Lumo Kodit Oyj

Good morning. Welcome to Koyamo's half-year results news conference. I'm Niina Saakto, Treasury and Investment Relations Director. CEO Jani Nieminen and CFO Erik Hjelt are here today to present the first six months figures. They will also give outlook for the whole year. We have Q&A after the presentation, so you can send questions via chat. Also, if you like to ask in person, you can see a hand sign on your screen. By clicking that, you will be placed in queue. And when it's your turn to speak, please remember to unmute the microphone first. But now we can start the presentation and hear what Jani Nieminen has to say. Welcome, Jani.

Thank you, Niina. Good morning, everybody. It's time to provide again the color what's been going on here in Kahelmo, and actually today we provide color as well as what's going to happen in the future concerning the measures. Topics today, as typically as usual, summary of H1 this year and then a bit deeper color concerning the financial development specified outlook for this year. And then we will also provide information concerning our saving program for 2024. There is good to keep in mind that at the moment our operations are solid, our numbers are strong, but we want to keep the credit rating as investment rating in the future, and we will take proactive measures in order to maintain and secure our financial position. As said, a good starting point is that our operations have remained stable during H1, Although of course the financial and interest rate level market combined with inflation cost pressure towards for example maintenance cost has been a challenging time throughout the market for all real estate operators. In that we've been quite successful. We've been able to grow total revenue net rental income and FFO. Our occupancy compared to comparison year is on a better level. We've been able to improve occupancy since spring and we still have active ongoing measures in order to improve the occupancy. I'm quite confident we are on the right path there. and we made some financing arrangements during H1 totaling 500 million euros successfully and there was of course a positive impact due to tender offer process impacting positively our FFO moving to page five a bit of color concerning the operational environment The outlook for the world economy is still uncertain and weak. Core inflation has remained high, although we see that inflation has slowed down basically due to energy prices. Here in Finland, employment is still at a good level, but rising prices and interest rates reduce household spending and consumer confidence biggest impact in my eyes at the moment is, for example, in housing trade volumes. Homebuyers are really careful. The markets do not expect interest rate cuts to start in the near future. And that's something we have to consider. We are a strong company. We will remain as a strong company in the future. On the right hand side on the table, Typical estimates concerning different figures. As usually, I do have a different opinion versus the official estimates concerning the number of new resi startups here in Finland. The official estimate has come down. It was at the beginning of the year 36,000. Then in Q2 it was 27 400 and now it's roughly 20 000. I would be surprised to see a number 15 000 to be started this year. Most probably it will be below that. The number of single family homes to be started will be bigger than apartment building homes number. That will impact throughout the market. We already know that of course this year still apartments are completed to the market providing supply because of the project started 2021-2022 but as the number of new startups has been going down since last year starting next year we will see a very limited number of new supply coming to the market and that will have a positive impact towards the rental market As said, unemployment rates here in Finland are still good. In that sense, the situation here in Finland is good. Official estimates concerning the home prices or the rent adjustments, in my eyes, they've been too modest. Home prices are not going down between 1.2 five and three. Actually, in my eyes, already happening here in capital region, roughly nine percent, according to the data. In my eyes, it's a bit of probably a coincidence, but we did adjust our values by nine percent at the end of last year without the transaction data from the market. And now it seems that the market has been roughly to nine percent down. On page six, basic information. Still good to keep in mind that the megatrends are valid, creating long-term demand for rental apartments, basically for homes here in Finland. Urbanization is continuing. All the big cities here in Finland are growing, especially capital region. We do have an increasing number of small households, one- and two-person households. Typically, those households are looking after a rental apartment, not an owner-occupied apartment. At the same time, we see that homebuyers are more careful, choosing instead to rent the apartment, not to buy. Amount of households living in rental apartments increasing in all the big cities. This data is always a bit lacking behind, but throughout the last decade, we have seen an increasing number in all the big cities every year when it's launched. For example, in Helsinki, Turku and Tampere, actually more households live in rental apartments than in own occupied homes. At the same time, as I said, home buyers are very careful. Housing trade volumes are muted because of the economic uncertainty, rising interest rates and increasing property taxes. And this supports rental apartment markets, which is improving towards next year significantly. On page seven, still a couple of words concerning the operational environment. Residential construction volume has decreased already a year. And during the first half of this year, actually declining new startup has been accelerating sharply. We will have the lowest number of new resi startups throughout the last decade this year. I said I don't believe to see 20,000 apartments to be started. That will mean that the supply balance, supply demand balance will rapidly change next year, improving the rental market. Throughout the market, I would say there is pressure to increase the rents