Koppers Holdings Inc.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome to COPPA's fourth quarter 2024 earnings conference call and webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. If you need assistance, please alert a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero. Following your presentation, instructions will be given for the question and answer session. Please note this event is being recorded. Now I would now like to turn the conference over to Ms. Quinn McGuire. Please go ahead, ma

'am. Thanks and good morning. I'm Quinn McGuire, Vice President of Investor Relations. Welcome to our fourth quarter and full year 2024 earnings conference call. We issued our press release earlier today. You may access it via our website at .croppers.com. As indicated in our announcement, we've also posted materials to the Investor Relations page of our website that we referenced in today's call. Consistent with our practice and prior quarterly conference calls, this is being broadcast live on our website and a recording of this call will be available on our website for replay through May 27, 2025. At this time, I would like to direct your attention to our forward-looking disclosure statement seen on slide two. Certain comments made on this conference call may be characterized as forward-looking statements as defined under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These forward-looking involve a number of assumptions, risks, and uncertainties, including The company's risk described in the cautionary statement included in our press release and in the company's filings with Securities and Exchange Commission. In light of the significant uncertainties inherent in the forward-looking statements included in the company's comments, you should not regard the inclusion of such information as a representation that its objectives, plans, and projected results will be achieved. The company's actual results, performance, or achievements may differ materially from those expressed in or implied by such forward-looking statements. The company assumes no obligation to update any forward-looking statements made during this call. Also, references may be made today to certain non-GAAP financial measures. The press release, which is available on our website, also contains reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP financial measures. Joining me for our call today are Leroy Ball, Chief Executive Officer of COPPAERS, and Jimmy Sue Smith, Chief Financial Officer. At this time, I'll turn the discussion over to Leroy.

Thank you, Quinn. Good morning, everyone. I'll begin this morning by stating my disappointment in falling short of our financial expectations for the fourth quarter and full year 2024. We seem to be on our way to meeting our fourth quarter goal after posting a record October that followed a record second and third quarter for adjusted EBITDA. As the last two months of the year progressed, however, we experienced volume slowdowns in each of our businesses that cannot be overcome by short-term cost measures. There are a number of factors for the drop, including the market share loss we've caught out in our PC business in November that began sooner than expected, some hurricane hangover as customers needed to absorb the influx of material from late September and October storm response, issues with consistent car flow with rail customers that delayed shipments and backed up plants, and frankly, some of it was just companies pushing pause and proceeding with caution as they began assessing the outlook with the Republican White House and Congress. In anticipation of some of the challenges we knew we would face in 2025, we began in 2024 reducing our workforce through a series of actions that has to date resulted in a 5% reduction of our global employee base that had very little impact on the fourth quarter but will result in over $10 million in savings this year. I'll get into more detail later in the call on my thoughts for this year, but to set the stage, I still believe we're poised to post a strong year overall in every important metric in 2025, but it may not be a smooth and easy ride to get there. We anticipate earnings to benefit from a combination of top line improvements that will ramp up as the year progresses, greater operating efficiencies, and continued aggressive cost containment measures across our business. We remain encouraged by the accomplishments of our global coppers team to create a foundation for a connected world through our leading portfolio of critical products and services. I want to begin with a summary of key metrics for the fourth quarter as seen on slide four. We achieved consolidated sales of $477 million compared with $513 million in the prior year reflecting the demand pullback I mentioned earlier. Despite the revenue shortfall, we still generated record fourth quarter adjusted EBITDA of $55.2 million compared with $53.9 million in the prior year quarter. Our adjusted EBITDA margin was .6% versus .5% in the prior year quarter. Fourth quarter diluted loss per share was 50 cents compared with diluted earnings per share 59 cents in the prior year quarter. And while adjusted earnings per share for the quarter were 77 cents compared with 67 cents in the prior year quarter. Gap EPS was negatively impacted by restructuring related charges in addition to the standard life low and non-cash hedging impacts. We generated record fourth quarter operating cash flow of $74.7 million versus $66.6 million in the prior year quarter. Slide five outlines our full year key metrics for 2024 starting with consolidated sales of $2.09 billion compared with $2.15 billion in 2023. A slight decline driven primarily by continued soft pricing in our CMC end markets. This was partially offset by a record sales year in our railroad utility products and services business driven by added sales from our brown wood acquisition and some pricing benefit. Adjusted EBITDA was $261.6 million representing our ninth consecutive record year in profitability. Adjusted EBITDA margin for the year was .5% compared with .9% in the prior year. The .5% margin represents our best annual margin since 2021. And continuing to move this number higher will be a primary focus in 2025. Diluted earnings per share were $2.46 versus $4.14 in the prior year. Adjusted earnings per share were $4.11 compared with $4.36 in the prior year. Representing our fifth straight year crossing the $4 mark after never having reached it prior to 2020. We generated operating cash flow of $119.4 million in 2024 compared with a record $146.1 million in the prior year. More importantly was our second straight year in the black from a free cash flow standpoint following the investment heavy early years of our 2025 strategy which had put us in a free cash flow deficit. I expect the improved free cash flow trend to continue in 2025 as operating cash flow improves and capital expenditures continue to moderate. Seen on slide six, Coppers will be hosting a virtual investor day on Thursday, September 18th. Our executive team will be unveiling the details of our 2030 strategic plan. Look for more details in the months to come. But in the meantime, please mark your calendars and plan to join us that day. I want to highlight a few more things before turning the call over to Jimmy Sue. Because I don't believe that financial performance alone tells the full story of Coppers. If you move to slide eight, you'll see that about half our facilities worldwide, 23 out of 47, operated accident free for the year. And notably our Europe CMC and Europe PC businesses completed the year with zero recordable incidents. The relentless focus of our leaders on driving leading activities once again led to a new all-time low recordable injury rate across Coppers and enabled us to take our next step towards zero. I've said many times over the safety and health of our people will always be a top priority and the progress made in 2024 brings us closer to our goal. By 10 shows an important achievement worth mentioning. We're honored to be again recognized by Newsweek as one of America's most responsible companies for the fifth consecutive year. Our move up the rankings to 113 overall is a recognition of our holistic approach to business. Knowing that if we don't run responsible operations and value people as we seek to improve profitability, we jeopardize our future. Moving on to slide 11, I want to point out the results of our 2024 employee engagement survey which were slightly better than 2023 resulting in our highest engagement scores to date. We know that our chances of success improved dramatically with an engaged workforce that feels valued, is rewarded for superior performance, and is informed and aligned to our long term goals. My thanks to everyone that took part because it is your feedback that enabled us to continue working on making Coppers a better place for everyone. I'll now turn the discussion over to our Chief Financial Officer, Jimmy Sue Smith.

