Ecovyst Inc.

We appreciate your patience and please continue to stand by. As a reminder, please silence cell phones and laptops during the presentation. Please stand by. Your program is about to begin. If you should need audio assistance during today's program, please press star zero. Good morning. My name is Raysa and I will be your conference operator today. Welcome to the Equivis fourth quarter 2024 earnings call and webcast. Please note today's call is being recorded at approximately one hour. Currently all participants have been placed in the listen-only mode to prevent any background noise. After the speaker's remarks, there will be a question and answer period. If you would like to ask a question at that time, please press star one on your telephone keypad. If you want to remove yourself from the queue, please press star two. When posing your question, we ask that you please pick up your handset to allow for optimal sound quality. Lastly, if you should need operator assistance, please press star zero. I would now like to hand the conference over to Gene Shields, director of investor relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you, operator. Good morning and welcome to the Equivis fourth quarter 2024 earnings call. With me on the call this morning are Kurt Bidding, Equivis chief executive officer, and Mike Fien, Equivis chief financial officer. Following our prepared remarks, we'll take your questions. Please note that some of the information shared today is forward-looking information, including information about the company's financial and operating performance strategies, our anticipated end-use demand trends, and our 2025 financial outlook. This information is subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause the actual results and the implementation of the company's plans to vary materially. Any forward-looking information shared today speaks only as of this date. These risks are discussed in the company's filings with the SEC. Reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures mentioned in today's call with their corresponding GAAP measures can be found in our earnings release and in presentation materials posted on the investor section of our website at equivis.com. I'll now turn the call over to Kurt Bidding.

