Kulicke and Soffa Industries, Inc.

Greetings and welcome to the CO-LIC and SOFA 2024 third quarter results. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. If anyone should require operator assistance during the conference, please press star zero on your telephone keypad. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Joe, Elgandy, Director of Investor Relations. Thank you, Joe. You may begin.

Thank you. Welcome, everyone, to Kuala Lumpur's fiscal third quarter 2024 conference call. Susan Chen, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Lester Wong, Chief Financial Officer, are also joining on today's call. Non-GAAP financial measures referenced today should be considered in addition to, not as a substitute for, or in isolation from, our GAAP financial information. Gap to non-gap reconciliation tables are included within our latest earnings release and earnings presentation. Both are available at investor.kns.com along with prepared remarks for today's call. In addition to historical statements, today's remarks will contain statements relating to future events and our future results. These statements are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our actual results and financial condition to differ materially from the statements made today. For a complete discussion of the risks associated with CULIC and SOFA that could affect our future results and financial condition, please refer to our recent and upcoming SEC filings, specifically our latest form 10K, as well as the 8K filed today. With that said, I'll now turn the call over to Fuzhen Chen for the business overview. Please go ahead, Fuzhen.

Thank you, Joe. Good afternoon, everyone. Throughout the past quarters, we continue to execute on several growth initiatives, including driving critical progress in advanced packaging and advanced dispense qualification, enjoying broadening adoption of our new multi-solution, while we also observe ongoing utilization improvement across several of our key end markets. Before reviewing our quarterly results and performance, I would like to mention a few points on the recent industry momentum within thermal compression. There have been three key milestones which we are excited to explain. First, the formation of as well as our membership in the US Joint Semiconductor Consortium was announced last month. Resonec Holding Corporation, leading provider of global semiconductor materials, formed this consortium to support industry collaboration and the market adoption of new advanced packaging production solution. After joint and the joint tool were created in Japan, the U.S. joint consortium represents the third joint consortium globally and the first in the United States. A combination of 10 leading equipment materials and the process company based in the U.S. and Japan represents the U.S. joint forming members who have the near-term goal to establish a U.S.-based R&D facility with advanced packaging capability. Construction for the U.S.-based R&D facility will begin in the current calendar year, and at completion will provide access for critical industry-leading advanced packaging technologies, materials, and processes which are not readily available locally to many of our U.S.-based customers. Our second TCP milestone is associated with collaboration with a subsidiary of a large semiconductor conglomerate, who has successfully demonstrated our leading fluxless thermocompression, or FTC system, which is capable of direct copper-to-copper bonding as a center feature, can also enable an exciting new chip-to-wafer hybrid bonding process. Hybrid bonding involves making both conductive and dielectric bonds, provide specific benefit for select end market. With a lower requirement for capital intensive frame and investment relative to existing chip to wafer hybrid solution, we expect this boundless FTC process to further expand our long-term chip net and heterogeneous opportunities. As explained by industry headline, there are many hybrid bonding processes including wafer-to-wafer as well as chip-to-wafer. This innovative PCB enables hybrid solution target chip-to-wafer application for deployment in high-volume consumer and compute market by offering a lower capital intensive path to hybrid-based chipnet assembly. At a higher level, adopting triplet-based packaging can reduce product development time, allow for amortizing design costs over a broader air market, and is critically important in extending most loads. With that said, our existing FTC system, which can bound copper-to-copper interconnect as standard features, can provide a more direct pathway to triplet-based production. For many customers, those who seeking chip-to-wafer hybrid option now has an additional alternative. As the industry accelerates the adoption of thermal compression, we continue to enjoy growing commercial success and broadening market access through our intimate and expanding customer engagement. Over the past four years, on a trading basis, our TCP business has grown by 10 times. and we are still in the early stage. This was accomplished through new access to silicon photonics, 3D sensing, and the leading edge market, including our first mobile solution in flexible PCB at the leading IDM customers. We have continued to drive industry adoption and have announced several wins in the assembly and the test space earlier today, highlighting these rapidly growing opportunities. Also, we continue to make progress in our foundry engagement and remain very optimistic that we can unlock an additional leading edge customers over the near term. Similar to our initial IBM customer engagement, which began in 2020, new technology win with a leading customer require a lengthy and collaborative engagement process and a significant patient. This recent win and evaluation progress have solidified our THC process as a long-term solution to support the growing adoption of triplet-based architectures. While there are several different technologies and processes to support the diverse needs of the future triplet market, we are well prepared to support the industry with our leading solutions. We are clearly excited as we are securing position in a new market supporting AI, HPC, and mobility, which have historically not included from our self-market. This win provides confidence in our leadership as well as long-term potentials for flux-less adoption. Due to thermal compression adaptability, out-of-box couple-to-couple capability and a broader customer set, it provides lower value to entries for mass market triplet adoption. Some combinations remain an emerging technology with a long technology life ahead to support this growing market need. Even intercontinental technology can be challenging. for analysts and the investors to focus, although I would like to remind investors to not overly focus on one specific interconnect technology. There are many packaging transitions across our end market with a growing number of trade-offs, largely between cost and performance, but also production capability and the system label requirement. It's critically