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Operator
Conference Call Operator
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the SANS first quarter 2024 earnings call. At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen-only mode. We will open the floor for your questions and comments following the presentation. It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Mr. Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at SANS. Sir, the floor is yours.
Daniel Briggs
Senior Vice President of Investor Relations
Thank you, Paul. Joining the call today are Rob Goldstein, our Chairman and CEO, Patrick Dumont, our President and COO, Dr. Wilfred Wong, Executive Vice Chairman of SANS China, and Grant Chung. CEO and President of SanchChina, and EVP of Asia Operations. Today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements. We will be making these statements under the safe harbor provision of federal securities laws. The company's actual results may differ materially from the results reflected in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we'll discuss non-GAAP measures. Reconciliations for the most comparable GAAP financial measure are included in our press release. We have posted an earnings presentation on our website. We will refer to that presentation during the call. Finally, for the Q&A session, we ask those with interest to please pose one question and one follow-up so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. This presentation is being recorded. I'll now turn the call over to Rob.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Thanks, Dan, and thanks for joining us today. The Macau market continues to grow as it has for each of the past five quarters. Since the reopening in early 2023, the annual run rate of the market has grown every quarter from $17 billion in Q1 of last year to $22 billion, then $24 billion, then $26 billion, now reaching $28 billion in annualized gain revenue. We remain completely confident in the future growth of the Macau market. I've said in the past that the Macau market will grow to $30 billion, then $35 billion, then $40 billion and beyond in the years ahead. I remain steadfast in that belief. We remain equally confident in our business strategy to invest in both the quality and scale of our market-leading assets in Macau. Our capital investment programs ensure that we will continue to be the market leader in years ahead. Our investments position us to grow faster than the market over the long term to grow our share of EBITDA on the market and to generate industry-leading returns on investment capital. Turning to our current financial results on the cap, we delivered a solid result for the quarter despite the disruption of our ongoing capital investment programs. SEL continues to lead the market in gaining and non-gaining revenue and most importantly, in the market share of Eventop. Because of our market-leading investments, we will capture high-value, high-margin tourism over the long run. We have a unique competitive position in terms of scale, quality, and diversity of product offerings. Upon completion of the second phase of the London and our Code Tyrene redevelopment program, our product advantage will be more substantial than ever. Turning to Singapore, we delivered a record quarter. We believe it's a record for the industry. The team has done an extraordinary job, and this is what happens when a superior product is located in the proper market. Our financial results in Singapore reflect the impact of our capital investment programs and our service capabilities. The appeal of Singapore as its tourism destination and the robust entertainment and lifestyle event calendar also contribute to the growth at MDS. As we complete the balance of our investment programs, there will be a lot more runway for growth in the future. Thanks for joining us today. I'll turn it over to Patrick for more detail.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Thanks, Rob. Macau EBITDA was $610 million. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been higher by $31 million. When adjusted for lower than expected hold in the rolling segment, our EBITDA margin would have been 34.4% or up 308 basis points compared to the first quarter of 2023. This highlights our focus on cost discipline and profitability. The ongoing capital investment programs at the Londoner and at the Kotai Arena had an impact on our results this quarter. The Kotai Arena was closed for renovation in January this year. After the significant reinvestment and renovation, the arena is expected to reopen in November. In terms of the second phase of the Londoner, we have now commenced the room renovation on the first Sheraton Tower. We plan the completion of the first tower by year end and the second tower by golden week in May of 2025. The renovation of the casino on the Sheridan side of London will commence in May of this year, with the reopening scheduled for December of 2024. While there will be ongoing disruption from these capital projects, as these products come online between the end of 2024 and the first half of 2025, our competitive position will be stronger than ever. The scale, quality, and diversity of products will be better than we have ever offered before. They will be unmatched in the market. Turning to Singapore, MBS's EBITDA came in at $597 million. an all-time record for the property and for the industry. Our strong results reflect the impact of high-quality investment in market-leading products. Had we held as expected in our rolling play segment, EBITDA would have been $77 million lower. Had we held as expected in the rolling play segment, MBS EBITDA margin would have been 49.1% or 180 basis points higher than in Q1 of 2023. We have now completed both Tower 1 and Tower 2 of the Marina Bay Sands hotel refurbishment. While we have substantially completed the original $1 billion CapEx program, we are still in initial stages of realizing the benefits of these new products. We have now commenced the next phase of our capital investment program at Marina Bay Sands, the $750 million renovation that includes Tower 3. Tower 3 is scheduled to be completed by the second quarter of next year. This will support further growth in 2025 and beyond. Turning to our program to return capital to shareholders, we repurchased $450 million of LVS stock during the quarter. We also paid our recurring quarterly dividend. In addition, LVS has completed the previously announced purchase of $250 million of SEL stock, which increases the parent company's ownership interest in SEL to approximately 71%. We continue to see value in both repurchasing LVS stock and increasing our ownership interest in SEL. We look forward to continuing to utilize the company's capital return program to increase return to shareholders in the future. Thanks again for joining us all today. Now let's take some questions.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, the floor is now open for questions. If you would like to enter the queue to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad now. If listening on speakerphone today, please pick up your handset to provide optimum sound quality. Also, we ask each participant to limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please hold a moment while we poll for questions. And the first question today is coming from Stephen Grambling from Morgan Stanley. Stephen, your line is live. Hey, thanks so much.