Thanks Leroy. Earlier today we issued a press release detailing our fourth quarter and year end 2024 results. My comments this morning are based on that information. As seen on slide 13, we had consolidated fourth quarter sales of 477 million, a decrease of 36 million or 7% compared with the prior year quarter as Leroy said all in the last two months of the year following a record October. By segment, rep sales were flat with the prior year while PC sales were lower by 16.5 million or 10% and CM&C sales decreased by 19 million or 14%. As seen on slide 14, full year 2024 consolidated sales totaled 2.09 billion, a decrease of 62 million in 3% versus the prior year. By segment, reps achieved record sales for the year with sales increasing by 45 million or 5% while PC sales were lower by 20 million or 3% and CM&C sales decreased by 87 million or 15% compared to the prior year. On slide 15, adjusted EBITDA for the fourth quarter was 55 million with an .6% margin. By segment, reps generated adjusted EBITDA of 18 million with an 8% margin, PC delivered adjusted EBITDA of 29 million with a 19% margin and CM&C reported adjusted EBITDA of 9 million with an 8% margin. On slide 16, full year 2024 adjusted EBITDA was a record at 262 million with a .5% margin. By segment, reps generated adjusted EBITDA of 82 million with a margin of approximately 9%. PC had adjusted EBITDA of 143 million with a 22% margin while CM&C provided EBITDA of 37 million with a margin of over 7%. On slide 17, fourth quarter sales for our reps business were 216 million, consistent with last year. Sales were impacted by decreased volumes of Class 1 cross ties, partly offset by higher utility flow volumes driven by our acquisition of Brownwood and continued price increases across multiple markets, mostly commercial cross ties and Australian utility goals. The market prices for untreated cross ties remain stable. Year over year, fourth quarter cross tie procurement was down 8% and cross tie treatment was down 11%. Adjusted EBITDA for reps was 18 million compared with 21 million in the prior year quarter. Profitability declined primarily due to higher raw material, operating and allocated SG&A costs, offset in part by net sales price increases, insurance proceeds, and records fourth quarter operating profit and adjusted EBITDA in our domestic utility poll business. On slide 18, our performance chemicals business delivered fourth quarter sales of a 100% and 148 million compared to 164 million in the prior year quarter. This can be attributed to lower volumes of residential wood treatment preservatives related to market share shifts and reduced demand for industrial preservatives, which together drove an .5% volume decrease in the Americas. In general, prices remain relatively flat compared to prior year. Adjusted EBITDA for PC came in flat year over year at 29 million. Profitability was impacted by volume decreases and higher raw material costs. However, margin improvement was achieved through cost saving initiatives, including lower logistics and overhead expenses. Slide 19 shows fourth quarter sales in our CM&C business of 114 million compared to 132 million in the prior year quarter. This decrease was driven by reduced market pricing, totalling 11.3 million across most products, including an 8% decline in carbon pitch prices and an 18% decrease in carbon pitch volumes. These factors were partially offset by higher volumes of other products. Adjusted EBITDA for CM&C in the fourth quarter was 9 million compared with 4 million in the prior year quarter. This boost in profitability stemmed from lower raw material costs, lower allocated SG&A costs, and 2.8 million of bad debt reserve in the prior year quarter, partly offset by lower sales prices and volumes. Compared to the prior quarter, the average pricing of major products was down 8% and average coal tar costs were lower by 7%. Compared to the prior year quarter, the average pricing of major products was down 13%, while average coal tar costs were down 18%. As shown on Slide 21, we continue to pursue a balanced approach to capital allocation. We invested $74 million of capital back into our business in 2024, and we're targeting $65 million for 2025. We returned $43 million to shareholders through our Stock Buyback in 2024, and our Board just authorized a new $100 million repurchase program. In addition, our Board recently increased our quarterly dividend to $0.08 per share. In terms of leverage, we ended the year with $887 million of net debt and had $381 million in available liquidity at December 31. We finished the year with a net leverage of 3.4 times and remain committed to our long-term target of 2 to 3 times net leverage ratio. While we certainly see our normal increases in leverage in the first and second quarters, we expect to end 2025 at or below 3 times leverage for the first time since mid-2014. As shown on Slide 22, in December 2024, we successfully completed the repricing of our senior-saturated term loan B due April 2030. The credit spread over SOFR on the TLB was reduced by 50 basis points, from 3% to 2.5%. This transaction contributes to our ongoing efforts to optimize our capital structure and reduce interest expense, and it did not alter our leverage, covenants, or maturity date. On Slide 23, total capital expenditures in 2024 were $77.4 million growth for $74 million net of cash proceeds. We spent $54 million on maintenance, $5.5 million on zero-harm, and $18 million on growth and productivity projects. By business segment, we spent $32 million on growth, $15 million on PC, $27.5 million on CM&C, and nearly $3 million on corporate projects. And finally, on Slide 25, as announced on February 12th, our Board of Directors declared a quarterly cash dividend of $0.08 per share of Copper's Common Stocks. The dividend will be paid on March 24th to shareholders of record as of the close of trading on March 7th. At this point in quarterly dividend rate, which is subject to review by the Board of Directors, the annual dividend is expected to be $0.32 per share for 2025, a 14% increase over the 2024 dividend. And with that, I'll turn it back over to Leroy.

