This conference call transcript was computer generated and almost certianly contains errors. This transcript is provided for information purposes only.EarningsCall, LLC makes no representation about the accuracy of the aforementioned transcript, and you are cautioned not to place undue reliance on the information provided by the transcript.
Operator
Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to Las Vegas Sands' third quarter 2021 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are in the listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during the session, you will need to press star 1 on your telephone. And if you require any further assistance, please press star 0. Thank you. I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker today, Mr. Dan Briggs. Sir, the floor is yours.
Dan Briggs
Thank you, operator. Joining me on the call today are Rob Goldstein, our chairman and chief executive officer, and Patrick Dumont, our president and chief operating officer. Also joining us on the call are Dr. Wilfred Wong, president of SANS China, and Grant Chung, chief operating officer of SANS China. Before I turn the call over to Rob, please let me remind you that today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements that we are making under the safe harbor provision of federal securities laws. The company's actual results could differ materially from the anticipated results in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we may discuss non-GAAP measures. A definition and a reconciliation of each of these measures to the most comparable GAAP financial measures is included in the press release. Please note that we have posted supplementary earnings slides on our investor relations website. We may refer to those slides during the Q&A portion of the call. Finally, for those who would like to participate in the Q&A session, We ask that you please respect our request to limit yourself to one question, one follow-up, so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. Please note that this presentation is being recorded. With that, let me please turn the call over to Rob.
Rob Goldstein
Thanks, Dan. Good afternoon and good morning to our colleagues in Asia, and thank you for joining our call today. I'll provide some brief comments, then we'll go to the Q&A. Our results continue to reflect the pandemic's impact. Heightened restrictions directly impacted our results in both Macau and Singapore this quarter. We did generate positive EBITDA for the quarter in both markets and remain confident in eventual recovery in both Macau and Singapore. Singapore gaming operations were closed for a portion of the quarter and enhanced restrictions were in place throughout the remainder of the quarter. The good news in Singapore is that travel quarters are being established with a number of source markets which hopefully will contribute to the stronger recovery over time. Our considerable investments in Macau continue to take shape. As the market recovers, we believe that four seasons in London will present growth opportunities in the future. The spending in Macau has proven both resilient at the premium mass level from both a gaming and a retail perspective. You can see on page 29 and 30 in your deck. We have great optimism about our ability to perform to a pre-pandemic level once visitation does return. Our company is divided into three areas. Most important is the Asia portfolio in Macau and Singapore. We remain confident we will return to a strong positive cash flow in both Macau and Singapore in the future as restrictions are eased and travel and tourism recover. The sale of our Las Vegas assets create liquidity and optionality as we pursue large-scale land-based destination resorts in both the US and Asia. We will continue to build out our digital presence. We're exploring multiple opportunities we'll face here at the appropriate time in the future. So thanks for your time again today. Let's go to the questions. Dan?
Dan Briggs
Operator, we're ready to go.
Operator
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, you may press star, then the number one on your telephone keypad. Once again, you may press star one to ask a question. Your first question is coming from the line of Carlos Santorelli from Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Carlos Santorelli
Hey, everybody. I hope everyone's well. Rob, obviously, I'm not going to spend a lot of time discussing the results, as we all know, the numerous impacting results right now. But when you think about kind of the progress as it pertains to Macau and what you're kind of hearing, you know, around potential easing of visa stuff, whether it's on a province-by-province basis or whatever the latest is that you could kind of share would be appreciated.
Rob Goldstein
Sure, we woke up two guys in the middle of the night to let them speak to us. Grant to Wilfred, why don't you take that since you're on the ground and living and breathing these issues every day.
Macalester
Yep, let me give that a try. Thanks, Rob. Yeah, on the visas, I think the main point is the visa channels for the individual visa scheme remains open. I think if you look at the quarter in the third quarter, what really impacted results during the quarter month by month is really the conditions on the ground in terms of domestic COVID cases. So you will see that in July we had at one point for about three weeks in July, we had a pretty significant recovery in the visitation and also room occupancy. And we were starting to get a good momentum for the summer after the issues we had in the Guangdong outbreak in June. And then as we moved into late July and early August, we had more local cases, starting with the Nanjing Airport outbreak. And eventually in early August, we did have four local cases. So that obviously curtailed the traffic immediately. And then as we moved into September, again, we were recovering. well, especially in the second and third week of September, and we were building up ready for the October golden week again. Unfortunately, we did have some local cases towards the last week of September, which again reduced the traffic immediately as it led to additional restrictions around the border. That really explains how the traffic flow evolved during the quarter.
