This conference call transcript was computer generated and almost certianly contains errors. This transcript is provided for information purposes only.EarningsCall, LLC makes no representation about the accuracy of the aforementioned transcript, and you are cautioned not to place undue reliance on the information provided by the transcript.
spk06: For the past few years, we have made material advancements and strategic decisions to grow bird tanks. For the past two years, we have operated very safely and reliably while investing capital into upgrading the mobile refinery. We built in flexibility in our capital spend to allow us to redeploy our renewable equipment back into conventional production if our strategy required adjustment. Due to the significant macro headwinds for renewables over the past 12 months, many of which we believe will continue to occur over the next 18 months and beyond, we have decided to strategically pause our renewable diesel business and pivot to producing conventional fuels from the hydrocracker unit. We plan to reconfigure the hydrocracker in conjunction with a planned turnaround on the unit. When modeling the unit in conventional service against first quarter 2024 historical data, we estimate the unit could have significantly improved our results providing an additional fuel gross and margin contribution of roughly 40 million on conventional fuels. On the call today, the team and I plan to update you on the financial and operating results for the first quarter of 2024 and go into our plans around the renewable business pause and pivot. I wanna start by thanking my team. All the employees listening on the call today for the good work they have accomplished thus far in 2024. As James will note shortly, our safety track record is commendable and we have more work ahead of us to convert to all conventional feedstock, which we wanna do safely because our people are our most valuable asset. With that, I'll now hand the call over to James. Thank you, Ben. Good morning, everyone. We continue to believe that our people and their safety are of the utmost importance, which is why I like to start talking about our health, safety and environmental performance. We're proud to say that in the first quarter of 2024 was another clean quarter with zero OSHA recordable injuries. In fact, we've now operated for two years at the mobile site without a recordable injury. We did have one minor environmental noncompliance at the mobile site associated with the planned small unit turnaround executed during the first quarter. Additionally, mobile saw zero process safety events, continued streak of outstanding HSE performance at the site. I wanna commend our employees at every location for continually prioritizing the safety first mentality of our entire organization. The effort and care for each other seen across the entire business is a testament to the dedication of both employees and contract partners working within our facility. Our legacy operations overall had a good quarter with Marrero performing better than budget on volume and margin. This is an accomplishment of continuous improvement in operating performance by the Marrero team. Our team at the mobile site demonstrated strong operational performance of the conventional facility during the quarter with average throughput volumes of 64,065 barrels per day or capacity utilization of 85%, which was above the high end of our guidance at 63,000 barrels per day. The higher volumes compared to guidance are primarily due to stronger capacity utilization and getting a crew unit back and cleaning ahead of schedule. Total optics per barrel for the first quarter was also below the low end of our prior guidance at $4.10 per barrel and reflects the increasing cost that we've gained from smooth operations which more than offset inflationary impact of lower throughput volumes and a cost per barrel basis. Our conventional fuels gross margin per barrel during the quarter rose significantly to $12.63 compared to $4.79 in the fourth quarter. Our finished products such as gasoline, diesel and jet fuel accounted for 64% of our total product yield during the first quarter of 2024 in line with our previous guidance. In the first quarter, we had a planned small turnaround of one of the reformers and a pit stop of their number one crew unit in March. Following the successful maintenance event in March, the mobile facility is poised to operate at full rates during the second and third quarters, coincided with an expected rise in demand over the driving season. Now turning to our mulewoods fuels business. Vertex Renewable Diesel Plant operated smoothly generating total renewable fuels gross margin per barrel at $10.29 for the quarter. Our renewables throughput volumes average 4,090 barrels per day for a capacity of utilization of 51% in line with our recently updated guidance. During the second quarter of 2024 in line with our pause and pivot strategy, we are pausing the mulewoods fuels production and redirecting the hodder crocker unit to conventional fuels and products. We had a previously planned catalyst and maintenance turnaround scheduled again later this year for our mulewoods business. We will now use the planned turnaround to load a conventional catalyst and transition the unit back to conventional fuel service. This hodder crocker unit is one of the most valuable physical assets and we have retained the full optionality of this unit through engineering efforts in conjunction with the additional capital investments made. There will be a transition period as we can reconfigure the unit and prepare it to run conventional feedstock. We're targeting startup conventional service prior to the end of the year. Following the unit startup, we expect to utilize it to further refine our existing VGO stream to an upgraded conventional product. We are optimistic that the timing of the unit coming on stream will benefit from seasonal market shifts where typically gasoline prices dip during the winter while diesel sees a premium due to increased leading local demand. We'll continue to watch courage closely as we work through this process. I will now turn the call over to Chief Financial Officer Chris Carlson for a view of the company's financial results and additional detail regarding our financial and operating outlook for the second quarter 2024.
