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Operator
Welcome to the Wynn Resorts third quarter 2021 earnings call. All participants are on a listen-only mode until the question and answer session of today's conference. To ask a question, please press star 1 on your touchtone phone, record your name, and I will introduce you. Please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up question. This call is being recorded. If you have any objections, you may disconnect at this time. I will now turn the line over to Craig Billings, Chief Financial Officer. Sir, you may begin.
Craig Billings
Thank you, Operator, and good afternoon, everyone. On the call with me today are Matt Maddox and Brian Goldbrant in Las Vegas. Also on the line are Ian Collins, Linda Chen, Kieran Carruthers, Frederick Lubasuto, and Jenny Holliday. I want to remind you that we may make forward-looking statements under safe harbor federal securities laws, and those statements may or may not come true. I'll now turn the call over to Matt Maddox.
Matt Maddox
Thanks, Craig. And thank you all for joining us today. So first I'd like to address my decision to leave the company. I've been at Wynn for 20 years and been the CEO for the last four. And I made a commitment in 2018 to this company and to the board of directors and what was likely one of the messiest transitions in corporate history, that I would do everything I could to keep the culture, to get the company on firm footing, and to ensure that we would emerge better than we were before. Now, along that journey, as we were making lots of progress and getting things stable, we bumped into a pandemic. And that was the time, really, when wind was able to shine. We became the beacon in hospitality. People looked at us on what to do. We paid all of our staff during the shutdown. We invested in our culture. We knew that by doing those things and continuing to be exactly who we are, that it would pay off over the long term, not just for our people and for our customers, but for our shareholders. I'd like to thank the unwavering commitment and support of the Board of Directors during these four years. After we made this decision, they did ask me if I would remain on the Winn-McCow Board to ensure stability and to assist with the concession renewal process there, which I agreed to do through 2022, and also the Wynn Interactive Board to make sure that we create lots of value for the Wynn Resort shareholders, which I also agreed to. I'm very happy to say that the board is 100% behind and has picked the exact right person to replace me as I transition out in Craig Billings. Craig has been my right-hand man for five years now. He's been through the good, the bad, all of it, and he knows what to do. He understands culture. He's not a guy that's going to build a big corporate infrastructure. He makes decisions fast, and he feels the brand. And the company really couldn't be in a better position going forward. And, in fact, if you look at that, I think the proof is in this quarter. If we just jump to the results and get to business here, in Las Vegas, we made $183 million of EBITDA. And that's not a whole bunch of cost savings that are going to go away over time. Again, you sustain the margin, et cetera. Only $15 to $18 million of that $183 came from cost savings. The rest of it, we're taking market share. Over the last four years, we've opened a 400,000 square foot convention facility. We built a new golf course. We have changed out 40 of our 60 retail stores to become the shopping destination. We restructured our club so that margins went from 7% to almost 30%. We've raised our prices in our hotels, seeing straight flow through. Every area, we're taking share, casino included. We are not only outpacing all of our results, but we're taking share from the market. I knew coming in that we needed to cater to a demographic that was in more the 30 to 50s on top of our current demographic in the baby boomer generation. We've opened lots of new restaurants. In fact, one of the new ones, Delilah, if you call right now, you can't get in until February. I've never seen anything like it. And while that's one restaurant, it's an example of all the changes that we've made that have really set the foundation for when Las Vegas to take off like a rocket ship. And I think one of the most important aspects of a successful business is culture. People talk about that, but we all know in our business, only people make people happy. And if your employees believe that their future will be better because of the place they work and that their employer is going to take care of them when times get tough, you've harnessed the power of the universe. And that's what we have going on right now. Look, I'll give you an example. Hospitality is experiencing extreme labor shortages right now throughout North America. It's a fact. People are talking about it, but not at Wynn. We had four open servers in our restaurants, positions, open positions last month. We had 1,066 people apply. Sure, big tip job. You might expect that. We had 22 open positions for casino cleaners last month. They clean the bathrooms, the casino, the restaurants. They make the place sparkle. We had 2,015 people apply for those 22 spots. That is the sign of a good business. That's when you know you're going to win over the long term because your customers understand that loyalty and people want to be here. And so I feel very good about where Win Las Vegas is in terms of its culture, its employees, the product, and its future. Looking at Encore Boston Harbor, same thing. Record results, $64 million of EBITDA. And we did very similar that we did in Las Vegas during the shutdown was we looked at things that weren't working. We had