Franklin BSP Realty Trust, Inc.

Good day and welcome to the Franklin BSP Realty Trust Second Quarter 2025 Earnings Conference Call. All participants will be in listen-only mode. If you need assistance, please signal the conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To ask a question, you may press star, then one on a touch-tone phone. To withdraw your question, please press star, then two. Please note this event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to Lindsay Crabb, Director Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Good morning. Thank you for hosting our call today and welcome to the Franklin BSP Realty Trust Second Quarter Earnings Conference Call. As the operator mentioned, I'm Lindsay Crabb. With me on the call today are Richard Byrne, Chairman and CEO of FBRT, Jerry Baglian, Chief Financial Officer and Chief Operating Officer of FBRT and Mike Comperato, President of FBRT. Before we begin, I want to mention that some of today's comments are forward-looking statements and are based on certain assumptions. Those comments and assumptions are subject to inherent risks and uncertainties, as described in our most recently filed SEC Periodic Reports, and actual future results may differ materially. The information conveyed on this call is current only as of the date of this call, July 31, 2025. We assume no obligation to update any statements made during this call, including any forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise, except as required by law. Additionally, we will refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures, which are reconciled to GAAP figures in our earnings release and supplementary slide deck, each of which are available on our website at .fbrtreet.com. We will refer to this slide deck on today's call. With that, I'll turn the call over to Richburn.

Great, thanks, Lindsay, and good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. But before we begin, I just want to take a moment on behalf of our entire team to express our deepest sympathy for those affected this week by the tragic events at 345 Park Avenue. This hit very close to home. Our thoughts are with the victims, their families, and all those affected. Now we'll begin today's call on slide four by reviewing our second quarter results, and then we'll open the call up to your questions, as always. I'll begin with key developments from the second quarter. Jerry will walk through our financial results, and he'll provide details on our successful closing of the New Point acquisition. Then Mike will update you on market conditions, our watch list, and our EO activity. We selectively originated 61 million in new loan commitments this quarter, primarily in multifamily assets. Our originations were deliberately lower this quarter as we maintained a higher cash balance ahead of our July 1st New Point closing. We received 317 million in loan repayments in the second quarter across four different property types. This continues to be an encouraging trend, and one that we are well positioned to capitalize on moving into the back half of 2025. As we redeploy these funds into new loans and more attractive credit metrics, it will clearly benefit us. Our portfolio of post-interest rate hike loan originations was 56% of our portfolio at quarter end, and meaningfully ahead of our peers. This reflects how active we have been in the market over the past two and a half years. Distributable earnings were 27 cents per fully converted share. We believe there is a clear path to growing this to a level that supports our dividend. Jerry will lay this out in detail momentarily. Our average risk rating at quarter end was 2.3, with 137 of 145 positions risk rated two or three. And our watch list loans represent only 5% of our total portfolio. We also made significant progress on our REO portfolio this quarter. Our acknowledge and address mindset has not changed. We sold three multifamily assets totaling 56 million, which in aggregate was above our principal basis at the time of foreclosure. These results reinforce our strategy of being selective and patient in managing REO to maximize our recoveries. Since the new point acquisition closed on July 1st, I'll speak to our liquidity position excluding the cash that was paid at closing. Liquidity then was, or now is 501 million, including 77 million in unrestricted cash, with significant capacity remaining on our warehouse lines and through CLO reinvestment. Acquiring new point is a significant milestone for us. It expands our platform within our core competency multifamily lending. The transaction brings significant synergies to FBRT, including scaled origination and servicing capabilities, which will significantly increase our addressable market. It also adds a fully integrated mortgage servicing platform, which enhances income stability and provides an immediate avenue for recurring book value per share growth. We are confident new point will be a long-term driver of both earnings power and book value creation. Looking at long-term performance, FBRT has delivered economic returns to find this change in book value plus dividends paid of .6% and .9% over the past 12 months and 24 months respectively. This places us at the very top of our peer group. We believe these results reflect our disciplined credit decisions and very thoughtful capital management. Before handing it over to Jerry and Mike, I wanna briefly address our stock valuation. Our stock continues to trade at a steep discount to book value. We suspect the market is focused on three key concerns, our current dividend coverage, the quality of the assets in our legacy portfolio, and our recent acquisition of new point. We have provided additional details in our earning supplement deck to address each of these areas with greater transparency. In addition, Mike and Jerry will also cover these topics in their remarks, which you'll hear right now. With that, Jerry, I'll pass things over to you.

