Genco Shipping & Trading Ltd

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Genco Shipping and Trading Limited 4th Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call and Presentation. Before we begin, please note that there will be a slide presentation accompanying today's conference call. That presentation can be obtained from the Genco's website at www.gencoshipping.com. To inform everyone, today's conference is being recorded and is now being webcast at the company's website. www.gencoshipping.com. We will conduct a question and answer session after the opening remarks. Instructions will follow at that time. A replay of the conference will be accessible anytime during the next two weeks by dialing 1-877-674-7070 and entering the passcode 373966. At this time, I will now turn the conference over to the company. Please go ahead. Good morning.

Before we begin our presentation, I note that in this conference call, we're making certain forward-looking statements pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such forward-looking statements use words such as anticipate, budget, estimate, expect, project, intend, plan, believe, and other words in terms of similar meaning and connection with a discussion of potential future events, circumstances, or future operating or financial performance. These forward-looking statements are based on management's current expectations and observations. For discussion of factors that could cause results to differ, please see the company's press release that was issued yesterday, the materials relating to this call posted on the company's website, and the company's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including, without limitation, the company's annual report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31st, 2022, and the company's reports on Form 10-Q and Form 8-K subsequently filed with the SEC. At this time, I would like to introduce John Wovensmith, Chief Executive Officer of Drenco Shipping and Trading Limited.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Genco's fourth quarter 2023 conference call. In addition to reviewing our Q4 2023 and year-to-date highlights, we want to use this opportunity to provide an update on the progress we are making three years into our comprehensive value strategy, as well as on the industry's current fundamentals. We will then open up the call for questions. For additional information, please also refer to our earnings presentation posted on our website. Starting on page five, 2023 marked another strong year for Genco. We took concrete steps to drive sustainable long-term value while achieving the top corporate governance rating across 64 public shipping companies for the third consecutive year. We also made progress enhancing the company's ability to thrive through all industry cycles as we executed across the three pillars of our comprehensive value strategy. focused on dividends, deleveraging, and growth. We ended 2023 with our strongest quarter of the year as outlined on slide six. For the fourth quarter, we achieved adjusted net income of 43 cents per share and declared a 41 cents per share dividend representing 173% quarter over quarter increase to the dividend. Complementing the sizable returns we provided shareholders during the quarter, we also continued to de-lever while executing several key strategic growth initiatives. This included increasing our earnings capacity by implementing the next phase of our fleet renewal program. Additionally, we closed on a $500 million revolving credit facility that meaningfully increased our borrowing capacity, reduced margin, extended maturities, and enhanced our ability to take advantage of opportunistic growth. Turning to the fleet, Performance was strong in the fourth quarter and underscores the meaningful operating leverage of Genco's asset base and the importance of our barbell approach to fleet composition. During the quarter, our operating leverage was evident as capesize rates spiked to multi-year highs in December, enabling us to increase Q4 TCE by 44% and achieve our highest TCE of the year at over $17,000 per day. We also generated our lowest cash flow breakeven rate for the year, resulting in significant margin expansion and an increased Q4 dividend, which I mentioned a moment ago. Notably, in the fourth quarter, we once again achieved the time chart equivalent benchmark outperformance and are pleased to have seeded our internal benchmarks for the year by $1,300 per day, while generating adjusted EBITDA of over $100 million. Looking ahead, we expect the positive momentum and our strong performance to continue in the first quarter. For Q1, 81% of our available days are fixed at over $18,700 per day, an increase of 34% versus Q4 levels. This strong performance is notable, especially considering that Q1 has historically been the seasonal low point in the dry bulk freight market. On page seven, we look back on the development of our comprehensive value strategy based on our ongoing progress in 2023. In April 2021, management and the board laid out a clear path and related objectives to transfer Genco into a low leverage, high dividend yielding company with significant financial flexibility to provide shareholders with returns and opportunistically grow through the dry bulk shipping cycles. Since that time, we have made significant progress towards these goals, and importantly, have balanced our capital allocation priorities, having paid $170 million in dividends, acquired $236 million of vessels, and paid down $249 million in debt. Moving to slide eight, we have declared compelling dividends over the last four and a half years, including nine since the announcement of our value strategy. Over this 18-quarter period, cumulative dividends to shareholders amount to $5.15 per share, or 29% of the current share price. Further supporting our ability to pay sustainable dividends is our recent success executing the next steps of our fleet renewable strategy, as displayed on slide 9. In November 2023, we purchased two 2016-built scrubber-fitted cape-sized vessels for $86 million while divesting three 2009 and 2010 Cape-sized vessels. This trade further modernized our Cape-sized fleet and reduced the risk profile while also increasing 2024 earnings and cash flow capacity. Following the sales of the three older Capes, we expect 2024 dry dock savings of approximately $10 million as we avoided the expensive third special surveys for these ships. In line with our barbell approach to fleet composition noted on slide 10, we'll continue to evaluate further opportunities in the sale and purchase market to renew our fleet. Turning to slide 11, we believe Genco is in a highly advantageous position going forward. Specifically, based on our success lowering our debt outstanding by 55% over the last three years, we have an industry low net loan to value an industry-low cash flow breakeven rate, and nearly $300 million in undrawn revolver availability. This provides significant financial flexibility and optionality for the company going forward in a cyclical and capital-intensive business. As such, we believe that Genco is well positioned to operate in both up and down markets, as shown on slide 12. With approximately $1 million in fleet value, and taking into consideration our scale and operating leverage, we expect Genco's fleet to significantly benefit from a rising market. With that said, and given our access to capital, we are also able to take advantage of counter-cyclical opportunities to buy vessels to increase our earnings power, much like we did prior to the recent Cape Sizer rally in early Q4. Going forward, a key priority for Genco is continuing to be good stewards of capital for shareholders. and continuously evaluating capital allocation priorities. On slide 13, we summarize the key tenets of our approach to capital allocation. First, maintain low financial leverage to lower cash flow breakeven levels based on the significant operating leverage inherent in the business. Second, pay compelling quarterly dividends consistently to shareholders. The third, opportunistically grow the asset base. And the fourth is to employ a borrowable approach to fleet composition by maintaining a fleet of cape-sized vessels for upside potential while owning Ultramax and Supermax vessels with a more stable earning stream. We believe our low leverage, high dividend payout model executed in scale is industry leading in the dry bulk shipping public markets. Given the volatility and the cyclicality of dry bulk shipping, we also believe it creates the optimal risk-reward balance to provide sizable returns to shareholders, opportunistically grow the fleet, and enhance our earnings power through the cycles. I will now turn the call over to Peter Allen, our Chief Financial Officer.