a buffet that was losing $12 million a year. So we ripped it out while we were shut down, and we built probably the world's best sports bar that once Massachusetts legalizes sports betting, it'll be the best sports book on the East Coast hands down. We put in new food and beverage offerings. We reconfigured the entire casino. We changed out our casino loyalty program, and our database has been growing exponentially. We have over 418,000 people in the database, and at the trajectory that it's growing now, that's probably going to double over the next two years. So Encore Boston Harbor, again, is only at the beginning of its growth, and the North American assets really couldn't be in a better position. There was a little bit of concern that maybe the stimulus money or, uh, pent up demand, et cetera, was causing some of this. And that, that, that may be true for the. You know, for the third quarter and what we experienced in the summer, but it's certainly continuing in October when Las Vegas has its best month on record, highest EBITDA highest margin. And we held below our normal range. Same at Encore Boston Harbor. The group business is coming back. We've seen groups taking up over 30% of our room nights in August and September. And the way that we're running these facilities now and the way that we're yielding and being unrelenting on price because people like the quality, the flow through is happening. Just last weekend, our average rate was $780 in Las Vegas, and we're at 99% occupancy. And that is continuing into the future. because we're taking market share, and Las Vegas itself is growing. Turning to Macau, we've had, as everyone in the market has had, fits and starts there as to the business, but what has been very encouraging over the last month has been the consultation process with the government. It's been open. It's been transparent. It's been productive. And we feel very good about the future of Macau and our position in Macau. Looking at when interactive, we launched lots of new product this quarter that we're very proud of. We made great progress in Arizona with first time depositors and we're seeing good customer feedback and our retention is quite strong. However, the market is really not sustainable right now. Competitors are spending too much to get customers, and the economics are just not something that we're going to participate in in the short term. So while we built the brand, we launched the product in the third quarter, we're going to be focused on building a long-term business that's sustainable that is not losing lots and lots of money. So we are shifting our strategy to think about the future, think about the long term, think about cash preservation, and we remain very confident that we'll create significant value for the Wynn Resort shareholders with our digital strategy. With that, I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to Craig. Congratulations, Craig. Thank you, Matt.
Craig Billings
And let him go through some more details. Thank you. Like everyone in the company, I've admired your leadership over the course of the past four years. More than anyone, you know the dedication and talent of the thousands of folks who make up the Wynn team, and I'm honored to have been asked to lead that team. Turning to the quarter, at Wynn Las Vegas, we generated $183.4 million of adjusted property EBITDA on $476 million of operating revenue. Overall, our hotel occupancy reached 83% in the quarter, with 93% occupancy on weekends. Importantly, we've stayed true to our luxury brand and have resisted dropping rate, with overall ADR reaching $392 during the third quarter of 21, nearly 30% above Q3 2019 levels. Our other non-gaming business saw broad-based strength across F&B and retail, which was also well above pre-pandemic levels. In the casino, our Q3 21 slot handle was 31% above Q3 2019, and table drop was 18% above Q3 2019, despite still suppressed international play due to COVID-related travel challenges. The team in Las Vegas has done a great job of controlling costs without negatively impacting the guest experience, delivering a record adjusted property EBITDA margin of 38.5% in the quarter. OPEX per day was 3 million in Q3 2021, approximately 250,000 per day below Q3 2019 levels, despite the 19% increase in revenue. As new high-margin business-like groups and convention return to the property, we expect OPEX to increase modestly, but we remain committed to maintaining the cost structure that appropriately balances margins and our exacting service standards. In Boston, we generated another record quarter with adjusted property EBITDA of $64.6 million in Q3 on a record EBITDA margin of 33.6. We've remained very disciplined on the cost side there, too, with OPEX per day excluding a $3 million benefit from a few one-time items of $950,000 in Q3-21, a decrease of over 25% compared to $1.3 million per day in Q4-19, and a modest increase relative to Q2-21. Our Macau operations delivered $10.2 million of EBITDA in the quarter on $312 million of operating revenue. While business in the quarter was challenging due to the evolving COVID situation, we remained disciplined on costs. Our OPEX excluding gaming tax and the reversal of certain performance-based incentive accruals in the third quarter was approximately $2.1 million per day. We continue to be well-positioned to drive strong operating leverage as the business recovers. Turning to Wynn Interactive, in Q3, the business generated approximately $645 million in total turnover, disproportionately weighted to September. In late August, we launched a number of key product improvements, which have been well received by customers. On a normalized basis, Winn Interactive is now run rating over $170 million of