Great, thanks Rich. I appreciate everyone being on the call today. I'm gonna walk through our second quarter financial results and that's gonna begin on slide seven. FBRT reported gap earnings of 24.4 million or 21 cents for fully converted common share. Distributable earnings for the quarter was 29 million or 27 cents for fully converted share. Our board determined it was appropriate to maintain the second quarter dividend at the current level of 35 and a half cents. We believe there are three key drivers to get us to dividend coverage. First, we plan to call several CLOs that are now past their reinvestment periods and are no longer providing optimal leverage. We believe this will generate approximately four to six cents per share quarterly by creating liquidity and freeing up equity in those CLOs for us to reinvest. Second, we expect to reinvest the equity currently allocated to our REO portfolio and REO financings. As we continue to sell assets and recycle that capital into new originations, we estimate this could contribute approximately eight to 12 cents per share per quarter to distributable earnings. Third, and lastly, we expect the contribution from Newpoint to grow meaningfully over time. Once it begins to reach scale on origination volume, BSP loan servicing is integrated, and we realize the cost savings from the platform synergies, we believe Newpoint can deliver an 8% ROE or better, and that would generate approximately eight cents per share in quarterly earnings contribution. Over a longer period of time, we estimate Newpoint can generate low teens ROE. That is just the direct impact for Newpoint. There are many other intangible benefits, including increased deal flow for balance sheet loans and enhanced customer relationships, potential deal flow in our CNBS business, and a much larger real estate team that we can leverage both operationally and strategically to manage our business. Now, while the exact timing of these contributions is a little difficult to pinpoint, through these three paths, there are collective incremental distributable earnings of 16 cents to 26 cents per share per quarter. Our book value ended the quarter at $14.82 per fully converted share. I'm gonna move on now to slide 11. You can see our average cost of debt on our core portfolio is SOFR plus 2.3%. 77% of our financing continues to come from CLOs with reinvestment capacity available in one of those transactions. As I mentioned before, several of our CLOs are now past their reinvestment periods and advanced rates are no longer optimized because of loan repayments. Assuming market conditions remain favorable, we plan to call these CLOs and releverage these assets to unlock that liquidity, likely through a combination of bank debt and new CLO issuance. This will allow us to ramp up originations and grow our loan look. Our net leverage position was lower this quarter at 2.2 times, with recourse leverage standing at 0.3 times. Finally, I wanna reiterate our excitement around the closing of the Newpoint acquisition. We've already begun integration work and we filed historical financials yesterday evening. Pro-forma financials will be filed shortly. A few things I'd like to highlight about Newpoint are, in 2025, we expect four to five billion in agency FHA volume. Year to date, Newpoint has already closed 1.9 billion in agency and FHA volume, and we are expecting solid volume of Q3. We expect gap net income to be between 23 and 27 million and distributable earnings to be between 13 and 17 million for all of 2025. We included estimates for 2026 in our supplemental deck. Newpoint's earnings contribution to FBRT should grow meaningfully over time as their income is directly correlated to the cumulative agency and FHA origination volume and the servicing portfolio. As of June 30th, Newpoint's MSR portfolio was valued at approximately $217 million with an implied life of 6.8 years. Migration of the servicing of BSP loans started in the third quarter. We expect to be fully migrated by the first quarter of 2026. The full migration at FBRT's loan servicing book represents several million dollars of savings coupled with several million in additional and incremental float on the balances that we will hold. We expect Newpoint to be accreted from a gap earnings and book value per share standpoint in the first half of 2026 and accreted to distributable earnings in the second half of 2026. With that, I'll turn it over to Mike to give you an update on our portfolio.