spk08: Thank you, James, and welcome to those joining us on the call today. Our focus continues to be on managing our balance sheet and liquidity. As Ben and James have outlined, our strategic decisions to pause and pivot RG production is aimed at significantly enhancing this effort over the near term by stopping losses associated with renewable diesel production and adding available margin through upgrading VGO to a higher margin conventional product. We anticipate based on near and midterm macro pricing that we will be able to materially generate additional cash flow, allowing us greater financial flexibility and improving our balance sheet. Turning now to our financial results. We are very pleased to see improvement across the board driven by stronger crack spreads. Vertex reported net loss attributable to the company of 17.7 million for the first quarter of 2024. This compares to a net loss of 63.9 million in the fourth quarter of 2023. We saw a $53 million improvement in our total adjusted EBITDA from a loss of 35.1 million in the fourth quarter to 18.6 million for the first quarter of 2024. During the quarter, we incurred a $15 million impact in cash flows, mostly as a result of the capex of 15 million spent during the quarter. We saw a decrease in cash from operating activities offset by an increase in financing activities. Total capital expenditures for the first quarter 2024 were 15 million, 29% below our prior guidance issue on February 28th, reflecting a deliberate preservation of capital achieved via a deferral of certain discretionary capital expenditures. This primarily includes a realignment of planned capital expense for the renewables business. Turning to the balance sheet. As of March 31st, 2024, the company had total cash and equivalents, including restricted cash of 65.7 million and total net debt outstanding of 218.5 million at the end of the first quarter 2024, including lease obligations of 68.1 million. We continuously monitor current market conditions and assess our expected cash generation and liquidity needs using the current forward crack spreads available. Weakening crack spreads indicate a continued need for proactively managing our liquidity position. As I stated, we believe that our strategic redirection for renewables will help our financial position. Given current market conditions, we are pursuing strategic financing opportunities to improve our balance sheet. Looking to the second quarter of 2024, we anticipate total conventional circular volumes at Mobile to be between 68,000 and 72,000 barrels per day. Our expected yield of conventional products is expected to consist of between 64% to 68% high value finished products, such as gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, with the balance in intermediate and other products such as VGO. On the renewable side of the business, we are running our remaining inventory of renewable feedstock, which we believe will improve our working capital and margins for the second quarter. Once the renewable feedstock is diminished, we will use previously planned catalyst and maintenance turnaround scheduled for 2024 to load conventional catalysts and bring the unit out of turnaround into conventional service. The total cost of about 10 million was previously budgeted as part of the planned catalyst and maintenance turnaround and does not represent a material change to our forecasted capital spend. Anticipated optics per barrel, encompassing both conventional and renewable spendlosses on a fully consolidated basis is projected to range between $4.11 and $4.46 for the quarter. We anticipate total capital expenditures for the second quarter to be between 20 million to 25 million, which includes a portion of the 10 million conversion cost. I'd now like to turn the call
spk09: to Chief Commercial Officer Doug Huck. Thanks, Chris. As Ben and James
spk07: shared earlier, we're planning to pause renewables production, optimizing our hydrocracking asset to be utilized enough creating conventional products. Our team has done an incredible job in terms of running and managing the unit in renewable service. I'm exceptionally proud of the work they achieved in building a supply base and securing approvals for lower carbon intensity pathways. The work done on developing these feedstock pathways not only deepens the proven capabilities of the asset in renewable service, but it also pays the way for potential future benefit. Should market conditions support the decision to resume renewables production? Our commercial team has now shifted its focus to supporting this strategic pivot, fulfilling our current renewable commercial obligations, winding down feedstock positions, and supporting our operational team on the ground. We continue to work closely with customers and suppliers, all of whom have been great partners through this process. We're appreciative of their collaboration and support