income while growing earned premiums by 1%. I'll conclude with our primary measure of long-term financial performance, the value creation ratio. Our first quarter 2025 VCR was negative 0.5%. While that is a disappointing short-term result, it's important to remember that we've always focused on this measure. Net income before investment gains or losses for the quarter contributed negative 0.3%. Slightly lower overall valuation of our investment portfolio and other items contributed negative 0.2%. Next, Chief Financial Officer Mike Sewell will highlight some additional aspects of our financial performance. Thank you, Steve, and thanks to all of you for joining us today. Investment income growth continued this quarter up 14% compared with the first quarter of 24. Bond interest income grew 24% and net purchases of fixed maturity securities totaled $220 million for the first three months of the year. The first quarter pre-tax average yield of .92% for the fixed maturity portfolio was up 27 basis points compared with last year. The average pre-tax yield for the total of purchase taxable and tax exempt bonds during the first quarter this year was 5.8%. Dividend income was down 7%, reflecting previously disclosed rebalancing of our investment portfolio during 2024. Valuation changes in aggregate for the first quarter were unfavorable for our equity portfolio and favorable for the bond portfolio. Before tax effects, the net loss was $72 million for the equity portfolio, partially offset by a net gain of $65 million for the bond portfolio. At the end of the first quarter, the total investment portfolio net appreciated value was approximately $6.7 billion. The equity portfolio was in a net gain position of $7.2 billion, while the fixed maturity portfolio was in a net loss position of $486 million. Cash flow, in addition to higher bond yields, again boosted investment income growth. Cash flow from operating activities for the first three months of 2025 was $310 million, even after paying for most of the largest catastrophe event in our history. I'll briefly touch on expense management and our efforts to balance expense control with strategic business investments. The first quarter 2025 property casualty underwriting expense ratio increase of 0.2 percentage points was primarily due to the effect of reinstatement premiums that added 0.7 points. Regarding loss reserves, our approach remains consistent and aims for net amounts in the upper half of the actual estimated range of net loss and loss expense reserves. As we do each quarter, we consider new information, such as paid losses and case reserves. We then updated estimated ultimate losses and loss expenses by accident year and line of business. For the first three months of 2025, our net addition to property casualty loss and loss reserves was $488 million, including $454 million for the IBMR portion. During the first quarter, we experienced $91 million of property casualty, net favorable reserve development on prior accident years that benefited the combined ratio by 4 percentage points. For our commercial casualty line of business, there was no material reserve development for any prior accident year during the quarter. On an all-lines basis by accident year, net reserve development for the first three months of 2025 included favorable $105 million for 24, favorable $9 million for 23, and an unfavorable $23 million in aggregate for accident years prior to 2023. I'll conclude my comments with capital management highlights. We paid $125 million in dividends to shareholders during the first quarter of 2025. We also repurchased 300,000 shares at an average price per share of $139.96. We believe our financial flexibility and our financial strength are both in excellent shape. Parent company cash and marketable securities at quarter end was $5 billion. Debt to total capital remained under 10 percent. And our quarter end book value was $87.78 per share, with nearly $14 billion of gap consolidated shareholders' equity providing plenty of capacity for profitable growth of our insurance operations. Now, I'll turn the call back over to Steve. Thanks, Mike. Despite a bumpy first quarter, we remain optimistic about the future of Sensei Financial. We're focused on our long-term strategies and are not swayed by short-term volatility. Looking beyond the catastrophes that impacted our business this quarter, we continue to see steady improvement in key metrics we use to evaluate the core of our book. Our confidence is reinforced by what we hear from our appointed agencies as we meet with them at our annual sales meetings around the country. Agents are enthusiastic about their business and how we partner with them to serve their clients for our mutual success. We'll continue to focus on the execution of our proven strategy, seeking profitable growth and creating shareholder value over time. As a reminder, with Mike and me today are Steve Johnston, Steve Soloria, Mark Shambo, and Teresa Hoffer. Thorlund, please open the call for questions.

Certainly. We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask a question, you may press star, then 1 on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. If at any time your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw your question, please press star, then 2. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble

our roster. The first question comes from Michael Syrups with Oppenheimer.