Thanks, Jerry, and good morning, everyone. I'm gonna start on slide 16. Our core portfolio ended the quarter at 4.5 billion across 145 loans with multifamily making up 74%. In today's market, generating strong credit returns takes more than capital, it takes a broad product offering. While spreads have compressed, we still see attractive opportunities. BSP continues to stand out as a flexible and consistent lender in the market with the ability to structure loans that meet our risk return profile while staying primarily in the senior portion of the capital stack. Before turning to our asset performance, I wanted to spend a little time on the broader CRE market. For the last few years, borrowers and lenders have tried to wait out market dislocation, hoping rate cuts and better days would arrive. To date, they haven't. What's next is likely a period of acceptance. Debt funds, mortgage rates, banks, and life companies will need to mark loans appropriately and move capital. That reset is what brings healthy market functionality back and we welcome it. We're also watching long-term rates settle into a higher range. Treasury issuance isn't slowing and we still expect Fed cuts later this year. If we do see a more dovish Fed share in 2026, we should see a steepening yield curve resulting in more demand for shorter duration credit. The 10-year US Treasury has always been the benchmark of the CRE credit space and it's been the benchmark for decades. Unless there is a three-handle on the 10-year, expect five-year and shorter duration loans to dominate the sector. Additionally, there's no shortage of capital in the market today. Credit markets are flush with liquidity and there's a tremendous amount of equity on the sidelines ready to step in once assets start to clear. On the property side, multifamily fundamentals are improving. New supply is slowing and slowing meaningfully, concessions are burning off, and in certain markets, rent growth is reemerging, especially in newer, higher quality assets. Legacy 1970s and 1980s vintage stock will lag in a recovery, but strong assets and strong markets are beginning to see positive momentum. We're also seeing healthy pricing signals. Cap rate tiering is back with real differentiation based on asset quality and market strength. That has been painful for buyers that closed acquisitions in late 2021, early 2022, but it's ultimately the correct dynamic, one that supports more rational equity investing and lending. Moving on to FBRT's portfolio, let's look at slide 18. Today, we are down to 44% of our loan commitments, consisting of loans originated before the interest rate heights. The majority of this collateral is multifamily, representing 1.7 billion or 79%, followed by hospitality and 196 million or 9%. 89% of these legacy loans are risk rated at two or three, with a vast majority scheduled to mature by the end of 2026. We've addressed the positions currently requiring attention, and those are reflected on our watch list. Notably, total office exposure when adjusting for our net lease headquarter asset and prior quarter write downs is only 105 million, .2% of total assets, not just legacy assets. That exposure is spread across four loans with an average loan size just under 18 million, a weighted average of $56 per square foot, and two REO assets, one of which is currently under contract. Slide 20 summarizes our watch list. Our watch list includes eight positions. We continue to actively manage each, and borrower engagement remains high. Within our positions, one is a Georgia office building that was extended in January with a principal pay down and has remained current on payments. The borrower on the 307 unit student housing property in Norfolk, Virginia is looking to liquidate the asset within the next three to six months. We added a Phoenix office building with a $13.5 million loan this quarter following the government lease termination. The borrower is currently marketing that asset for sale. The other watch list loans are multifamily deals from 2021 and 2022 that are behind on Business Plan. We're in active dialogue with those borrowers, and one of the loans is under contract to be sold at par with a meaningful non-refundable deposit, and we expect that sale to close imminently. While the watch list count ticked up slightly, requests for modifications continue to slow, which is another sign that FBRT is in the later earnings of this cycle, specifically because we have been proactively addressing underperforming assets for years. Slide 21 covers our full closure REO portfolio. Over the past two years, we've taken 19 properties into REO, totaling roughly $560 million in UPB. 10 of those have been sold for $270 million in the aggregate above our principal balance at the time of foreclosure, including $56 million of sales this quarter. Our remaining nine foreclosure REO positions are 82% multifamily assets and at various stages of stabilization. Most importantly, our largest REO asset, a 472 unit multifamily asset in Raleigh, North Carolina, just achieved 90% occupancy. As with past sales, we'll rely on our asset management team to drive value before bringing them to market. Currently, two REO assets are under contract with another two under letter of intent and more properties are going to market for sale in Q3. Jerry already provided some quantitative feedback on NewPoint. I would add that after 30 days post-closing, my confidence and conviction in the acquisition has only grown. The team is incredibly strong and early collaboration, especially around cross-selling products, has been excellent. We now have more than 300 professionals across 34 states, making us one of the largest middle market platforms in the country. The strategic sit between FBRT and NewPoint is clear. Finally, as Rich noted, our stock continues to trade at a meaningful discount to book value. The market seems to be pricing in substantial unrealized losses in our legacy or pre-rate high portfolio. To put that into context, for our book value to match the current stock price, we would need to recognize approximately 450 million in additional loan losses, 450 million. In current market conditions, that scenario is simply not realistic. In fact, we feel very good about our legacy book. It's 79% multifamily or 1.7 billion. Over the past eight quarters, we have received 1.5 billion in payoffs at par or better on 2021 and 2022 originated multifamily loans, including a $43 million payoff last week. Our multifamily REO sales in the aggregate have been sold above our principal balance at the time of foreclosure. And those liquidations occurred in a tougher market environment than what we face today. We have 196 million of legacy hotel loans with the vast majority performing well and risk rated a two with none on watch list. Lastly, as I already mentioned, we only have 105 million of legacy office exposure. We re-underwrite every loan in this portfolio quarterly and based on current market conditions and recent outcomes on loan payoffs and REO sales, I can say with absolute conviction that losses anywhere near the implied 450 million level are highly, highly unlikely. Losses of that magnitude would suggest that every legacy loan in our portfolio is valued at less than 80 cents on the dollar. Yet in the aggregate, we haven't realized any losses on our legacy multifamily loans or liquidated multifamily REO. And we've received 1.5 billion in payoffs from peak vintage multifamily originations. It is very, very difficult to connect these dots. In short, we believe the current stock price is meaningfully undervalued. With that, I would like to turn it back to the operator and begin the Q&A session.