gross revenue. During the quarter and since, we have achieved several other key milestones for the business, including launching day one in Arizona, where we drove over 26,000 first-time depositors through September 30th, securing a number of additional market access agreements, obtaining a license to operate in the state of New York, and becoming an official sports betting partner of the NFL. While sports betting remains an exciting, high-growth market and will potentially be a $30 billion to $40 billion TAM over time, the marketplace is proving to be very competitive, with multiple operators deploying meaningful marketing dollars, driving high cost per acquisition, and significant customer bonus offers. In light of this dynamic, we are intentionally pivoting our approach to scalings. taking a more measured and long-term focus to grow healthy and sustainable business, as Matt mentioned. Thus, we expect our Q3 and Q4 EBITDA burn, driven heavily by our branding campaign and pre-opening user acquisition in Arizona, will decline materially beginning in Q1 2022 as we focus on cost per acquisition that is commensurate with customer lifetime values. We continue to believe in our team, our product, and the longer-term opportunities. And there are certainly paths to grow our business in ways that create value for Wynn Resort shareholders. But the current combination of large-scale brand spend, performance marketing spend, and customer bonuses that we see in the marketplace does not drive unit economics that meet our return requirements. Turning to the balance sheet, our liquidity position remains very strong with global cash and revolver availability of over $3.7 billion as of September 30th. In Macau, we had approximately $1.8 billion of available liquidity as of September 30th, and in the U.S., we had total available liquidity of approximately $1.9 billion as of September 30th. As previously announced, during the quarter, Wynn Macau Limited entered into a new $1.5 billion senior unsecured revolving credit facility that matures in 2025. The arrangement includes broad participation by our group of supportive existing lenders, including local and international banks. Borrowing under the new facility, along with $200 million of cash on hand, were used to refinance and retire our existing senior secured credit facility. Finally, our CapEx in the quarter was $103 million, and we remain prudent with respect to CapEx while we gain further confidence in the recovery. As a reminder, we are limited in what we can say about Winn Interactive due to the live S4 that we have on file. With that, we'll now open up the call to Q&A. Operator?
Operator
Thank you. To ask a question, press star one on your touchtone phone, unmute your phone, record your name clearly after the prompt, and I will introduce you for your question. To withdraw your question, press star two. Our first question is from Carlo Santorelli with Deutsche Bank. You may go ahead.
Carlo Santorelli
Hey, everyone. Thank you. And Matt, congratulations. Craig, congratulations as well. Guys, obviously you spent some time talking about Wynn Interactive and fully appreciating that you can't say much given where you are in the process. The decision to pivot, is that something where, as you think about the way the market is shaping up and what I would assume you deem as unprofitable cohorts of customers that are being acquired right now by others, Is that something that, in your view, changes in the next six to nine months, or is it something where you'll wait until you actually see kind of that change start to happen?
Craig Billings
Yeah, it's a great question, Carlo. As we've talked about before, we're really focused on lifetime value versus cost per acquisition. And when that ratio is favorable, we're more than happy to invest to drive long-term profitable growth. If you materially overshoot on CPA or offer non-economic promotions, then you can end up upside down on a customer pretty quickly, which obviously isn't very shareholder friendly. In the current environment, there are certainly opportunities for us to do ROI positive acquisition. They absolutely exist. It's really a question of scale. So if you're not trying to be aggressive and drive headline market share with large-scale brand spend, performance spend, hyper-aggressive customer promos, there are absolutely opportunities to grow the business over the course of the longer term.
Carlo Santorelli
That's helpful. Thank you, Craig. And then, Matt, maybe this one's for you as you kind of talked about the consultation and some of the encouraging things that were coming out of those meetings. Do you have any sense coming out of there to the extent that you could share When you're starting to think about the next steps in the process and potentially some more visibility into not only the timeline of the process, but maybe some of the things that we should expect coming out of it.
Matt Maddox
What I can tell you is when the government announced the consultation process, it was very structured. It had a beginning timeline and when the meetings were going to be scheduled, and everything happened exactly as they had laid out. We've just been very happy with how open it's been and how constructive it's been, and I think that that is going to continue throughout 22 as Macau, you know, really focuses on the long-term health and stability, which they have continued to say, of the industry and of the region. So, you know, I can't give any specific dates or timelines, but what I can tell you is we're very confident in the process.
Carlo Santorelli
That's great. Thank you both.
Matt Maddox
Thanks, Carlo.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Joe Gruff with JP Morgan. You may go ahead.