Carlos Santorelli
Great. Thank you. That's helpful. And then just as a quick follow-up, Rob, you guys did disclose, and I think this is different from how you've disclosed historically around capital expenditures in the period. The one line in there was $24 million of corporate and other What exactly does that pertain to, and does that have anything to do with the comments that you made on kind of the digital piece of the business?
Rob Goldstein
Sure. Patrick, why don't you take that?
Patrick
Sure. I think there's a bunch of stuff in there. Some of the stuff relates to digital, and some of it relates to CapEx associated with moving.
Carlos Santorelli
Got it. And could you kind of just update your latest thoughts on the learnings of the last couple months, quarters, as it pertains to kind of the digital initiative to any degree, Patrick?
Patrick
Yeah, sure. Happy to do it. I think for us, we take a very long-term approach. We mentioned it last quarter. I think this is something that's going to invest over quarters and years. We're really investing for the future. I think for us, we're looking to be – you know, sort of mindful of the way we deploy capital. We've always had a history of investing in things that we think provide a very high level of returns in the future. And that's how we're thinking about it today. We think there's a great opportunity in digital in a variety of different areas. You can see some of the valuations that the market is giving to certain areas today. We think it's very compelling, especially for the long term. So right now, we're just sort of moving along slowly. And when we have more things to report, we will, as Rob said in his opening remarks. But we're very confident. You know, we have capital to deploy against it. We're excited about the future. And when we have more things to talk about, we certainly will. But right now, it's very early stages. Understood. Thank you, guys. Oh, thank you, Carla.
Operator
Thank you. Your next question is from the line of Stephen Grambling from Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.
Stephen Grambling
Hey, thank you. Maybe changing gears to look at Singapore. It looks like that market was also obviously impacted in the quarter, VIP particularly soft. If we look out further once restrictions happen, I guess, how do you think about the potential EBITDA potential of that asset if VIP in Macau remains pressured? In other words, what kind of overlap do you typically see in Singapore from the Chinese traveler, and could that be impacted if VIP is kind of permanently restricted?
Rob Goldstein
Sure. Yeah, first, I think the fascinating part to me is we operate in three markets currently. And Las Vegas is the blueprint, I think, for the recovery of Asia. We said about a year ago, I remember coming to work and someone told me, here in Las Vegas, we wouldn't see normal returns here till revenues till 24, 25. So here we are in the fall of 21 and the market is blown wide open. And what's the path? The path is pent-up demand, vaccinations, and doors get open. And I think Las Vegas will be the blueprint for Asia. That's the path. So vaccinations in Asia are booming. If you can look at the what's happening in singapore malaysia japan china korea it's all above the percentage-wise what's happening in the u.s so first we have extremely strong vast vaccination rates in asia surpassing the u.s number two i think you've got to obviously have a government that wants to open the doors and singapore is evidenced by their actions they wanted just that i think you'll see a big turn in 22. the recovery will begin in 22. when do we get back to 1.7 and maybe beyond that I don't know the exact date. I can't tell you. I can tell you this. It's going to get a lot better in 22. The government continues their path, which has shown a lot of leadership and thoughtfulness. Vaccination rates are actually approaching 80 plus percent. The market over there feels it's ready to come back in 22 as the government opens its travel lanes. And we look at, again, the demand issues here in Las Vegas have been, I think, very instructive. It's great to walk through here and see the numbers that's kicking out through the entire city. Why wouldn't that happen in Asia? Singapore has been a hugely important market to us. You know, your point about Macau versus the Chinese market, obviously part of our business is dependent upon access to the Chinese market, but it's not dependent. We probably could still make a lot of money, maybe as much as a billion and a half dollars without a lot of Chinese input. So if Korea opens up and Singapore opens up, Malaysia opens up and Korea and Japan Those markets are very, very fat and happy for us. And I believe we'll see them start opening up throughout 22. That's the payout. It's a vaccination rate, which is soaring. It's open travel lanes. It's opening the doors up and then watching what's happened in Vegas, what's happened in Singapore. And I feel I don't want to identify a month or a quarter, but I think you're going to see a nice turn in 22. And then the same will happen in Macau when the government decides to open those doors up. So I know there's people, I read people are saying it's 22. to Macau opens at 27. But the truth is, Vegas, it took about 30 minutes. Once we opened doors up, it just recovered. And it's a gaming-based recovery. It's not a convention, banquet-based recovery. That's yet to come. So I think the future in Vegas remains, as you always said, very bright. And there's no reason why it can't be emulated in both Singapore and Macau as vaccination rates take off and governors get more confident and travel lanes reopen. So we're highly confident it's going to happen in Singapore in 22. To what degree? I don't, I won't predict, but it's just question of time for MBS goes right back to where it was pre-COVID. You know, it's just inevitable. So we're very confident.