Thank you, John. On slides 15 through 17, we highlight key financial metrics of the company, specifically for Q4 2023, JNCO recorded net income of $4.9 million, or 12 cents and 11 cents basic and diluted earnings per share, respectively. which includes a non-cash special impairment charge of $13.6 million relating to the agreed-upon sale of three older, less fuel-efficient Cape-sized vessels. Excluding this non-cash charge, adjusted net income was $18.6 million, or 43 cents, basic and diluted earnings per share. Adjusted EBITDA for Q4 totaled $37.1 million, bringing the full-year 2023 total to $101.5 million. During Q4, our net revenues increased by 50% as compared to Q3, while our recurring cost structure remained approximately flat over the period, illustrating the high degree of operating leverage inherent in the business. This operating leverage is best displayed by our Cape-sized vessels, specifically those on index-length contracts. These ships achieved an average TCE of over $33,000 per day in Q4, 91% higher than in Q3, directly benefiting from the rapid rise in the Cape-sized market at year-end. With such operating leverage, there is less of a need for financial leverage to achieve strong returns. On slide 18, we highlight the trajectory of our debt outstanding over the last three years and our continued voluntary debt repayments. Through the end of 2023, we've paid down nearly $250 million of debt, meaningfully reducing our leverage. Given our 100% revolving credit facility, we will continue to actively manage our debt balance to save on interest expense while opportunistically drawing down for vessel purchases given our nearly $300 million of undrawn capacity. During the fourth quarter, we closed on a $500 million revolving credit facility, which is a key step in the continued development of our capital allocation approach. This facility increased our borrowing capacity by over $150 million. lowered pricing on margin by 30 to 60 basis points from the previous facility, and extended maturity to the end of 2028. This 100% revolving credit facility structure provides further flexibility and aligns well with our value strategy as the RCF structures enables Genco to continue to voluntary pay down debt in line with our medium-term goal of zero net debt without losing the capacity to draw down to fund growth. To this point, we took advantage of the company's meaningful liquidity position to opportunistically acquire two modern high-specification cape-sized vessels. We'll continue to assess additional sale and purchase transactions in the market in line with our fleet renewal strategy. As of December 31, 2023, our cash position was about $47 million, and our debt outstanding was $200 million, bringing our net debt level to $153 million and net loan-to-value ratio to 15%. With 295 million of undrawn revolver availability, our total liquidity position at the end of the year was $342 million. Following the completion of the agreed upon vessel sales in the first quarter, we anticipate our net loan to value ratio to reduce to 10%. Moving to slide 19, we highlight our transparent dividend policy, which targets a distribution based on 100% of excess quarterly cash flow, excluding maintenance and withholding for future investments. The nature of our variable quarterly dividend and our fleet's operating leverage enables shareholders to directly benefit from freight rate increases as our Q4 dividend increased by 173% to $0.41 per share. Our Q4 2023 dividend represents an annualized yield of approximately 9% on the current share price, nearly double the two-year U.S. Treasury rate of approximately 4.7%. Looking ahead to Q1 2024 on slide 20, We anticipate our cash flow breakeven rate, excluding extraordinary annual meeting-related expenses, to be $9,752 per vessel per day, well below our Q1 TC estimates to date of $18,724 per day for 81% fixed, pointing to another strong quarter. I will now turn the call over to Michael Orr, our dry bulk market analyst, to discuss industry fundamentals.