Joe Gruff
Hello, everyone. Matt, congratulations. Best of luck. It's been a long time. And Craig, very happy for you. Congratulations on your promotion. Thanks, Joe. Matt, do you want to give any more description to the reason why you're stepping away now? I'm not sure the statement, the press release really kind of delved into that in great detail, and maybe there are reasons for that. And then my second question, Craig, I know you have opinions on casino real estate monetization. Given just the valuations we've seen in Las Vegas and elsewhere in regional casino markets, I was hoping you can give us your updated thoughts, particularly maybe with particular attention to EBH. Thank you.
Matt Maddox
Yeah, sure, Joe. Actually, there's nothing more to it than what I laid out at the beginning of this call. I've been here for 20 years. I was Steve Wynn's right-hand guy for a long time, and when that transition happened, I made the commitment that I was going to make sure this company didn't lose what it was built on, which was excellence, service-driven, and just being the best. And, you know, that's what I wanted to do. That's what I wanted to achieve, and we've done that. Now, the pandemic, frankly, elongated my program a little bit because when that hit, I realized, you know, I needed to lead through that and make sure that we come out better than ever. So it's really one of those it's been 20 years, exactly what I wanted to achieve, we've done. And I feel like the management team that's in place, the people that are in place, and where this company is that it's the right time for me to go do something else, which I'm quite excited about, and Craig is the exact right person to step in. There's really nothing more to it. I committed to four years, and that's my four-year anniversary.
Craig Billings
And on the real estate side, Joe, you know our position. Our position is if over any reasonable period of time our valuation appropriately reflects the value of our real estate, then we're always more content to control that real estate and be able to invest in that real estate. And really that hasn't changed. To the extent that it does change, then obviously we'll have to consider what's in the best interest of shareholders.
Joe Gruff
Great. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Thomas Allen with Morgan Stanley. You may go ahead.
Thomas Allen
Thank you, and just wanted to reiterate the congratulations to you both on Matt, what's been a great career, and Craig, congratulations on the new role.
Craig Billings
Thank you.
Thomas Allen
So the U.S. results are really stellar. Back in mid-2019, you guys had set targets of $515 million for Vegas. and $275 million for Boston. Any updated thoughts around the kind of longer-term outlook for those properties?
Matt Maddox
Well, yeah, sure, I'll jump in. And I think that given what we're seeing now, those estimates feel quite conservative. And I think it's pretty clear. What we achieved in Las Vegas was its market share taking And it's a restructure of the business. It's not, you know, I think that we all sit around and think our normalized margins are between 35 and 40 in this market. And so we didn't go out and cut a whole bunch of costs and slowly bring people back trying to squeeze every last dollar. No, we went out and got more customers. And I think that's going to continue. And the same at Encore Boston Harbor.
Craig Billings
There isn't one piece of the business, Thomas, that we haven't touched yet. and addressed and changed and adapted. So really, these two assets are firing on all cylinders.
Thomas Allen
Perfect. Thanks. And then just following up on the transition, any thoughts on the new CFO? And then, Craig, are you going to still run Wynn Interactive? How are you thinking about that? Thanks.
Craig Billings
Sure. We're fortunate, you know, at the company that we have a reasonably deep bench at the We've hired some real talent on the Wynn Interactive side, so we'll be coming back to you soon with the management structure, with a revised management structure and an outlook, and we'll talk to you about it then. Stay tuned.
Thomas Allen
Perfect. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Sean Kelly with Bank of America. You may go ahead.
spk00
Great. Good afternoon, everyone. And, yeah, Matt, Craig, for my congratulations as well. Matt, it's been a long number of years, so I look forward to hearing what's next. You know, Craig, I'd love to hit on a couple of the comments, and I know there's only so much you can probably cover right now on interactive. The comments specifically on CPAs, I mean, I know you know this formula better than probably anyone else on this call. Can you talk about the prevailing level of what you're seeing out there? Because one challenge we all run into as analysts is the formula spits out, in a way, a little bit of whatever you want. The more you spend on marketing, you can justify it if your LTV is higher, and it's hard for us to independently validate. Just a little bit of thought around what is that prevailing level of spend out there? and sort of what do you maybe want it to be to make the model or math work to what you think is going to be a profitable long-term?