Stephen Grambling
That's helpful. And perhaps as a follow-up going back to Macau, what would love to just, if you could provide any additional color on the consultation process and what are the kind of the key points of clarification that, that you are watching for as you think about how to strategically position the business. Thanks.
Rob Goldstein
You know, I've been involved in a lot of my colleagues in Macau for over two decades. And we've seen and heard everything in Macau. I mean, we've been through everything. And starting 20 years ago when people said, oh, you can't do business in Macau. And, you know, then Cotai wouldn't be successful. And then we had the incredibly crippling crisis in 8 and 9. We had smoking issues. It always worked out, and we're very proud of what we've done in Macau over the years. I think our activities, our investments speak for themselves. I have faith in the process. They've always treated us fairly, and we've responded with the largest investment in any gaming market in the world. So we remain believers. We wait for the government's advice and direction. We've submitted our responses. But looking at our history, our success, I believe will be instructive for the future of our business in Macau. And so no more comment beyond that. I think it's clear to say that we have a lot of leads in this market.
Stephen Grambling
Fair enough. Thanks so much. Sure. Thank you.
Operator
Your next question is from the line of Joe Graff from J.T. Morgan. Your line is open.
Joe Graff
Hello, everybody. Hi, Joe. On Macau's recovery and the potential for recovery, more meaningful increased travel and mobility between mainland China and Macau. Do you get the impression, whether it's from conversations with the government or otherwise, that this is more likely after the Olympics in Beijing in February?
Rob Goldstein
I'll defer to the fellows on the ground, but I don't think we've heard these points of, you know, Golden Week and it's going to happen when the Olympics are over. I don't think we know, and I think it'd be silly for us to predict. I don't think we can predict We want to give you a confidence that we have great insight to when the doors will reopen. But we just know they will at some point. I think 22 will be a turn year. But I don't want to get into the game of saying it's going to happen this state. You know, I think we said in previous calls, we don't know when. We just know when it does happen. It's going to be very powerful. It's going to mimic Las Vegas. I mean, anybody who doesn't see that hasn't spent time in Macau. It's going to be quite a storm of activity over there. But I don't want to pin the Olympics or, you know, Golden Week or – because we – Obviously, we've been wrong. Those who predicted have fallen on their sword. There's no reason to. Grant, Wilford, do you have a different approach to this? Speak up.
Wilford
We agree.
Macalester
Sorry, Grant. Go ahead. I was just going to say, we see underlying demand continues to be very strong when the opportunity arises. Now, the opportunity has maybe has been relatively brief, you know, one month here, a few weeks there, but we can definitely see the underlying demand actually across all the different segments as very strong. And I think Rob referenced the pent-up demand that we've seen in Las Vegas coming through. And I think it's not going to be dissimilar in Macau, but agree with Rob that, you know, we can't be really drawn into predicting timing. but we definitely see the evidence on the pent-up demand for sure.
Wilford
Great. And I think that China will open up to the world when they feel confident that they can control any community outbreak situations. And that depends a lot on the vaccination rate which at this stage stands at about 80%, and the availability of medicinal cure. They are now testing with all kinds of cure methods, including Chinese herbal methods, and there's a lot of research going into it. So we're quite hopeful that very soon, and they are vaccinating at about 1.3, 1.4 million people a day. So if they continue like this in another 200 days, it will be another 10% of the population. So I think as China's vaccination rate goes up, the government's confidence increases. And we're hopeful that Macau, as part of China, adopting similar policies will benefit from the opening up.
Joe Graff
Great. Thank you. Patrick, on the investments on the digital side, can you talk about how you envision maybe the size of those investments over the next couple of years? Are we talking about relatively small, more modest investments, or could we see investments in the hundreds of millions or billion-dollar range, depending on what's available and what you like?