Thank you, Peter. As depicted on slide 22, After an atypically soft third quarter, the dry bulk market increased meaningfully in the fourth quarter with Cape-sized vessels reaching multi-year highs of over $50,000 per day in December. Sea-strong rates continued into the historically softer period leading up to Lunar New Year in February. Cape-sized rates reached a 15-year high for this time of year, driven by continued tightness in the Atlantic Basin. Currently, Cape size and supermax rates remain at firm levels of approximately $23,000 and $13,000 per day, respectively. Slides 23 and 24 highlight the aforementioned seasonality of the dry bulk freight market, which has historically seen a reduction of cargo availability, particularly from Brazil, due to poor weather conditions and scheduled maintenance, coupled with the timing of new building deliveries and the Lunar New Year. However, various geopolitical events continue to impact the dry bulk freight market, as highlighted on slides 25 and 26. In October, low water levels in the Panama Canal impacted a number of ships that could transit, resulting in heavy delays and rerouting of vessels. One of these options was to divert vessels through the Suez Canal. However, in December, attacks on commercial vessels in the region led many shipping companies to no longer transit the Southern Red Sea and Gulf of Aden area, further disrupting the efficiency of the global dry bulk fleet. Approximately 7% of dry bulk trade transit through the Suez Canal. Larger scale tonnage rerouting over an extended period of time could increase 10 mile demand for dry bulk shipping, all else equal. Regarding the Chinese steel complex on slide 27 and 28, China's iron ore port inventories have been building over the last several months from very low levels, but still remain well off of 2022 highs. China's iron ore imports rose by 7% in 2023 year over year. supporting iron ore prices which remain firm at approximately $120 per ton. China's steel production was flat year-over-year in 2023. However, India grew substantially at 12%, while ex-China output increased on a year-over-year basis for the last six months. Looking ahead to 2024, the World Steel Association forecasts China's production to remain at 2023 levels, while the rest of the world is expected to see growth of 4%, potentially signaling an increase in demand from developed countries and support from the secondary trade routes outside of Asia. In terms of the grain trade, the end of Q1 represents the start of the South American grain season, which typically sees an increase in Brazilian soybean exports, which is supportive to minor bulk rates. As shown on slide 29, the USDA is forecasting another strong crop out of Brazil. Regarding the supply side outline on slides 30 to 32, net sneak growth in 2023 was 3%. The historically low order book as a percentage of the fleet as well as near-term and longer-term environmental regulations are expected to keep net fleet growth low in the coming years. While we expect volatility in the freight market, the foundation of a low supply growth picture provides a solid basis for our constructive view of the dry bulk market going forward. I will now turn the call back over to John for closing remarks.