Thanks, Jimmy Sue. Now onto a review of each of the businesses, and I'll start with performance chemicals on page 27. Well, we expect a solid year overall for performance chemicals in 2025. That business is coming off an all-time best performance. It will not be able to repeat. As mentioned on our November call, as well as earlier on this call, we will experience some market share loss in our residential chemical business this year as we face a more aggressive industry competitor that is invested in bringing capacity online. Some of that conversion began earlier than expected in the fourth quarter and contributed to the volume reduction that Jimmy Sue mentioned. On the positive side, it's given us an opportunity to further diversify our customer base by adding several smaller accounts to backfill part of the lost demand, and importantly, we still maintain just over 50% overall market share in the residential market. Focusing on the North American market, which drives the bulk of results in this segment, I would describe customer sentiment for this year as cautiously optimistic. Persistently elevated mortgage rates, existing home turnover seemingly stuck in neutral, and declining consumer confidence due to policy concerns has treated us uneasy about whether we will see any growth in treated products this year. But on the flip side, remodeling spending seems to have flattened out after eight straight quarters of -over-year declines, and the Home Depot on their call earlier this week specifically called out decking and fencing as two of the categories that they saw strength in the fourth quarter. Our market forecast for 2025 is one of slight organic growth, while some hope also remains that spending to rebuild from the historic storms last year will begin in earnest. Anecdotally, excluding the market share loss I spoke to earlier, we have seen healthy comparative volumes in the early part of this year, and treaters have been reporting that despite the frigid winter throughout the U.S., they've not seen an impact on demand. PC's industrial book of business remains robust, and we have more than enough capacity to satisfy increased demand when the utility pull market springs back. The share loss and relative economic uncertainty has us emphasizing the importance of cost control and efficiency gains which we are pursuing across the organization, not just at PC. Tariffs remain somewhat the wild card in this business as we do source some components of our production from China and other countries that could be targeted for tariffs, and the recent inclusion of copper in the discussion has created a new challenge with which to contend. All this seems to change by the day. We currently estimate that the US tariffs on China, Canada, and Mexico could have an approximate $5 million impact on PC, which doesn't include the potential impact of retaliatory tariffs. We do have mitigation options to address most of the U.S. tariffs and believe that any impact for PC would be negligible. The copper issue could be a little more problematic, and so we're keeping a close watch on where this goes. The copper we use is predominantly domestically sourced scrap, which we hedge to smooth the volatility. Without getting too far into the weeds, the copper we purchase and the hedges we put in place are based off of pricing in two different markets that have traditionally been highly correlated. Now, the noise around tariffs has caused a widening gap in the spread between those two markets, which is causing our hedges and underlying purchases to not match as well as they traditionally have, which is creating additional expense that we may not be able to recoup. Now, this is a new phenomenon that we're working to mitigate in the future. And in the case it does persist. The total unmitigated impact of this issue in 2025 could be as high as $10 million. Factoring in the full impact of the copper issue just mentioned, we are projecting our PC business to finish with adjusted EBITDA of about $113 million, down $30 million from 2024. Moving on to our utility and industrial products business, the results of the results were fueled by early strength from hurricane response and a contribution from Brownwood. Demand tailed off in the back half of November through the rest of the year. We took a late quarter inventory charge in Australia. Although not yet robust, demand in the early part of 2025 has recovered from the late fourth quarter hangover and is at least back to levels seen for the first quarter of 2025. The customer sentiment is that demand levels will likely not change until at least midyear. Now, while customer demand is an important consideration, the linchpin of our growth in the utility market is through share growth in underserved geographic regions, which was the purpose of most of our investments in this business over the past couple of years. Now we are implementing the technology solutions and realigning the organization to more effective expand the breadth of our sales