International General Insurance Holdings Ltd.

Good day, and welcome to the International General Insurance Holdings, LTD's, Fourth Quarter, 2024 Financial Results Conference Call. All participants are in listen-only mode. Should you need assistance, please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To ask a question, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. To withdraw your question, please press star and then two. Please note this event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to Robin Siders, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Thanks, Dave, and good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's conference call. Today we'll be discussing our fourth quarter and full year results. You will have seen our press release that we issued last night after the market closed. If you'd like a copy of the press release, you can find it on our website at iginsure.com. We've also posted a supplementary investor presentation, which can also be found on our website presentations page in the investor section. On today's call, our executive chairman of IGI, Wasif Jabshae. President and CEO, Olive Jobche, and Chief Financial Officer, Pervez Rizvi. As always, Wasif will begin the call with some high-level comments before handing over to Olive to walk you through the key drivers of the results for the quarter and the full year and finish up with some views, with our views on market conditions and our outlook for the rest of 2025. At that point, we'll open up for Q&A. I'll begin with the customary safe harbor language. Our speaker's remarks may contain forward-looking statements. Some of the forward-looking statements can be identified by the use of forward-looking statements. We caution you that such forward-looking statements would not be regarded as expensive by us, but the future planned estimates or expectations contemplated by us will in fact be. Forward-looking statements involve risks, uncertainties, and assumptions. Actual events and results may differ materially from those connected to forward-looking statements due to a variety of factors including the annual report on Form 20F for the year ended December 31st, 2023, and the company's report on Form 68 and other filings in the SEC, as well as the results of that release that we issued yesterday. We undertake no obligation to update or revise publicly any form. It takes people only as they are made. Also, during the call, we'll use non-GAAP financial measures. For recommendation of non-GAAP financial measures for the nearest GAAP measure, please see our earnings release compiled with the information and available on the website. With that, I'll now turn the call over to our Executive Chairman, Wasim.

Thank you, Robin, and good day, everyone. Thank you for joining us on today's call. We had another outstanding year in 2024. We reported solid results across all of our most important financial metrics, including growth in book value per share of almost 20%, and with dividends included of over 24%. These results once again demonstrate our focus, discipline and consistency in execution and our proficiency in actively managing our capital so that we deliver on the promises we have made to our clients and shareholders. While 2024 was an excellent year, we prefer to look at things over a longer period. We've been in this business for 23 years now, and it's just about five years to the day since we began trading as a public company. For the 18 years prior to going public, we built a successful track record of consistent, strong performance, generating significant value for our shareholders. But it would be fair to say that for any company going public, especially in the United States, they will have to prove themselves all over again. I can confidently say that we have done that over the past five years. We have very clearly demonstrated our ability to not just maintain our track record, but to improve upon it. Our achievements during this period have been nothing short of remarkable. We have doubled the size of our underwriting portfolio, adding new lines of business and entering new markets, including the United States, making us a truly global specialty insurer and reinsurer. We have significantly strengthened our balance sheet to accommodate our larger risk portfolio, more than doubling our asset base, our investments and cash portfolio and our capital position. Most importantly over this time, we have delivered an average core operating return on equity of 20.1%, compounded annual growth in book value per share of 12.3%, and demonstrated our proficiency in actively managing our capital, returning a total of $116.3 million to shareholders in dividends and share purchases. In addition to our financial achievements, I'm particularly proud of our non-financial achievements over the past five years. Most notably for me, that we have carefully and thoughtfully preserved our cultural integrity. I have always thought of IGI as a family working together, sharing perspectives and having mutual respect for one another. and this culture remains deeply embedded across the company today. This is particularly impressive given our rapid growth and has resulted in continued stability in our performance and the excellent results we have achieved. As we look to the years ahead, I'm confident that we will continue to deliver on our promise of consistent value creation to all our stakeholders. I will now hand over to Walid, who will discuss the numbers in more detail and talk about market conditions and our outlook for the year ahead. I'll remain on the call for any questions at the end.