due to the interest rates increasing, property charges increasing, and now the supply situation will change and that will go throughout the market. And then I don't see at the moment any indication that would mean that the construction volumes would pick up speed this year or early next year. There's no such data available. So it will take a while before construction volumes will pick up speed again throughout the market. A couple of notes concerning the key figures on page 8. As said, I'm happy to say all the numbers are solid. Performance has been good. We've been able to improve total revenue, net rental income, funds from reoperations. Total revenue growth was 8.6%. That's of course a combination of completed apartments on the latter part of last year. during the first six months of this year, like for like growth, which is now positive. And then the acquisition made a year ago during the summer, close to 1,000 units that was impacting on half year level last year, around 4 million euros. And now this year, 4.4 million euros during the first six months. So that's the combination there. The net rental income improvement 7%. So we've been, actually coping really good against the inflation. The hardest part was Q1 with the energy prices. We still see that the maintenance expenses have been growing 7.7 million during the first six months of the year. A couple of notes there, the biggest issues there are heating, of course, 2.4 million euros and property taxes 1.7 million euros. There is Of course good to keep in mind that we've been completing new apartments so the volumes are bigger. FFO up 12.8% is a combination of the positive improvement in net rental income and the positive impact from repurchasing those maturing bonds 2024-2025. Fair value of investment properties at the end of H1, 8.3 billion euros. No changes in valuation parameters. There's no data from the market to create pressure, make changes. Of course we are following what's going on in the market. So basically the fair value grew by 118 million euros. It's a combination of completing ongoing new development projects and then ending restrictions that had a positive impact of roughly 20 million euros. Cross investments during the first six months is 116 million euros, basically ongoing projects to be completed. We have not been starting any new development projects. So the part in Gross investments concerning new development projects is 97.5 million euros and the rest 18.7 million euros is modernization investments. Profit excluding the changes in fair value improvement there 9.7% combination of very good net rental income improvement and then of course positive impact from financial expenses and then at the end profit before taxes including changes in fair value 95.7 million euros there is good to keep in mind that now during the first six months of the year the positive impact from changes in fair value was 5.1 million euros and the corresponding period it was 75.1 million euros so basically a difference comes from that part concerning ongoing development projects we already provided information last autumn that we are not starting any new development projects. We are focusing on completing the ongoing development projects. For the time being, that's going to be the situation. We are not starting any new development projects. All the ongoing projects are proceeding as planned. In those development projects, our valuation development gains are still about 15%, so 1.5%. In that sense, we are happy those properties will be developed in high quality micro locations, will meet the demand nicely. Customers are still looking for same kind of apartments than prior to COVID-19. So those are proceeding as planned and will be completed. At the end of Q2, we had 1,100 and 52 apartments under construction. During the latter part of this year, we are completing 758 apartments. So it leaves roughly 400 apartments to be completed next year. A couple of examples of latest completions. One property in Espoo. basically close to the sports center in Espoo Tapiola, one in city center Helsinki, one of the most central locations in Helsinki, Eerikinkatu 7, behind Forum. That's a conversion project where we converted office space into really high quality rental apartments. And then one property was completed in Tampere, a number of apartments in Espoo 80, Erikin Katu 40 apartments and 49 apartments was completed in Tampere. And basically in all those completed cases, the occupancy levels are high. Erikin Katu was totally sold out when we started marketing. Tampere is sold out and Espoja open bookstore will be sold out in September. Couple of words concerning the housing stock and our customer base. In the big picture, it's very nicely balanced. If we first stop and think about the portfolio, 73% of our housing portfolio is either studios or one bedroom apartments. On the other hand, the customer base, one and two person households, put together is 76.8%. Then, if we look at customers divided between different age groups, good to know that it's well diversified, well balanced, and actually 75% of customers are between the ages of 26 and 65, basically working people. A couple of words concerning sustainability on page 12. As always said, sustainability has always been a part of our company DNA. We've been quite successful in our own measures. We have committed to the United Nations Sustainable Development goals. Our target is that our property portfolio will be carbon neutral, carbon free by 2030 in terms of energy consumption. And we are progressing well with our ESG targets. We are moving forward even in some areas a bit faster than planned. carbon dioxide emissions per apartment reduction estimate for this year is 12.5%, so it's been actually accelerating. We are in that 2030 target a bit ahead of the target, a bit ahead of the schedule, so progressing there well. Net promoter score this year is Good. Last year we had struggled there, but now it's still 52. And as we've been providing digital services to our customers, it's good to know that MyLuma digitalized service, so basically a mobile application, the utilization rate is 84. So our customers really use the service. At this point, Erick as a CFO will provide a bit more detailed color concerning the financials.