Please go ahead.

Good morning. Thank you for the time. Mike, on your comments on the reserve movements, just to confirm for commercial casualty, there wasn't any movements in between accident years, first off. And then I think it's the case. And then you mentioned lower emergence on known claims. I guess I was going to confirm. Is that mainly property? Yeah,

lower emergence, at least on the commercial casualty, it was one million a favorable development. And really between the years, there was nothing significant. Most of it came from accident year 24, but the other previous accident years, it's kind of spread throughout.

Okay. And that lower emergence was property, right?

Yes.

Okay, good. Thank you, Mike. Second question would be on, I guess, California specifically, maybe broadly in your answer, if you could touch on it. Can you say how much of your California wildfire is still open claims and then how you think about that risk of those open claims given tariffs? And I guess more broadly, any comments on tariffs impact of your overall book? And I do kind of want to focus a little bit more on the California fires. Thank you.

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And so just kind of from a high level, we previously disclosed a range high low, and then obviously here with the queue and the press release, we have tightened that up with our net loss from the California wildfires. At the low end of that range, 449 million. Kind of if you look at that on a gross, I would probably, at least our, what we're showing right now is that we've probably paid about 65% of the gross claims there. So we've paid about 488 million. And this is really on the primary side. So excluding since he re, you know, type of a thing. So gross losses, 754, paying about 488 million. So, so we've got a large amount that we have paid. And, you know, we're collecting our reinsurance on the rest. Mike, it's Steve Spray. I might just add on that on the amount paid also, the feedback, you know, we obviously are in constant contact with our agents out there and just as we would expect, but we never take it for granted the, with the, the approach and the reaction and the way that our claims reps are handling these claims is just, it's commendable. I mentioned noble business in my opening remarks and that's, that's what comes to mind when you, when you think about how we're putting people's lives back together when things are at their worst. That's what we're in business for. You had mentioned the tariffs and maybe I think I heard at the end there on California and then maybe just in general, and I could probably speak to, I think they kind of both go hand in hand. As you know, you've heard on other calls, you know, there's a, there's a lot of moving parts and uncertainty when it comes to the tariffs. Obviously we're monitoring very closely, not just for California, but just in general. One thing I would say is that I would maybe add to the tariff piece is just, you know, one thing I've learned over here, the first, maybe this first year in the, in the role is that there's always, you know, macro pressures impacting our business environment. What I do know, what we do know is that Cincinnati is prepared to respond. We're all here on one campus. I think we're in a good position to act accordingly. We've got a history of prudent conservative reserving. And then if you just look at the pricing tools, sophistication, the segmentation that we've been executing on, and I think we're in a really good position to respond to anything that, you know, any way that this ends up going.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Steven. Thank you, Mike.

Appreciate it. Appreciate you, Mike. Our next question comes from Mike Zuremski with BMO. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning. Just quick follow up on the tariffs. I know, obviously complicated and changing changes by the day, but in terms of response, is there, you know, structurally, I know that one of your competitive advantages is having kind of a three-year contract, certain elements of commercial. So would, should we be thinking about that dynamic in terms of kind of your response would maybe be a tiny bit slower if the tariffs do end up being impactful to commercial property inflation?

I don't know if it'd be any slower, Mike, but let me answer it this way. And I think we should, you should be thinking about it. We are thinking about it. A couple of statistics around the three-year policy is that about 75% of our commercial lines premiums are adjusted annually. That's the third of the book is renewing. Commercial auto doesn't have a three-year guarantee lock. Umbrella doesn't have a guarantee lock and neither does workers' compensation. So you, that leaves you really with the property and general liability on the major lines of business. And the way I would think about it there is we've got the tools today to segment and price that business better than we ever have. Our three-year package policies outperform a one-year policy. Intuitively, underwriters know where to place that business. But again, peeling that back maybe even a little bit more, one of the things that I think could, for lack of a better term, hedge our bet there and help us is that even inside a three-year policy where the rate is guaranteed for three years, your exposures are adjusted annually, which is a big deal on both property and on the casualty so connect a bit of it as a proxy for rate or for pricing.