Thank you, Michael. Before we turn to Q&A, there are a few key points that I'd like to highlight. First, we are executing a clear plan and doing so with a commitment to strong corporate governance. We've made demonstrable progress executing across the three pillars of our comprehensive value strategy. Second, our strong operating and financial results for the fourth quarter and full year demonstrate the strength of our industry-leading commercial platform and our significant operating leverage. We are pleased to outperform benchmarks and increase the TCE by 44% from third quarter levels. Finally, we believe the key steps we are taking are positioning us to create value both today and for the long term. This concludes our presentation and we would now be happy to take your questions.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now conduct the question and answer session. If you have a question, please press star followed by the number one on your touchtone phone. You will hear a three-tone prompt acknowledging your request. If you would like to cancel your request, please press star two. Please ensure you leave the handset if you are using a speakerphone before pressing any keys. Your first question comes from the line of Omar Nocta from Jefferies. Your line is now open.

Thank you. Hey, guys. Good morning. Thanks for the update. And, you know, thanks for outlining, obviously, the strategy as you've been ongoing now for three plus years or so. I wanted to ask just about the dry bulk market overall. Clearly things have been, and as you were touching on just now in the presentation, things have been much healthier than expected. Definitely going into 4Q, there were not expectations for rates to jump as they did. And so far here in the first quarter, things have been much, much healthier as well. And just wanted to dive just a bit deeper, just kind of maybe from your perspective, if you could just give us a sense of what do you think is really behind this market? Is it demand? Is demand really the driver here? You obviously talked about the Red Sea, the Panama Canal. Is that also having an issue on the margin? Or how would you characterize this market, say, today versus last year at this time when things were looking fairly soft?

So, obviously, great question, Omar. I think you have to start with the supply side, which is, again, continues to be very low in terms of percentage of the fleet on order. We're going to have even lower deliveries this year versus last. And then as we get into 2025, deliveries slow down even further. And again, they're from very low levels to begin with. So we have a very good supply-demand balance. This first quarter though, and we really started to see it towards the middle of the fourth quarter, we've seen actual increased volumes on iron ore, bauxite, coal. I think certainly the El Nino effect that has created dry weather in the iron ore areas in Brazil have enabled valet to increase production. from what would normally be a seasonal low because it would typically be the rainy season when in fact it's been pretty dry. So we've seen increased iron ore. We've seen increased bauxite out of West Africa. Coal shipments have been strong. We are about to come into peak grain season for the southern hemisphere. Things look very, very good there in both Brazil and Argentina, Argentinian corn. You know, had a pretty bad year last year. This year looks like it's going to be close to a record on the corn side. So that all looks positive. But then you talk about some of the inefficiencies. I think the Panama Canal is probably causing greater inefficiencies than the Red Sea, though, you know, certainly the vessels avoiding the Red Sea are part of the story as well. But when I look at it, fundamentally, I believe the market is being driven by low supply, demand has been up, volumes have been up, and then we do have some inefficiencies that have been created around the Panama Canal and the Red Sea area, southern Red Sea area.

Thanks, John. That's helpful context kind of broadly on the market. And then just maybe as a follow-up, wanted to ask, you know, on your fleet renewal strategy, you sold the three older capes, you acquired the two newer ones. Obviously, we've seen asset values fairly firm, it looks like, and they continue to push higher. Just wanted to ask if you can maybe touch a bit on what we're seeing or what you're seeing in the sale and purchase market. And also, is that influencing in any way how you're looking at fleet renewal today versus, say, two months ago?

I would tell you there is a flurry of activity, particularly in the Cape size sector. But the smaller midsize vessels are, you know, moving off the shelf, so to speak, as well. But what's happening in Capes is, I would call it a little bit of a frenzy, to be quite honest with you, in the S&P market. You know, the two ships that we bought, those 2016s, which we paid 43 million, they're probably easily worth 50 million today. And that's a very short period of time. You know, that's up 16, 70% in a month and a half. Um, and it's very difficult to find eco, uh, vessels as well. And we've also seen a lot of new castle maxes being sold. I think it's, um, I think as a, you know, on the ship owning side, we all appreciate it. I'm not so sure if it's filtered on down to the rest of the world yet in terms of what values are being paid on ships. But it's definitely moved up significantly over the last, you know, 30 to 60 days. I would also tell you just in general, the sentiment in the, in particular in the Cape size markets moved up, you know, those, again, going back to the two ships that we just bought, we were able to fix those vessels on index linked deals at 128% of the DCI. So very firm percentage numbers over and above the benchmark index. And then plus scrubber economics, obviously on top of that. So there's a lot of positivity right now. On the fleet renewal side, as long as we can trade out of older ships for similar relative values as newer ships will continue to do that. So I would tell you, again, particularly in the Cape size sector, it's very difficult to find highly eco high fuel fish and vessels, which is what we're focused on.