Thank you, Gene, and good morning. We are pleased with our results for the fourth quarter of 2024. While global macroeconomic fundamentals continued to present challenges in the fourth quarter, we delivered financial results in line with our expectations, further demonstrating the resilience of our core and industrial businesses. I am also extremely proud of my EcoVis colleagues for producing more than 3 million tons of product without a single OSHA recordable injury in 2024. This was the best performance in EcoVis' history and is a testament to EcoVis' dedication to producing and delivering products in a safe and responsible manner. Our EcoServices segment continued to deliver solid results, with adjusted EBITDA up nearly 12 percent compared to the year-ago quarter, driven by increased sales volume and favorable contract pricing. In addition, sales for advanced silicons increased 5 percent, driven by higher sales of advanced silicons used in the production of polyethylene. However, and as anticipated, sales for the Zealist joint venture were lower, principally due to the timing of hydrocracking catalyst sales. Overall, for the fourth quarter of 2024, we delivered adjusted EBITDA of $76 million, up 8.7 percent compared to the fourth quarter of 2023. For the year as a whole, strong cash generation provided for a net debt leverage ratio of 3 times at the year end, down from 3.2 times on a trailing 12-month basis at September 30, 2024. 2024 was also a year of continued progress in executing on our strategic and operational objectives. During the year, our investments in reliability initiatives in our EcoServices segment provided for improved operational efficiency, supporting volume growth, and we anticipate realizing further benefits from these reliability initiatives in 2025. In addition, we continued to position EcoViz for the future, with capacity increases underway to support our core and industrial businesses, as well as for emerging technologies. The capacity expansion for our Chem32 business is underway, and we expect to complete the polyethylene catalyst capacity expansion at our Kansas City site late this year. This capacity increase, backed by customer commitments, will support expanded customer demand in 2026 and 2027. Lastly, we continued to collaborate with industry leaders to further refine technologies to enable advanced plastics recycling and to serve anticipated growth associated with biocatalysis and carbon capture processes. As we turn to slide 6, I'll provide an update on our near-term demand outlook. We maintain a cautious posture of near-term demand in certain end uses due to ongoing uncertainty in the global macroeconomic environment. However, we believe that most of the segments that we serve are underpinned by strong demand trends, so our long-term outlook remains positive. In EcoServices, we project continued positive momentum for regeneration services in 2025, with stable gasoline demand and high-alcalation unit utilization. Our refining customers are planning more maintenance activities in early 2025 as compared to 2024. As a quick comparison, six of our refining customers will execute turnarounds in the first half as compared to just two in the first half of 2024. EcoServices, in turn, will execute four of its five turnarounds in the first half of 2025 to coincide with the customer turnaround activity. For virgin sulfuric acid, the mining sector continues to show robust growth, driven by the increased use of copper in data centers and energy infrastructure. In terms of virgin sulfuric acid used in the production of nylon precursors, we foresee near-term uncertainty due to global industrial demand fluctuations and the ongoing surplus capacity in Asia, which may affect sales in the first half of the year. However, we believe demand will strengthen in the second half. Overall, we project that demand fundamentals for virgin acid sales will be firm and will improve in the second half, supported by incremental customer demand from new mining projects, expansions in lead acid battery plants, and higher anticipated demand for nylon precursors. Demand for our ex situ catalyst activation performed at Chem 32 also is projected to increase due to its effectiveness of sulfiding the catalyst and the HSE risk mitigation it offers the customers versus other technologies. Moving to our AMAC segment, 2024 was a good year for hydrocracking catalyst sales, albeit not a peak year as was the case in 2023. 2025 looks to be a stronger year for hydrocracking catalyst change-outs. In addition, we continue to see heightened interest in our mock technology, which allows enhanced flexibility and improved distillate yields for our refining customers. As a result, we currently project sales of hydrocracking catalysts to be up this year compared to 2024. As these sales typically have long lead times, our expectation for increased sales this year is based upon orders in hand. We believe the near-term outlook for catalyst sales into emission control applications will remain subdued. The four-year deferral for implementation of Euro 7 for heavy-duty diesel vehicles, uncertainty around EPA 2027, and challenging macroeconomic conditions have adversely impacted customer demand. For advanced silicos, the global outlook for polyethylene demand remains subdued, and this is compounded by excess production capacity, particularly in Asia. In the U.S. and Middle East, where we have our highest polyethylene exposure, producers are benefiting from cost advantage feedstocks and energy costs, which translates into higher overall capacity utilization rates for these regions. We believe that our customer preference for our custom catalyst design capabilities will continue to allow our sales growth to outpace overall global polyethylene demand growth. We look forward to the completion of the Kansas City capacity expansion, which will support the planned ramp-up of our customers' capacity expansions in 2026 and 2027. Turning to our emerging businesses, we continue to believe the longer-term outlook for catalyst sales supporting the production of sustainable fuels remains positive. We expect demand recovery and sales supporting renewable diesel production in the next 12 to 18 months. Concerning the increase in the production of sustainable aviation fuel, the European Union has now implemented the 2 percent blending mandate. Additionally, major airlines are maintaining their 2030 SAF usage targets. We also continue to see favorable trends for emerging applications that utilize advanced silicas, such as biocatalysis and carbon capture. Through 2030, the global enzyme market is forecasted to grow at a compounded annual growth rate of approximately 14 percent, and the value of carbon capture utilization and storage is anticipated to increase sixfold from approximately $6 billion in 2022 to roughly $35 billion by 2030. We continue to see strong customer engagement in these areas as we work with leaders and innovators on product qualification. As