This conference call transcript was computer generated and almost certianly contains errors. This transcript is provided for information purposes only.EarningsCall, LLC makes no representation about the accuracy of the aforementioned transcript, and you are cautioned not to place undue reliance on the information provided by the transcript.
spk01: Good morning. Thank you for attending today's Mayville Engineering Company fourth quarter 2022 earnings conference call. My name is Alicia and I'll be your moderator for today's call. All lines will be muted in the presentation portion of the call with an opportunity for questions and answers at the end. If you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. I would now like to pass the conference over to your host, Noel Ryan with Valum. You may now proceed.
spk04: Thank you, Operator. On behalf of our entire team, I'd like to welcome you to our fourth quarter 22 results conference call. Leading the call today is MEC's President and CEO, Jag Reddy, and Todd Butts, Chief Financial Officer. Today's discussion contains forward-looking statements about future business and financial expectations. Actual results may differ significantly from those projected in today's forward-looking statements due to various risks and uncertainties including the risk described in our periodic reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Except as required by law, we undertake no obligation to update our forward-looking statements. Further, this call will include the discussion of certain non-GAAP financial measures. Reconciliation of these measures to the closest GAAP financial measure is included in our quarterly earnings press release, which is available at mechinc.com. Following our prepared remarks, we will open the line for questions. And with that, I would like to turn the call over to Jack.
spk07: Thank you, Noel, and welcome to those joining us. Today, I will provide a high-level review of our fourth quarter and full year performance. This will be followed by an update on demand conditions across each of our end markets and a progress update on our MBX initiative. During the fourth quarter, we continue to build on the momentum evident across our business, highlighted by 13.8% euro-rear net sales growth and 26.2% euro-rear adjusted EBITDA growth. Total sales volumes increased 13.3% on a euro-rear basis in the fourth quarter, driven by broad-based demand across most end markets, but partially offset by continued disruptions in our customer supply chains. We also benefited from targeted commercial price increases in the period, which more than offset general inflationary pressures on labor and other product content. For the fourth quarter, our adjusted EBITDA margin increased 240 basis points to 10.5% when compared to the year-ago period, when excluding the impact of the planned production ramp at our Hazel Park facility. For the full year 2022, we delivered significant year-over-year growth in net sales, adjusted EBITDA, and net income. These improvements were driven by a combination of volume growth, fixed cost absorption, commercial price discipline, and operational improvements. We achieved these strong, full-year results despite the continued supply chain disruptions impacting our customers' production schedules, which resulted in deferred sales volumes for MEC throughout 2022. Our team remains committed to improving business transparency through robust external reporting. Following recent discussions with coverage analysts and investors, we have begun to provide revenue mixed data by end market, detailed revenue and EBITDA bridges that highlight our period-over-period performance, and broken out the revenue impact of raw material pass-throughs. We believe these incremental disclosures should prove helpful to understand our business and performance better. Turning now to a review of our market conditions across our five primary end markets. Let's begin with commercial vehicle market, which represented 39% of 2022 revenues. Commercial vehicle revenue increased 36% on an year-over-year basis, driven by freight strength and fleet upgrades. Based on current customer demand requirements, we expect steady demand during the first half of 2023, followed by a slowing in the second half of the year going into 2024 as the industry navigates an emissions regulation change. While the potential for pre-buy exists, we believe this will be of moderate impact to 2023. Currently, ACT research forecasts the Class VIII vehicle production to decline 3.1% year-over-year in 2023 to 305,259 units. While supply chain constraints have continued to impact some commercial vehicle customers, we expect to see this continue to improve during the next several quarters. OEMs still have sizable backlogs and used equipment prices have remained elevated, which gives us confidence in our current production schedules. We continue to monitor a potential softening in freight fundamentals and remain ready to adapt to any market changes. Next is the construction and access market, which represented 21% of 2022 revenues. Construction and access revenues increased 21% on a year-over-year basis, driven by fleet restocking demand amid lower dealer inventories. Our construction access end market is currently experiencing the impact of higher interest rates on the residential housing market. Looking out to the remainder of 2023, we believe soft residential new construction demand will be partially offset by volume growth across our non-residential infrastructure and energy markets. Low-deal inventories, aging equipment, and the growing need to restart