Thank you. Thank you, Wasit. Good morning, everybody. And thank you all for joining us today. I'm pleased to be talking to you this morning about another quarter and full year of solid financial results. We generated solid top and bottom line results in the fourth quarter, translating to a 77.8% combined ratio, record core operating income of 40.9 million and a 25% core operating return on equity. For the full year, we grew top line marginally by just under 2%. Our view of top line growth, as we said before, clearly changed during the course of 2024, as we saw increased competition pressuring rates in many lines in many of our markets. Nevertheless, we generated a combined ratio of just under 80%, record net income of 135.2 million, and record core operating income of almost $145 million, leading to return on average equity of 22.6% and core operating return on average equity of 24.2% for the year. Before I delve into the details of the results, I'd just like to reflect a little more on Wasif's comments in the past five years. As he just noted, you know, we'll mark our fifth anniversary of being a public company in just a few weeks. While Wasif noted the financial achievements we've made during this time, I'd like to focus a little bit more on the non-financial achievements. We went public on March 18th, 2020. At the time, and in spite of a rich 18 year history in this business, we were a virtually unknown Middle Eastern company with a market value of around $400 million. You may recall that within days of us listing on NASDAQ, the UK, the US and virtually the entire world, all facing an unprecedented global pandemic went into lockdown, effectively preventing us from traveling to meet our shareholders face to face and practically erasing any ability to target prospective new investors. In the first few years, we were in the throes of the despacking process, which can be somewhat a complex one all while adjusting to the demands of life as a public company five years ago we were a group of about 225 people across five offices writing less than 400 million dollars in gross premium today we're over 450 people across eight offices and as you will have seen in we just closed 2024 with premiums of over 700 million dollars during this time we entered new markets most notably the US. We added new lines of business like contingency. We opened offices in Bermuda and Oslo and also Malta where we established our European platform. We created efficiencies by taking previously outsourced services in-house such as SOX reporting, various IT functions and delegated authority oversight. We bolstered our underwriting capabilities across all our offices. And most recently in our London Underwriting Center, we established a presence at Lloyd's and relocated to new offices that are more conducive to supporting our marketing activities and enhancing our visibility with key audiences. We've made these accomplishments while producing some of the best financial results in our history and reaching a market cap that is currently hovering around the $1.2 billion mark. And most importantly, through it all, we've maintained our unique and deeply rooted culture, one characterized by high performance, collaboration, and mutual respect. So it's safe to say that our progress has been truly remarkable, as Wasis mentioned. Now returning to our usual agenda, I'll recap our Q4 and full year numbers before moving on to our view of the market. Starting with the top line, gross revenues were up just under 6% in the fourth quarter, mainly driven by growth in the short tail and reinsurance segments. For the full year, growth premiums were up just under 2% when compared to 23%. I'll talk in a moment about what we're seeing in our markets and what we're expecting in terms of top line. But as I said in last quarter's call, there are opportunities for new business, but we're having to work harder to find them, and that's exactly what we're doing. But I want to be clear that if the profitability in these new opportunities don't meet our requirements, we will simply not write the business. This is all part of effectively managing the cycle with our focus always on bottom line profitability. Our combined ratio of 77.8% for the fourth quarter and 79.9% for the full year are very healthy and they reflect the continued strong performance of the group. saw a more elevated loss environment. I mean, we had hurricanes Helene and Milton, extreme flooding in Europe and the UAE, the Taiwan earthquake, and also the convective storms in the US. Our share of those losses has been very manageable. And this clearly illustrates the resilience we've created in a larger and more diversified portfolio. Just a few comments on our segment results. In our short tail segment, gross premiums were up marginally in the fourth quarter and up just shy of 3% for the full year. Earned premium was relatively flat compared to the fourth quarter of 23 and up over 8% for the full year. Underwriting income was down in the fourth quarter driven largely by a higher level of losses, but up almost 5% for the full year in spite of the elevated loss activity. I'd note here that the new business opportunities in engineering, contingency, marine lines such as ports and terminals, marine cargo, and to a lesser degree, the property lines were offset by contraction of more than 25% in our aviation book. The reinsurance segment performed very well overall. The fourth quarter year over year comparison is somewhat distorted, though, by the true up in the fourth quarter of 23. For the full year, which is a much better indicator, gross premiums were