of this effort. The company continues to advance targeted net-back improvement opportunities on conventional and renewable products to bolster profitability, notably completing all pathway approvals for renewable feedstocks and securing a direct offtake of jet fuel produced at the mobile refinery. After tendering and negotiating a new offtake agreement for this jet this spring, we commence supply for a new customer on April 1st. The transition has been well managed by the operational and commercial teams. And this is an important milestone for Vertex, as it is the first of the finished product contracts to roll off our initial offtake agreements inherited upon the purchase of the refinery. We expect our margin uplift on these barrels under our new contract to represent a $10 million improvement over the previous agreement. We have additional agreements approaching expiry over the next year, and we'll be following a similar process with those volumes as we did with the jet volumes, and expect to deliver increased value for the company as compared with the existing contracts. With that, I'll turn it over to Ben for some closing remarks.
spk06: Thank you, Doug. Our team is doing a great job of keeping our operations safe, minimizing risk, and delivering incremental results towards our stated goals. As we navigate the second quarter of 2024, our focus is on managing cash flow during this transitional period. We believe this is the best decision at this time for this asset, as it is not only expected to curtail and stop losses associated with renewable production, it is also expected to provide additional margin opportunities following successful conversion. Given the persisting market volatility and crude pricing, which is impacted by a variety of global factors, we will continue to pursue strategic opportunities and financing pathways that support liquidity needs over the near term. We've done a lot of work proactively restructuring the business to reduce cost and capital, and set up systems to manage and monitor cash flow effectively, and we will continue these efforts on an ongoing basis. We have been adamant that our strategic priorities are to increase our cash position, reduce our operating costs, and improve margins. While we're optimistic about the future of renewables over the long term, we feel this decision to optimize the renewable diesel hydrotreater to conventional services is not only prudent, but a necessary step in accomplishing these goals for the remainder of 2024 and into 2025. Thank you. I'll now turn the call over to the operator for questions.
spk02: We are now opening the floor for question and answer session. If you'd like to ask a question, please press star and number one on your telephone keypad. Our first question comes from Noah Kay from Oppenheimer. Your line is now open.
spk10: Thanks for taking the questions. Maybe just sort of walk us through what's entailed in doing the conversion of the hydrocracker bag. I mean, it was in good shape prior to the RD conversion. Is there anything that we should be particularly aware of around the actual mechanics here? Anything that suggests a kind of risk to kind of getting back to generating what I think you called out would have been materially higher gross profit?
spk06: Yeah. Thank you, Noah. This is James. Thanks for the question. The pivot, we've got to, as Doug described in his opening remarks, we've got to work with our feed suppliers and get all of those out. We've been working that and clear that inventory. And then there are probably two keys. One, of course, is getting the different catalyst in. And that's got to work and we've got to plan on it and then finish the permitting. And then with that, we will go through a full management of change, which we're required to do, and make sure we do the engineering and do construction. We think it's a low risk activity. We have had a small team, but now that we've announced, we'll be able to get more collaboration and convert the unit back. And we think it'll be a better unit than it was before.
spk10: And just, thank you, and just in terms of the timing, any change you can put a finer point on the timeline? And I would expect that this will start to really show up more in 3Q results, but if you could speak to the timetables you're currently planning on.
spk06: Yeah. So our plan is to get the conversion complete in Q3 and show up fully for Q4. That's the current plan, but as I said, there's two pieces I don't have control of. One is getting the permitting and getting the catalyst, but we have a line on both and we'll be pursuing both addresses.
spk10: Okay. I appreciate that. And then just on the hedging, you did undertake some additional sort of hedges here. And can we talk a little bit about hedging going forward, beyond what you did in 1Q? Are you going to do additional swaps, or have you already done swaps for the second quarter?