That makes sense. Yeah, that's helpful. So the exposure updated annually. So in the layman's terms, if the cost per square foot increases by 5% probably due to tariffs, then you're able to get that 5% through even if there's a three-year lock?

Yeah, let me make sure I'm real clear on that. What we do when we issue that policy is we charge for and put on what's called an inflation guard. So it's an escalator on the property values throughout the three-year term and there's a premium charge for it. On the casualty, we audit those premiums. So let's say on a construction account, let's say it's payroll or sales, that gets audited annually and then gets adjusted accordingly.

Okay, got it. Sorry to harp on that. That's very helpful. Mike, real quick

on that. Real quick while I'm thinking about that too, just so that if you again look at the tariffs and where we think, let's just cut it back to inflation. Let's just say that inflation were to pick up because of these macro events. We really think it's going to impact first and foremost probably commercial and personal auto. And if you go to commercial lines with the one-year policy we have in commercial lines, we can be a little more responsive with the pricing.

Got it. Makes sense. So switching gears to home a bit and just kind of overall catastrophes, given the significant size of the catastrophes early on in the year due to California, is CINCE considering buying additional reinsurance temporarily to protect itself through the remainder of the contract for your reinsurance terms?

Well, obviously we had a reinstatement here after this first event. When we actually, on a gross basis, Mike, we went through about I'll say half of our property cat reinsurance tower for 2025. So that's all been reinstated. And we don't have any plans right now to purchase anything additional. It's something that we always are looking at, just as far as capital management and how to manage cat, something we think about and talk about regularly, but nothing to report on to you this morning.

Okay, got it. And just a follow-up, not that we focus on top-line growth, it's more about profitable growth, but now that folks have had more time to digest kind of the events in California, has your mood or outlook changed a bit on terms of the top-line growth trajectory in personal lines? I know a lot of that growth has emanated out of California. I think we can see if we adjust your 1-2 numbers for some of the top-line growth in personal lines as well this quarter. Any thoughts there? Thanks.

Yeah, I would tell you zero dilution of enthusiasm for any of our lines of business countrywide. We've got a proven business model, Mike, with our agency distribution. We've got the underwriting talent expertise. We've got pricing sophistication and segmentation. You've opportunity in personal lines. We still think that that exists. Like after every major cat event, we do a deep dive. California obviously is no exception. We look for lessons learned and then we adjust our plan accordingly. And we've got some lessons learned already in California. We've already taken a little bit of action on that, and that will continue to evolve. And I'm confident that you'll continue to see continued tweaks there. As far as top-line new business growth in personal lines, it's really being impacted by, again, this -a-lifetime opportunity that I've been talking about the last two or three years. It's just getting to be a tougher comp year over year. On a pure new business dollar amount for personal lines, it's still very strong. Now, specifically to California, yes, it's true. After the loss, as we're doing the deep dive and lessons learned, we've been more conservative on new business and workers' compensation. Excuse me, in California, personal lines business here the first quarter, and that's put pressure on the new business growth. I think Mike hit on the net written premium and what the reinstatement premiums did there. That brought down personal lines net written premium growth by 11 full points in the quarter.

Thank you, Steve. Our

next question comes from Josh. Our next question comes from Josh Shankar with Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Thank you for taking my question. I think we've talked about this before, but I need an update on strategy a little bit. Over the past three quarters, you've taken about $180 million, $190 million of cat losses in the reinsurance segment. You generate about $600 million in premium per year in that segment. Reinsurance was supposed to be a diversifier. Is it still a diversifier? Does it still make sense with the volatility that comes with it, especially if some people believe that property cap pricing is going to be declining in the foreseeable future? How do you think about those things?

Yeah, thanks, Josh, for the question. Appreciate it. I can start out here and then Mike can jump in. If you would like, yes, we think that it is still core to what we do. We are looking and we've talked about this in the past. It's an assumed reinsurance operation that has its own separate balance sheet. We are looking for non-correlated business. If you just look at the wildfires, just in general, the majority of the losses that Cincinnati really had in the wildfire business was on national programs that covered countrywide. So really, what they would do is they would limit any correlation to high net worth that we would have in California. You're right, it comes with volatility. But inception to date, I believe, and Mike can check me on this, I believe inception to date, our combined ratio in Cincinnati is 95.8. I think that's right. So it's got volatility with it. But look at the provides diversifying revenue

and profit streams for us.