you hopefully have seen, earlier this month we announced a strategic partnership with Chirovision, a leading innovator of biocatalysis-based technologies for collaboration on enzyme immobilization applications. And in the Zealist joint venture, our Opal Infinity family of catalysts has been proven to significantly reduce the thermal intensity required in the production of pyrolysis oil and enable the production of higher quality and higher value pyrolysis oil for customers. We believe that projects for advanced recycling remain broadly on track, and accordingly, we anticipate that Ecovist sales will follow and commence in late 2025 through early 2026. I'll now turn the call over to Mike for a more detailed discussion of our financial results for the fourth quarter. Thank you, Kurt. Good morning. As Kurt mentioned, I will begin with a more detailed review of our fourth quarter and full-year financial results. Higher volume and favorable contract pricing of regeneration services, along with increased demand for advanced materials used for the production of polyethylene, drove the 5 percent -over-year increase in our Ecovist sales in the fourth quarter. Within our Zealist joint venture, the expected timing of hydrocracking catalyst orders led to lower sales compared to the prior year. During the fourth quarter, we recognized a non-cash $65 million impairment charge on our investment in our Zealist joint venture, driving the net loss in the quarter. The investment in our Zealist joint venture was stepped up as part of a business combination when PQ and EcoServices merged in 2016. This impairment charge reduced a portion of that step up. The reduction in the carrying value of our investment to its estimated fair value was primarily due to the demand outlook for catalyst materials used in emission control applications and the production of sustainable fuels. Adjusted EBITDA in the fourth quarter was $76 million, up nearly 9 percent -over-year, reflecting higher volume and favorable contract pricing in EcoServices and higher sales of advanced silicas used for the production of polyethylene, partially offset by the timing of hydrocracking catalyst sales within the Zealist joint venture. For the full year, sales were up 2 percent -over-year. This was primarily driven by higher volume and favorable contract pricing, partially offset by the impact of lower pricing from the pass-through of lower cost in EcoServices. Advanced silica sales were flat, as higher sales for finished polyethylene catalyst and niche custom catalyst were offset by lower sales of polyethylene catalyst supports. And sales within our Zealist joint venture were down -over-year, driven by the lower volume of hydrocracking catalysts related to the timing of customer changeouts, as well as the decreased demand for catalyst materials used in emission control applications and the production of sustainable fuels. Ecovista adjusted EBITDA for 2024 was $238 million, compared to $260 million for 2023. The lower adjusted EBITDA was primarily driven by the lower sales volume in the Zealist joint venture. Moving to the next slide, I'll highlight the major components of the change in adjusted EBITDA for the fourth quarter. The price to variable cost ratio for the fourth quarter was positive, driven largely by the strong contractual pricing and regeneration services. While fourth quarter sales volume was up in EcoServices and advanced silicas, this was more than offset by the lower sales volume in Zealist joint venture. The balance of the change in adjusted EBITDA relates to lower turnaround costs in EcoServices and the benefit of cost reductions in the Zealist joint venture. I'll now turn to the fourth quarter segment highlights, starting with EcoServices. Sales of $150 million were up 5% over the prior year quarter, driven by higher volume and favorable contract pricing and regeneration services. Adjusted EBITDA was $54 million, up nearly 12%, reflecting the higher sales volume and pricing, favorable fixed cost absorption associated with the timing of inventory build, and lower turnaround costs compared to the fourth quarter of 2023. The adjusted EBITDA margin for the fourth quarter was 36%, up 210 basis points compared to the year-ago quarter. For our advanced materials and catalyst segment, sales for advanced silicas was $33 million in the fourth quarter, up 5% -over-year, on higher sales of advanced silicas used for the production of polyethylene, as well as higher sales of niche custom catalysts. Sales from the Zealist joint venture were down principally due to the timing of hydrocracking catalyst sales. Adjusted EBITDA for the advanced materials and catalyst segment was $28 million, up modestly compared to the fourth quarter of 2023, as higher sales of advanced silicas, favorable absorption of fixed cost, and the benefit of cost reduction action taken in 2024 largely offset the lower overall sales volume within the Zealist joint venture. As we move to our discussion on cash and leverage, cash generation remained positive in the fourth quarter, leading to a full-year adjusted free cash flow of over $85 million, up $13 million compared to 2023. The higher cash generation was driven by higher dividends from the Zealist joint venture and favorable changes in working capital, partially offset by higher capital expenditures specifically for the ongoing growth capital projects for expansion of polyethylene catalyst capacity in our Kansas City facility and the Chem 32 catalyst activation expansion. We ended the year with approximately $146 million of cash, and our available liquidity was $221 million, including availability under our ABL facility. In light of our positive cash generation, our net debt leverage ratio was three times at year end. With continued positive cash generation expected in 2025 and assuming no discretionary uses of cash, we anticipate making significant progress towards our target net debt leverage ratio of 2 to 2.5 times. I will conclude with a discussion on our outlook for 2025. As Kurt noted, although we foresee relative stability in many of our core businesses as we move into 2025, we remain cautious about the near-term outlook for global macroeconomic activity. This cautious outlook is factored into our guidance for the year. For 2025, we expect our gap sales to be in the range of $755 to $815 million. Relative to 2024, this outlook includes an estimated $35 million of higher anticipated pricing related to the pass-through effect of higher sulfur costs in 2025. Sales for our proportionate 50 percent share in the ZList Joint Venture are projected to be in the $115 to $130 million range. As a result, we expect total sales, including our proportionate share of the ZList Joint Venture sales, to be $870 to $945 million. We anticipate growth for eco-services in 2025 driven by favorable contract pricing and higher volume. Excluding the expected $35 million sulfur cost pass-through impact, our anticipated base growth would be in the mid-single