up more than 36%. In this segment, both underwriting income and net earned premiums were up significantly in the fourth quarter and full year when compared to the same periods of the year before. The long tail segment was the most challenging area of our portfolio and where we saw, again, some expected contraction in the book. It was down about one and a half points in Q4 and almost 10 points for the full year. Again, what you're seeing here is the effect of discipline we're exercising in risk selection and all part of being strong cycle managers in the business. As a result, net earned premiums were down compared to the same periods in 23, underwriting income more than doubled in the fourth quarter due to a higher level of losses recorded in the fourth quarter of the previous year versus this one. But again, a better indicator would be the full year in that underwriting income was down a little over 30%. Overall, in the long-tail segment, what I said in prior quarters remains the same, that for the foreseeable future, we're likely to continue to see rates under pressure, and we continue to take a more cautious view here until market conditions do improve. Net income for the fourth quarter was 30 million, For the full year, net income was slightly above $135 million, up almost 15% from the prior year. And a record result for us, all due to solid underwriting margins and better investment income. But again, noting the impact that the redemption of the warrants had on the full year results of 2023. Core operating income was a record $40.9 million in Q4. and a record $144.8 million for the full year of 24. Turning to the balance sheet, total assets increased almost 11%, over $2 billion. Our investments and cash portfolio grew by more than 14% during the year. Our allocation to fixed income, which makes up approximately 78% of our portfolio, generated almost $52 million in investment income. which represents an increase of almost 30% over the year before with a yield of 4.3%. Note we kept duration relatively stable at 3.2 years. Total equity increased 21.1% to over $650 million at December 31st when compared to the same point of last year before. I would note that year-end total equity was impacted by a mark-to-market loss of about $22 million on our bond portfolio during Q4, but remember that we hold our bonds to maturity. During the fourth quarter, we repurchased more than 220,000 common shares, taking us up to just under 1.5 million shares for the full year. As of the 31st December, this leaves approximately 2.3 million shares remaining under our existing 7.5 million repurchase authorization. Ultimately, we recorded a return on average shareholds equity of 18.4% for the fourth quarter and 22.6% for the full year, and a core operating ROE of 25% for Q4 and 24.2% for the full year. Lastly, and most importantly, book value per share was $14.85, at the end of the year, representing a year-over-year increase of just under 20%. So as I said at the outset, another excellent year for IGI. I congratulate all of our people for the results we've achieved, both financial and non-financial. This is very much a team effort, and together we've made incredible progress in maximizing our efforts through better collaboration, better communication, creating more efficiencies across our offices and within units, and being more active in our marketing efforts, all of which have laid a very solid foundation for the coming years. Looking ahead, I'm still confident that we can find good opportunities to write new business across many lines within our portfolios. This is the benefit, even with our relatively small size, of having a well-diversified portfolio of risks. We have more optionality and more levers to work with to shift our focus and pivot to those areas with the strongest rate momentum and the highest margins. All this while always remaining disciplined, selective and consistent and working within our well-defined risk appetite and tolerances. Our presence in key territories is critical in allowing us to see emerging trends and respond quickly and decisively. and capturing the business locally. This is especially important today as we're seeing increasing competitive pressures and many of our international markets are becoming stronger and more relevant. And what's clear is their ability and desire to retain business or to retain more business locally within these domestic markets. I'm particularly pleased with all the work we've done in anticipation of a more competitive environment. We differentiate ourselves through our strong technical capabilities, underwriting discipline, and of course, the quality of service we provide. Our underwriting teams are led by seasoned professionals who are very well versed in the cyclicality and volatility of this business. They've managed cycles through the good times and the more difficult times, and they understand that relationships matter. And this is one of our strengths and what enables us to compete against companies that are much much larger than us. Specifically on what we're seeing in our markets, there's clearly a heightened degree of competitive pressure generally, as I said, and 2025 has gotten off to a challenging start with significantly elevated loss activity, particularly in short tail and reinsurance lines, and long tail lines continue to be pressured. I'll start with the long tail segment. Net rates overall remain adequate despite several consecutive quarters of decline. As I said a moment ago, we're seeing some signs of rate stabilizing, not broad stabilization, but in some areas like PI, the pace of rate