important to recognize that the high-volume cost-sensitive portion of the semiconductor assembly market will also need a stack die solution over the long term. These varied market needs are becoming more evident every quarter as we are actively developing several multi-die and stack die solutions, which are being evaluated across our customer base. Many of these higher-volume opportunities will likely demand more cost-effective processes, such as vertical wires, and remain independent from many of today's PCB and hybrid-focused markets. From our humble wire bonding route, we are pleased with our new market footing and access we have demonstrated. Recent customer adoption combined with ongoing innovation provide a strong foundation to support long-term advanced packaging adoption. I'm very proud of our team for developing and driving the recent customer success across the portfolio. Turning to a June quarter business result, we were able to achieve our guidance midpoint while generating slightly more non-GAAP EPS than anticipated due to our operational focus. At high level, we expect most of our end markets have already experienced trough level of demand over the past 18 months. Over this time, certain markets began showing signs of improvement while other markets faced headwinds that restrict our corporate level performance. For example, our world bonding revenue on a year-to-date basis has improved by 42%. Despite this relatively meaningful level of improvement, we also experienced offset due to well-known automotive and industrial headwinds, which reduced wage demand earlier this year. At this point, we are pleased to begin seeing signs of multiple end markets are improving gradually, allowing better coordination, and we remain optimistic. While the market environment has become more positive, we expect our high-volume solutions are still well below the normal demand level we would consider sustainable for the broader industry. Our cobalt and weight businesses have room to grow. Looking at our end market more specifically, we continue to see utilization improvement in general semiconductor, pocket-of-demand improvement in LED automotive and industrial, resilience in APS, and ongoing recovery in memory. Within general semiconductor utilization layer, full wall bounding have continued improved sequentially. A lot have yet. reached the critical tipping point expected to try high-volume customer to broadly require capacity addition. This order activity has centered around high-volume region, where iteration rate has averaged over 80% for the past two quarters. At the same time, the rest of the world has lagged slightly, but is continuing to improve. As expected, global bull-boundary valuation rates have exceeded 75% last quarter and are anticipated to be in the high 70% range during the fourth fiscal quarter. Looking into fiscal 2025, we continue to anticipate semiconductor unit growth expectations will support an additional step-up in demand for our high-volume solution. We also anticipate ongoing industry growth will continue into calendar 2025 based on market forecast, but also due to ongoing global front-end related investment. In addition to the improving general semiconductor dynamic, we also booked approximately $20 million in thermal compression revenue during June quarter. which includes our recognition of an additional FTC system, which supports the recent TCP-enabled hybrid development milestone. With automotive in the industry, we have also seen improvement in demand, as our intercom leadership position is actively supporting emerging processes utilized in efficient power storage, power delivery, and power control for electric vehicles, charging infrastructures, industrial applications, and sustainable energy generation. We continue to see many innovations affecting power semiconductor assembly, which are driving the need for more robust interconnect technologies, such as our recent high-power interconnect, or HPI, solution within wedge bonding. being deployed in high-volume battery production as well as for more efficient power conversion required for charging and sustainable energy applications. We remain directly involved with several global EV manufacturers, the broader power semiconductor technology transitions, as well as the leaders in the dynamic battery market. Of note this quarter, we continue to support an exciting dispense opportunity recently deployed with leading solid-state battery companies. Whilst the market of automotive and industrial may still be digesting capacity, we expect ongoing improvement to continue throughout fiscal 2025. Within memory, We see customers investing in new capacity and technology, which is supporting the NAND market and gaining support for new stack die solutions in the large and established LOP DDR market. Wire NAND is arguably the largest stack die market in the semiconductor market, relying nearly exclusively on wire bonding technology. We expect high-volume DRAM to transition to 3D packaging format over the coming years. Several important leaders in the memory market are expected to accelerate development and the pre-production activity over the coming quarters, with higher volume production to begin in late calendar 2025 or early 2026. Similar to growing leading-edge and high-volume assembly needs for chip-based architectures, the memory market continues to seek out new ways to leverage packaging technology to drive greater transistor density per area. Our thermal combination and vertical wire solutions are anticipated to more effectively meet the mass market's performance. manufacturability, and the cost requirement, thus emerging technology such as a cheap label heavy bonding that can prohibit the expensive due to the requirement for front-end capability as well as a non-year challenge. We remain in a very unique industry position and evident in our leadership enabling critical technology transition such as a direct copper-to-copper and a flux-less adoption. for leading-edge applications, high-power interconnect solutions for automotive and industrial applications, and vertical wire solutions for high-volume consumer-oriented markets. These emerging solutions supplement our existing broad portfolio of interconnect solutions. We are aware of positions to support customers' needs while delivering significant long-term value to investors. In closing, After nearly two years of capacity digestion, we are pleased to continue seeing gradual signs of broader-based cyclical recovery across multiple end markets. The government recently projected a 17% semiconductor revenue industry growth rate through calendar year 2025. This growth expectation seems very reasonable considering ongoing global front-end investment and is expected to be later primarily by AI, automotive, and the general semiconductor, which we expect will directly benefit the company and its investors. Global integration rate, we are moving to the higher 70% range, also increased confidence for a more robust 2025 recovery. I will now turn the call over to Lester for the financial review update.