digits. However, taking into consideration the pass-through effect of the higher sulfur costs, we project sales for eco-services to be up on a low double-digit percentage basis. For advanced materials and catalysts, we expect our sales of polyethylene catalysts to continue to outpace global demand growth, and we believe that there will be continued traction and higher sales of advanced silicates for biocatalysis applications this year. As a result, we project advanced silica sales to be up in the low double-digit percentage basis compared to 2024. Within the ZList Joint Venture, we expect a stronger year for hydrocracking catalyst sales, albeit not at the peak level we saw in 2023. For catalyst sales and the sustainable fuel applications, we remain cautious and projected sales growth to be flat to slightly up in 2025. Overall, we anticipate the ZList Joint Venture sales to be up on a mid-single digit percentage basis. We anticipate adjusted EBITDA to be in the range of $238 to $258 million, which is up 4% at the midpoint of the range compared to 2024. In terms of segment results, we anticipate eco-services adjusted EBITDA to be up on a mid-single digit percentage basis within a range of $204 to $220 million. For advanced materials and catalysts, we projected adjusted EBITDA to be up on a mid-single digit percentage basis in the range of $65 to $71 million. Noting, as we have previously discussed, sales of certain products within the advanced materials and catalyst segment can be lumpy, as they are often large, event-driven sales. We also expect our earnings to be more heavily weighted toward the second half of the year, similar to last year, driven by the timing of hydrocracking and custom specialty catalyst sales. We expect corporate costs to be approximately $32 million in 2025. Capital expenditures are anticipated to be in the range of $80 to $90 million for the year, reflecting incremental investment this year as we expect to complete the polyethylene catalyst capacity expansion at our Kansas City site by year end, and our ongoing activity to expand our catalyst activation capacity at Chem 32. As a result, we project adjusted free cash flow for 2025 to be in the range of $60 to $80 million. For interest expense, considering the interest rate caps we have in place covering approximately 75% of our exposure, as well as the recent repricing of our term loan, we expect interest expense to be in the range of $47 to $53 million for 2025. In terms of specific guidance for the first quarter of 2025, we project first quarter adjusted EBITDA for eco-services to be between $29 and $34 million. While the first quarter is historically the lowest adjusted EBITDA quarter, the lower than typical adjusted EBITDA for the first quarter of 2025 is expected to be driven by the timing of turnaround spending, planned customer turnarounds, and the absorption of fixed costs. We plan to execute more than 50% of our annualized turnaround costs in the first quarter as we conduct maintenance to coincide with customer turnarounds. We also anticipate lower volumes within virgin sulfuric acid and treatment services in the first quarter, which are expected to be stronger in the second part of the year as we complete our turnarounds, taking advantage of the anticipated higher incremental sulfuric acid demand that Kirk mentioned earlier, and also through the timing of contractual pass-through of certain costs, including energy and other index costs. For advanced materials and catalysts, similar to the prior year, we expect a lighter first quarter based on customer order timing, more typical second and third quarters, and a strong fourth quarter driven by the timing of certain product sales within the segment, particularly around hydrocracking and custom specialty catalysts. Therefore, we project adjusted EBITDA to be between $3 and $8 million for the first quarter. Assuming unallocated corporate expense of approximately $8 million, we expect consolidated adjusted EBITDA for the first quarter to be between $24 million and $34 million. I'll now turn the call back to Kirk for some closing remarks. Thank you, Mike. In retrospect, the global macroeconomic environment remained challenging in 2024, and we experienced a revision of our near-term expectations for our sales into the production of sustainable fuels. However, many of our core and industrial businesses continued to exhibit resilience, performing well in 2024. Our regeneration services business delivered on its growth objectives, and we saw stability in many of our industrial businesses, including virgin sulfuric acid and our sales of advanced silicons into the production of polyethylene. Moreover, we continued to make significant progress in the advancement of key technologies that we believe will provide for compelling future growth. These include technologies that support the production of sustainable aviation fuel, catalysts that significantly improve the efficiency of advanced recycling, and technologies that expand biocatalysis and carbon capture applications. I want to thank all of my EcoVis colleagues for their significant contributions in 2024 and for their continued enthusiasm and engagement as we continue to deliver on our growth and strategic objectives in 2025 and beyond. EcoVis remains intently focused on executing our strategy that we laid out in November of 2023 at our Investor Day. We are focused on capturing growth through enhanced reliability, bottlenecking, and organic expansions across our core and industrial businesses and leaning into the favorable trends in the emerging segments. Earlier, I spoke about our investments and enthusiasm in our emerging applications, where we have created dedicated marketing teams to work with our innovative customers and resource pilot production capabilities for biocatalysis and advanced recycling in the last 12 months. We also continue to scan for inorganic opportunities that could enable volume growth in our core or adjacent end uses or add technologies that enhance our emerging product portfolio. In December, we announced that the EcoVis Board of Directors has launched a strategic review of our advanced materials and catalyst business, and we currently expect to complete this review in the middle of 2025. The company doesn't intend to make any further public comments regarding the strategic review until it has been completed or the company determines that disclosure is required or beneficial. As we move into 2025, the macroeconomic environment and potential impact of geopolitical factors remain uncertain. Broad implementation of tariffs could result in disruption throughout global supply chains. However, we remain confident in the resilient performance of our core and industrial businesses, and we are planning for growth in 2025, and we will maintain our focus on capturing future growth opportunities as we remain committed to delivering compelling value for our shareholders. At this time, I will ask the operator to open the line for questions.