Craig Billings
Sure, Sean. Yeah, we don't quote specific CPAs or specific LTVs. LTVs, of course, are a pretty lengthy forward-looking estimate. What I would say is that you really have kind of three elements that impact this, right? You have brand spend, you have performance spend where you're actually buying digital ads to bring customers directly to the product, and then you have the underlying promotion that you're providing to the customer. And some participants in the market have structural advantages in those areas. Some participants don't. And so when you're pulling all three of those levers into a very, very aggressive market where there's a ton of competition and a ton of folks doing the same thing, it can become particularly difficult, particularly in states where you're entering the market late. So in Arizona, as an example, where we did 26,000-plus FTDs over the course of September, that's a great outcome. Other states where maybe you're entering or scaling a little bit late, it becomes much more offer-driven, and you can, again, pretty quickly get upside down. So I think what we're focused on is leveraging the advantages that we have. We have a database. We have a brand. And to the extent that we're not aggressively chasing every single lever, we can build a business over the longer term that's a great business into what will eventually be a really, really strong TAM.
spk00
Thanks for that. And then maybe a pivot for my follow-up, but just focused on or looking out to Las Vegas for 2022. You obviously have a shiny, brand-new convention center that's never been fully able to be utilized before. Can you talk a little bit about how you expect that to ramp in 22 and when we might be at a level that you might consider run rate or really showing the potential of all the levers that you have there?
Matt Maddox
Sure. Hey, Brian, why don't you take that?
spk06
Sure. The group rooms that we have right now are pacing ahead for 22 and even for 23, all at solid ADRs. The sales team is doing an amazing job, and I think we continue to see – the interest level just spiking for some reason. It's fantastic. We even have short-term interest. So, very solid on the group side and foresee this continuing.
spk00
Thank you very much.
Operator
Thanks, Sean. Thank you. The next question is from Steven Grambling with Goldman Sachs. You may go ahead.
Steven Grambling
Thanks. I'll offer my congrats and best wishes as well. Two follow-ups to earlier questions. First, on Macau, while the timing of recovery is uncertain, given your confidence in the concession renewal, what are some of the things that you are doing now or plan on doing to change the positioning of the assets to cater more to premium mass?
Matt Maddox
Yeah, sure. Ian, why don't you jump in and take that?
Robin
So over the last three years, we've been pivoting luxury assets that were formerly taken up by junket operators, and we've been opening them up for premium mass, whether it's at villas, in our towers, high-end suites, and general gaming spaces. And we are fortunate to have the best assets and best service in market, so the pivot is very, very straightforward for us.
Steven Grambling
Great. And then maybe as an unrelated follow-up on real estate value, Craig, I appreciate the response on valuation. So if we were to look at Vegas and Boston assets separately, are the two markets seeing different kind of potential differences in capital intensity and valuation from where you sit today? Thanks.
Craig Billings
Well, on the capital intensity side, naturally Boston is going to be less capital intensive. It's just the nature of the business there and the nature of the asset relative to Vegas. Vegas is a market of pretty consistent reinvention, and as Matt mentioned, we've done an incredible job at that. On the valuation side, again, I think you have to look over any reasonable period of time and look at the value of the real estate within the broader business. So we watch that very closely. We watch it all the time. And we're very conscientious of the underlying real estate value. But that has historically been our position, and it remains unchanged.
Steven Grambling
Do you think that the competitors' response to – or competitors actually pursuing this have actually changed the competitive environment, perhaps, to your beneficiary?
Craig Billings
Thanks. Have they changed the competitive environment? I guess, you know, it's just a form of financing, right? It's no different than a piece of debt. It just happens to be, over time, a more expensive piece of debt than we observe in the bond markets today. At the end of the day, each operator is going to make their own decision and form their own strategy. Being an opco has its advantages and has its disadvantages, depending upon what's happening in the broader business. So I don't think it's an operational question other than the willingness to continue to reinvest in your business and how you do that, but I don't think it's a day-to-day operational question per se. Fair enough. Thanks.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from David Katz with Jefferies. You may go ahead.
David Katz
Hi. This is Cassandra asking on behalf of David. First, congratulations to both Matt and Craig on behalf of David. And thanks for taking your questions. So I would like to ask about New York. You got the license yesterday, just given the high tax rate at 51% and your comment around pivoting in your approach to scalability. So how are you thinking about your launch in New York?
Craig Billings
Thank you. Yeah, we were really pleased to be awarded that license yesterday. And New York clearly has the potential to be one of the largest addressable markets in the U.S. Given the tax rate, as you point out, it's a prime example of a market where you need to be incredibly prudent with respect to marketing and bonus expense, which obviously, as you also pointed out, a theme that I discussed pretty heavily in my prepared remarks. We have a great database in New York, particularly in the more affluent areas of the state. And certainly to the extent that you're prudent with marketing spend and bonusing, there's the opportunity to build a business there over time. But no doubt the tax rate is the headwind that we all have to acknowledge.