Patrick
It's something we talk about a lot internally. I think some of it's going to be related to the value of the opportunity that we see I think sort of our thoughts right now is that we're really thinking earlier stage or mid-stage. But again, it would fit into a larger strategy, and that's kind of how we'll think about being effective for the long term and how we think we'll create long-term value. I don't know that we'll necessarily look at something that's transformational right away. That's something that we may consider in the future, depending on where things go and what market opportunity we see. But I think the good news is we've got plenty of firepower. We've got a strong management team and expertise in the industry, and we think we can be really helpful to growing technology. So from our standpoint, we're going to be opportunistic and we'll see how it goes. But in the beginning, we're going to start small and sort of build from there.
Joe Graff
Thank you.
Operator
Your next question is from the line of Robin Farley from UBS. Your line is open.
Robin Farley
Great. Thanks. I wanted to ask about, you know, one of the proposals in the new legislation is that it would require government approval for dividends. And if that were enacted, I realize it's just in the discussion stages now, but if that were enacted into law, would you think twice about investing if you, if then there would be a chance that you wouldn't be approved to get a return on that investment? In other words, how much of a concern would that be for you?
Rob Goldstein
Thanks.
Patrick
I'm sorry, my grant, yes, I think it, I think from our standpoint, I think we're obviously very much focused on building on our past. And as Rob mentioned, I think we have a great track record of investing in Macau in scale and non-gaming amenities. And I think from our standpoint, we have confidence that what ultimately will result from this process will be a good path forward. And so we're very confident. We're eagerly awaiting instructions on how to proceed. But in our mind, Macau is the best market in the world. We continue to invest. We're very excited about the long-term in Macau. And, you know, we'll wait and see how things go. But from our standpoint, we're very confident about the future.
Rob Goldstein
Robin, one thing I think we try to reference is after two decades of being there, we've never found the government to be, you know, not thoughtful. They're very thoughtful. And they're going to take these issues and make it reasonable for all of us. We're not that concerned. I mean, I saw initially the response was things like that, big concern. We don't have those concerns. And, yes, we're eager to reinvest in Macau. We're assuming that the process will be fair and equal, and we're also assuming that they want us to invest as well. The government there wants to see growth in the cows. So we're not that concerned about that issue at all.
Robin Farley
Okay. No, that's helpful. Thank you. Maybe just a quick follow-up. Just in terms of timing or potential extension of your existing concession, is there a point at which – You know, you feel like the indication is that, you know, it's going to be extended for at least another 12 months. I mean, just given the timing already seems very challenging to do anything before June of 22, given the, you know, inability to travel into the country. Is that safe to assume that at this point, you know, it's not something you would expect to come up for bid before June? Thanks.
Rob Goldstein
I don't think we're going to – we're not going to voice an opinion because we just – again, we remain confident the process will work out. Again, we have two decades of history with this government, and it's been a very good two decades. This company built a great business based on it. We've had – like every business, you have stops and starts and good days and bad days. In the two decades since we started doing business in Macau, we've always found the government very reasonable, very thoughtful, and very fair. And we're not concerned whether they make that decision next month, the month after, or make it in June. I don't know when they're going to make that decision. I'll let them make that decision and tell us. We'll respond accordingly. But we have no trepidation or great fear that there'll be an issue with this. We knew this was coming. I mean, it is a leasehold. We knew this day was coming. And we're prepared for it. And we're all prepared to wait until the government tells us how they want to proceed. And we're respectful of that process.
Robin Farley
Okay, great. Thank you very much.
Rob Goldstein
Thank you.
Operator
Your next question is from the line of Sean Kelly from Bank of America. Your line is open.
Rob
Hi, good morning and afternoon, everyone. Just to maybe follow up on the, you know, on this, the whole licensing process. I mean, I think one thing we've all thought about is the requirement or the idea that they're probably incremental capital that would need to be invested either in Macau, you know, hopefully, you know, theoretically in non-gaming amenities, which you know well. or in, you know, somewhere in sort of greater mainland China. And just kind of wanted to ask about that last point, you know, any thoughts on, you know, your desire, your ability to invest directly in mainland China? Is that something you'd be prepared to do? And sort of how would you kind of underwrite, you know, returns or think about underwriting those given, you know, some of your return, you know, focus, if that was the ask?