At this time, if you would like to ask a question, please press the star and one on your telephone keypad. You may remove yourself from the queue at any time by pressing star two. Once again, to ask a question that is star one. We'll take our first question from Patrick Cunningham with Citi. Your line is open.

Good morning. Just maybe first starting off on the one-queue guide, can you help us frame what this means from a volume decline perspective across each business? How much financial impact do you have just from the cost of your own turnarounds? And is there anything to call out in terms of sort of the timing of price costs on the Virgin Sulfuric side, which is maybe a further drag here?

Yeah, good morning. Thanks for the question. From a perspective of size, the turnaround costs that we're incurring are a few million dollars of an impact, and the turnaround costs from our customers would be another few million dollars. And then in addition, the rest of the components are made up of the timing of some of our fixed cost absorption related to our inventory timing, as well as the timing on Virgin Sulfuric acid that Kurt had mentioned earlier.

Very helpful. And then just on some of the near-term weakness you cited, specifically on polyethylene demands, I think we're hearing somewhat stable demand increases for PE in North America. I'm just trying to understand, is this thing not improving as much as you see in the overall market from low levels? Is there anything to call out specifically in terms of your order patterns?

Yeah, I think, Patrick, I think what we see is that there's still obviously some overcapacity in certain markets like Asia. I think in our case, though, we would agree with what you said about North America and Middle Eastern customers benefiting from their energy position. And in terms of our order timing, it's really more just order timing, right? So our customers did in fourth quarter, I'd say, built up stock in first quarter. It's just going to be a lighter ordering pattern, and we expect that to pick up in the second half. So we do, as Mike said on the call, we do expect our advanced silica business to be up year over year.

Very helpful. Thank you.

We'll take our next question from Alexei Yefremov with KeyBank. Your line is open.

Thanks. Good morning, everyone. I appreciate you providing a lot of details on KeyOne guidance, but sort of stepping back, looking at overall EBITDA, as you expect in KeyOne, I think this would be a record low for the company as far as my model goes, probably 2016 or so. For the total company and for each of the segments. I guess, is there anything from a broader historical perspective that you think led to this result? Any of your businesses are just not as good as they used to be, perhaps, or just the severity of these temporary issues is so unusual, and it would be helpful to make a quantify in that case.

Yeah, I'll take the first part and maybe just talk about the qualitative aspects of the business. So I think from a regeneration standpoint, we have turnarounds going on in our plants from a broader first half perspective. I mean, we're expecting to take four of our five turnarounds in the first half of the year to really coincide with the stepped up refinery turnaround activity, which is quite normal. It's just this year that there happens to be a greater amount. We do expect that regeneration is going to be good this year. The factors that surround that business remain positive in terms of gasoline and more importantly, alkaline unit utilization. Virgin sulfuric acid, we expect a good year in virgin sulfuric acid, although the ramp is going to be more in the second half. And that's somewhat related as well to the production on our side. We have four of our five turnarounds happening in the beginning of the year. I will note we do have new customer demand starting in the second half as well with the new mining project, expansions of battery plants that are going to kick in, as well as our nylon precursor segment is forecasting higher rates. And we expect higher orders for their business in the second half of the year, which will spill over to higher demand for us. So in terms of the bones of the business remain solid. This is more really a timing issue. So, Mike, you can comment on some of those financials. Yeah, I mean, I just echo Kurt's comment. I mean, this is not this is not an unexpected or anything that we feel concerned about. It's a lot of timing that we just went through on the eco services side. And similarly for the advanced materials and catalyst side that business, as we've talked about every year and every quarter is very lumpy. Right. There are a lot of event driven types of orders, whether it's the hydro cracking catalyst or the specialty custom catalyst. And it's just the timing of those orders when they come through. So it's not a concern for us. It is definitely a low quarter. Alexi from a historic standpoint. But again, if you go back and look historically, you've seen some big movements quarter over quarter, including last year when we did have a heavier second half for AM and C and then we delivered that right at the end of the year. Right. So we're we're confident that we're still going to be able to deliver our results that we provided. This the key one is purely a timing aspect for a variety of the different items that we talked about cost side on on ego, primarily along with the timing for the customers and then the order book in the AMC business.