Very good. Thanks, John, for that color. Appreciate it. And I'll turn it over. Thank you, Omar.

Your next question comes from the line of Lee Embert from B. Riley. Your line is now open.

Thank you. Good morning, John. Good morning, Peter. Good morning. John, the index link charters for the five CAPEs have worked out pretty well for you. They run about a year. How are you looking? Do you see opportunities to add more CAPEs to the to those fixtures, or do you just prefer to keep the rest of the Cape fleet in the spot market?

Yeah, so look, you know, the index deals are effectively in the spot market, right? Because they're earning a daily rate basis to VCI. We do have three vessels, the Endeavor, the Resolute, and the Defender, rolling off somewhere around April, maybe a little bit later. from their index deal. So I think we'll look to do, probably renew a couple of those. In general, we like being direct with our customers, but we also believe in a portfolio approach, particularly in the Cape size sector. And when you can earn 128% of the BCI plus scrubber, those are very firm numbers. So yeah, I think we'll do a little renewal I don't see us expanding much beyond what we've done today.

Okay. It's more of a macro question, but in the presentation, you discussed the replenishment of inventories on the iron ore side in China with production being flat, the rest of the world picking up the slack in terms of iron ore demand. Are you seeing that this early in the year, or are you just seeing your iron ore trade replenishing Chinese inventories?

I would say for the most part, it's replenishing Chinese inventories. But we do expect that, you know, as we have a recovery, you know, ex-China on the steel side, we'll see more iron ore flow. You're correct that production levels are projected to be flat this year. You'll start to see production growth again next year. So I think that's positive. But don't lose sight of the fact, particularly for the capes, the growth that's coming this year in the bauxite trade and most likely a continued strong coal market.

Great. Thank you, John.

Thank you, Liam.

Your next question comes from the line of Ben Nolan from Stiefel. Your line is now open. Thanks.

Hey, guys. Hi, Ben. So going back to asset values and whatnot, John, you were talking about, a frenzy market. It seems like usually when the market's a frenzy, it's better to be a seller than a buyer. Although you did say the appetite is especially true for the more modern eco ships, which are harder to find. Do you think, you know, I mean, is this the kind of environment where you can look at some of your maybe older assets and maybe not even match them up yet with a new asset to, to pair against, but you know, take advantage of, you know, just a strong appetite or is the appetite maybe not quite as strong for, for some of the, you know, 15 year old type assets.

No, I feel like, I think the appetite is strong across the board. Um, I, I just think it's a lot more challenging to find the, the, the newer ships and yeah, that would be something that, uh, that we would look at, though I would tell you we don't have an interest per se in shrinking the fleet from these numbers. We're very constructive on not just asset values, but the overall markets because of the low supply situation. For the next few years, in terms of what we can see, we like being in dry bulk shipping. So in terms of shrinking the fleet, Um, as a, as a rule, I don't see us doing that, but of course we're going to take advantage of opportunities, even if it may mean short term selling some older ships and then, you know, medium, longer term replacing them.

Got it. Okay. That's helpful. And then from a, from a macro perspective, I'm curious, especially given all of the, uh, the grain coming out of Brazil, which tends to be a very long haul grain voyage anyway. Um, With the issues in Panama Canal, with issues in the Red Sea, are we starting to see any shift in sort of the appetite of ship type? Is there a growing preference maybe to move some of that grain on, I don't know, on a Campster Max as opposed to Super Max? Or are you seeing anything along that front just to take advantage of the scale for the longer distances?

wouldn't say there's a shift but you know panamaxes and cancer maxes have traditionally carried grain out of that area um but i wouldn't say there's actually a shift i mean i i think you know the camps this time of year in that area the cancer maxes and and the ultra max market supermax market are fairly well linked they're using all types of vessels to move that grain and you know, again, in terms of Brazil, you're talking about a, you know, another record crop off of last year projected on soybeans. Um, corn is down, but very slightly. And then again, the Argentinian corn is, um, is, is going to move up. I mean, I think we only maybe, maybe about 27 million tons last year, but it's going to be 45, 46 million tons this year. So again, I, that's, um, That's going to be a record crop. I was actually down there last week. I saw it for myself. There's a lot of corn coming out of Argentina over the next few months.