spk07: Yeah. Thanks, Doug, here. We put no additional positions on since those hedges rolled. So, you know, strategically, we would look to repeat, if possible, what we, our approach from last year. So if we see a late summer run on gasoline cracks into the winter, then we would look to capture some of that and hedge it off. We have no idea whether we'll get that opportunity or not, but that strategically, just so you know what we're looking at, that's how we look at that. And then similar to what we did in this winter, if we see diesel cracks persist at levels that are attractive, you know, from above what we expect, then we'll do the same with diesel. So that's, you know, our strategy would mirror what we did with gasoline in late summer and then what we did with diesel in winter for next year. That'd be the same outlook.
spk10: Okay. Thanks. Maybe one more. You know, maybe talk a little bit about the process or where the process sits in and around, you know, the strategic alternatives now that the company is, you know, making the decision to pause RDA operations, you know, for the current environment, how you're thinking about the pathway for the business going forward and some of the other options that you mentioned in your prepared remarks.
spk06: Hey, good morning Noah. This is Ben. Thanks for the question. Obviously, you know, we're still very much in our process with B of A. We've got good outcomes that we're working through. So nothing to report at the moment, but it's clear to that process and those that are still there, what we're doing on the pause and pivot. So we will continue forward with that. And, you know, hopefully we'll bring good information back to the market once we conclude the process.
spk09: Well, appreciate all the color. Thanks for taking the questions. Thank you.
spk02: Next question comes from Samir Joshi from WingRite. Your line is now open.
spk04: Yeah, good morning. Thanks for taking my question. I think we agree it's a prudent decision of the pause and transition. But just a quick question on the actual operations of the RD. Is every incremental barrel that you're producing at a positive gross margin, contribution margin right now? And if not, then does it make sense to completely pause production instead of having some level of production at this facility?
spk09: Yeah,
spk07: I think, Doug here, I think I follow you that, you know, if there's negative contribution margin, why run it all? I think that's effectively the conclusion we came to. So, you know, we're running off our existing inventory of feedstocks now, and then, you know, preparing the unit for the conversion, as James described from a catalyst perspective. So, you know, that's, we didn't see any reason to persist in those losses. You know, the forward curve on feedstocks is flat. So there's no, you know, there's no implied benefit coming in terms of feedstock costs. Rens have, you know, collapsed materially from where they were last year, which was already down substantially from the previous year. LCFS has been, you know, bouncing a little bit, but it's, you know, it's substantially below levels where it, you know, commands production. So when you look at those, you know, it just doesn't look like there's a combination of any of those to us that would provide positive margins for the next several quarters.
spk04: Understood. And just a quick follow up on Noah's previous question as to what it entails. Just wanted to understand, are there any foreseen or foreseeable issues, hurdles in this transition process, like from an engineering point of view or from construction point of view, and what kind of safeguards have you put in place or are you putting in place?
spk06: No, thank you. This is James again. No, no hurdles from an engineering. We're just going to make sure as safeguards that you've described, we will go through full management of change and a process hazard analysis of the unit to make sure that the changes made with RD have been taken into account in this service and make sure that, you know, we have a lot of conversions back and making sure all those are in good shape and the changes we made associated with RD would be accounted for as we do the conversion back. And we'll have those and we'll have a, you know, full engineering analysis and make sure that we've done it safely and through a pre-startup safety review.
spk04: I'm just, thanks for that. And the last one, on capital preservation or cost savings, since the integration in 2022, your HG&A has been pretty steady, around 40 million on a gap basis. Do you foresee or are you planning any further resource optimization or lowering of the cost from a preserving cash point of view?
spk08: Yeah, this is Chris, good question. So, I mean, we do currently have a company-wide focus on cost reductions along with SG&A expense. One thing you'll note in Q1, you did see a 5% reduction in SG&A year over year. So, you know, I'll say this is probably directionally where we will be. We are continuing to be very focused on reducing SG&A and cost in the business.