Thank you, Jani, and good morning, everybody from my side as well. So on page 14, if we first start a couple notes regarding our total revenue, so the total revenue growth H1 this year compared to H1 last year was 17.1 million euros and the like for like top line growth was 1.4% and on the positive side we have here increases in rents and water charges 2% and on negative side occupancy 0.6%. Occupancy as such is improving but in this like for like calculation still a negative figure. Biggest contributor for top-line growth was 2022 and 2023. Completed apartments, roughly 9 million euros. Acquisition, especially June last year, 4.4 million euros. And then rent increases and improving occupancy contributed 3 million euros for the first half of this year's growth. On the right-hand side, we have net rental income. there the growth was 9 million euros and maintenance cost increased by 7.7 million euros. Of course the underlying portfolio assets are bigger, the underlying portfolio is bigger than in the corresponding period, but the biggest items that grow in the maintenance experience part was heating 2.4 million euros, property taxes 1.7 million euros, credit losses 1.3 million euros, and then cleaning and waste management put together 1 million euros. The growth in maintenance cost during Q2 was only 2 million euros. So actually the main increases came through during Q1, especially when it comes to the heating. If you first look profit before taxes and the changes in investment properties, H1, the gain was 5.1 million euros and during Q2 it was positive 14 million euros. There were no relevant transactions in the market and that's why we kept all key parameters, valuation key parameters unchanged. It's good to keep in mind that already at the end of last year, actually, we increased the yield requirement by 34 basis points. So that had a roughly 9% impact for the values of the investment property, as Jani mentioned. The main contributor for the positive fair value change during Q2 was some properties came out of restriction and uplifting values there and then completed apartments related development gain. Then if you look at the profit before taxes excluding the change in fair values, that was increased by 8 million euros. And of course, the net rental income contributed there, but the SGA expenses came up by 2 million euros and financial expenses actually decreased by 0.9 million euros. On the right-hand side, we have FFO, a couple of notes there. There are some items that are different from the profit before taxes, obviously. So first of all, financial expenses declined 2.6 million euros. And there we have an impact of this completed tender offer. Some of our financial expenses line, we booked approximately 9 million euros gain and of course that has a tax impact so the net impact of that tender was 7.2 million euros. If we just look at interest expenses, so that grew 7.1 million euros, given the fact that there was bigger loan portfolio, underlying portfolio, and we have quite a high hedging ratio, but it's not 100. So that's why some part of the portfolio has a, loan portfolio has an impact from higher interest rates. Financial occupancy improved. as Jani already mentioned and tenant turnover declined 1.3 percentage points so good trend in both angles here I think like for like rental income we already discussed so investments 116 point 3 million euros mainly ongoing developments. So we haven't been starting any new development process, but these are ongoing processes and those of course will be completed. Monetary investments and repairs put together 25.9 million euros. Then if we look at what we estimate to happen in 2024 regarding this saving program, we are not making any new modernization investments, so of course we will finalize the ongoing modernization investments and those will be completed mostly by the end of this year. So 2024 there's a tail we estimate that that is going to be between one and two million euros so quite moderate level given the saving program. Value of investment properties, change in fair value is already discussed. A couple notes there though on top of that. So one is that we have still a little less than 1,000 apartments where there are restrictions regarding valuation and those restrictions will end by the end of next year and giving in total an uplifting value between 85 and 95 million euros. Most of that will come through 2024. And these ongoing developments, we have already invested 236.4 million euros and 56.5 million euros to be invested in order to finalize these ongoing developments. Most of that this year, less than 20 million next year. And this ongoing process that not will be completed this year, will be completed quite early next year. And as Jani mentioned, roughly 51% development gain. So if you do the math, so that gives approximately 50 million euros development gain in this ongoing development once finalized. Equity ratio and loan-to-value, we actually have very strong figures here. We have set the target to have equity ratio above 40 and loan-to-value below 50, and we have quite sizable buffer against these levels. Couple notes regarding the financing. So we still have unused committed credit lines in place, 300 million euros, and we have 200 million euros unused syndicated loan we made before the summer. and then we are going to draw that to pay back the 200 million euros bond maturing in October this year. So that actually means that we don't have any specific maturing lows before the remaining part of the Euro bond maturing in June 2024. Our financial key figures actually quite strong, hedging ratio 86, average interest rate going up for obvious reasons. So hedging ratio is not 100 and when we do new financing or refinancing actually, so there the cost of new debt is much higher compared to the ones we are paying back. So that's why it's going up. I mean, the average interest rate, but with the moderate phase, given the balanced maturity profile, what we have in our portfolio. Coverage ratio 4.1 and average maturity as well as average interest, fixed interest rate period, little more than three years. NRV down by 12.5%, landed at 19.5% and the biggest reason behind that change is of course the revaluation we made at the end of last year. Still quite strong figure here. KPI's very strong outcome there, so top line growth 8.6%, annual investment 116.3, FFO against total revenue a little more than 37 percent. It's good to keep in mind that whole year's property taxes are already booked during Q1 and the second half portion of that is 6.7 million euros loan-to-value equity ratio already discussed, quite sizable buffer there. And then net promoter score 52, very very strong figure and a nice improvement there as well. Then our outlook for this year specified Not that huge changes there, but some specification anyway. So now we estimate that the top line growth is going to be between 7 and 9%. And as we are proceeding, and as I already explained, the drivers behind the top line growth, so properties or developments completed acquisition last year. properties to be completed this year, they all contribute already the top line and then the improving occupancy and the increase in rents is going to contribute this as well. If we then talk about FFO, now we estimate that FFO this year is going to be between 158 and 167 million euros, so slight increases there. And it's good to know that now we have changed the wording as well. So in this specified FFO guidance is now included the outcome of this tender offer, so a net impact 7.2 million euros and then we have penciled in the possible refinancing, premature refinancing on this 2024 Maturin Eurobond and there we have penciled in a figure of roughly 6 million euros and these are now included in this specified FFO outlook and we have changed the wording accordingly. And now back to Jani.