Thank you, Fusun. My remarks today will refer to GAAP results unless noted. While there continues to be headwinds across specific end markets, it remains a transformative time for the company. As Susan mentioned, multiple end markets are showing signs of improvement represented in utilization rates as well as growth expectations into next year, while momentum in our portfolio of advanced taxing solutions is accelerating through both our direct customer qualifications and broadening industry adoption. During the June quarter, we generated $181.7 million of revenue and a 46.6% gross margin. Gross margin were largely affected by product and customer mix. Operating expenses came in slightly lower than expected as we have maintained a significant focus on operational efficiency as our development teams remain nimble and were effectively reallocated to support in-demand projects over the past quarter. DAF tax expense came in at $4.1 million during the June quarter. We continue to anticipate an effective tax rate above 20% through the remainder of fiscal year 2024, largely related to our R&D tax treatment under Section 174. Our repurchase program remains opportunistic, and we have again increased our repurchase activity sequentially. During the June quarter, we booked $44 million of open market repurchase activity, which represents a sequential increase of nearly 18% and a 64% increase over the previous December quarter. As a reference point, we repurchased $728.5 million through both open market and accelerated repurchase activity under the existing repurchase program since August of 2017. At the end of the June quarter, we had approximately $73 million remaining on this existing share repurchase authorization. In addition to the long-term nature of our share repurchase program, we continue to support an industry-leading dividend program as we continue to execute our new long-term growth opportunities. As Susan clearly explained, we remain very optimistic in a broader multi-market recovery over the coming quarters. Although we may not be at the tipping point yet, we anticipate meaningful capacity demand improvements for our high-volume markets over the near term. For the September quarter, we expect revenue of approximately $180 million, plus or minus $10 million, with gross margins of 47%. Non-gap operating expenses are anticipated to be $69 million, plus or minus 2%. Collectively, for the September quarter, we expect GAAP EPS of 22 cents per share and non-GAAP EPS of 35 cents per share. Looking ahead, we remain very focused on our close customer engagement and look forward to providing additional details to the technology transitions we are involved in that are supporting new technology and adoption milestones, which will help build a foundation in memory, dispense, and thermal compression growth prospects over the coming years. This concludes our prepared comments. Operator, please open the call for questions.

Thank you. We will now be conducting a question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate your line is in the question queue. You may press star 2 if you would like to remove your question from the queue. For participants using speaker equipment, it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star keys. One moment, please, while we poll for questions. Thank you. Our first question comes from the line of Craig Ellis with B. Riley Securities. Please proceed with your question.