Rob Goldstein
I'm going to defer to Patrick, but I'm going to preempt that by saying we, again, You know, we have the ability to invest. That's clear based on a balance sheet. We have the appetite to invest. We have a track record. Obviously, we've invested $15 billion. We invested a few billion dollars right before the pandemic hit, which people thought, oh, gee, you want to clarity the license? We did it. So we remain willing and eager to invest in Macau and perhaps other parts of Macau and just wait for that day to happen. Patrick, you want to jump in?
Patrick
Sure. Thanks, Rob. You know, We're very happy and very proud of Sheldon's long-term vision for Macau and for our company's investments. We're very proud of what Sheldon, the company, and the team has accomplished over many years there. The amount of investment, the high quality of tourism assets that we've created, the tourism drivers, the non-gaming diversification, and really, to be fair, a lot of the tourism innovation that we brought to Macau have all been things that have been complementary and followed through with the original goal of the first concessions. And so we're very proud about that, and we're very confident about the future and our ability to invest in order to support these long-term goals of the government and for the company. And so I think as we look to potential things that we may have to do in terms of future investment, we welcome the opportunity. We would love to invest more. We're very eager to deploy capital into these markets. We think they're very high quality, and we really believe in the future. So there's just been a lot of commentary around things that may happen to occur or may have to occur. I don't think anyone really knows. I think the only thing that we're very confident about is our ability to invest, to innovate from the tourism side, and to drive really the support of the initiatives that have been asked of us. So from that standpoint, we're ready to do it. But until we get clear directions, there's not really much more we can say.
Rob
Great. And maybe just as the follow-up, sticking with the investment theme, probably for you, Patrick, but just thinking about Um, the, like the same question for Singapore, obviously there, you have a little bit more of a developed path on, on, you know, dollars that have been allocated and when you want to get going, but you just give us the latest on when you think you'd actually be moving on, um, you know, some of the investment, uh, you know, you guys have committed to make, uh, there and, and, and building out the additional, uh, hotel tower and expansion.
Patrick
Sure. You know, as we've said before, I think we're very excited to do it. Uh, it represents a tremendous opportunity to support Singapore's goals. to deploy a significant amount of capital in the most privileged market in the world, which is really one of the great cities in the world. Singapore is growing. It was growing tremendously before the pandemic. And they've really been leaders in their public health initiatives to support their population during the pandemic. So we're very proud to be there. I think we would love to get started as soon as possible. But right now they're dealing with a lot of things that have a higher priority. So we're waiting patiently. You know, we have a long-term partnership with the government and we're looking forward to working through they will open remaining items so that we can begin, but our plan is to begin and we're very excited about it. So, you know, the question is when, and I think that's going to be dictated by a necessary public health responses around timing and opening.
Rob
Thank you very much.
Operator
Your next question. Your next question is from Ben Shaken from Credit Suisse. Your line is open.
Ben Shaken
Hey, how's it going? Um, There's been lots of conversation, understandably, about investing in digital and future investments that may be required in Singapore and Macau. But at the same time, you spoke about pent-up demand in Macau and Singapore, which seems to make a share buyback at these levels potentially a more compelling ROI. I guess, how do you balance the optionality of those different options, I guess? Yeah.
Patrick
So we think about this a lot. We spend a lot of time on it as a management team. We run a lot of sensitivities and scenarios around potential returns. And, you know, it's interesting. We have a lot of opportunity as a company. We're really excited about it. And I think our highest and best use of capital and to create the best shareholder returns really is to develop new projects from the ground up. That's how we built the company. That's how we've always created the return profile that has made our equity very compelling. And so from our standpoint, that's our focus. You know, Rob and the rest of the team spent a lot of time looking at new development opportunities in many different jurisdictions. And so we're focused on deploying capital into those jurisdictions to grow the business. At the same time, we recognize there's opportunity in the equity. And in the past, we've always returned excess capital through share purchases. And so that's something that we'll look to do in the future. But at this point, I think we're evaluating a lot of opportunities for real growth. And so from that standpoint, we're very excited. but we'll always look at the return potential of buying equity. Do we believe the equity is at a compelling level? Absolutely. But at the same time, we also like to believe that we have some real significant development opportunities in the future that would create very significant returns as well. So to your point, it is a balance, but we look at it and we're trying to allocate capital in the best way that we can. Thanks.
Operator
Thank you. Your next question is from the line of Dan Politzer from Wells Fargo. Your line is open.