Okay, thank you. And I've covered the stock for a long time. I think when I first got involved in the story, John Schiff Jr. was passing the helm to Ken. And it really felt like a family operation and maybe it still does. When I see that you appointed 134 new agencies in the first core, congratulations on that, by the way. But how does that impact the culture of what Cincinnati financial is?

Yeah, thanks, Josh. I've been here 33 years and I still look at it as got the family feel. Yeah, the key there, Josh, is that we appoint high quality agencies that are aligned with Cincinnati that we see value in the way they operate professionally in their community. And they see value in a company like Cincinnati that wants to make decisions locally, handle claims fast, fair and personally. So when we see alignment, appointing more agencies is really going to fuel the growth for the company into the future. And the way you do it and keep it as a family feel is that we're still a regional company. We build everything around a field marketing rep, a field marketing territory. So every single agent that we appoint, we talk about they need to get the Cincinnati experience. And that means our local presence, starting with that field rep who's in office, who's promoting all aspects of Cincinnati insurance, but their primary function is to underwrite and price new commercialized business on the spot, that ease of doing business. The local claims rep who's there, who builds a relationship, who handles those claims fast, fair and personal. It's the same exact strategy that has served us well with 2000 agents. It will serve us well as we continue to appoint more and more. And again, I can't emphasize enough. It's not the number of agencies that we'll have over time that defines franchise value, I guess. It's the quality of those agencies and the professionalism and the alignment that they have with Cincinnati. It's a long-winded answer, Josh, but we can continue to repeat what we do over and over again through expanded distribution.

Thank you for the thorough answers.

Yeah, thank you, Josh.

Thank you. Again, if you have a question, please press star, then one. The next question comes from Paul Newsome with Piper Sandler. Please go ahead. Hey, folks.

Thanks for the call. Appreciate it. I was going to ask a question about topical issues this quarter. One is sort of a competitive environment sort of question. We've heard a lot about larger account being more competitive incrementally, some especially wise in particular. Really with even within the last quarter. I know Eddie is overwhelmingly a middle market commercial writer, but you have been moving up towards a larger end. Is it that into your experience that you're seeing some similar dynamics that other folks are that the middle market is holding in, but the larger you get, the more competitive it's been recently?

Yeah, I think that's very fair, Paul, and you've described it well. I always like to say, especially I'll just specifically talk to commercial lines. I'd say it's still rational and orderly, as you can see just by the pricing that we're getting. I think what's driving that is just that the headwinds that are out there with cat legal system abuse or social inflation, however you want to look at that, I don't see, I personally don't see an end. It'll get to an inflection point at some point, all things do, but that's still putting headwind pressure on underwriting and pricing. So I'd say that the commercial market space is rational and orderly. When you get up into larger accounts, yeah, there's no doubt that the pressure or the competition increases there, but I would say when we call larger accounts for commercial lines, isn't getting into that shared and layered, which we are experiencing with our Lloyd Syndicate. Our Lloyd Syndicate, CGU, does write a lot of direct or a fair amount of direct and fact or shared and layered, and that's what's driving their 9% written premiums down is that market has gotten soft, gotten competitive, and they're having to really show stringent underwriting discipline, and so it's putting pressure on that. Personal lines, you didn't ask about personal lines, but I'd throw it out there. That market has not, I haven't seen any waning in that. That's still both middle market and high net worth, I think are both under a tremendous amount of pressure, and we expect that pricing will continue to earn in there, and our growth throughout the rest of the year will be strong.

Another hot-button question for the quarter has been, you know, reserve issues, and you've talked a lot about cashing already. Could you maybe give us a few points on the other area that commercial auto reserve issues and trends that seem to become other hot issue of the quarter, just kind of what you're seeing, both from an internal as well as from the perspective of the industry?