reach. Now repeat what I've said a number of times as it relates to greater market share penetration. We are not interested in participating in a race towards the bottom. We believe that a large swath of the U.S. and Canada would like greater options for supply and that's what Coppers is interested in bringing to them. We have no big investments, organic or otherwise, teed up at the moment for UIP in 2025, although we will continue to remain open to opportunities as they arise. Our utility pole plants are all running well and our new Kennedy Alabama plant has begun treating Douglas fir, a western species critical for the transmission market all across the U.S. and key for Coppers portfolio offering as we compete for certain customer accounts. This time we have no heightened concerns on the fiber supplies. Worries about the impacts from last year's hurricane damage seem to have abated with overall pricing remaining largely intact. Other than potential follow on impacts from tariffs in our P.C. business on the chemical side, we have no current tariff exposure in our pole business as it relates to fiber or other major raw material expenditure. Our railroad products and services business is summarized on page 29. We unfortunately finished 2024 in RPS with a disappointing fourth quarter. Similar to UIP, demand did drop more than expected as the fourth quarter went on and despite personnel and cost reductions, we couldn't quite overcome an 18% decrease in quarterly sales volumes. All but one class one account fell lower sales in the fourth quarter which was also the trend for the year, but the rate of decline was steeper than the first three quarters and larger than expected. Even commercial volumes were down in the fourth quarter despite being a bright spot for the full year. On the good news front, we are projecting up to an 8% volume increase in 2025 which is based upon discussions with customers and some market share shifting our way. Our projections are based upon customer interactions which of course can change as evidenced by customer feedback that had us expecting a 5% volume increase in 2024 at the beginning of last year that ultimately turned into a 4% year over year deficit by the end of the year. Now while the performance of this business continues to be frustrating in many ways, I do see a path to measurable improvement in 2025 and our commitment to quality and reliability has led to market share gains and better pricing in certain class one accounts. While we haven't given up hope on the two accounts where we haven't realized meaningful price improvement, we've pivoted our attention for now to improving our unit costs through targeted actions that include reducing operating costs, overhead, and material waste. We won't see any direct impacts from U.S. tariff actions on a rail business but would have some exposure if Canada enacts retaliatory tariffs. Finally in 2025 we'll begin to shift our cross-tie recovery and disposal business model to one of recovery only. We've reluctantly accepted that the rail industry isn't quite ready to pay the full cost for coppers to responsibly dispose of its end of life ties. We've ceased grinding at Summerville, Texas and effective tomorrow we'll be closing our launch Michigan collection and grinding yard. This is unfortunate for the small dedicated group that has faithfully served our customer base over many years and was recently recognized with our Zero Harm CEO award for safety. I want to personally thank the launch team for their dedication and efforts. Next on to the CMC business which is summarized on page 30. While the fourth quarter was much improved from prior year, it too fell short of expectations based upon softer volumes due to pullbacks in the latter half of the quarter. As announced in December, we are in the process of winding down phallic and hydride production in our Stickney Illinois plant due to declining market conditions over the past 10 years coupled with major investments needed over the next five years that we're not able to justify. The original plan was to cease production by the end of May but we are working to beat that timeline by one to two months. This closure is not expected to result in any EBITDA improvement due to stranded costs and will result in an additional 43 million dollars to 47 million dollars in charges above the 8 million recorded in the fourth quarter. 