decline is slowing and the book overall is still rate adequate. I'd note that these comments are specific to the long tail lines that we write. So, you know, all of which, as we've said many times before in the UK and international markets and not the US where the story is clearly different. our short-term portfolio remains more of a mixed bag rates overall remain broadly steady with what we saw in 24 with a fair bit of variation by line and geography it's definitely increasingly competitive i mean so far in the first quarter as i said we've seen significantly more active loss environment with the wildfires in california as well as a number of major risk losses globally And it remains really to be seen what impact this loss activity will have on market conditions. Energy business is obviously one of our largest and most important classes. Onshore energy is seeing an increase in competitive pressures, while rates are holding up a little bit better on the power side. So here we're also seeing more competition as well with new capacity entering the market. Offshore energy, by contrast, has faced several consecutive quarters of decline. and continues to be quite challenging. Other areas which continue to show stability, decent trade adequacy include property, both US and international, ports and terminals, marine cargo, marine lines in general still looking quite positive, contingency, which is an area we're still seeing some good opportunities in. Construction engineering is definitely a bright spot. with really healthy opportunities in North America, regions such as Asia Pac and MENA. General aviation, however, continues to be one of the outliers. And as I've said, we've contracted that book quite significantly after several quarters of rate reductions. But I would note that there's been a recent uptick in loss activity in that space, and that may just may help stabilize rates for 2025. In the reinsurance segment, about two-thirds of our treaty book renews in Q1, and what we've seen so far is probably fairly consistent with what you've heard from others. There was a more aggressive push for market share towards the end of the year in the last final weeks, and consequently rates were down around 5 to 10 points at 1.1. with some pockets of great improvement on loss affected business. Coverage has remained relatively stable on a positive note. The remainder of our book is weighted towards international exposures, which predominantly renew in Q2 and Q3. This is where I expect we'll see some new opportunities which meet our profitability targets. It's safe to say that 2025 has gotten off to a rather challenging start for our industry. For IGI specifically, I mentioned the losses previously, but for IGI specifically, we expect our losses from the California wildfires as well as the other risk losses that have been incurred so far in Q1 to be manageable for IGI. In our geographic markets, the US has been the biggest growth area for us, and we expect that will continue to be one of the markets with the greatest opportunity for us to write new business and grow. We're a very small player here in the grand scheme of things, and we remain cautious and always mindful of our risk appetite and our tolerances, especially when there's excessive cash risk involved. In 2024, we wrote a total of just over $120 million in gross premium in the US, which, as I said, is a drop in the ocean of what is almost a $2 trillion market. So there's plenty of room to grow here, both with respect to our treaty portfolio, our reinsurance segment, as well as our short tail segment. Europe also remains a growth area for us, but it's got slightly different dynamics from the US. Europe is much more about relationships, so it takes a little longer time to penetrate. In 2024, we expanded our European presence adding capabilities, new products to our offering in both our Malta and Oslo offices. And as we've said previously, enhance our marketing activities. And in 2024, we wrote approximately, well, almost $90 million in gross premiums across all segments of our business. Similarly, in the MENA and Asia Pacific regions, we have some excellent talent on the ground, which we have grown over pretty much across the board over the last few years. And we've enhanced our marketing activities and the collaboration between our regional offices in London across regions. And this is producing some great opportunities for us. So quite a bit to digest. We have rapidly evolving market dynamics. And from a macro perspective, we continue to face global financial and geopolitical pressures and a clearly heightened degree of polarization. In conclusion, we are fully prepared for these headwinds. I'll go back to what Wasif said at the outset. We've proven ourselves and our ability to deliver on our promises as a public company over the past five years, just as we did as a private one 18 years before that. We are in our strongest position ever. We've got the right people with the right capabilities and a deeply embedded performance-based culture. We've got a well-defined and understood strategy We are details focused. We have a deep understanding of our markets with experienced people on the ground, providing a high level of cultural compatibility. We communicate with transparency and we execute with precision. With this excellent foundation, I'm absolutely confident that we will continue to serve as a stable market for our customers and generate excellent value for our shareholders in 2025. So I'm going to pause here and we'll turn it over for questions. Operator, we're ready to take the first question, please.