spk04: Got it, thanks for that. I'll take
spk09: other questions offline. Thanks and good luck.
spk02: The question comes from Eric Stein from Craig Kaelin. Your line is now open.
spk09: Good morning, everyone. Hey,
spk08: so I've been jumping around on calls. I apologize if I missed this, but did you quantify your estimate of what, whether it's in Q1 or what it would have been in fiscal 23 from an EBITDA perspective, without the losses
spk09: from renewable diesel? Yeah,
spk06: so we take the loss, you're asking without the losses of renewable diesel? Yeah, without the losses,
spk08: what, I mean, what should we, just curious if you quantified what the incremental EBITDA would be or what you would expect given this action you're taking? Yeah, so we did a similar exercise, Eric, but mostly around the fuel gross margin approach. And what we did was we looked at the Hydrocracker the last time it was in service. We took those yields and applied it to Q1, which provided the benefit in distillates, which would be your gas, diesel and jet. In addition, it provided the benefit in volumes from eliminating the yield loss that we experienced when it's not in service. And that gave us about a $40 million benefit on gross profit, fuel gross margin.
spk09: Got it, and
spk08: I would assume then you're also taking out the elevated op-ex for barrel for the renewable diesel unit, given that, I guess, thinking about how this looks maybe in fourth quarter when the RD unit has been converted, direct op-ex per barrel should be dramatically less. Yes, your op-ex per barrel is gonna be less. You're gonna have less variable expenses such as logistics and other items. So yeah, you're gonna see some benefit across the board.
spk09: Got it, and then as
spk08: we think about this, obviously you had not brought on the full 14,000 barrels per day that you were planning. So we should think about this. You're roughly adding 8,000 barrels per day when all is said and done. Should we think, I was unclear, should we think about kind of a similar mix of finished products? When up and running, you also had some commentary about some upgrades to increase VTO output or just upgrade it. So maybe if you
spk09: could just provide some details, that'd be great.
spk06: Yeah, so what you'll see, if you go back on this Hader Cracker, it was about a 40 to 50% conversion unit, and its shortage, its constraint was hydrogen stripping ability.
spk00: Once they
spk06: finally get the hydrogen unit up and an additional stripper, then we'll see significant upgrade in the Hader Cracker itself and see a larger yield of diesel and less VGO. Go to about 60 plus percent conversion unit versus the 40 to 50 we get today.
spk09: Okay, so I mean, you're looking at, you'll be at what, low 70s barrel per day?
spk06: This is specifically Hader Cracker, not the crude throughput. We'll hold crude running in the average 75,000 barrels a day when all is up and running. That doesn't change.
spk08: Okay, got it. And then last thing, just on the strategic initiatives that have been ongoing with B of A, I mean, I would assume there's a component of the people that maybe you've been talking to that were more interested in the conventional refinery, curious what this move potentially does and the strategic alternatives or options that you've discussed on the call, does that encompass what you've already been doing or are you taking additional steps?
spk06: Now, so Eric, the pause and pivot certainly paints a good, much better picture on our financials as we work on these strategic alternatives. So it's, I think everybody sees the current market for renewable diesel, so there's no surprise there. I think it's well received by any alternative party that's kind of looking at the business at this point in this process. And really, no dissension on this decision or anything there. So when you look at renewable opportunities, they're more long-term as this process is unfolding. And then we also have the ability to demonstrate the true profitability asset just under this pivot strategy, taking advantage of the hydrocracker and the feedstocks that we control. So we're really setting a kind of a base of cashflow that we're running this process by. So it allows us time and it allows us more optionality and broadens interest in the alternative process that we're running.
spk09: Okay, thank you.
spk02: Our next question comes from Donovan Schaeffer from Northland Capital Market. Your line is now open.
spk05: Hey guys, thanks for taking the questions. So the first question I wanna ask is for running down the inventory levels for the RD operations. How should we think about or expect that to impact your cash positions? So on the one hand, you'll be monetizing what's in inventory and not generate cash without the need to turn around and then buy additional feedstock and replace it. But then on the other hand, I believe there is an inventory facility linked to this that would need to be paid down as well. So does everything just kind of
spk09: net
spk05: out or does this, do you end up coming out ahead or behind a little or just what do you think the net impact on your cash position will be after running down that inventory?