Yeah, thanks for taking the question. And, Fusun, thank you for all the help with the new product information. I wanted to inquire on a near-term item first and look a little bit beyond the September quarter. So, as you look at the gives and takes for the fiscal first quarter, With the broad-based or coordinated, I guess, coordinated recovery you talked about, Pusan, how do you think about the impact of what you're seeing with some improving end markets or portions of end markets versus just still relatively low utilization levels in most of industry? Thank you.

So, Craig, you are asking about Q4?

Calendar, of course, yeah. Okay.

Okay, so last quarter, I think we expect a gradual recovery with a slight improvement into September. You know, although we saw the inhalation rate went up, but still not high enough to trigger, you know, broader recovery. So at this moment, actually, I think we are seeing, you know, Q4 actually is a flat, you know, compared to Q3.

that's helpful and then as you look out further fusion and this is more of a question about what your customers are telling you and how they're telling you to get the business ready for uh what should be some seasonal acceleration in the business can you just talk about how you envision the slope of recovery playing out it seems like we've got very uneven demand dynamics across in markets indeed some are recovering some seem to be still trying to find the bottom like industrial. What does that mean for how the business might perform as we think about calendar 1Q through 3Q next year?

Okay.

So, Craig, you see, in the past about six quarters, our revenue relatively is quite flat. But at each moment, you know, it's our feeling this is the first time improving in coordination. For example, I think early 2023, the border actually picking up a lot. In the meantime, the border, which was impacted by industrial and also auto. So that's why I think we actually almost have a consecutively six months of quite flat But what we are seeing, you know, from our feedback, we're seeing, you know, auto really coming back. The Q3, Q4, we also get quite good order from our big, you know, EV company for the wedge risers. And memory is also picking up. So if you are asking about 25, I think many people have an optimistic view about 25. With the governor, he gave 75%. This will actually trigger broader recovery and in many a market. So you ask about sustainability, this is our view. We probably can see growth into the Q1, because of our iteration rate, it's inching up close to 80%. But also, I think it's not impossible if we shift that to slightly, very, very minor system over Q1 and Q2, which has stronger recovery in Q3, Q4, and Q5. Hope I answered your questions.

That's really helpful, Kyushin. Thanks for taking the questions.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Chris Sankar from TD Cowan. Please proceed with your question.

Yeah, hi, thanks for taking my question. I have a few of them. First of all, just for clarification, when you said December quarter flat versus September, was it for revenues or utilization rate?

Oh, actually flat, because we also guide, we also guide, you know, 180 for Q4, right? And actually Q3, we just finished with 181. So I mean for that, it's very new. But utilization, we are actually seeing continue to inching up some area already over 80% for two quarter. And average right now, I think it's 75. We do expect in Q4, we'll go to higher 70, but still not touch 80% yet. So that's why I answered, if you ask seasonality, it's hard to get, you know, because of recovery expected by Gartner, we will have a chance, maybe go up in Q1. But it's also not impossible, we see Flack also, or actually very, very minor, you know, seasonality, supported by a second half-based recovery.

Got it, got it. And then just on that point, Poozan, you know, historically, you know, OSAT had an appetite to add capacity when utilization rate is about 90% given the lead times are not that long. So is that a fair assumption? In that case, maybe the recovery is truly later sometime next year till we get to 90%? Or do you think that's an appetite to add capacity even below 90?

Well, I think it's an 80%, you know, trigger additional additional buy. Actually, we did see, you know, OZ start to contributing. We actually start from Q3 and Q4, also from China. We also have memory OZ also start to have a buy. So we feel OZ is really in that capacity now.

Got it, got it. And then two quick questions on advanced packaging. One is, can you talk a little bit about the status of the TCD Coal at the Taiwan Foundry? What is going on there?

Okay. So, Chris, I think we actually have an engagement and a qualification. Actually, there are multiple projects, you know, over there. And this place is, we believe, is going to be a growth for us in the future. The qualification is for Rockless. And this is for the high-end, you know, the products. And it's a product list. And for the product list, we are the only one in the mass production, you know, for the industry. And the qualification actually takes a long time. The previous IBM company, we took close to two years to finish it. But so far, in our opinion, we believe all the results come out positive. And we have an early production for the first customer. It's intended for first half of 2025. We feel positive and we have an initial discussion. you know, about the capacity, you know, and also delivery schedule at the early stage. So we expect to reach a new milestone, and we will be able to update everyone maybe in our December code or November code.