All right. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Ben.

As a reminder, if you have a question, please press star 1. Your next question comes from the line of Sheriff El-Meghrabi from BTIG. Your line is now open.

Hey, good morning. Thanks for taking my question. Good morning. First, regarding the leverage on the Ranger and the Reliance, is the thought to pay that down over time? I realize you have some cash from vessel sales coming in Q1, or could we see those ships secured under a new facility?

Hi, Sharif. Thanks for your question. Yeah, so, you know, like John mentioned earlier, we paid $86 million for those two ships in aggregate. we tapped the revolver and drew down $65 million. So in a bucket, that was 75% loan to value, but obviously the leverage position of the company is very significantly lower than that pro forma 10%. As we're getting the sale proceeds from those three shifts, we're going to actively manage our debt position to reduce interest expense and flow through the bottom line. The great thing about our new revolver is that there's no term loan component to it. So we can pay down debt, not lose borrowing capacity, and then if we do see an opportunity like the company saw in Q4, we can then tap the revolver to draw down. So I think to your point, there will be some active management of our debt from the current level of $200 million as those proceeds come in.

Thanks, Peter. That's helpful. And then you highlighted a handful of demand drivers for the recent market strength. And I think Omar's question touched on this, but a chunk of it seems to be the impact of canal to blaze on fleet supply. So do you think a full year of canal disruptions or maybe the better part of a year has been priced into vessel values? Sounds like the positive impact of El Nino in Brazil could also be a drag in the Panama Canal, for example.

Again, the Panama Canal is real in terms of creating fleet inefficiencies. It's hard to put a percentage of the fleet that's necessarily being taken out. But as I said, it's real. But again, I go back to the cargo flows. We've seen iron ore and bauxite up 10% over last year's levels. Those are real meaningful numbers, particularly when you have such a low order book and such a low delivery schedule. it creates a tremendous amount of leverage by just moving up incrementally on the demand side.

Great. Thanks for taking my question. Thank you. Take care.

Your next question comes from the line of Benedict Natingness from Clarkson Securities. Your line is now open.

Thank you. Just wanted to touch upon the CAPES as well, I guess, building on the questions of some of the other guys. You talk about the lower than normal seasonal factors and the trends in the secondhand market. How do you view potentially locking in some of your CAPES with current FFA values at around $27,000 for the remainder of the year?

So in the past, we have definitely locked ships away for one to two years, even three years at a time, particularly as you're brought up in the Cape size sector. We think that is a good way to manage risk. We're still relatively, we're still bullish on the Cape size market. So I would say it's a little too early to lock in. But it is certainly something that we're looking at. And as I said, we've done it in the past, and from time to time, we think it's the right move to take some risk off the table in the CAPEs. You know, the other thing I would point out is the index deals that we've recently done, as well as the past index deals, have options for us to fix periods of time within those transactions. And we've done that. We actually did that a little bit for the month of February in the first quarter, but obviously that was very short term and it was just to sort of get through the month of February. But we have that option to lock longer term.

That's great, Colburn. And also, if I could just touch upon the fleet renewal as well. You've been quite active on the CAPE side, but when should we expect to see some of the same for SuperMAXs, or if at all?

You will. We're focused on some of the 58s. It's hard to put a definitive timeframe on it, except that I would say I expect it to happen this year, keep in mind that, you know, we have bought 11 ultras since 2018. So this has been a, an ongoing process. Um, but now with where vessel values are, they seem to be firming, you know, the, the momentum from the capes are moving down into the, into the midsize vessels. Um, so it's starting to make sense on the valuation front for that, for our, some of our older 58. So it's definitely, uh, definitely on the table. Just a little hard to give you the exact timing, but I certainly believe this year.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. I'll return to the queue.

Thank you.

As there are no further questions at this time, this concludes our conference call for today. We thank you for your participation and ask that you please disconnect your lines.