Thanks a lot. The follow up, I think you've guided into about 35 million off sorry, 45 million of net sales increase, including the past through excluding the past through EBITDA is projected to go up 10 million. This just strikes me as somewhat low incremental margins. Given how high your margins typically are, could you just give us a comment? Maybe a walk for for that sales versus EBITDA bridge in the United States?

Yeah, I think the year first point about the sulfur impact, right. So that is a margin impact from a negative standpoint. But again, the sulfur past through does not impact or even it just inflate the top line. So that is certainly a component of it. There's also a mixed component, primarily in the AMC business where you do have some of our sales for hydrocracking in particular are not as highly profitable as a sustainable fuels that we've talked about in the past. So there is a dynamic from a mixed standpoint as well. We did talk about higher costs overall for FMC turnaround cost just as they start to go up. However, we are increasing our sales pricing as well to commiserate for that. That difference. So it's a little bit of the sulfur impact and then the mix effect as well.

Thanks a lot.

Our next question comes from David with Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.

Thank you. Good morning, Kurt. On the strategic review, can you at least discuss why the board decided now to do this review on this business?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, obviously, we view the AMC business as a great business. It's got a lot of really good core businesses around it. Hydrocracking, polyethylene as well as the emerging technologies that we walk through, biocatalysis and such. And the board's really just looking to see how we can maximize shareholder value and are there alternate ways to do that other than its current setup, right? So that's really what we're looking at is, you know, we view that business as a high value business, stable in terms of its core businesses as well as some great emerging opportunities. And is there a way to further create shareholder value with a different setup?

Understood. And just in a full year guide, at the low end, you're forecasting no growth. So what would need to happen for ECOBITS not to grow EBITDA in 2025?

Yeah, I think it's, you know, some of that is always our order timing on the catalyst side. David, as you know, we have large hydrocracking orders and large other custom catalyst orders that can be, you know, some case in the world, $10 million per order type thing. So some of it's based on the timing of that. So not necessarily a miss on the actual capturing of the sale, but, you know, the timing of where it lands. And the other part of the guide is really, is there any, you know, economic disruption that comes from the current environment that we live in today in terms of the uncertainty, you know, surrounding tariffs or other geopolitical issues that are floating out there. But, you know, we look at, you know, if you look at the base core of the businesses again, you know, ECO services regeneration, we expect to be strong, albeit the first half is, you know, lighter just because of the customer turnaround activity, which is, you know, just they have to take turnarounds. It's the nature of the business. Virgin Acid, we expect to be firm this year. I will point out, the question came up earlier. You know, pricing is not a drag on Virgin Acid right now, but, you know, the market, you know, is generally, is remained solid. And then our core businesses, you know, again, with the catalysts across polyethylene and hydrocracking, a lot of that's really timing based.

Thank you.

Our next question comes from Hamad Korsent with BWS Financial. Your line is open.

Hi, I'm sorry, I'm going to beat the dead horse here, but could you just talk about this timing issue, specific just to the zealous really, not hydrocracking. Why has this continued to be the case? I think this is now like the second or third quarter that you're bringing this up.

Yeah, good morning. Good morning, Hamad. You know, it's, I would probably say that we bring it up a lot. The timing around the ZI Joint Venture and the customer orders there has been in existence since we, since I've been with the company a long time ago. So the orders are often, you know, for hydrocracking in particular are usually three to four years from when they do a fixed bed change out. And those timing of when those orders come through can really vary in a couple different months, right? So you can have a large order that could be 15, 20 million dollars that hits in December 31st or could go to January 1st. And a lot of it has to do with the timing of when they're shipped and delivered to the customer. Same thing for the specialty catalyst. Those are very lumpy event driven businesses. So they could have orders that happen every four or five, even six years with some of the different customers. So sometimes it's a timing item within the customer order booking and all the time it's just when those orders are placed every few years.

Okay. And then as far as your emerging technologies goes, you've talked about different products and solutions being available right around 25. Is that still a case for this year? Are you still expecting sales from those emerging technologies this year?

Yeah, as we talked about in the call, yes, we are, you know, the bio catalysis has seemingly having some good uptick with customer interest in terms of that, you know, just bio catalysis as an industry is growing very, very rapidly. And we're getting great feedback from customers testing our products in terms of the silica's supports for those. So, you know, we have good confidence in that advanced recycling is the other one I'll point you to where we've had some really good feedback from customer trials. Those advanced recycling plants are in a process of being constructed. And, you know, we expect those sales really to kind of start hitting in late 2025 and into 2026 and continuing thereafter as those as those plants get built. So we're we're happy and largely on track. We're we think those emerging technologies and we're very pleased with the feedback that we're getting from the customers who were pilot testing the product.