22 million to 26 million of those charges will be cash expended for cleaning, waste disposal, and plant demolition and expected to be spent by the end of 2026. At worst, we expect the plant closure to have up to three million dollars of negative annual impact EBITDA but it will save us 40 to 60 million dollars of capital investment over the next five to ten years. Like the loss closure, it's never easy to shut down operations because of the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. We are not able to make the decisions that we need to make to make sure that we can operate in. Once again, I extend my thanks and appreciation to the 25 affected employees for their service to coppers and our customers and I wish we could provide a better outcome. These actions are not the fault of anyone but the result of an ever-shifting economic environment that will at times put us in the position of being the best owners of certain assets and other times not. This level of portfolio repositioning that we've experienced in the past ten years is somewhat indicative of the mature markets that we serve. We've made these decisions and we'll continue to make them as necessary to make our remaining businesses more competitive and put the business on stronger ground for our remaining team members. Stepping back to look at the global view of CM&C in 2025, we've not modeled improvement in our, much improvement in our end markets except for Creosote due to an increase in treating demand as I mentioned earlier. Now our view on the market could change if the variety of measures taken by the new administration spur any restart of vital aluminum capacity but we've not factored that into our current expectations. Direct tariff impacts as of now are expected to be small with mitigation plans in place. As of now we're expecting that the Creosote volume improvement along with further cost reductions and improved variable margin spread will drive a 14 million dollar increase in adjusted EBITDA compared with 2024. On slide 32 we expect consolidated sales to reach 2.17 billion in 2025 compared with 2.09 billion in 2024 which would represent a 4% increase. More than all of it attributed to stronger volumes and some pricing improvement in our erupt segment partially offset by net market share loss in performance chemicals. On slide 33 we're forecasting adjusted EBITDA of 280 million dollars which represents a 7% improvement over 2024 adjusted EBITDA of 262 million. While there's a massive amount of noise in the system right now we believe we can still show measurable improvement in 2025 as three of our four businesses are already at trough levels with nothing but upside in front of them and cost and other benefit measures in progress that will more than offset the challenges in front of us. Also we're a few weeks from completing a comprehensive assessment of each of our businesses and functions which will provide more insight into how much opportunity we believe exists beyond our current performance and what portfolio realignment is needed if any in order to reach our full potential. It's part of the final touches to our 2030 strategy that we plan to showcase in detail at our September 2025 investor day. As we think ahead to investor day and the metrics we plan to use to measure success expect us to place a greater emphasis on earnings for share moving forward which justifiably includes the depreciation and interest burden of investments made to drive the EBITDA improvement we've been building towards through the current strategy. And now that the major investments have been made I believe we can improve EPS by greater than 10 percent per year through 2030 due to multiple levers which would be remarkable. And I'll use that as a segue to direct you to slide 34 which shows our 2025 adjusted earnings per share bridge and the strong improvement we expect in 2025 driven by higher operating earnings and lower interest expense. Accordingly we're forecasting $4.75 per share in 2025 representing a new high for coppers and a 16 percent improvement over 2024. On slide 35 we're projecting capital spending of $65 million in 2025 compared with $74 million in 2024. Our 2025 capex spending reflects an ongoing normal run rate and will enable us to generate significant free cash flow over the next several years. Much of that cash flow is planned for debt reduction as well as share repurchases of our shares remain undervalued. We've completed the heavy investment period of our growth strategy and are now poised to maximize the value of those investments as market conditions eventually improve. As I wrap up my prepared comments I'll leave you with a few points I want you to take away from the call today. First despite the uncertain economic environment we find ourselves in we expect earnings to improve meaningfully in 2025 as we place even greater emphasis on driving improvement through actions that we control. Our business remains resilient and our products remain critical elements of markets they serve and will continue to be needed long into the future. Second we're moving into a more normalized capital investment period beginning this year that will unlock significant free cash flow that will prioritize to reduce debt and leverage and buy back undervalued shares. Third we believe that we have multiple ways to improve shareholder value through consistent double-digit EPS growth over our 2030 strategy time frame that we look forward to discussing in greater detail over the coming months culminating in our virtual investor day in September. With that I would like to now open it up for any questions.