Stephen Grambling
Morgan Stanley
You talked to the March hire for the market in Macau, but this quarter looks like the margin flow through and even actually went in the other direction. How should we be thinking about flow through in Macau and operating expenses going forward in that market?
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Yeah, I just want to say one thing before we turn over to Grant. I think some of this has to do in Macau with some of the disruption that we experienced during the quarter. So when we take the arena out in January, we lose the benefit of our entertainment programs during a peak period. That did have an impact. So when you look at our operation, compared to Q1 of last year, Q1 of last year, we were coming out of the pandemic, and it really took a while for visitation to get started again. This year, unfortunately, we did this to ourselves. We started renovating our arena. It's a very powerful asset. It has lots of entertainment. It went through the Chinese New Year period. And unfortunately, with some hotel rooms out and the arena out, we felt it on the revenue side. So as we've said before, as the market continues to grow, we will do well. We have the best product. We've invested the most in non-gaming assets. We have the most amenities to offer to our patrons. And they're very high quality. Diversity in retail, diversity of food and beverage, diversity in entertainment, which is very important. Unfortunately, we didn't have that tool this quarter. in full swing. You know, we only had the London Arena, which is good, but it can't compete with the Koh Thai Arena. So I think for us, as the revenues continue to grow, as you've seen in prior quarters, our margins will fall in line. And you see that in the Venetian, as the revenues are where they need to be, the margins fall in line as well. So that's sort of the headline from the margin performance this quarter. I do want to turn it over to Grant to see if he has an additional caller.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yeah, thanks, Patrick. Yeah, I think the most important point still, the GGR is growing in the market. And I think if you look at our profitability at this level of GGR, I think we should be looking at low to mid 30s in operating margin, EBITDA margin. And we're right at the high end of the range there. Obviously, each quarter, there's seasonality relating to different parts of the business, the revenue mix. So the first quarter, I think 34.4% in terms of the underlying margin is a really good number. I think 2024 is going to be one that is impacted by our capital works and the renovations that Patrick referenced also in his opening remarks. We have obviously started the hotel renovation in the first part of Sheraton and we're probably down about 500-600 rooms in the first quarter on average in that hotel. But the number of keys that will be out of the inventory will increase further in the second and third quarters. And of course, Coach Irina, as Patrick referenced, that's always been a core part of our content programming. content offering and we were able to offer plenty of shows at the London Arena but if you just compare just the sheer number of shows that we had in the first quarter we had 12 shows compared with the fourth quarter last year we had 31 shows it's a big difference and obviously in terms of capacity there's a big difference so the attendance per show obviously was much higher in the fourth quarter as well. So hopefully that gives you some color in terms of the disruption that's had on our business with the arena being closed for renovation. And as I said, the hotel renovation is ongoing and you're going to see more keys out of inventory in the next couple quarters.
Stephen Grambling
Morgan Stanley
And maybe one clarification, I guess in the quarter industry-wide, I'm not sure, maybe I missed this in the presentation or I haven't seen the slides, but is VIP, did VIP actually grow faster than mass overall in the first quarter for the industry? And how are you thinking about base mass versus premium mass from here? I know you kind of touched on this a little bit, but I'd be curious about the industry-wide kind of thought process.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Rob, should I take that?
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yes, you're right. I think if you look at the slides, the mass revenues are sequentially around 4% and the overall GGR for the quarter grew at 6% sequentially. So yes, the VIP revenues in the market as a whole grew faster than the mass revenues Q and Q. I think in terms of the premium mass versus base mass, again, I think you can see from our slides, you know, premium mass grew slightly faster for us in this quarter, but the difference is not material when you account for things like whole percentage and patron counts and so forth. So I wouldn't say there's a material divergence in the growth rates between a premium mass and base mass, at least for our business for the quarter.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
You know, I think it's important to note that it's important that the visitation still isn't likely to be. Obviously, there's still millions of people have not come versus the 2019 visitation numbers. We believe long-term visitation GGRs can grow, whether the base or premium will get more than our fair share. And I think we've seen, obviously, I'll say the obvious, the promotional situation, the market has changed. There's more people consenting, doing things. And once everyone starts playing that game, I believe that will... resolve itself. We believe that assets will prevail. We believe London will be an extraordinary asset, much like it's happening in Singapore. I think our results in Singapore reflect a fully developed program, and the execution in Singapore shows what can be done when you have the right kind of assets. When you've been done in Singapore, the numbers are extraordinary. The same will happen in our business, in Macau, in time. As GGOs accelerate, and they will, visitation accelerates, and it will. We'll continue to be margin-focused, EBITDA-focused, and get more than a fair share, and assets will prevail over promotions from our perspective.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Got it. Thanks. I'll jump back in the queue. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Carlo Santorelli from Deutsche Bank. Carlo, your line is live. Hi, guys. Thank you.