We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask a question, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. To withdraw your question, please press star then two. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble our roster. The first question is from Matthew Erdner with Jones Trading. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for the question and the comments earlier. So when it comes to the core portfolio, have you guys resumed originations and kind of at what pace since the closing of Newpoint? And then ideally, once these CLOs are collapsed and you can start to get capital recycled, what's the ideal portfolio size to kind of get back to dividend coverage? Thanks.

Hey, Mac, good morning. It's Mike. Thank you for the question. We have turned the treadmill back on. It's gonna start a little bit slow to get the machine running again, but we definitely are going to be picking up originations again. I think you'll see that grow probably quarter over quarter here, as you suggested in conjunction with the calling of the CLOs. But yes, we're back originating and actively looking to deploy that capital. In terms of portfolio size, Jerry, why don't you step in and just talk about a minute what we typically target in terms of portfolio size to maximize dividend coverage.

Yeah, and this is kind of what I talked about in terms of calling the CLO and getting that contribution from some of that locked up equity, if you will, back into productive loan assets. And I see that as a half a billion plus of additional originations that we could put, net originations that we could put on the balance sheet. That puts you at about five billion or so on the core portfolio. I think a range around there obviously depends on the mix of specific assets. And the yield on those assets. But generally that range is more in line with where I think we'd like to be on a long-term basis.

Yeah, that's helpful. And then with these originations, what are you guys seeing in terms of spreads compared to historical, say a year ago?

A year ago, meaningfully tighter. I would say tighter just than 60 days ago. We have seen an absolute deluge of liquidity come into the space. I think not just commercial real estate, kind of all credit sectors. The spread tightening has been very, very aggressive. So I would say, to directly answer the question, Matt, we're probably 100 to 125 tighter on just a fairway multifamily loan versus about a year ago. And I would say you're probably 25 to 50 tighter than just 60 to 90 days ago.

Got it, great, thanks. I'll step back.

The next question is from Randy Binner with B. Riley FBR. Please go ahead.

Hey, thanks. Yeah, this is all super helpful to kind of get the, pull the model, get a model update. So just on the CLOs, I guess the, to the extent that those are called, do those need to be replaced with other debt in the model? Can you just walk us through that piece of it real quick?