Thank you, Erik. On page 26, the saving program, I would say the most important starting point is to start where we are. Koyamo is a company hopefully known to be really systematic, proceeding with a strategy as planned. We've been growing. Today is not the right moment to grow. Our figures are solid. total revenue growth, net rental income growth, FFO growth, the financial position, all good and solid, and we will keep it in that level. For us, it's important to be proactive, take all measures in order to keep our financial position strong, our profitability at a good level, And we want to keep investment rate rating. So we are not forced to make decisions at the moment. We are proactive and we will take measures in order to keep us in good faith and keep the company in such a position. And once things are better, we are able to move fast and react on opportunities. But we are launching a saving program. and taking proactive measures in order to keep the financial position strong. It's a combination of different aspects. Totalling, if we think about investments and costs, next year 43 million euros. And of that, the share of costs is estimated to be 18 million. A saving program is a combination of different things. At the moment, we will not invest in new development projects as we launched the idea already last year. So no changes there. In addition to that, this new saving program is a combination of different aspects. We are not making any new modernization investments at the moment. So we are basically breathing a while, a bit postponing them. We are focusing our operations to run the existing portfolio as efficient as possible. It means that we are focusing the repairs to back up the renting and the occupancy in a more efficient manner, saving a bit of repair cost there. We are not in a position that we are creating more repair depth. It's a temporary situation. We are able to cope with that. We will sell properties in moderate scale during next year. We start change negotiations with our personnel. We will find a way how to be efficient organization, save money and focus on running the existing business as efficient as possible for time being. In addition to that, the board has made a decision that board of directors will propose to the spring 24 annual meeting that no dividend will be paid for 2023. So actually the saving program includes all the important actions needed to keep the position strong. In my eyes, the path is clear. We are able to do all measures planned and company will do good. Before we go to the Q&A, a couple of words to summarize. As said, now we are in a situation where actually operations are solid, operations continue stable, even though the overall business environment has been challenging for all real estate operators, we've been coping that well. Still, we are proactively starting a saving program. We are able to improve the occupancy, it's been improving, measures are ongoing in order to improve the occupancy and as we look forward the rental market situation is expected to improve next year as supply in the market is going down two reasons people are more actively renting homes now and new supply is not coming to the market 2024 2025. it creates pressure throughout the market to increase the rents as well more than we have seen during the last years. Of course, we've been still successful in making new financial arrangements. And those had a positive impact, for example, in FFO. At this point, I would leave it to Nina and we start Q&A.