Carlo Santorelli
Deutsche Bank
Just following up on the first quarter margin, If I look at the fourth quarter, for example, and kind of extract the big element of turnover rent that comes in and obviously very high flow through, it looks like margins are probably fairly similar. So it doesn't seem like a lot changed on that front. Is that accurate or am I missing something else seasonally there?
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Primarily, you're correct, Paul. That's a fair statement to make. The turnover rent does, as you know, as you noted, occur in the fourth quarter. And it's material. Grant, do you want to add to that?
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yeah, exactly. You're right.
Carlo Santorelli
Deutsche Bank
Great. Thank you. And if I could, just one follow-up on capital allocation. Obviously, over $400 million of buyback in this quarter. As you guys think about the capital needs here going forward, the stuff that you've announced, the stuff that obviously is being contemplated and looking at budgets around and whatnot, Do you feel like this pace is adequate and where you want to be as you look throughout the balance of this year?
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Yeah, so I think first off, I just want to say we see value in both equities. And I think we have a very long-term bullish view, given the market opportunity for growth, our market-leading investments and our assets, and just how we feel about the opportunities of both markets that we have. So, you know, as we said before, we're going to be overweight, share our purchases. You know, as we think about future capital returns, we are going to be more heavily weighted towards share purchases than dividends. We think that our purchases are going to be more accretive than dividends over time, and we want to shrink that denominator. And so I think we're going to look to make purchases that are consistent with our share authorization by the board and with prior practice. And I think we'll look to be a little bit opportunistic. We may vary levels, but I think we're going to continue to be aggressive in the market. I mean, I think you see with the $450 million increase LVS shares, the SEL share repurchases. We think this represents an interesting opportunity, just a moment in time. And so we're going to try to take advantage of it. We happen to have a very strong balance sheet. We have a lot of liquidity and we tend to put it to use. So I think we're pretty happy with where the program has taken us so far and we'll continue to use it. And we'll see how it goes across the year. But we're going to look to repurchase more shares.
Carlo Santorelli
Deutsche Bank
Thanks for that, Patrick. Just one aside, guys, I'm not sure the slides are actually posted yet. It certainly could be user error, but it looks like that they haven't posted yet for the first quarter.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yeah, we're working on it.
Carlo Santorelli
Deutsche Bank
Thank you.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Joe Gref from JP Morgan. Joe, your line is live.
Joe Gref
JP Morgan
Hey, everybody. I was hoping one of you could help quantify the revenue and EBITDA impact from the renovations going on at Moderna and the Kodai Arena. And then do you see that renovation disruption impact accelerating? And when do you start to see that decelerate? I know you kind of talked about the the two towers and when they open up, but to kind of help understand that renovation impact in terms of how you're seeing it, I think would be helpful for everybody.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Yeah, I don't know that we can necessarily quantify accurately what the impact was because we can't know what we displaced. You heard Grant describe the number of missing shows and the number of people typically will go to those shows in the coterie. And you get a sense of the type of high quality patron that we bring in when we have live entertainment. And it is impactful. You know, I think Q1 typically is a very powerful quarter for us, as is Q4. And you can kind of see the difference that the impact had for entertainment. You know, we made a decision that if we take the arena offline and do it and make it one of the highest quality arenas in Asia, then the long run we will benefit from the entertainment. And so we decided to do it as quickly as possible. And so that meant taking it offline in January this year and trying to get it done by October, November. And so once we do that, we're going to have an incredibly high-quality arena with amenities that we've never had before. So it will make us more competitive in the market and actually drive additional high-quality tourism from both traditional markets and other markets. It will also help drive high-quality tourism from our core customer base and allow for more repeat visits from our high-value customers. We're very excited about the opportunities this new entertainment asset will present to us. Unfortunately, we're going to take some pain while it's offline. And that really started in January of this year. I can't quantify the exact amount, but you hear the count from Grant and you realize that it is not immaterial. And then the other side is we're taking the Sheraton out. And when we're done, it's going to be one of our best properties in Macau. The design will be high level. The fundamentals of the Sheraton Tower are quite good. Both towers are quite good. they're actually a little bit better than the existing londoner side believe it or not uh the layout of the casino will be very good uh the additional food and beverage amenities that we can add and i think the connectivity will be uh a very good driver of future results for that property that's the reason why we're pretty confident that the result when it's done will be that uh or exceed uh that of the venetian so i i think for us we're we're doing it now uh it is going to be disruptive Uh, the worst is going to be across the summer when we have the lowest key count that we've had since we really opened what was then central because we're taking out that we're going to take the Sheridan out. And so it's going to be more of this disruption across the summer. But then hopefully, as keys come back online. across the phasing, and as we get the arena back, let's call it October, November, we'll have a much more powerful set of assets to drive tourism and create cash flow. So there will be disruption. I can't quantify it for you, but it's not going to be immaterial. Grant, I don't know if you have other things you'd like to add to that.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
I think you covered it perfectly. I think the only thing I supplement is, yeah, London at phase one really gave us that elevation in the shared quality of product. as well as a very successful rebranding and repositioning of the entire property. But what phase two gives us is that scale, that scale of high-quality product and the diversity of it, and that's when I think the earnings power of this resort will be fundamentally transformed.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
I believe that we think... We think once London is done, Joe will have the number one and two assets in Macau by far. Not sure who will be in front, but that company arena gives us a unique position for 25 years ahead to dominate the market in terms of the largest resorts and those proper resorts, both one and two.