Got it. And then final question. I think in the last time, you mentioned FY25 advanced packaging dedicated AP revenue could be $200 million. Are you still sticking with that number or do you think it may be lower than that?

Chris, could you repeat?

I think last quarter you said in fiscal 25, advanced packaging revenues could be 200 million with a dedicated AP. Is that still the case?

Yeah, so this is our forecast. Our GCB alone in 25, last quarter we forecast about 100 million. But for the dedicated, for the dedicated, you know, the advanced packaging, this is including PCB, also including a vertical wire, and also including a system in packaging. So all these are adding together, we're close to $200 million. And, you know, since we're adding more engagement in our site, we are doing a long-term forecast at this moment. We probably will be able to share with you in the next couple of quarters.

Thank you very much, Susan. Thanks.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Tom Dilfle with DA Davidson. Please proceed with your question.

Yeah, good afternoon. I appreciate the question. When I look at the guidance for flat next quarter at $180 million, is there any kind of a shift between end markets or products, or is it going to be fairly similar to what you had this quarter?

is quite similar compared to Q3.

Okay. And then, Fusim, when you looked at the slides you produced and you gave a five-year average for the different segments, when you look over the next five years, do you think that those are pretty good numbers, or do you think some of those markets were overstated with the big upturn or understated because of growth drivers?

Tom, are you talking about which number

Yeah, on your slide you had a five-year average for the different segments. And I was wondering if those five-year averages are good, you know, on a go-forward basis or if you think they're over or understated for the next five years.

So yeah, so Tom's Lester. So we believe that those numbers are good going forward on a five-year basis as a projection going forward. There might even be a little bit of an upside going forward.

Okay, great. And then finally, Lester, when you look at the Project W that was cancelled last quarter, what was the cost associated with that and have those expenses or costs been reallocated

So I think for Project W, there's minimal cost associated with in Q3 and in Q4 going forward. And we have reallocated those resources. I think in my remarks, I mentioned that we kept OPEX down because we reallocated those resources in an efficient manner to projects that was more in demand for the quarter and going forward.

Great. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Dave Dilley with Steelhead Securities. Please proceed with your question.

Thanks for taking my questions. A couple, let's start on advanced packaging. I was wondering if you could just help us understand the applications that you have thus far kind of captured in order to produce this 10x growth in your thermal compression bonding. And just digging into that puzzle just a little bit further, You know, I think we all recollect your first customer here was a big IDM CPU provider. If you could kind of just help us understand at that big customer, what are you doing, chip on wafer or chip on substrate? And, you know, how does that help you win business at the big foundry?

So, Dave, I think we start to get more significant revenue in 2021. So it's about... you know, less than $10 million. So within four years, I think, you know, first, I think we start with OSAT. You know, after OSAT, we are working with an IBM company, and we develop actually a chip-to-substrate. And in the meantime, I think, you know, when we work with OSAT, we also working with, you know, the customers who focus on silicon photonics and also like 3D sensing, you know. So right now, I think we have, you know, you know, special market, silicon photonics, silicon sensing, and also have actually more important is a heterogeneous integration. So I think last year, we was 23, was 76 to $80 million. So we actually start to focus We believe in the future there are a few bigger areas for us. One is the offset. We actually feel very comfortable. We continue to get more revenue and more application over there. And number two is the chips to substrate. I think we are doing very well. What we are focusing right now actually is going to be chips to weather. We believe this is a huge market as well as a foundry, right? So with these two areas, I think we probably – or fuel our growth for the next couple of years.

And does the outsourcing of part of the co-op process to the OSATs, and I think that's the OS part, the chip on substrate, is that a beneficial trend for you guys, given that you already have relationships with these OSATs and they're using your equipment, or do you have to go in and kind of prove yourself completely new there?

Yeah, it's a penetration to us.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

It's beneficial to us.

Okay. Okay. Final question from me is just on the core business. You know, a couple years ago it was obviously running at much, much higher levels. And I'm just kind of curious, is there any reason that you can see that that core business wouldn't achieve peak levels of revenue again like it was a few years ago, given the appropriate circumstances in the end markets?