Okay, thank you.

Our next question comes from Lawrence Alexander with Jeffries. Your line is open.

Good morning. Firstly, on AMC, can you give a sense for what percentage of sales or EBITDA is tied to the heavy duty and sustainable jet fuel categories? Those are like what you call out as being a subpar longer term outlooks.

Yeah, we haven't really given any specific, you know, ranges of the size of that business. Again, part of it has to do with the timing of the orders, right? The hydrocracking is the largest component of the zealous joint venture. The second one really is probably the custom and specialty catalysts, which can vary year on year and then really sustainable fuels or the renewable diesel as well as the emission control, you know, is really the next the next size one. So it's we've talked about the sustainable fuels before being around 10% of the overall AM and C sales. So, you know, roughly it's probably in that range or a little below that, just given the decline from last year. Yeah, I think we expect it just in terms of sustainable fuels. I think we, you know, in the call we had said we do expect it to be flattish to potentially slightly up this year. So as opposed to last year where it obviously had a steeper decline and, you know, long term, we have, you know, we believe that that business will continue to grow. Maybe not the same rate of change as it did when it started in 2019 because, you know, there's still a need to decarbonize heavy duty diesel vehicles and then sustainable aviation fuel has, you know, you have airlines in the US that still have, you know, 10% blending targets for 2030 as well as the EU that has, you know, in 2025 now has a blending mandate in place of 2%. So there still is a need for those fuels there and we expect them to grow long term.

And can you give an update on your thinking on how what the trade offs are about around keeping or exiting the zeolite JV?

Yeah, well, we've been a part of the zeolite JV that has been in existence now for 37 years and was really formed around our, you know, expertise regarding the zeolites and their, you know, the key as being a key intermediate to the hydrocracking catalyst. You know, since the inception of the JV, that joint venture has expanded into, you know, multi different dimensions in terms of gone to sustainable fuels, custom catalysts, emission control. So it's grown, you know, quite substantially and grown in different areas. And now we are, you know, growing into the advanced recycling area. So it's not a it's not a, you know, one dimensional JV like a lot of them are that are geographically or product centric. This one has grown in both part both parties in the JV have been willing to invest in it over time. So, you know, we don't be considered that they'll we will continue to operate that way into the future.

And then lastly, around the timing issues, just to be clear, is your outlook range tied to like a normal level of timing or lumpiness? Or did you factor in some degree of assume that the timing continues to go against you at the same rate as it has the last several quarters?

Now, I think the timing is just relative. Right. And typical for what we expect. I mean, those those orders can be positive and negative depending on, you know, when certain things come into into the fold from a customer standpoint and shipping standpoint. So it's it's within a relative range. And I think on the ecosystem side, too, you know, we have very good visibility to our customer turnaround times, you know, that, you know, sometimes two and three years out. And that's why we're able to plan our own maintenance outages around them. So we have pretty good visibility into where those are going to land. It just so happens this year is a heavier period in the first half of the year. And it's kind of concentrated up between our maintenance and their maintenance into the first half.

OK, thank you.

Our next question comes from John McFelty with BMO Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Hi, this is Caleb on for John. So I know we've talked a lot about the impact of the turnarounds and the order timing in first half. But is it fair to say that the first half should kind of be within the normal range of seasonality where it's like 40 to 45 percent of your full year or is it going to be significantly less than that?

Yeah, good morning, Caleb. Good question. So I give you the direction that for the eco services side, it's roughly a 40 60 split. Right. So roughly 40 percent of the earnings would come around in the first half and 60 percent in the second half. And a lot of that is related to the topics that we talked about from the turnarounds and timing items for the AMC business. It's more like a 30 70 split. So again, if you go back and look at last year, it's not too dissimilar, right, with, you know, again, some of those timings of when the sales are coming through and when our expectations for those are. So those would be the splits for the two businesses.

Gotcha. OK. But with Q1 EBITDA, I'd like the midpoint to be like 11 percent for the full year guide. That's implying that Q2 is almost is at least like double Q1. I'm trying to make a reconcile.

Now, that's right, Caleb. And I think again, it's not too dissimilar from what our expectations are. I mean, you've seen before for eco services, they typically have more of a bell curve where Q1 and Q4 are usually lower and Q2 and Q3 are stronger. Right. So with Q1 being artificially lower for the reasons we talked about, that would show a significant increase in the second quarter. And then again, for the AMC business, you know, that can have significant swings quarter on quarter because of timing of the hydrocracking and specialty catalyst and other items, custom catalysts that that we have.