Yeah, this is Jerry. Yeah, that's the theory. It's really levering those back up, right? You look at the specific leverage levels of our, FL6, FL7, FL9, you can see those have factored down quite a bit from the original issuance. I think on a normal pool of loans, the CLOs started 75 to 80% advances. You're a decent amount under that if you just look at the collective of all those at this point. So I think you'd wanna reset that back up to, around some range in that starting point, probably not the higher end in this market, but 75% advance, give or take a little bit, at least as far as multi-go, that'd sort of be the target. I think you'd wanna re-level those assets up too. And that obviously then pays up cash to kind of originate more, which was what I was getting at with my other remarks. So yeah, I should assume that you're gonna add a little bit of leverage. And if you look at our net leverage, right, we're down to 2.2 times, I think 2 1 2 3 1 3 quarter times. If you think of that as your additional leverage, that's gonna flow through and solve the kind of that core portfolio target that I just mentioned.

All right, that makes sense. So that's helpful. And then going forward, just two slides, and then I'll go back into queue. But on slide 14, it just talked about the new point guidelines. And I guess the pro forma numbers you're gonna have out, is that today or next week? And just trying to understand kind of initially how to think of that as what those pro formas effectively follow the same guidance here with like a volume, kind of volume and then us just determining kind of a margin off of that. Could you just expand maybe a little bit on how the pro formas are gonna look relative to this slide 14?

Pro forma should be out in the next 24 hours. In terms of how they'll look at this, I think this should actually be more helpful in terms of what the pro forma is showing. I mean, those are just, the pro forma will be helpful in that they will show you the format and the future layout of how our financials are gonna look, but you're not running them in through 2026. So the reason we put in this additional disclosure is to be helpful from a modeling perspective to think about what kind of volume numbers you should run, where kind of we expect that range of end results to possibly be. And this is very much a volume driven business. So I think, how much you originally translate into the growth of the MSR book, the mortgage servicing right book, the yield that you get on that, plus the gain on sale that you have. So I think I would use the pro forma as sort of a guidepost in terms of thinking about how you structure the forward looking combined business. I think it'll be very helpful for that in terms of translating what you see there through the first part of the year into what you expect for the balance of this year and next year. These numbers should be helpful in putting those two pieces together.

Okay, and just one related follow up here. In any GSE privatization scenario or change in how those are operated, it seems like volumes are strong in this channel right now. Is there any scenario where we would throw it off or could it actually help? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Yeah, Randy, this is Mike. I think the important thing, there's a few important things we talked about this previously is, one, they weren't government sponsored previously, they were publicly traded. I don't think it has any impact overall. I do think that almost every administration since they became GSEs has talked about taking them private and or publicly traded again. It's a very, very complicated web to untangle. So I don't know if it does happen or not, obviously,

but

I don't think that it has an overall impact on the business overall. The reality is, this is housing, the federal government is keenly wanting to keep liquidity in the housing sector and it is always going to be the lowest cost of capital anywhere in the commercial real estate sector. So it always has a spot. It should always be the cheapest capital out there and as a result, it's always going to have demand. All right, appreciate it, thank you.

The next question is from Steve Delaney with CitizensJMP. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning, Rich, Mike, Jerry. Nice to be on with you today. Hey, Steve. Wait, hey, a lot of good color on your introductory comments. I'm using a lot more paper on my legal pad now that you've got all these businesses, but the nice thing is it gives you some optionality on allocating capital. So always been a solid story. I think it's gonna be pretty exciting over the next year. So we look forward to it. Mike, you were talking about, for starters, let's just talk about the bridge business. I think that was the segment you were referring to, Adele's huge of liquidity, am I right?

Steve, it's really everywhere. I think you've seen, yeah, it's in the bridge business, of course, but you've seen spreads just tighten kind of everywhere and capital flowing everywhere. I would say most notably in the securitized products market, anything in the CRECLO space, anything in the SASB space on the floating rate places is just oversubscribed

multiple

times at every single tranche. So there is more liquidity in the system today than I think we've seen almost at any point post-COVID.

Wow, wow. Okay, well, I guess people have just been sitting on a lot of cash and they've decided it's time to put money to work and put their investors, you know, this is institutional money. I assume we're talking about primarily looking for new yield.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think the reality is that, you know, I don't wanna call a bottom, that's a pretty dangerous game, but I think most people are looking at the market for CRE saying the damage was done over the past two, two and a half years. If we aren't at the bottom, we're pretty darn close. And so it's pretty comfortable time to be stepping in to kind of credit positions.