Joe Gref
JP Morgan
Great. Thanks, Rob. You may have answered my follow-up question indirectly on your prior margin commentary. And maybe this is something Grant could talk about, but can you talk about the level of the markets, premium S, reinvestment levels? Has that been pretty consistent in the first quarter and what you're seeing year to date versus how the end of the year finished? Or is there any kind of trend change on that front? That's all for me. Thanks.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Thanks, Joe. For us, yes, our profitability, the structure of a margin in every segment actually, quarter on quarter, very consistent, no significant changes there. And that obviously fed through to the result that the earlier question described, which is that we had a very consistent margin, quarter on quarter, despite obviously some inflation in the payroll costs due to holiday pay and salary increases.
Joe Gref
JP Morgan
My question, maybe I didn't explain it that clearly. The level of premium mass reinvestment from your competitors, how would you characterize that year-to-date versus the end of last year?
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Oh, sorry. You're talking about the overall market now?
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Yes.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
It was direct investment, right? Investment to customers. I think the promotion activities... levels are relatively intense right now. Is it higher than Q4? I don't think so, but it comes and goes and has ups and downs. But I think over time, there really isn't any necessity in this market to be too aggressive on promotions. The demand and supply constraint market, the quality of supply is exceptional. And we are a big contributor to that. And as GGR rises, that becomes even less of an issue over time. And for us, it doesn't matter. We stick to our strategy, which is, as Rob referenced, product-based. It's driven off our asset base, the upgrades we're making, the quality of the assets, and the services that go with that. In addition to the programming the content programming and you know like we talked about we are very big believes in that Entertainment being co-offering. That's why we're investing this 200 million dollars in the upgrade of Kotar Arena So yeah, when it's all said and done we believe that TTR continues to rise our asset base is going to be better than before and better than ever and And that's the way we're going to compete. And that's the only way we think we can compete on a sustainable and profitable basis is really based on the quality execution of a product and the services that go with that.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Joe, we're obviously keenly aware of the commercial environment in Cal. We're certainly aware of what's happening in Cal with promotions, but we remain steadfast in our belief that Our product, once completed, will be superior. The scale is greater. The market will grow. And that's how we'll capture our fair share and remain focused on margins and keeping our EBITDA on the go. We're not going to play the game of chasing $10 more for promotions. We don't think it's our business and who we are. We're an asset-driven company with quality assets and scale. And again, we've proven that time and time again. And once London is done, the arena will be just what we want it to be in terms of market leading, the margin of the assets in the capital.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Sean Kelly from Bank of America. Sean, your line is live.
Sean Kelly
Bank of America
Hi, good afternoon, everyone. Sorry if I'm beating the dead horse here, but I did want to just kind of stick with the margin commentary, but I'll give it a little bit of a longer term view. My question is really just trying to get a sense of You know, what would it take to get back to, let's call it the mid to high 30s on margins here? Is what we're seeing today and now increasingly expecting for the balance of 24 more about customer mix, or is it about sort of one-time call-outs around renovations and maybe some lost very high margin non-gaming revenue?
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
So it's a very interesting question, and it's the right question to ask. So as these properties reach run rate, so as they reach their full potential, the margin should be upper 30s. Sorry, I think someone in Sunshine put us on hold. Please excuse us. So, you know, we think about margins in the upper 30s. If you look at the performance of the Venetian, that's a good benchmark, right? It was impacted a little bit this quarter again, also by the entertainment not being there in the Kotai arena. Um, but and and mix wise to be fair pre pandemic, it had more mass play and that's higher margin. And so, as tourism returns, so as visitation increases. Which has more mass play, and we have plenty of capacity for it. So, if you look at our, our asset base, the scale of the assets that we have, the amenities we have, we can accommodate a lot of math play. And we have the positions to do it. And so, for us, as visitation shows up and continues to an upward trend, our assets are ready to take that visitation revenue will grow margins will grow and they will normalize back towards a more traditional mix. That being said, the Londoner has the opportunity to also bring a lot of high value tourism. So we're carrying the expense base without the revenue. Right? So we have the, we have the team members, we have the, we have all the things going on that you'd have if we're fully operating, but it's not fully operating yet. So the margins naturally are not going to look right. So as the revenue comes in, and as the visitation comes in, as the patrons come in, as the hotel is completed, and as the rest of the amenities are done, that will look more normal. The only problem is it's in 25. So we have a little bit of time that we have to get through with this investment. Are there some high value things that are very high margin that we're missing because of entertainment or ease out? Yes, that's true. But when you look at the asset base that we have, the experience that we have, the team that we have there, their ability to execute it, how they've executed so far, and the asset base that we're creating with these investments, We're going to be in a great position and the margins we believe will get there, but we need visitation to continue. That will be helpful for the Venetian. It'll be helpful for the mass to recover. We need to have all of our assets in line. So that's the co-tire arena to be finished and the Sheridan to become fully Londonerized. That's a word and get to our full key count. And then you'll see the true power of these assets and the margins will get there. we have a lifestyle program that we run with high quality amenities if you haven't been to macao you haven't seen we've done i would encourage you to do it it's it's not it's not simply one thing it's not simply hospitality it's not simply gaming it's not simply retail it's an ecosystem that allows our customers to travel around all of our assets and have an experience they can't get anyplace else and that's really what we have on offer and it's unique And it's been invested in, and it will continue to get better. So for us, as Rob said, we're not chasing promotional activity. We're chasing asset development. And that will drive our success.