Well, so, David, you are asking about the whole business, right?

So, actually, the year 2022-2021, I think we actually went up from like 500-something, you know, to about 1.5. This is 2.6 growth, 2.6x, right? That's very, very significant. So that's why I think 21, 22, 1.5, I think a lot of customers, they overbuy a lot of core business. Therefore, I think we are down to this level. But if you look at it, if the Gartner prediction is correct, the 17% unit growth, just assume, you know, half of that is... say AI-related or whatever, even like 8%, right, will trigger a lot of capacity for our core business. I give you an image of a normal, bold-minded business. Like even before COVID, it's about $500 to $600 million. So we, you know, are triggered capacity by, I think you can calculate, you know, you know, we are still, this year is still less than $400 million for Boba Wanda. So we believe we have a huge, we have a huge, you know, opportunity in co-business. Also, you know, our new technology is a value for the future, you know, both of them, including VFO, and also, you know, which one of the HPI. So we do believe semi-contractor downturn, normally no more than six quarter. We already have eight quarter, right, including this quarter, maybe nine quarter. So longer the downturn, actually, we believe upturn, It is somewhere to be stronger and a strong, you know, stuff from there.

Yeah. The longer you stay under the curve, the bigger you'll be over the part on the part of the curve when the things get better. Right. You know, everything kind of evens out that way. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Ross Cole with Needham and company. Please proceed with your question.

Hi, thank you for taking my question. I noticed that you mentioned you expect the December quarter to be flat compared to the September quarter. And you're expecting gross margin to remain roughly the same area for the two quarters as well? Thank you.

So actually, I think maybe that was a high, so it's lesser. I don't think we guided to the December quarter. I think what Putin said was actually the September quarter, which we just guided to, is flat to the third quarter. He did mention for the December quarter, which is our first fiscal quarter for 2025, there is some uptake, but there may also be some seasonality in there. So I think right now it's bit per se. As far as gross margin is concerned, yeah, I think we believe that gross margin will probably stay around the 47% level through the rest of the calendar year, but then we'll pick up in the calendar year 25 as some of our cost reduction issues kicked in, as well as some of our newer products, which are starting to get traction, but will have a lot more traction in 25, and those are much higher margin products. So we still are aiming towards a 50% gross margin on a corporate-wide basis.

Great. Thank you for the clarification and the answer.

Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from the mind of Christian Schwab with Craig Howland Capital Group. Please proceed with your question.

Great. Just, Fusen, you know, other than Gartner, you know, enthusiasm for, you know, revenue growth or semiconductor unit growth, Is any of your dialogue with any of your customers suggesting that the first half of Caliber 25 that they plan on giving you a bunch of orders?

I think everybody we talk optimistic on 25 because downtown has been very long. Actually, you know, the short term, you know, we have been in this chart for six to eight quarters already, like if you look at it. And historically, we don't see this. That means our market is stabilized, and in the future, we have a new product to offer. But the short term, I think, is really hard to judge. You know, in the meantime, the utilization rate is inching to 80%, right? You know, 75, we do believe finish Q4 would be a high 78. And, you know, that's why it didn't trigger capacity buy. Maybe customers still have a little bit of budget concern, you know, and the macro, all this. So if you're asking me about Q1 and Q2, it can go up, but it can also be flat. Also, if it's a seasonality, we don't expect a major one. But actually, we are quite bullish. So as many customers, we talk 25. You know, we agree here.

And then just in further clarity, what type of applications or ad markets are people most excited about a recovery in 25, you know, automotive, industrial, et cetera?

Okay, I can tell you, of course, we look at, you know, our advanced packaging, and we also look at, you know, the wage boundary is a lot of auto, industrial, and mainly it's a full boundary, right? So... Actually, you know, the customer is in general semi and is also auto and also in AI. So I think the application is quite broad. And, you know, I mentioned the average normal year of a Bobang should be 500 to 600, even before COVID. And we have been in a prolonged downtime. And we do believe a little bit of broader recovery. I think we probably will be the first one to see the recovery.

Okay, great. No other questions. Thank you.

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the floor back over to Joe for closing comments.

Thank you, Alicia, and thank you all for joining today's call. Over the coming quarter, we'll be presenting at several conferences and roadshows. As always, please feel free to follow up directly with any additional questions. This concludes today's call. Have a great day, everyone.