Thank you, Jani. And thank you, Erik, for the presentation. I noticed that the first question is coming from the room here. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Jani, Erik and Nina for the presentation. First one regarding your debt situation and And would I ask about the bank's debt capacity when it comes to you and also focus on the unencumbered assets ratio which has declined to 80% now and at the same time you said that you want to defend your investment grade rating and also want to increase the secured financing part so regarding for example Moody's how they look at the unencumbered ratio could you elaborate a bit around how you will balance this?

So thanks for the questions and if we start with portion of secured financing. So one way to look at this is that in Moody's matrix, if you are allowed to be an investment-graduated company, you are allowed to have 20% of secured loans against total assets. And today our figures is between 10 and 11. So we have quite sizable headroom there to do further secured financing. And that's of course important. And that's a very good position to be in, in a Koyamos case, to have that capacity available without jeopardizing the rating. And then the appetite of these banks on board today, it seems to be there. Some banks have more appetite than the others, but the appetite is there and there are additional banks available as well who are looking and who are financing companies, good companies like Koyama in Finland.

Have you been much in discussions with banks outside of the Nordics?

We have discussions with those banks as well.

Thank you. Then regarding the rent increases, which now are at a 2% run rate, there's much discussion in Finland about Heka, for example, the Helsinki-owned company, which will increase their rents by 10 to 15%. But their rents are on average 50% higher than yours. What kind of trajectory should we expect for rent increases in 2024 for Europe?