Sean Kelly
Bank of America
Thanks, Patrick, and appreciate the insight. As a quick follow-up, for whoever's appropriate, just looking at Singapore, I mean, obviously a breakout quarter with a run rate above, you know, $500 million. There were some one-time things in that market, you know, Taylor Swift, I believe, being one. And then, of course, which I think you called out, event activity, broadly speaking. But also, there was a change in, I think, Chinese visa policies that was probably, you know, potentially fruitful for the market. So just the big question here is, what's the right run rate? And do you think, you know, again, maybe event activity agnostic? we could sustain above the $500 million mark? And are we kind of off to the race here? And notwithstanding the fact that even that number sounds like it included a little bit of Tower 3 disruption.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
I think the first thing you should note is that the building is still under renovation. I think we believe $500 million a quarter annualized is very doable and more. And the most important thing you should note is two things. The growth in Singapore as a desirable destination is soaring. It's not just Taylor Swift. It's Bruno Mars. It's the Hamilton Show. It's endless events, F1. It's a juggernaut. And really, it's become accelerated. This market has become very special in a very short order. And I think that's a tribute to government there and to programs happening, entertainment, et cetera. So Singapore is highly desirable. And yes, that's very sustainable. And as good as Taylor Swift was, there's a lot more in the pipeline that will make that continue. Secondly, our building had less than 200 top tier suites. Upon completion, we'll have an excess of 700. The sweet spot of the market is the premium mass and super premium mass rolling, non-rolling. I think we're almost approaching a billion dollars a slot when we may be out of bullets there as we get more capacity. But this is a very special market. Our building is a special building. I don't think there's any reason to doubt that 520, 540, 600, look, this is going to keep growing. This is a great place to be. We're lucky to be there. We're lucky that the government is very supportive, an excellent team in place. But most importantly, the assets, it didn't happen by luck. We are doing, spending a lot of money to make sure those assets are superb, and the customers come back time and time again. The real question is what happens when the building has four wheels instead of three? That's going to happen later this year in early 2025. When those suites are rolled out, and they're great suites, they're phenomenal suites, can that building go to two, two, two, four, two, five? It can, and it will. And I think, again, what we're trying to tell you about Macau is We're frustrated by Macau. The operating environment is more difficult. We're under construction, a self-inflicted wound. But once we emulate in Macau, we've done in Singapore, the same thing will prevail. Londoner and nation neck and neck to drive that market. And again, I think the government recently talked about a lot of things. They're trying to increase tourism, visas, et cetera. We see a real nice support system coming out of Macau. And we're grateful to the government for recognizing a session this week about increased tourism, increased entertainment. We're lucky to be in two very, very special places. And yes, Singapore can do 500. They can do 550. It's not about Taylor Swift. It's about a great market, a great asset, a team running it.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you all.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Robin Farley from UBS. Robin, your line is last.
Robin Farley
UBS
Great, thanks. I just wanted to circle back. You were commenting earlier, and the slides were not up yet, so I haven't been able to go through them, but it sounded like you were saying that your sequential growth in mass and premium were both at a similar rate sequentially, and just wondering if there's anything to add, any color around that, since the market has, generally speaking, been seeing better premium mass recovery, just any color you'd add there.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Grant, I think you should take that. Grant?
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yeah, Robin. I don't know if the deck is up. It's up now. It's up now, Grant. It's up, guys. Yeah. So if you look at premium masks, when we're up 2% quarter-on-quarter and base masks, we're down 3% quarter-on-quarter. But I think my point earlier is The difference is here and there. It could be related to any number of, I think, non-substantive factors. I wouldn't describe this as a divergence in trend, but this quarter we just did slightly better in premium mass versus base mass. Visitations continue, just like we see the wider market growing. Our property visitations actually grew sequentially as well. Nothing significant to remark on in terms of the segment divergence.
Robin Farley
UBS
Okay, great. That's helpful. Thank you. And just any thoughts around New York timing and your expectations there? Sort of anything new to add there? Thanks.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Yeah, we're very disappointed by New York. I mean, we've been working there for a long time, and we thought it was going to happen in 24. That was the state. Now they're saying 25 or 26, but I don't think we have any real clarity. And to be honest with you, it's confusing and disappointing because we've done a lot of work in New York and put a lot of time into it. So I have no guidance because I don't really know what to tell you with candor and insight. We just don't know about New York. And we wish they'd figure it out and let us know. We just don't know. So we'll remain hopeful that things turn around there.