We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask a question you may press star then one on your touchtone phone. If you're using a speakerphone please pick up your handset before pressing the keys and to withdraw your question please press star then two and at this time we'll pause momentarily to a symbol roster. And the first question will come from Liam Burke with B Riley FDR please go ahead. Yes

thank you good morning Leroy good morning. Leroy you mentioned in your prepared comments about PC there was market share loss and you mentioned it last quarter but it's moved into this quarter as well. What is your competitor's strategy? Is it a pricing strategy or is there an alternative formula that's competitive?

No no no Liam it's and just to be clear this isn't new market share loss right. What we announced in November was planned for in 2025 you know some of that started happening in terms of plant conversions in the fourth quarter which was which was you know before we had expected but but it's the same it's the same you know share loss that we had mentioned back in November. Yeah it's look it's we have we have grown market share significantly you know in the time that we've owned that business. You know to the point where most of the the top traders you know we're sole source with us and I think you know over time you know they look to to to you know diversify their supply chain and mitigate some risk there they were looking to you know split a little bit of that business and you know you had a competitor that had changed hands in terms of ownership. Some investments were made to be more aggressive than going after business and and you know it's purely what it is. I think it's a diversification of risk on on some of our customers ends and a you know an aggressive competitor who who put some money into capacity to to try and improve their overall business. Yeah it's it's one of those things that you know as you continue to grow and get bigger and and increase market share you get to a point where obviously there's a greater risk and likelihood that you you know you're going to go backwards and go forwards and so that's kind of where we found ourselves and we're a little bit of victim of our own success over the past 10 years.

Great thank you Leroy and you discussed on the UIP that there there are no immediate plans of investment on expansion either is it because the acquisitions aren't out there or you just have other projects that have better opportunities to invest in?

Yeah I'd say it's a couple things I'd say I'd say that you know we made some investments that that are already going to provide us opportunities to grow share you know in markets that we don't have a lot of presence in right now so so we're working to start to deliver on on those investments and you know we're there's there's discussions going on and things that we're looking at relative to you know to other geographic markets here in North America that you know we'll see how it develops over time some of it could happen this year if so we're not talking about big numbers at all and so at this point in time I'd say from a capital standpoint we just don't see a lot of immediate near-term needs now as we move into 26 again we'll be reassessing as we go throughout the year but overall I think for us to be able to continue to to grow a lot of the investments have been made there's still some more to make they're not huge in the overall scheme of things relative to the money that we spent in the last you know three plus years.

Great thank you Leroy. Yep.

The next question will come from Gary Prestapino with Barrington Research please go ahead.

Good morning Leroy Jimmy Soon Quinn. Leroy I just wanted to ask a couple of questions here I'm going to jump around. You talked about your goal of share of growth in under penetrated regions utility. I assume you're hiring more salespeople but what have you actually started to pursue these under penetrated markets or is that something that's going to start coming through in 2025 with a bigger impact in 2026?