David Katz
Got it. And if I may follow up, I think there is a request for information in New York for a downstate license. Any thoughts around potentially pursuing that or pursuing other organic or greenfield opportunities for Wynn?
Matt Maddox
Yeah, this is Matt. And, you know, Craig and I have, for the last five plus years, you know, we work on these things together, and that is what Wynn does. So I think we will be participating in the New York process up until it seems either like a good deal or uneconomic, and it's hard to know. But that's one that we're going to keep a close eye on. And there are other potential new jurisdictions that could be really exciting, actually. And, you know, what's so great about this company is our design team and architecture team, over 100 people that are responsible for Mirage and Treasure Island and Bellagio and basically, you know, the modern-day integrated resort, are all intact and excited. And, you know, you can't build something new if you haven't built these things in the past. And our team is really good at that and understands how to make these things work, both financially but more importantly for the customer. So if a new opportunity comes up that makes sense for Wynn and the Wynn brand, I think that the team will continue to look at it.
David Katz
Got it. Thank you very much for taking my questions.
Craig Billings
Thank you. Operator, we have time for one last question.
Operator
Thank you. Our last question is from Robin Farley with UBS. You may go ahead.
Robin Farley
Robin Farley Great. Thanks for taking the question, Craig. Let me add my congratulations on top of everyone else's on the new role. I had a question about the potential gaming law changes in Macau. I'm just wondering what your view is on, you know, if government approval is required for dividends, you know, would that be a concern in terms of ability to get shareholders, you know, return on the investment there? Or would you be comfortable that that's, you know, that would not be a factor that would come into play?
Matt Maddox
Robin, it's Matt. I think everyone is focused on, you know, that issue and the industry is fairly united. And like I said, I think the government has been very open and transparent. And in fact, in one of the consultative hearings, they talked about the need to balance the employment market and stability of Macau with returns for shareholders, which I think is perfectly logical and makes a lot of sense. Ian, Linda, you're attending these meetings in person. What are your thoughts?
Robin
This is Ian. We've been very impressed with the partnership orientation of government with their pragmatism and also the progress that's being made. It's been very transparent. They've allowed us to engage directly. in person and also in writing we've shared our concerns we don't have clarity on a number of the issues at this point but we will get clarity further along the way all of the concessions have similar concerns and we believe that the fact that we've aired them and shared them that they will be given very serious consideration by government Ultimately, we're in partnership with government. They're also very aware of the growing regional competition, particularly with Japan now kicking up. So there's a desire for stability going forward, and they understand that we're businesses that need to reinvest and continue to develop. So we feel a lot of support from government. It's a process. We'll get more information further down the line, but we're very confident that they have our best interests at heart.
Robin Farley
That's great. That's very helpful color. Thank you. Can I follow up on a quick one related to the online gaming strategy, if I could, I'm just curious, you're, you know, with the approach of so many online betting operators is that revenue matters early and, you know, at, at not, I would say not at any cost, but that, and the market seems very willing to value on multiples of revenue. And I, I mean, I, I'm old school and I think as you do that profitability matters more than that. But I guess what are your thoughts about if you don't focus on that in the early stages? You mentioned that entering late is more offer driven maybe than getting in on day one. And so it seems like that suggests that you do see a tradeoff of that there will be expense later if you don't sort of capture the top-line market share up front. So I wonder if you could just put some context around that. Thank you.
Craig Billings
Sure. Sure, Robin. First, let me say that we fully intend to be day one in every market that we address. And so we'll be there. We'll be there day one. The important thing to keep in mind is it's not so much, quote, unquote, income statement profitability. It's profitability of cost per acquisition versus lifetime value. It's making sure that every first depositor that you drive or every cohort of first depositors that you drive, are ultimately profitable on a lifetime value basis. So that's where we're focused. It's much more about the return on the spend, the return on the ad spend, and certainly we believe that we have the ability to do that over time. It doesn't mean that we're going to intentionally enter markets late.
Robin Farley
And I wasn't suggesting that you would, but just that maybe holding back on the spend would mean that the revenue market share wouldn't be as high as the profitability market share. But that's helpful context. Thanks very much.
Craig Billings
Sure. No problem. All right, everybody. Thank you for joining today. We'll talk to you next quarter. Thanks.
Operator
That does conclude today's conference. You may disconnect at this time.
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