Robin Farley
UBS
Okay, great. Thank you.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Thanks for all that.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Vitaly Umansky from Seaports. Vitaly, your line is live.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Good morning, guys.
Vitaly Umansky
Seaports
I think maybe switching over to Singapore, if we think about kind of quantifying the effect of what the renovations at that property have already done, And Rob, you talked about potentially this property getting up to about 2.4, 2.5 billion. In theory, once the renovations are done in the first phase of the property, where do we see kind of constraints being built in? Because if you look at kind of occupancy rates in the hotel rooms today, and we look at ADRs, they continue to expand. At some point, we're going to reach a limit as to how many rooms can be filled. And then we're talking about trying to fill rooms with higher value customers. So when we think about, before we get to the expansion, where is that constraint and how quickly do you think we can get there?
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
That's a good question. I think, unfortunately, it's probably an answer that we've seen that we never dreamed the spots of a billion dollars on property if they're approaching that. We never dreamed that in this environment so quickly after COVID, we reached the kind of epic levels we're seeing the growth in the premium masses and powerful, and I was enjoying Grant on the call last week, you know, telling us there's still a drop in the bucket. There's so much more to go. And so I think the growth will come out of this super premium mask going non-rolling. I don't think ADR is all that impactful because hopefully someday we won't sell many rooms. This will be a product that is mostly, you know, gaming customers in the rooms, I hope. The suites we're building are just exemplary, and I think that this product is only going to have more good days ahead. I use two to five as a goal for our company as the decade progresses. It's very attainable. It reached $600 million almost this quarter. It's very stimulating. It's very exciting. But the cap's going to be in capacity. It's already a problem for us in terms of slot machines. It'll be a room problem. We wish we had more exposure to Singapore. That's why we're building more product. This is a very, very special place that people gravitate to. And as Singapore does its job as a lifestyle entertainment company, exciting place to visit, the demand's going to grow. So the only concern we have in Singapore is how quickly we get there. Once these suites are unleashed in the market and they see it, I think we'll have some very bright days ahead. But obviously, it's capacity constraint. We have so many rooms. We have so many slot machines. And I don't worry about getting there. I just think we get there. We'll be disappointed we can't have more exposure. And that's what we're building things to.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Hey, Vitaly, one thing. And welcome back to the call. I think the key thing for us is we have a very strong view of the future success of Singapore. So strong that we're investing a couple billion dollars in this property, and we're looking to hire two as quickly as we can. We think that this market is benefiting from a lot of the factors that make Singapore Singapore. Great infrastructure, strong, stable government, great investment, great policy. And to be fair, you're seeing the result of it. And it's only our business. many businesses in Singapore. And so I think that that's a very helpful indicator. But more importantly, the more other investment that goes into Singapore will help drive further visitation. So the infrastructure is already there. The real question is how many more hotels will go in. We feel very strongly that the more hotel rooms are added will help add to the critical mass of tourism that Singapore already has today. If you look at the wealth creation going around in Southeast Asia, it's pretty substantial. The last four years, even during the pandemic, have been pretty meaningful. And there are a lot of customers that are new to Singapore, new to Marina Bay Sands, and they're affluent and very successful. And they want to consume and they want to take advantage of the Singapore things Singapore has on offer. And so we feel very strongly about the future visitation in Singapore. It's an interesting question. Where is the where is the peak of demand? We don't really see it right now. What we see is a supply constraint. Right. When you look at who's trying to come to Singapore and the activities that are going on, we feel very strongly about future investment.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
We think it's there.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Thanks, Patrick and Rob.
Vitaly Umansky
Seaports
Maybe just a follow-up, switching gears to Macau. And Grant, you talked a little bit about kind of the base mass and the growth you've seen in the quarter is very similar to premium. But I think overall, if we kind of think about fans in Macau, obviously, you're very strong in the direct VIP business. You're very strong in the premium business. But where you have a massive competitive advantage, in my view, is just your scale, which then talks about base mass and the higher margin available from base mass. If you look at the recovery in overall base mass, it has not been as strong as the more premium end of the market. Can you maybe give an explanation as to why you think that is, if you agree with that statement? How does the market maybe change or need to change over the next couple of quarters in order to get some of that base mass back, which I think would benefit SANS relative to others in a much stronger way?
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yeah, thanks. Brad, you want to go ahead? Yeah, sure, Patrick. Yeah, I'll take it. I think first point is I agree we have a huge advantage with our scale, but I think the scale advantage speaks to all the segments. I think if you looked at historically how the company has developed, absolutely the base mass with our scale, that has been a core advantage. but in the sense of how we described all of these capital investments that we're making, especially in London, the scale we have on the quality of the premium product is really unprecedented. So I think our scale advantage will apply to all segments, in my view. Specifically on base mass, If you look at our actual numbers, the way we break it out between premium mass and base mass through the recovery since the reopening after the COVID restrictions, actually they're not too dissimilar now in terms of rate of recovery from a volume and revenue perspective. But it is true that in terms of customer count or patron hours, we're still missing more from the base mass. So really it's two things it tells you. One is the quality of patronage has risen significantly because the revenue per patron is higher than before COVID. And secondly, there is still room for that base mass revenue and visitation to further recover. And I think there are many reasons, and it's hard to specifically attribute to one or two factors. But I think over time, especially as the economy improves, and also I think people, the distribution of content in terms of the lifestyle, the destination attractions, all of the events, all of the non-gaming products and assets and events that are actually distributed out there. I think you'll see a progressive improvement in that base mass segment, and obviously we will be the best place to capture that growth when that comes.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Thanks, Grant. That's helpful.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Chad Baynon from Macquarie. Chad, your line is live.