And thank you for the question. Yeah, we noticed that and most probably because of media providing a lot of information, everybody has been noticing that HECA is increasing the rents between 10 to 15%. That's social housing. They apply cost price principle. But in my eyes, that's a good example of the cost pressure provided by inflation to real estate operators. they have to transfer the cost increases towards rents at the end of the day of course those social housing rents are on a low level here in Helsinki region but I would say in such a way that taking in consideration the pressure created by operational charges maintenance impacts of inflation interest rate levels, financing situation throughout all the players in the markets, individual zoning, rental apartments, that creates a lot of pressure to increase rents. On the other hand, we already know that supply will go significantly down. I would be quite surprised if we don't see a high rental increase next year what's the number that's always a tricky part with not providing outlook at this point not probably the levels but maybe half of that in the market

And will you be ready to sacrifice occupancy rate on the behalf of rent increase?

That's always a balancing question. At the moment we are focusing on the occupancy. We will improve the occupancy. Next year we are in the situation where the occupancy is on a better level. We know that new supply is not coming to the market. So supply demand balance situation will change. we will price our apartments according to the market. At some point, there is a turning point where it's creating an opportunity to earn more money. In that sense, you increase the rents, take in some cancellations because you know that the demand is on the market and you reprice the product and sell it again. But that's not the situation today. It's the situation 2024. Thank you.

And regarding the transaction market, obviously not much activity there. The Kruunu Asunot transaction is a bit old news, but was it so that that didn't have any impact on your valuation metrics?

Basically, Kruunu Asunot is the only portfolio deal in the market. and it's good to keep in mind the background of that portfolio. They are old garrison sites. 25% of the portfolio is really non-core regions where, for example, Koyama does not operate. I would say a very tricky one to guess what would be the yield requirement in those certain micro locations. Double or triple digit So it's not comparable to our portfolio. And in that sense, there was no pressure to make any changes in our valuation.

Thank you. And then regarding your cost savings program, you talk about 18 million in costs. I mean, how much is modernization and how long will you be keeping that on hold?

So in total in this program, we are aiming to get 43 million euros savings cost side and investments put together. And we estimate that 18 million of that is going to be a cost side. So modernization investments is not included in that figure. It's included in the whole figure. And I said, We estimate that Modernization Investments 2024 is going to be a tail on ongoing Modernization Invest projects and euro-wise between one and two million euros.

And looking at sustainable cost savings that you can take out from here to eternity, what kind of level are we talking about there?

I think it's not the right timing to talk about eternity. We are talking about what's going to happen in the near future. What are our measures for 2024? We are following the market, what's going to happen in the market. We are capable to continue with that kind of measures if needed. We are capable to react fast if and when the market is improving. It's a good exercise to find the most efficient measures and ways to operate. But on the other hand, of course, we are in a different atmosphere looking forward. The rental increases will be on a higher level and interest levels will have to follow what's going to happen. But I think it's a new near-term project at the moment as we are focusing.

Okay, thank you. That's all from me.

Next, we can see if we have any questions from the phone line. Please check that your microphone is unmuted before you speak.

The next question comes from John Vuong representing Kempen. Please go ahead and unmute your microphone.

Hi, good morning team. Thank you for taking my questions as follow up on the cost savings plan. It's a rather drastic measure. Could you highlight your thoughts behind coming to this conclusion? Maybe more specifically, does this relate to your decision to stop developments and perhaps what is the ideal portfolio size to be managed with the current workforce? And how do you see this after the program?

Thank you John for the question and good morning as well. As I said, at the moment, the company is strong in a good financial position. All the numbers are solid and we like to keep it that way. So we are acting proactively, making measures in order to ensure our capabilities to be a strong company. It's not the right time today to generate additional growth. That's why we are not investing in new development. We are cutting down modernization investments for a while, focusing on creating efficiencies. The strategy has been to grow, create new services, develop the way we work and That's been reflected in our organization as well. And that's the reasoning why we start change negotiation with the personnel. We are focusing temporarily to run the existing portfolio in the most efficient manner. And that will have an impact towards the personnel. We have released the information that at maximum 70 layoffs and 20 terminations of employment. Those two put together a maximum of 80 people, but we just started the negotiations. That will take six weeks, so it is too early to provide any deeper color or deeper color in the numbers at this point.