We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask a question, you may press star then 1 on your touchtone phone. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. If at any time your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw your question, please press star and then 2. Our first question comes from Michael Phillips with Oppenheimer. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Good morning, everybody. Thanks for the time. First off, congrats on the quarter. Congrats on another great year. Totally showing your focus on the underwriting side of the business, which is quite unique. Let me start with this. I apologize in advance. I think this question is pretty general, but maybe it's a good chance to kind of rehash your thoughts on this. Well, you're making it pretty clear that the competitive environment is more intense, and you know, walk away from business that's not profitable and, you know, stay into your focus on the bottom line. Great. But I guess the question is, companies would be envious of a company that's not even at an 80% combined ratio for 2024. So it feels like there's still more room for that to move up and get more business. And I guess I'm just kind of asking at a high level, how you think about that balance of, you know, can we get a little more aggressive maybe it's too strong of a word but are there more opportunities for growth that can help the top line even in this current rate environment given you've got quite a still strong margin so just thinking about that overall balance for you guys internally how you think about that thanks hi mike thanks thanks for the question it's a good question um i think i think for us it's it's you know uh we we

there is no lack of ambition at IGI to grow or to want to grow, right? So that's unquestionable. I think the point here is, you know, the appetite and risk appetite, risk tolerances vary from company to company. Yes, the margins we're generating are very healthy and that's the end of, you know, the market. But I think our approach to the business is a reflection of why those results are generated. We're constantly out there looking for new opportunities, looking for opportunities to grow. But at the end of the day, we have to understand and the way we look at it ourselves is that we have to understand who we are and what our true capabilities are, whether they be financial, intellectual, whatever it is. and work and ensure to stay within those risk tolerances. Because we operate in a very punitive industry. We are relatively a small business compared to, you know, in the larger scheme of things. We are a lot more resilient than we were five years ago, as I mentioned earlier. But we still have to appreciate that our size is what it is. And there are bets. we can take and are willing to take and there are bets that we can't and cannot willing to take. And some of the business that we write, some of the lines that we write can be very or quite volatile. So tweaking your appetite, you know, for certain areas it would work and it is actually certain lines of business discussions we are having internally. But for other areas, especially the more volatile ones, you want to stick to your guns and stick to your philosophy, which has proven time and time again that it delivers. And just work within your comfort zone. It's all about discipline at the end of the day. I'd rather generate an 80% combined ratio writing a $700 million book of business than a 90% find ratio writing a billion dollar book of business. I'll make more money with the smaller portfolio.