Chad Baynon
Macquarie
Afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. And thanks for posting the slides on slide 44 the flags of interest Remain the same as what we've seen in the past couple decks Macau Singapore New York and you've talked through all these there's been some recent discussions around Thailand and some even think that an integrated resort could open in Thailand maybe even ahead of Japan so wondering if you could opine on your views I know early, but it could this market be big enough to Could a resort generate the cash flow meaningful enough for you guys to look at the market? Any views there? Thanks.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
Yeah, we absolutely have interest in Thailand. To your point, it could happen quicker than Japan. That'd be conceivable. It's early days, though, and we still have work to do with the numbers and understanding it. It's a very, very exciting market on a lot of levels. And just the sheer size of populations, the accessibility... and the willingness of people to travel to Thailand. It's obviously, I think, the number one resort destination city in Asia. So, yeah, we're very interested. But, again, it's only in Asia. I agree with your comments. It could be faster than Japan, which is possible. Certainly, there seems to be a lot of pent-up desire from both business and government to work towards this. So we're interested. We're listening. We're doing the work to find out what makes sense for us there, and we'll keep you posted.
Chad Baynon
Macquarie
Thank you. And then on the P&L statement, investors are increasingly looking at EPS, just given what you're generating and kind of where the stock is trading. I believe there was a tax benefit in Q1. Could you talk to that potential benefit and then any additional color in terms of will the tax rate start to look similar to what we saw in prior years, given your mix of Singapore and Macau? Thanks.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
I'll answer this in reverse. Yes, it will look more normal. It was a one-time item. It was related to a reversal in Macau, $57 million. But the tax rate will look more normal going forward.
Chad Baynon
Macquarie
Thanks, Patrick. Appreciate it, guys.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
No problem.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from David Katz from Jefferies. David, your line is live.
Daniel Pulitzer
Wells Fargo
Hi, evening. Thanks for taking my questions. When we look at the Macau strategy in view of the renovations that are going on this year. I would think about, you know, reinvestment credit, referral programs that people are talking about. What's your philosophy on those this year? And do you sort of dial them back until next year? Or how should we think about that?
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
I'm not sure I understand your question. Would we dial back our investment programs to go fund renovations? Is that your question?
Daniel Pulitzer
Wells Fargo
That's right. Level of conservatism versus aggressiveness and sort of how you... No, no, we're not going to... We will not dial back.
Rob Goldstein
Chairman and CEO
We just may not be as aggressive as some of the... You know the competitive pressures on the promotional front right now. It's been talked about quite a bit. We're not believers in that approach. We're believers in we make our buildings the best in class. We have the scale. We have the lifestyle. We just believe long-term GTRs will grow We'll participate in that. We'll be very, very adherent to good margins, and that's an important part of our business. But no, we won't dial back our current reinvestment strategy. We won't necessarily dial it up either to compete in the market right now. So this will be a year of reinvestment, as I think Patrick and Grant alluded to, both the arena and the Londoner. But we're not going to pull back. If anything, we'll stay consistent.
Daniel Pulitzer
Wells Fargo
Perfect. And I wanted to just ask about one of the slides we were you show your maturities, you know, forthcoming, 25, 26, any sort of updated thoughts about, you know, how or when you're approaching those? And that's it for me.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Yeah. So, you know, we're going to look to deal with – so if you go to page 32, which I think you're referring to, and you look at the LVS maturities, we should deal with those in short order. That's kind of our intent. And then in August of 25, we have the billion aid that you see at the SCL level. We'll address those in due time. We mentioned that we wanted to bring down our total debt level at SCL, given that we borrowed during the pandemic. So you'll see us reduce the quantum of debt there. And then as part of the MBS credit facility, we'll address that, of course, along with the IR2 start. So that's kind of how we'll deal with our capital structure. You'll see us turn that out. as we've done previously.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Perfect. Thanks. Thank you. The next question will be from Daniel Pulitzer from Wells Fargo. Daniel, your line is live.
David Katz
Jefferies
Hey, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. First one on Macau. This is, I think, the second quarter in a row your mass shares declined a little bit. Obviously, there was a lot of different factors this quarter. But you could kind of maybe give us a little bit more color. Is this really just disruption, heightened promotional levels, or is there a difference in the customer that you're seeing coming into the market, or maybe something else altogether that's kind of driving the market share shifts we're seeing on the mass side?
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Yeah, I do want to point out before Grant answers this question that when we have less revenue because of disruption, we'll have less market share. So I do want to point out that with the arena being out with less revenue and slightly lower margin because of the impact, having some hotel rooms out, that our market share will be impacted because it's the same thing. So with that, I'll just turn it over to Grant.