Yeah yeah so we've already been down that path right some of it is through the investments we've made to go into Texas and so we've already been actively you know adding some business in that particular market you know the Brown acquisition really opened up more opportunity for us to go up into the Midwest in terms of where those assets are situated you know we're you know we're in the early 20s and we're starting to see some of the benefits of that in terms of being able to go up into and having more of a presence up in that area and then as it relates to really going further west you know that's still you know a little bit out in the future we're just not really set up at the moment from an overall operations and distribution standpoint to to go after those markets you know it's kind of what Liam was alluding to I guess with his question around the investments in UIP that you know and sort of where we sit at the moment as it relates to you know expansion plans so like we're set up right now where I think we can actually we have we have more than enough capacity to go after you know continue to make penetration into Texas and the Midwest we're not yet really set up to to go out west just yet but that's the you know the sort of the next phase of things and that will be you know that would be out sometime probably 26-27 time frame.

Okay and then that's great and then just a question on the closure of the Stickney plant again I'm not really a chemical analyst but first of all what level of sales can you quantify that we're coming out of that Stickney plant? Yeah

so what that particular unit of operation is is one that actually consumes a byproduct of our distillation process right so you know it there's basically what we'll be what we'll be losing is a little bit of of of if you will incremental added value pricing and and you know the coverage of costs associated with taking that byproduct that we make and you know making phthalic anhydride into it so the naphthalene that we used to basically consume in that process will be selling out into the merchant market so so you know I forget what the overall impact on sales we had estimated that to be but it's you know it's maybe I don't know 30 million dollars 35 million dollars or something like that. Okay and

then and this plant

was not producing any creosote that you use in your Stickney does it's just through it's just a different unit operation so like I say we we know we have tar distillation which basically takes our raw material and produces carbon pitch and creosote and carbon black feedstock and then this naphthalene that that essentially goes into the phthalic anhydride production and then and then you know that gets sold out into the market we're closing down the phthalic operation. Okay thank you.

Yep. The next question will come from Michael Mattson with Stododi and Company please go ahead.

Good morning you guys and thanks for taking my question. Sure. My question relates to forecasting on what you'll be doing with your free cash flow on next year just some back of the envelope figures with your reduction in capex and factoring out the ground acquisition that's incremental gain in free cash flow of around 110 even before any improvements in operating income. I know you'll be buying back shares opportunistically but can you give us any kind of a guesstimate about how you'll be allocating free cash flow to share repurchases versus debt payout?

Yeah sure so I think we even we tried to provide some clarity in the release that went out this morning. Look our shares have been trading at a significant discount to our long-term average of enterprise value multiple. We see continued growth in our business which will only continue to push that side of the equation up so you know to the extent that the share price doesn't move it's going to get even more undervalued and we're going to we're going to buy back shares within our window and within our credit constraints under our current facility you know as that situation is in place and then beyond that we're allocating you know the additional free cash flow to pay down debt and we believe that the combination of the two will get us you know by the end of this year to you know right around that three times leverage mark and put us in a position to get meaningfully below it as we go into 26.

Terrific if you'll permit one more question it looked like the key difficulty in Q4 for the rough segment was cross-high volumes for rails. I'm wondering if you've seen any improvements there in either volume or pricing?

Yeah so yes and look I think that was certainly short-term. Again the discussions we've had with customers as it relates to volumes in 25 would have us have us expecting an eight percent increase in cross-high volume this year and so you know we're planning for 25 to be a pretty good year overall from a volume standpoint as it relates to pricing there's some contractual pricing that will definitely come through and you know we continue to have discussions again with a couple of the customers that that we've not been able to push the more meaningful price increases through and there's some potential for some movement there we believe. So you know right now I'd say pricing we do expect to be higher in 25 overall in volumes. Right now our projections are for an eight percent increase on cross-high.

Thank you and good luck in the coming quarter in coming year.

Thank you Michael.

This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to our CEO Mr. Leroy Brown excuse me Mr. Leroy Ball for any close remarks. Please go ahead sir.

Okay thank you everyone I appreciate everyone's taking the time to participate on the call today and your continued interest in coppers. We'll talk to you again next quarter. Thank you.

The conference has now concluded thank you for attending today's presentation you may now disconnect.