Do you think, I mean, the nice thing you have is flexibility of wherever the market shows you opportunities, you can move your focus without ever stepping completely away. But on the bridge business today, when you look at the quality of what you're seeing and the loans that you're committing to, and you roll that back to 2021, 2022, do you think that broadly, whether it's the quality of sponsors, you know, quality of appraisals, is it a better, stronger, more rational market today than the origination, vantages that have created all the problems people are living with now?

Well,

I'm only

gonna speak to the FBRT book, right? Because that's obviously the book I asked and don't wanna speak to people. But when we talk to investors, this has been a focal point. I mean, if you rewind to 2021, what was the vast majority of loans that were going on people's balance, or at least on our balance sheet? It was a lot of 1980s vintage, some 1990s, occasionally some 1970s vintage stuff. So we're talking 30, 40, 50 year old assets. And there was a business plan, right? These business plans were, we're gonna come in, we're gonna put in 10,000, $12,000 a unit, we're gonna put in new appliances, a new countertop, new kitchens and flooring, a coat of paint, we're gonna push rents 200 bucks, and we're gonna sell the thing two or three years later. If you look at what we're putting on our balance sheet today, in large part, it's all high quality, like very new vintage multifamily. I mean, if you just look at the asset level, we're talking brand new assets, five year old assets, there is no business plan, there's no swinging hammers. This is more about a bridge of time than a bridge of adding value at the asset level. It's new construction loans that are getting paid off and just need time to fill. It's borrowers, I mean, the stabilized multifamily loans that we're writing is, I mean, we never saw that stuff four or five years ago. Where people are saying, I'm 94% lease, I don't wanna sell in the current market, I also don't wanna lock in 10 year fixed rate debt with a bunch of call protection in the current market. So I'm gonna bridge this 12, 24, 36 months to what I hope are greener past year. So I would say overall asset quality is head and shoulders better than what asset quality was four or five years ago, and overall credit metrics just from a debt yield, LPV, that standpoint is also markedly better than it was three, four, five years ago.

That's great, Paul. So we're not gonna hear the word heavy transitional very much as much as just a bridge loan being really what a bridge is supposed to be, right? From a temporary to lease up and then get into a permanent financing. That has been

the most popular loan that we've been writing for probably the past two years.

Great, well thank you for everything and congrats on NewPoint and the progress you're making.

The next question is from Tom Catharward with BTIG. Please go ahead. Thanks and

good morning everybody. Maybe starting with NewPoint, it seems to be on a similar origination pace as 24. What does the platform need to ramp origination activity? Is it more capital, larger sourcing network, more infrastructure, how are you approaching that growth?

So it's definitely not more capital. I would say that's one of the top reasons to be in that business is it is incredibly capitalized. I do think as Jerry said in our prepared remarks, we're gonna have a very big third quarter at the NewPoint level, which is fantastic. I think that getting a larger net spread across the country is really what we need to do. We have a very large multifamily book already, eight billion roughly of loans on balance sheet across all of our products. We have our own origination staff at FBRT and BST that are going to be originating into agency. And then the amount of incoming calls that we've had from originators that are looking at the platform saying, wow, you guys have everything. You can do construction loans, bridge loans, mes loans, CMBS, now agency. There are going to be a lot of people that wanna jump on the platform. And I think that that's the primary driver is just expanding that net, adding people. And that should be what drives volume. Obviously it's gonna be tied to interest rates as well, but we don't have any control over that.

Got it, and then maybe sticking with the interest rate comment because that might tie into the next question here. Mike, you talked about transaction markets rebounding as owners seek liquidity and lenders show less willingness to maybe extend and pretend, but that's also been the hope since early middle 24. What do you think finally sparks a sustained recovery in investment sales?