Dan Politzer
Hey, everyone. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. So, on Singapore, how do you think about margins for this property over the next couple of years? I think there's a higher tax rate that goes into effect and, you know, potentially impact from construction disruption and possibly some of the costs you were able to optimize over the past 18 months. So, you know, going forward over the next couple of years, how do you think about that given, you know, the expectation for pent-up demand to come back in 2022?
Rob Goldstein
Well, personally, I look at what's happened. Again, it's instructive. Look at Las Vegas. The so-called four-year recovery took, again, about less than a year. I think Singapore is a rival of Las Vegas in terms of the pre-COVID recovery being stronger, which means stronger margins for us and bigger growth. I think this market in Singapore has proven very resilient in the past, especially when the government's come to open the travel lanes, open the doors up. I think margins will be just fine. By the way, we didn't furlough people or lay off lots of people. We didn't squeeze people out the door. We stood by our employees. And I think we didn't necessarily maximize. We could have. We decided not to do that. And I think that's to our credit. But on the other hand, I think our business there will recur back to pre-COVID levels and probably beyond pre-COVID. And again, if Vegas is instructive, and I believe it is, the demand is going to be extraordinary in Asia. The lockdown here in Las Vegas is much shorter than the lockdown in Asia. Yet the gambling proclivity for a lot of Asian countries is stronger than Las Vegas. So anybody who thinks Singapore is not going to come back with a vengeance, I think is mistaken. The same in Macau. And of course those revenues will drive our margins. So I have no fear that we're going to return to, you know, pre-COVID margins and pre-COVID revenues exceed both. In fact, I'm, Really bullish on Singapore. It'll be the first and the best place open next year for the gamer or for the tourist or for the leisure traveler. There's going to be exceptional plans to revisit. You see where the government's going. I mean, they've indicated they're anxious to get open. Their vaccination rates are soaring. The travel lanes are being established. The neighborhood's getting better. Malaysia, Korea, Japan. Indonesia's still lagging, but coming on. So I'd use this question in time. 2022 is the turn year. So we see... margins and revenues and EBITDA is getting much more back to normal than they've been the last 24 months.
Dan Politzer
Got it. Thanks. And then just one more on Macau. I mean, when Macau does eventually recover, how do you think about your share of mass and supply GDR evolving given the opening of the Londoner, which we didn't have back in 2019? And also, I know Target is a different customer, but how do you anticipate any impact from Lisboa Palace? on your properties, and if so, if there is an impact, which ones?
Rob Goldstein
Yeah. Mr. Chun, are you still awake?
Macalester
Yeah, Rob. I think history of Macau shows every time we have large-scale, high-quality product coming in on Kotai, it helps the market. And I think when the demand comes back, it's going to be to the market's benefit and to the whole industry's benefit. that we've got good new product that customers can patronize. And that applies to Lisboa Palace, that applies to what some of our other competitors will have opened by then. And obviously, we think first and foremost is going to apply to what we've completed in Grand Suites at Four Seasons and also the London and Macau. So we're very excited and confident that when the demand returns, all these new projects, but I would say especially our projects, is going to be a growth driver for the industry. And by implication, we hope that we will achieve good market share. But I think it's much more about you know, as the history in two decades have shown, growing the overall pie. And I think in terms of segments, again, I wouldn't hesitate to say that it's going to be positive across a very broad base of segmentation, the mass, the premium mass, and so forth.
Dan Politzer
Got it. Thanks so much, guys.
Operator
Thank you. Your next question is from the line of David Katz from Jefferies. Your line is open.
Rob Goldstein
Hi, David. David, you there? David. We lost Mr. Katz.
Operator
Okay, we'll go to the next question. It's from the line of Steve Wisinski from Steeple. Your line is open.
Steve Wisinski
Hey, guys. Good afternoon. Just one question here from me. Good afternoon, Rob. Just one question for me. And Rob, I know you're probably tired of answering a bunch of hearsay questions about the renewal process. And this one is probably going to be a bit more direct. But I guess the simple question is, do you guys see a scenario out there where you are not operating any casino assets in Macau at some point in the near future? And I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's a question I think a lot of investors are pondering right now, given the vagueness that has come out of the Chinese government about what they're actually looking for. I do not.