Okay, thank you. And perhaps on the modernization part, what is expected to be the impact on life-like rental growth by stopping modernization? Or maybe perhaps differently asked, what is your expected yield and cost on modernization?

I would say that I'm not seeing the impact on life-like growth that is concerning the properties owned for the last two years. the last 12 months against the prior 12 months, we will see a positive impact from occupancy. We are always able to postpone a modernization investment for a year or a couple of years. That will not hurt. Modernization investment project is an investment. So we typically end up in a situation where we have to terminate all the existing tenant agreements. Then we make an extensive renovation project and that's handled as an investment. We rent it again for new customers on a new rent level. So in that sense, as we are not starting new organization investments next year, we are not terminating those tenant agreements, we are not creating empty buildings. So it will have a positive impact in such a manner.

Okay, that's clear. So just to understand it correctly, it's more focused on assets where you see upside, but not per se assets that are currently already vacant.

Assets which are currently vacant are basically individual apartments. we will focus our repairs in such a manner that on the other hand, we are saving money, but we are making sure that we are able to improve the occupancy.

Okay, that's clear. Thank you. And maybe onto the Latin market, could you provide a bit more color on your expectations here? I mean, looking at your vacancy, it seems to be stable over the quarter. Is this a bit of a seasonality effect and should we expect this to come down for the rest of the year?

Yeah, I provided color during Q1 presentation that there's always seasonality in rental market. Typically the winter time is more quiet and the highest season in rental market is summer and typically occupancies throughout the market seems to go down until the summer and they then pick up speed. I provided already then information that since April, our occupancy has not been going down. We have been making the turning point already in April. Ever since, we've been able to improve that. Concerning the figures after H1, we are not providing exact figures. It's not our way to provide outlooks, but the number of new tenant agreements June, July and I would say even here in August are really strong. June, July a couple of times we've been making a new record in throughout the history in the number of new tenant agreements so we are doing good with our measures in order to improve the occupancy.

Okay, that's great. Thank you. And just the last one, you report both the FFO and the FFO excluding non-recurring costs, which seem to be the same for this quarter. Could you clarify whether this means that the 9 million gains from bond repurchases included in FFO and not considered a one-off, and it's therefore also included in the FFO guidance upgrade?

Well, the outcome of the tender is related to existing or at that time existing Euro bonds and repurchase of those. So it's part of the normal activities of the company when you are paying back or we are raising new money and what is the cost and what is the outcome of that. So that's why it's included in FFO. It's quite natural way to put it there. because it's related to ongoing financing of the company.

The next question comes from Paul Gori representing CTI. Please go ahead and unmute your mic.

hi uh all hope you can hear me okay um yeah perfect thank you um so just following on actually from from john's question and just to check that i understand correctly therefore um so within the ffo guidance now there is this uh i i would call it one off but but appreciate you're including it um you know which is the gain from buying the bonds at a discount so The first question I guess is just to check, is that the methodology you're going to be using from now onwards? So anytime you do a bond tender, your FFO guidance will take into account any gain?

That's the idea because I think one should book same type of items in the same type of way. If we are making a new tender, we will include the outcome of the tender. Uh, uh, in, in, in FFO.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think, I mean, this is, this is just an, uh, an opinion from me, but I agree with John that it's, uh, it's one-off because you can only sort of do it once and you only see the gain once. Um, but, but, okay. As long as we understand the, uh, the methodology, that's fine. Um, I think the second, uh, point just on that, I think you said the Euro bond, the refinancing of the 2024 Euro bond is now included. Is that correct?

We included the potential refinancing of that June 24 maturing remaining part of that Eurobond in that guidance, correct.

And was the impact 6 million?