I think that hits it right there. That last sentence, perfect. Thank you. Thanks for all that. That's super helpful. I certainly appreciate that last comment. Thank you for that. I guess California, you said the California wildfire losses would be manageable. Appreciate that. I guess, can you just talk in general about that? Do the losses that we're seeing in California that are sort of almost always there now, but this year being pretty bad at the start of the year, does it change your appetite of how much you want to grow in California at all for your short-tail business? And then kind of related also in California with the losses, what do you think this does to reinsurance going forward?

I think it's too early to tell what it does to reinsurance going forward. You know, after an event like this, Mike, naturally, anybody in my position or our position would expect things to change and things to change for the better in terms of pricing. That is yet to be seen. I think it's too early to tell. But, you know, it's very safe to say that the industry hasn't gotten off to a good start to the year. If the market does move positively, and present much more attractive opportunities, whether they be in California or anywhere, any other part of the world, that is exactly where we'd be going. So that is exactly what we've always done. You know, wherever there's dislocation in our industry, there's definitely opportunity. And so if pricing improves dramatically in California, if coverage is improved dramatically from a selling perspective dramatically in California or any other parts of the world, that will definitely be on our radar to attack more aggressively.

Okay. No, that makes sense. Thank you. Maybe one more if I could and then I'll come back if need be. How does your view of I think it's around 20, using MGAs for the underwriting side. How does your view of wanting to use that change as marketing conditions change? In other words, if we're in a more competitive rate environment, do you like that side of the business more or do you like it less or does it not matter?

I think with MGAs, you've got to be careful whether the market is in a good state or the market is in a bad state. Giving your pen away is always something no one should take lightly. That said, we would never really give our pen away to an MGA that does exactly what we do. That doesn't add any value to our portfolios, our business, and it effectively creates more competition to what we're doing in the markets we're operating already. So where we do add MGAs or support MGAs is where they're they're accretive to the portfolios that we have and they're differentiating from the business that we already write, whether it's geographical, whether it's the dynamic of the business. And usually they've got the distribution and the infrastructure to be able to capture and service that business that we simply don't have. and at least at this point are not willing to sort of invest in. So hard market, soft market, you've got to be careful. But if you find the right niche opportunities, then absolutely, we will continue to support MGAs. And that is part of the plan. We've beefed up our internal dedicated authority oversight function and ensuring that, you know, in that push towards, you know, finding and targeting and finding new portfolios of business, we've got the infrastructure and we're ready to fully, you know, stay on top of that, service it and ensure you know, it doesn't go wrong.

Okay, thank you. I appreciate your answers there, Willie. I'll hop off and maybe come back if there's time. Appreciate it. Thanks for that.

Thanks, man. And the next question comes from Scott Heliniak with RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Yeah, thanks for the morning. Just the first question was just on the core loss ratio. It continues to be excellent, very profitable, lower than what other specialty peers are seeing. I know you don't have the U.S. long tail exposure, social inflation. I definitely get that. But is there anything else you can point to on why that continues to track so much lower than peers? And just anything you're seeing on the loss trend front as well on your long tail book?

would be would be helpful yeah uh hi scott thanks for the question um excuse me i don't i don't think it's i mean i don't don't necessarily have an answer to why we continue to track better than others i think it's just the our approach to the business and our focus on bottom line um you'll note that our Practically most, if not all of our competition has grown top line in bigger ways than we have, especially in 2024. I think, you know, you've just got to do what's best for yourself. I think that being said, yes, it has been a more competitive environment. The rates that are flowing through the financials now are predominantly from the back years when the rates were still stronger than they are. So that, that, but honestly, I think it's just all down to discipline and adjusting, shifting focus, you know, and aviation is a good example where we've said now for a good, you know, four to six quarters, it's, you know, that, that, that the, that the market, the landscape is, is, is, is highly inadequate. And, and, and, you know, as a result, we've, we've, contracted the book by 25% in 2024 on top of a 10 to 15% contraction in 2023. And you've got to be able to do that. And then shift focus, you've seen the growth in our treaty portfolio where the market's been a lot more attractive. And we've doubled the book in 2023. increased it by more than 35% again last year. So it's just being as opportunistic as you can and focusing your attention on those areas where we think returns are going to be healthiest. You know, it really isn't rocket science what we do. I mean, it's just really being patient, being disciplined, and not putting... not putting yourself under pressure to grow. Because that, especially in the market that we're in at the moment, can be very detrimental. That being said, we've spoken about the losses, everybody's focused on California, but there's been a lot of other risk losses across the piece, some in the US, some in Europe, a little bit in in Asia and, and, uh, you know, hopefully these, these will, will, will focus the mind, um, and, and, and maybe, um, get more discipline back into the, uh, uh, into the market and remind people that, you know, our business is the business of taking risk and, and risk is expensive or can be.