I mean, as we've talked about for several quarters, we're pretty anti-pretend and extend. And we get this question a lot in private conversations. The answer is, I don't think there's going to be a specific catalyst. We're not gonna wake up one day and just something's gonna happen. And everybody says, oh, my office building loan in downtown Chicago at 225 bucks a foot, when the building across the street just sold for 60 is now impaired. They know it, everybody knows it. We're just not marking them. And I think it's just gonna be exhaustion. I said in the prepared remarks, we're just gonna come to the acceptance phase. I just think there's a point where investors and regulators, if we're talking about the banks, obviously the regulators, but investors are gonna say, guys, enough is enough. You originated this loan seven years ago. It's not this, it's not that. There's just a point at which pretend and extend doesn't work anymore. You can only pretend so long, I guess is the short answer. So it just feels like we're coming up, the shock clock is running low on pretend and extend. I'm not sure there's gonna be an aha moment where we wake up one morning and it happens. But I do think once it starts to happen, the wave undoubtedly goes across all of the banks, the mortgage rates, the debt funds, et cetera. And everybody just says it's time to move on.

Appreciate that, Mike. And then one last one for me, Jerry, you mentioned migrating FBRT's loans over to New Points Servicer. Is there savings related to that over time? And are there any loans at parent benefit streets balance sheet level that are also migrating over to the servicer?

Not parent, as in Franklin Templeton, but migrating the book means migrating all the loans that we manage at DSP, which is more than just FBRT. That's the number that Mike was just talking about, 10 billion or so of loans, give or take a little bit. That's what would migrate in. And yes, there's definitely savings. You're cutting out, obviously all the markup that you pay today and picking up all of the entirety of the benefit on the float of all the cash reserves that you hold. So it's really a twofold benefit directly to FBRT in addition to the additional servicing revenue and float from everything else you would move over. So that's why I said it will be a meaningful increase as we roll that in over the next few quarters.

And I assume that's baked into that eight cents per quarter that was mentioned at the outset.

Okay. It is, yeah. That was fully contemplated when we considered the whole transaction as the benefit of adding that infrastructure and being able to roll our own products directly into it.

Got it. Got it. That's it for me. Thanks everyone. Thanks.

The next question is from Jason Stewart with Jani Montgomery Scott. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning. Thanks, Jerry. Thanks for all these numbers. It sounds like you and the team have been busy. Just looking at your ROE disclosure on Newpoint, could you give us a sense of how you break that down between the origination and the servicing business in terms of ROE?

I don't think we have a disclosed breakout of that split anywhere. So I don't know that I can provide the exact specifics between the two. So I don't know that we have that detail even. You can see a little bit of the pro forma once we put that out, you can get a sense of where the income's being driven. But in terms of what we published so far, I don't have that info out there.

Okay, fair enough. And then on ROE, Mike, when we look at incremental originations and where CLO execution is today, is assuming you stop the line on the sand, originate everything in one day and securitize it, what's the marginal ROE on a new CLO gross?

We're still probably achieving a low team ROE on all new origination. So it's, you know, the line I've been using speaking with investors is the returns are still excellent on a nominal basis. They're outstanding on a risk adjusted basis when compared to equity returns. They just aren't euphoric, which they've been for the past two years, right? Everything we've done in the past two years that we've re-originated for the past two years has probably been the best returning credits that we've seen. I also think something that we didn't touch on on the prepared remarks, but very, very different than probably the balance of the industry is we would get a net benefit from decline in SOFR just because of the amount of origination we did over the past two years and having very high SOFR floors on those loans. So for the most part, everybody else stopped originating, exit of the market has been waiting. We put on a few billion dollars of new loans with SOFR floors that aren't achievable today. So while I'm not inviting or not predicting what happens next, we're kind of in a very, very unique spot where even if SOFR does come in, it doesn't hurt us where it would hurt others, it actually benefits us.

Yeah, that's a good point. Your five to minus 100 is plus three, three tonnage. So thanks for that. And then just to follow up on the asset level in multi, given the product transition, do you have a sense for where real-time renewal rates are in multifamily? I mean, we've seen some of the equity rates come out and they're still fairly strong, but that's a pretty high quality product mix. Do you have a sense of where on the margin we are in terms of renewal rates in multi in your book?

I couldn't answer it directly, Jason, on our book. It's obviously gonna fluctuate market to market. We're seeing certain markets much stronger than others, obviously, but I couldn't give you detail within our book on retention. Okay,

all right, cool, thanks. Appreciate taking questions.

This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Lindsay Crabb for any closing remarks.

We appreciate you joining us today. Please reach out if you have any further questions. Thank you and have a great day.

The conference is now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.