Rob Goldstein
I see no chance of that whatsoever. I apologize if I sign a broken record, but the truth is we've been doing this for a couple of decades. We have an unparalleled track record. The whole co-tie development was one guy did that, Matt Sheldon. One guy put $15 billion in the ground of non-gaming and gaming assets One company made almost $4 billion EBITDA, and I think we have been stellar with our employees. So I remain beyond confident that we'll be operating in Macau. I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that we wouldn't be. And I'm not saying that rhetorically. I mean that sincerely. Every indication we've gotten is the opposite. So we, again, I'm very proud of our track record, proud of our development, private investment, but I think the government has recognized we've been an awfully good licensee and partner and friend to China and Macau, and we're eager to be back there. So, no, I don't believe that's a possibility.
Steve Wisinski
Okay, great. Thanks, Michael and Rob. Sure. Anybody else?
Operator
Your final question is from the line of David Katz from Jefferies. Your line is open.
David Katz
Hi, all. Can you hear me now? It is
Rob Goldstein
Yeah, we thought you fell asleep on this because you're in Macau.
David Katz
There is no sleeping at Jeffries. What I was really hoping to have the team's perspective on is really VIP gaming because we do spend a fair amount of time talking with investors, with people on the ground, et cetera, around what the vip what the future of the vip business really looks like you know there have been some sort of public pressures on it um you know talk about you know currency changes and things like that that you know presumably would have some impact what does the solid recovered core look like in vip
Rob Goldstein
Yeah, I just want Grant to take that question as he lives and breathes. You're talking Macau, I assume, and the whole junket issue, et cetera, right? Yeah, yes. Okay. So let's begin with a little bit of historical perspective. Again, for the 20-plus years we've been doing business in Macau, we've heard this, you know, this isn't going to work, that's not going to work, you know, the revenues will never go anywhere. We've been hearing this for off and on. Segments are going to fall apart. The latest thing is to say the VIP is going to go away because of junkets. I just remain a huge believer in that market. of all segments. Obviously, we've made our strength in the mass premium math. That's been our bread and butter. It will continue to be, but I don't think she's ever discounted. Those who have discounted this segment have done it at their own peril. I think it could move to a different channel, a different way of being available, but gamers are going to keep happening in all segments in the county. As a precursor to the Grant's comments, I think you have to realize how powerful this market has been. The growth has been Unbelievable. None of us who started back in 2002, 2003, and 2004 never could have dreamed the way every segment just developed. You know, in the 2010, 11, 12 era, it was the junkets that drove Macalester and morphed into a premium mass market and now a premium mass mass market. And again, our company has been more focused on those base mass and premium mass segments. But the VIP has served the market very well. So I think, you know, we emerged in a different form the different channels of distribution. And that's my take. Grant, you're much closer to this, so please speak up.
Macalester
No, I think you said it very well, Rob. I think it's important to remember, again, you know, the proportion of profit coming from that segment, especially I think you're more referencing the junket segment versus our own VIP business. It's very, very small. It's really low single digit pre-COVID segment. So, I know people spend a lot of time talking about it, but our business is really geared to that large-scale destination resort with premium mass, mass, the leisure, the FIT, and the future is going to be that structural growth in those segments, as well as the non-gaming, the retail, the mice. And so that's where really our reinvestments and our asset base have really focused on.
Rob Goldstein
I think the driver, Grant's point, the driver of that market is always going to be, well, we're focused on lifestyle, extraordinary entertainment, restaurants, retail, rooms. That's where our investment, you'll see in London, that's where the focus was. Before Seton, it was more towards the very high-end premium mass. No matter what form it takes, the gambling is going to just keep growing over there, and the desire to come to Macau is going to grow. So whether it be the new assets we built for another company, it just enhances the market. And I don't think there will ever be a lack of customers or lack of visitors to Macau. The problem is going to be when the market comes roaring back in whatever it is, 22 or whatever, I think the problem is going to be lack of capacity, lack of rooms. That market is always in burden by it needs new capacity, it needs new lodgings. Because whether it be base mask, premium mask, it is no longer a Hong Kong dependent overnight market. It's a stay overnight market. It's a leisure market. It's a business market. It's a spectacular market. And we're going to be there with everybody else trying to get our fair share. And I think our new assets, if you ever get to see them, and we're hoping to next year, are going to surprise you. What we've done with the Londoner in four seasons is the best thing we've ever done, in my opinion. So we look forward to getting back to Macau and getting back to business.
Operator
Thanks, David. Thank you, speakers. There are no more questions. And ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you all for joining. You may now disconnect.
Disclaimer