Yep. No, that makes sense. I would imagine, too, it speaks to how you feel about the growth you've seen in U.S. and Europe business over the past couple of years. I would imagine it would be reflected in those core loss ratios that you feel pretty good about that profitability as well. Is that a fair statement, too?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, at the end, we are seeing – Europe has always been a tough market, right? It's dominated by the local, large European continental players So getting into Europe is a bigger challenge, in my opinion. But we're on our way to do that. We make progress year after year. And we're very pleased with where we are today and where we're heading. The US, I mean, when we entered the US market, it was highly dislocated. Our timing was very advantageous as an underwriter. But we're wary of the risks that come in writing business in the US, albeit it does not include long tail lines. We've grown that book over the last five years gradually, methodically. It's now 120 million odd portfolio, which as I said earlier, is still very small compared to the size of the market. overall. The market is becoming more competitive, but I think, again, as we've always said, it's not about rate movement, it's about rate adequacy. And in most areas, it's still relatively adequate. And as long as it is, then we will continue to pursue growth in those markets.

Okay, great. And then, I wonder if you could talk about, just comment, what you're seeing on the pricing environment. I think we're all probably most people on the call are pretty aware of what's happening in the U.S. pricing environment. But just in some of the other markets, Europe, Middle East, Asia, just expand on kind of what you're seeing, or rates up or down or flattish, just kind of generally speaking. And I know you mentioned also you see new business opportunities kind of outside of the U.S. If you can balance that with the rate commentary with the growth opportunities there outside of the U.S.

Yeah, I think if you look at the markets outside of the US, I mean, our biggest markets are Europe, the Middle East and Asia, right? So as you mentioned, I mean, each one has its own dynamics. I mean, Europe is a big market, it's a big continent. So it varies by country, it varies by line of business. I would say that it's pretty much in line with what you're seeing everywhere else. I think the long tail lines there are getting tougher, but it's good business still there. You know, short tail lines and reinsurance will move in tandem with the global markets, especially with the business that we're trying to capture or do capture, which is a larger business. I mean, for Middle East and Asia, definitely getting more competitive as well. I mean, again, it's pretty much in sync with what we're seeing, what we're seeing generally across various lines of business. That being said, there are areas, as I mentioned earlier, like construction engineering that we are extremely optimistic about. And I think the opportunity there will only develop further in the coming quarters and years. And the construction market and engineering underwriting market has been one of the markets that has held most positively and has not come down in the same way that other lines of business have. That being said, as I said earlier, again, I repeat, it's about rate adequacy and not rate movement. and generally across the piece you know the adequacy is still there in those geographical uh territories in those areas that we uh are focusing on growth will be tougher because there's more competition there's more capacity there's more hunger you're not benefiting from rate increases that you benefited off from you know two three four years ago um uh and that's that that's Hence the comment I made earlier about having to work harder to find the business. And we will. So, you know, it's managing the market, managing the cycle, nothing new. Been there before and we'll do what we need to do to the best of our ability.

Okay. That's great, Colin. Just one last one. I didn't see any mention of Hurricane Milton losses. Did you have any losses in there? If so, were you able to share what those were?

Milton was negligible to us. That's why we didn't even mention him. Not really worth mentioning. So, yeah, it was nothing.

Yep. Okay. Thanks for all the answers.

Thanks, Scott. This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to management for any closing remarks.

uh just a quick thank you for all to all of you for for uh joining us today and thanks of course as always for your continued support of igi as always if you have any additional questions please get in touch with robin and she'll be happy to assist thanks again and we look forward to speaking with you on next quarter's call have a good day everyone

The conference is now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.