Sure, Paul. This is Mike, and thanks for that question. Maybe from a high level, you know, or $91 million of favorable development, it really was out. Most of it was from, as I mentioned in my previous remarks, 2024, but, yeah, you go back only, we did have $13 million was reserve strengthening. If you go back a little further to 2021 and prior, so it's only $13 million that spread out throughout the various years. Commercial had favorable development of $43 million. The largest favorable development was commercial property at $35 million. The commercial auto, which is what you just mentioned there, so $7 million of reserve strengthening, but you got to also think about that $7 million. Our total reserve balance there is like $935 million. So it's a very small, under 1% of reserve strengthening there. And there, it was just really a little bit of a loss emergence that was higher than what we expected looking back at the years 2019 through 2021. The other years didn't see much. And so that's where that was really focused on. But, yeah, you go back, you look at total personal lines, I'll say, Sincere, ENS, or Cincinnati Global, all of those developed favorably somewhere between almost $10 million to $20 million. So, you know, I think things were good. We're following a consistent process. And, you know, we're really happy with where we're at.

Steve, going into the first question about the competitive environment. Excessive circle science, but obviously, big business for you guys. That's another hot topic of competitive issues. Anything you're seeing in your book that would be notable individually from a competitive perspective or market-wise from a competitive perspective?

Yeah, you know, Paul, I think it tracks what you're hearing with commercial lines, just the larger accounts you see more competitive pressure on. But our flow of business there, the new business opportunities has stayed strong. And as you can see, the growth and the profitability has stayed very consistent over time and just couldn't be more confident in that business too.

Thank you very much, Joyce. Appreciate the help a lot.

Thank you, Paul. Appreciate it.

The next question comes from Meyer Shields with KBW. Please go ahead.

Great. Thanks so much and good morning. Two, I hope, very quick questions. One, in industry-wise, like ISO fast-track data, we're seeing some reflection of an unusually large decrease in personal auto-physical data in frequency. And I'm wondering whether...

Yeah. Yeah, Mayor, Steve Spray. Yeah, no, I can't say that we've seen any... I can't say we've seen any similar trend in the ISO physical damage or maybe even... I don't have those numbers in front of me to match up with what we have.

Okay. Perfect. Sure enough. Second question is on Cincinnati Reef. So you had solid growth, even excluding the re-incident premiums. I was hoping you had a sense in terms of whether that growth is more casualty or property-focused.

Well, Mike can dig in here. I can tell you we have kind of pared back over the last several years on the property piece. In Cincinnati Reef, property is about 33% of what we do. Casualty is roughly 42% and specialty is another 25%. You know, and there can be some seasonality or some noise there too. Mayor, with the... On Cincinnati Reef, with the premiums just based on the estimated primary seed and premium and then what we actually... We take in... Yeah, I would agree with that, Steve. And if I'm looking at, let's say, the earned premiums between property casualty, specialty, for the first quarter, we were really about right on top of where we were at on a -to-date basis for 2024, between those breakouts. So, in the first quarter, have not seen a drift from -to-date 2024 when it comes to property, casualty, or specialty within Cincinnati Reef.

Okay. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mayor. The next question is a follow-up from Mike Zuremski with BMO.

Please go ahead.

Hey, thanks. You know, sorry to ask maybe what are perceived to be negative questions in the context of trade overall results, but just curious, anything in personal lines, maybe umbrella, other personal lines with urge losses or anything that came through with the loss ratio there? Would you like to call out?

Yeah, sure, Mike. And good catch there. You know, I would chalk it up as normal volatility, severity, but if you look in the supplemental there on the other portion, in this case, it was one inland marine claim that is driving that, and it's about 14 points that current accident year X cat.

Inland Marine, just thanks for the color. Just to clarify what type of policy is that?

Yeah, it's a watercraft.

Watercraft, yes. But beyond

that, yeah, beyond that, I wouldn't go, I wouldn't want to go any deeper on an individual claim. Okay.

All right. Thank you so much. Thank you.

This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Steve Spray, CEO, for any closing remarks.

Thank you, Dorlan. And thank you all for joining us today. We hope to see some of you at our annual meeting of shareholders this Saturday, May 3rd at the Cincinnati Art Museum. You're also welcome to listen to our webcast of the meeting available at .cinfin.com. We also look forward to speaking with all of you again

on our second quarter call. Have a great day.

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.