spk08: Yeah, thanks for this Chris, good question. Basically the way we look at it is it's gonna be neutral because as you noted, we've got a financing arrangement with the inventory. So as we run that down and clear it, there's not a lot of margin in it today as noted. And then as we clear out of the financing arrangement, we'll get a little bit of cash back on that. But when you offset it against the negative margin, I would view it as neutral.
spk05: Okay, that's helpful. And then with the, I think Ben responded to an earlier question about the Hydrocarcay unit saying, it's a 40 to 50% conversion rate from the VGO coming off the primary distillation. Converting that to diesel or refined products when it goes through the Hydrocracker and that that can be increased to 60%. I believe you said with additional hydrogen. So I guess the question is, does this mean the plan is to proceed with the phase two where, I forget the name of the partner you have there, but that the additional hydrogen that was originally intended to be plumbed into everything to take the Hydrocracker up to 14, from 8,000 to 14,000 barrels. Is that still going to happen? And then that available hydrogen ends up giving you this improvement on the Hydrocracker? Is that what's going on?
spk06: Yes, yes, that's the way to think of it. So that project will continue and it can be used for two reasons, of course. One is it helps the Hydrocracker in its conversion. But if we ever choose to go back to renewables, we'll need that hydrogen to get full rates.
spk05: Okay, great, so that's helpful. And then when you were running the Hydrocracker for conventional throughput before, before you stopped to convert it over to renewable diesel, I believe you were still, at least up until the end there, you were still getting an olefin seed stock that was coming out of that as part of the byproduct that then would go on to shell at their petrochemical plant to then make plastics or something with it. Is that something, do we go back to that? Can you resume selling the olefin seed to shell? How do I think about income in the context of the other part? Because maybe that gets compensated for by the conversion rate for the diesel and so forth. If you're going from 40 to 50 range up to 60% range, maybe that's making up for the olefin piece. I don't actually quite know how the olefin and what share of Hydrocracker, how that fit in, and if that's important, and if you can just turn it back to the way it was, or if you have to find another olefin counterparty, how does that work?
spk07: Yeah, there's more commotion. It's Doug here, I'll take that. I mean, there is, I mean, clearly we will be, the VGO coming off the unit that isn't converted to finish fuels will be of the previous grade that was sold to shell or supplied internally when they were running this as a network for olefin feedstock. Undetermined at this time whether we can get a value improvement for Hydrocracker VGO at this grade. It certainly will be as good or better than the previous quality produced, so there's reason to expect that those markets would be available to us again, but at this point we don't have any indication that that would be a value uplift versus the VGO market that we sell into every day to day.
spk05: Okay, so just so I'm clear, it's like the VGO comes off the primary distillation tower. You've got that VGO then going into the Hydrocracker. A certain amount of that, say, we'll get to 60% of that, is gonna get turned into much higher margin fuel. The 40% that isn't converted into fuel that comes out, is that just the same as VGO? Like it kind of went in and came out and there was no change to it, and that is also synonymously or incidentally also what was called olefin feed before, or is there actually a change to that other 40% and it's like a different quality product, but you have to figure out what to do. Yeah.
spk06: Yeah, it's different. It's slightly better than just straight run VGO. However, we don't, Whether it's then determined if we can get a premium for it, but you gotta buy close to four.
spk05: Okay, and then if I could squeeze this one more in talking about the fourth quarter, you know, will we have, I guess first would be by the, when fourth quarter comes around and we expect it to be running full out with conventional, will we get back to the yield, the refined product or fuel kind of yield jet, diesel, gasoline that we had back in, I don't know, gosh, Q2 or Q3 like a year ago, I think it was about 75% or maybe 74%. But does that nudge up a bit with the higher, will the additional hydrogen capacity be on by then? Basically just, you know, what refined product or high margin product yield should we expect kind of on a go-forward basis in Q4?