Grant Chung
CEO and President of SanchChina, EVP of Asia Operations
Yeah, I think it's hard to say which factors. I mean, you have a promotion environment out there that people have been talking about and that Rob referenced. You have obviously the disruptions that we've encountered because of our own projects. But on the other hand, you know, it's also just looking at a very short time period here and there. So, yes, our mass revenues were flat for the quarter, and the market grew 3%, 4%. But, you know, there's also, you know, a lot of factors that, you know, could have swung our way during the quarter and we would have been much closer to the market growth rate. So I wouldn't draw too big a conclusion from that. If you look at historically how we've sustained our share of EBITDA in a pre-pandemic, the market shifts fluctuate, but we always end up back in that low to mid 30s range in terms of EBITDA share. And to be fair, let's look at a longer time frame. Let's look at the scorecard for 2023. We achieved 35% EBITDA share against a GGR share of 26%. We were leaders in GGR, yes, but we were by a much bigger margin the leader in EBITDA share as well as non-gaming revenues where where we had 41% of the share of the market. So in aggregate, for the year, if you look at revenue, gaming, non-gaming, EBITDA, I think our performance has been solid. But quarter to quarter, obviously there will be fluctuations depending on those factors that we just discussed.
David Katz
Jefferies
Got it. And then just for the follow-up, I think you guys have gone up to 71% share of 1928HK. I mean, can you talk about maybe where that goes over time? Is there an upper limit there and maybe some of the puts and takes to increasing that ownership stake?
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
So I think there's an upper limit of 75% by exchange rules, although they do give waivers based on the size of the equity, depending on the name. For us, I think, as I said before, SEL is investing a lot for the future, has a bright future ahead of it, and we'd like to own more of it. So you'll see us be aggressive. And I think where we stand, you know, we see value in the stocks today meaningfully. So that sort of is a repeat of what we said before, but I think you understand our conviction.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Understood. Thank you. Thanks, Dan.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. The next question is coming from Colin Mansfield from CBRE Institutional Research. Colin, your line is live.
Colin Mansfield
CBRE Institutional Research
Hey, everybody. Thanks for taking my call and congratulations on getting the last rating up to investment grade during the quarter. Maybe following on to David's question about the refinancing, maybe just an updated thoughts on how you're thinking about the subordinated term loan down at Sands China. I know there's a lot of liquidity up at the parent, but How are you guys thinking about timing of potentially taking that out of the capital structure down there? And then I have one follow-up on ratings.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Sure. I think you'll see us deal with the LVS maturities and the SEL 25s before you see any activity around the LVS parent co-term loan down to SELs. The one thing I'd like to point out is that it benefits SEL. It's a very favorable loan and allows them to have high-quality financing, deeply subordinated at a favorable rate. So from that standpoint, you know, the maturity is 28, and we'll see how it goes with SEL and what their needs are and kind of go from there. But I think we have ample equipment up at ParentCo, we believe, to do what we need.
Colin Mansfield
CBRE Institutional Research
Great. Thanks, Patrick. And then just one follow up on ratings. I mean, obviously, the company, you know, fully back in investment grade now. And I think with the development pipeline that you guys do have ahead of you, I'd just be curious how you're thinking about any sort of change to financial policy as it relates to target ratings. You know, I think this is one of the companies that could eventually get to mid triple B if you guys so desired. So I guess how do you guys balance, you know, any sort of desire to have those level of ratings as it relates to, you know, cost of capital relative to obviously the development pipeline you have ahead of yourself.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Thanks. So I think, you know, as we look back pre-pandemic, you know, we spent five years working towards investment grade. We think it's very important for us to actually be investment grade. It gives us access to the largest, most liquid debt market in the world. gives us a very efficient cost of capital, which in the long run provides us flexibility, but really drives returns on new projects. You know, we have this investment rebalance sheet. It helps us in new jurisdictions. You know, you heard Rob talk about several of them. We have the financial capability to execute on these projects. Our financial policy has always been that we like gross leverage to be between two and three times. You know, we've said this for many years. Nothing's really changed. It's our consistent view. I think over time, we're going to deliver just because of the EBITDA expansion. If you look what happened to MBS, it occurred. And our belief is that it will continue to occur at San China as well. So I think for us, the investment grade is very important. That gross leverage parameter of two to three times is consistent with prior statement, prior practice. And I actually think we're very favorably levered on a net basis and on a gross basis. And we're looking forward to doing some new development. I think that will fit within our leverage profile based on sort of the prior discussions that we've had about progression of funding and EBITDA development. So we're very focused on it. We think we can handle our new developments, our investment, our existing assets, and have a very healthy return on capital program while balancing all these things and having an investment-grade balance sheet. That's our goal and that's our view.
Colin Mansfield
CBRE Institutional Research
Great. Thanks again, guys, for taking the question and congrats again on getting fully back to IG.
Patrick Dumont
President and COO
Appreciate it. Thanks so much.
Operator
Conference Call Operator
Thank you. And this does conclude today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation.
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