We penciled in 6 million euros, of course. It depended when and how and what instrument and so on and so forth, but 6 million euros we penciled in when we calculated the specified guidance.

okay just the six million sounds it sounds like quite a low figure i would have expected it to be more the current coupon on those bonds is is i think is it one and a half or or around the area maybe 1.6 and presumably when they're refinanced it'll be a kind of i don't know three and a half four you know can you just explain that the six million to me why is the figure

So for us it's always been important to access for different sources of financing and especially this type of times or operating environment it's quite good to have that option available and our aim is to do the next refinancing from banks as a secured syndicated loan most likely and there of course the pricing is totally different what you have to pay or what are the indications for bonds it's good to keep in mind that those bond indications today are really indications because we haven't seen any primary or secondary transaction in the real estate companies among real estate companies quite long time so we penciled in that when we calculated the six million euros It's based on that the refinancing will occur by the end of September, whether it's going to happen or not, we don't know. And the amount is the idea is to refinance the whole remaining part of that June 24 maturing Eurobond.

Yeah. Okay. No, no, that's, that's very clear. Thank you for that. And then just one more from me, which is on the dividend cuts and, and Just to clarify, so that's obviously part of protecting the investment grade rating. But again, it seems like quite a drastic step to do it now. I appreciate you want to be proactive, but I think you're two notches above junk. So you obviously have one notch downgrade kind of leeway. I think the LTV trigger is probably 50. So you're not actually that close. I guess my point is you're not actually that close to your kind of

know hitting your triggers for the for the downgrade you've got one step you've probably got you know two years before you'd even get considered to be junk so so why why are you taking this step today yeah as i said in our eyes it's better to take measures when you're in a good position and when you are strong you are not forced to do by somebody else things we are proactive and we wanted to provide a clear story, a comprehensive package, including different measures. And that includes the clear message concerning the dividend as well. And of course that's a way to even further strengthen the company's financial position. So it's a part of the package.

Okay, perfect. That's helpful. Thanks both.

There are no more questions in the queue.

We have some left in the chat. How has building cost developed recently? Do you see lower building costs in the near term?

It is easy to comment in that sense that we have not been starting new development projects since last autumn. So we have not been involved in competitions. Of course, we recognize that the number of started projects is next to nothing. So there's high pressure for construction companies to try to sell projects for investors. they've been indicating that cost increases have been leveling off. I would say that there's a pressure to bring down the prices in a current environment. I would say there's pressure to bring down the cost of construction work by 20 to 30% before investors start to operate again. And that's including, of course, the price of the land and the cost of the project. So that's something that construction companies will have to figure out during the next 12, 18 months.

Okay. Then another topic. You mentioned that you might be selling some properties during the next 12 months. What kind of portfolio are we talking about? Is it core or non-core assets?

No decision has been yet made what kind of portfolio we will sell. We will follow the market closely. We have been doing that already. We are not in a position to be forced to sell. So we're not selling anything today. We will follow where is appetite. We know that there's still appetite in the market towards the finished resin market, but we have to follow and create a deeper understanding that where is the best appetite, what kind of buyers are available there and what kind of pricing is there. But during the next 12 months, we expect to see smaller scale disposals, a couple of hundred million, probably during the next year or two.

Okay, then with regards to the saving program and 18 million operational cost saving, does that have effect to the development organization?

As said, we have not been starting new development since last autumn. That's been already impacting at the beginning of this year in that organization. We are starting to change negotiations throughout the organization. So all Koyama employees are included in those negotiations. Today, it's too early to provide deeper comments on separate divisions or units.

Good. And then I think we've touched pretty much all other topics, but continuing with the dividend decision, did you have a pre-discussion with the credit rating agency before you made the decision?

No, we like to keep matters in our own hands and keep the company strong. And then we will have discuss them with a rating agency in a normal manner when there's time and place for those ones.

Thank you. And thanks. That was the final question. And we will then meet on 2nd of November when Q3 report is out. So I hope you can all join us then as well. Now wishing you all very nice autumn. Thank you.

Bye bye.