spk06: Yeah, go back to, you know, 22. And you know, that should be your basis, even though we believe we're gonna do better than that because we've made some yield improvements, which we're not gonna back up on even with this conversion, but that at least gives you a starting point.
spk05: Okay, and I think that's where I got the 74 from, but I don't have my model in front of me. Is that in the ballpark?
spk06: Yes, you're in the ballpark.
spk05: Okay, all right. All right, thanks guys.
spk09: I'll take the rest of my questions offline.
spk02: Our next question comes from Sonia Jane from UPS. Your line is now open.
spk01: Hey, good morning guys. You see, we talked a bit about how, you know, with marketing conditions right now, part of the reason, or marketing reason that we're pivoting from renewable to diesel. How easily would you guys even be able to pivot back? Should that change? How fruitful would that be? Is that something you consider?
spk07: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, you know, just as the team has preserved our optionality on this unit going, you know, back to conventional, we're doing the same, taking the same engineering approach and operations approach to preserve the optionality to come back into renewables. Obviously, frankly, each time you do it, you get better at it because you've got experience, but also you continue to close any gaps, you know, mechanically that might've arose as you did the work. So, you know, we have a natural option, if you would, every time we come up on a catalyst change, you know, we're gonna evaluate the forward market conditions, look at what those yields would produce in terms of margin and make that decision, you know, as we order catalyst and plan the turnaround. So, you know, for renewables, that's every year. In conventional service, it's roughly every two years. You know, one could certainly make that decision earlier if there was just, you know, disproportionate or dislocated margins available for some reason, and you had confidence in your ability to achieve those, but the normal schedule would be just to evaluate this every time we have a catalyst change plan and then use that turnaround as our option point to go one direction or the other.
spk01: And then I guess on another kind of separate note, would you guys or have you considered any potential, you know, joint venture partners to help with the cash flow in regards to the refinery itself?
spk09: I mean, as far as like other intermediators
spk08: to come in to represent
spk09: the
spk00: current...
spk08: Yeah, I mean, what we're really focused on right now, you know, the term debt is due within 11 months, basically today. So we're really focused on number one, as you heard, the strategic financing opportunities, as well as a, you know, a refocus on refinancing the term debt at the moment.
spk02: Got it, thank you. Question comes from Brian Butler from Stifle. Your line is now open.
spk09: Good morning, thanks for taking my question. Morning.
spk06: I just wanted to start on the going concern disclosure and the 10Q. Can we put maybe a little additional color and square that kind of with what we're discussing in the call here and what's behind that analysis? Is it just the term loan coming due in 11 months or, you know, what is the opportunity timeline
spk08: between, you know, for forward financing that term loan? Yeah, great question, Brian. So yeah, that is strictly around the term debt coming due within a 12 month window of the filing. So, you know, GAAP requires us to disclose that. You know, as noted, we're very focused on a refinancing and, you know, we feel very good about where we're at. We've got 11 months to do that. So that process is underway today.
spk06: Okay, and then on the conventional, when you think about getting the hydro cracker back to conventional production, you maybe give at a high level how we should think about gross profit, EBITDA, and maybe sensitivity kind of to the spread as we get to a run rate in 2025 for that conventional business. I mean, how much EBITDA can that generate or how sensitive
spk09: is that to the spread? Yeah, I mean, the best
spk08: thing to do would be look back at, you know, as James noted, Q4 of 22. Look at that yield slate. And you basically see that we will produce more gasoline, more diesel and jet and less BGO. As far as exposure to the market and cracks, it's still the same. There's no difference.
spk06: Okay, and then last one on renewable diesel. Where does the D4 RIN or the LCF as credit in feedstock costs really need to be for you guys to go back and reconsider
spk09: starting back renewable diesel production?