OK, thanks for the call.

Our next question comes from David Silver with CL King. Your line is open.

Yeah. Hi. Thank you. You know, I did want to just ask you for a little bit more color on your capex budget, eighty to ninety million dollars this year. If I have it right, I think maybe five, six million dollars of that is money that might have been budgeted for, you know, twenty, twenty four, but kind of is slipping. But just in general, I mean, if you were to kind of if you could put the capex in but in buckets, maybe how much is sustaining and then is the balance of non-sustaining spending all in the Kansas City and Chem Thirty two expansions or are there some other discretionary items that that you might call out? Thank you.

Yeah, David, thanks for the question. You are correct. There was probably about five or six million, as you mentioned, that that rolled into this year. The increase from last year to this year is all growth driven. Right. So it's all related to either. And the predominant is the expansions in Kansas City under the AMC group, as well as some spending in the Chem Thirty two catalyst activation business that's under eco services. There's probably a few other million dollars here and there for cost reduction projects and other smaller projects that are growth based. And again, the way we look at our our capital allocation strategy really is that first dollar that goes back into the business will give us the best return. You know, since we know we can control it and we believe that we have a good return on those projects. So that's where the money is going to be spent for next year.

OK, very good. And then apologies in advance. This might sound a little wonky, but I did want to go back to the impairment charge. And I, you know, I did read your description of it pretty carefully. I mean, in general, I think there's maybe three general, you know, events or circumstances that might trigger the impairment. And in your explanation, you know, it is clear what you're saying, but, you know, it seems like, you know, maybe you're citing the ultimate or the proximate cause of it was a transaction back in 2016. You know, but then you also cite some relatively modest portions of your current business mix. And I don't know if I'm juggling things or apples to oranges there, but, you know, if the original, I don't know, if the original accounting was different or if your stock price was at a different level. I mean, you know, would you still be taking that impairment charge, maybe just a tiny bit more color on the genesis and and, you know, the thinking behind that? Thank you.

Yeah, certainly, David, and it's a good it's a good summary and a good question. You're absolutely right that the original investment in our deal is joint venture was increased or stepped up years ago related to business combinations. Right? So the purchase accounting increased it back then at the then fair value calculation, you know, to your point, what what was done back then was done with the information at that time. What we've done now, given some of the current focus, particularly around sustainable fuels and emission control and the demand that we saw there and the decrease in our earnings from last year led to a reduction of that original step up. Right? So it was only a portion of that original step up that was reduced. Right? So the original investment that we had in the deal is joint venture, you know, is not adjusted. It's just the step up from the business combination from years ago that was reduced related to this. So hopefully that helps add some clarity. It's a non cash accounting journal entry, you know, for the impairment of the investment that we have in that in the joint venture.

OK, I appreciate that. I hope I can just squeeze in a quick one here. But, you know, sulfur prices are rising and, you know, you've talked about this from a couple of angles and I apologize. But if you could just clarify, is there what is the lead or lag on passing through, you know, meaningful increases in sulfur costs? In other words, is that part of maybe the sluggishness in the first quarter results that you'll recoup by the second quarter? You know, just or should we just ignore the pretty significant sequential rise in sulfur costs here? Thank you.

Yeah, no, good question, David. I think, you know, just the sulfur costs, you know, actually kind of demonstrate what we're talking about in terms of the refining turnaround. So the reason sulfur costs generally rise is less sulfur coming out of refineries. So that's the, you know, one of the reasons we talked about there being a lot of customer refining turnaround activity here in the first half of the year. So that's one reason that sulfur prices have risen. That and I think there's the improved outlook, you know, for agricultural purposes as well. So the prices had a jump here in the first quarter, as you pointed out. In terms of the lag, we do pass it through mostly, you know, mostly in the same quarter, although there are some there is some lag there. But that's not I wouldn't say that's a really material drag on our first quarter numbers. Most of it again has to go back into, you know, lower volumes from us because of turnaround activity, lower, you know, lower activity from our customers due to their turnarounds. But, you know, nothing in terms of we don't see a significant deterioration in any of the facets of the business in terms of regeneration still looks good. We think we'll have a solid year, particularly in the second half of some of these new customers start up.

Okay, great. I appreciate it. Thanks very much.

It appears we have no further questions at this time. I'll turn the program back to the speakers for any additional or closing remarks.

Oh, that's it. I would no further questions. We appreciate everybody's interest and thoughtful questions and we'll conclude the call.

Thank you. This does include the EcoVist fourth quarter 2024 earnings call and webcast. Thank you for your participation and you may disconnect at any time.