spk07: Yeah, I mean, I think if you look back historically, you know, we'd need to see a margin environment similar to the margin environment that existed when we made this investment decision, which was, you know, so again, if you look at, you know, 22 and maybe first quarter of 23, I think before the curves really collapsed. But, you know, again, I think if you looked at those values and, you know, on a kind of annual average in 2022, by and large, that would certainly incentivize us to fully evaluate converting back at the number. You know, at an upcoming catalyst change, if those were the curves we were looking at, you know, that would make that a viable candidate at that time. If you look at the, certainly the margin environment, you know, in most of 23 and certainly what it's been in 24, that's to date, then obviously very unattractive.
spk09: Okay, and
spk06: I guess tied to that, would you have to go through the whole certification pathway again for the, you know, before the BTC and the credits? Is that like another, would be
spk09: a whole nother group of hurdles to get over?
spk06: No, no, no, we can preserve those. We have a timeframe, we've got certain things we have to do to be able to preserve those administratively, but we will continue to preserve those in the future, as long as we can.
spk09: Okay, great, thanks for taking my questions.
spk02: Our next question comes from Jason Gabbelman from TD Cohen, your line is now open.
spk03: Hey, morning, thanks for taking my questions. I missed some of the calls, so apologies. This has already been discussed, but the offtake agreement with Irimatsu-I are there, that was for the renewable diesel product. Are there any commitments that you'll have to follow through on despite shutting down the renewable diesel production, or is there any cost associated with ending that contract?
spk07: Well, I guess to clarify, Dave and Doug here, yeah, we don't intend to end that contract. We continue to have a very good relationship with Irimatsu in all regards. So we want that contract to continue should we resume renewable production. So that's, our belief is that Irimatsu values that as well, and that's our current indication. So it's more of a pause than a cessation in permanent terms, and that's a fairly long-term contract. So it currently goes beyond our next sort of window when we would evaluate this again. There are some operational obligations for both of us in that arrangement that we're working through and dealing with currently. Is there residual costs in our systems on a go-forward basis coming out of this? Potentially, not definitively, but certainly potentially associated with Irimatsu, and then we also have storage capacity in mobile that was secured specifically to support RD that we believe we have uses for and can trade around those assets and make use of those rents that we're paying on those tanks, but there's a tail on the tank rents too.
spk03: Okay, but to be clear, you don't have to go out and buy renewable diesel in the open market to fulfill some sort of contractual obligation moving forward.
spk07: No, the Irimatsu is a production offtake agreement, not a guaranteed production agreement, right? So it flexes with our production.
spk03: Okay, thanks. And then my other one was just on maybe some of the cash benefits from ending the renewable diesel service. So, Chris, can you provide a working capital benefit that you expect to get from running down that feedstock? And then is there any offset from building more conventional related inventories?
spk08: Yeah, I mean, from the RD perspective, I don't see a big benefit in working capital as we look at running this down. On the conventional, as you know, we've got the financing agreement for our inventory flowing through. So there shouldn't be a big change in working capital as we transition.
spk09: Okay, great. Yeah, sorry.
spk07: You say the only difference is, the refined products will go up a bit because we're making more of them. And some of those move via vessel. So you'll see builds that you build inventory to load the ship. But similar to what we do with jet today. So that'd be the only material difference that you'll see in the inventory side.
spk09: Got it, great. Thanks for the answers.
spk02: As of right now, we don't have any pending questions. I'd now like to hand back over to Mr. Ben Covert, CEO. Thank you.
spk06: Yeah, thank you, operator. And thank you everyone for joining the call today. We are very, very positive about this initiative and the pause and pivot. We really believe it's the right time and place to be able to make that move. And I just wanna thank our team and our leadership team as well, folks at the site, our legacy business, all the good work they did over the quarter. So we're looking forward to really putting cashflow back on the business where it should be. And really gives us time to work on our renewable strategy. And there's lots of opportunities long-term that we believe our asset is gonna be of high interest. So we're gonna take our time here with our conventional business and put us back to good cashflow and move the business forward. So having the flexibility around the asset and the ability to do this is very important and to the credit of our people to be able to put us in this position, it really gives us a big step forward. So thank you everybody and really appreciate again making the call and we look forward to some future communications as we go forward.
spk02: Thank you so much for attending today's conference call. Have a wonderful day. You may now disconnect.
Disclaimer