fleets are factors that play in our favor providing a volume growth offset to softening residential construction. The power sports market represented 16% of 2022 revenues and declined 3% on year-over-year basis. This decline was primarily the result of softening of demand due to the discretionary nature of consumer spending offset somewhat by dealer restocking. However, Customer inventories remain low, and some level of restocking of the dealer channel will occur in 2023. As we have mentioned previously, we expect recent share gains within power sports will position us to outpace potential softness that may occur in this market over the coming year. Our agricultural market represents 11% of 2022 revenues and increased 15% on a year-over-year basis. Global food stocks remain tight, leading to elevated crop prices. Meanwhile, the inventory of both new and used machinery remains low. Given elevated crop prices, we believe producer demand will increase in 2023, supporting further large ag equipment demand. Small ag is expected to be flat to a modest decline with ample inventory and slowing demand after higher volumes the last couple of years. Our military market represented 5% of 2022 revenues and increased 3% on a year-over-year basis driven by new program wins and new vehicle introductions. Our consumers have solid contractual backlogs with the U.S. government, and we continue to see good volumes based on new vehicle introductions and related programs. Customer coding activity and order rates remain strong though we remain mindful of the potential for softening in the broader macroeconomic outlook this year. However, currently we are seeing no indications of slowing in our customer space of activity. While supply chain disruptions continue to impact several of our customers, we anticipate these issues will ease as we move through 2023. Shifting now to an update on the recent progress we have made with our MBX initiatives. We announced the launch of our MBX initiative during the third quarter of 2022. At its core, MBX is an operating system that we're leveraging to drive both operational and commercial excellence. MBX represents a key area of strategic focus for our team as we position MEC to achieve consistent above-market performance through the cycle. MBX is founded on achieving commercial and operational excellence through continuous improvement. Operationally, our focus is to achieve increased standardization, lean manufacturing, and automation of our various production processes, which in turn lead to improved execution, better productivity, and the reduction of costs across our value chain. Additionally, we plan to leverage MBX in other areas that support our operations, such as sales, purchasing, and finance. We continue to hold our quarterly president's guidance In the fourth quarter, we held an event at our Byron Center facility in Michigan. Dedicated teams drove multiple lean events focused on improving operational value streams, increasing utilization of stamping capital, and enhancing procurement strategy. At the commercial level, we continue to see meaningful opportunities to capitalize on multi-year trends toward reshoring and outsourcing by OEMs. Not only will these trends benefit us from a volume and utilization perspective, they also position us to be more strategic in our approach to pricing as customers pivot toward domestic skilled labor pools that can provide an on-time quality product. At the same time, we are focused on commercial expansion, which for us amounts to targeted expansion within high-growth adjacent markets while continuing to build our share of wallet with existing customers who value our full suite of design, prototyping, manufacturing, and aftermarket services. We made significant progress during the second half of 2022 as we grew our share of wallet with existing customers and explored emerging growth opportunities with new customers. We also further improved our productivity as we seek to better optimize our capacity. Allow me to share some of the commercial progress we've made in recent months. During the fourth quarter, we continue to make significant progress working with a large public company customer, making components for thermal management of electric vehicle batteries and battery enclosures. We continue to win new business and expand with this recently acquired customer. We're also engaged in an outsourcing project of current business with the same customer that involves support for building infrastructure. We expect this project work to continue to grow and evolve in 2023. Given the impending changes to vehicle emissions regulations beginning in 2024, we are working on multiple projects with current commercial vehicle customers, supporting vehicle updates that are slated to occur during the next 12 months. We believe these new launches position MEC to gain additional share of wallet representing an important organic growth catalyst. In addition to the upcoming emissions changes, many of our commercial vehicle customers are continuing to develop their battery electric vehicle offerings. Outside of our current components being used on these vehicles, we are working on battery electric vehicle specific parts and expect to expand our content per vehicle. In summary, we remain focused on driving above-market growth through rateable EBITDA margin expansion. Our volume growth comes from existing and new customers and in new and adjacent markets. We expect to achieve margin expansion through productivity improvements, including capacity optimization and improved price discipline. From a capital allocation perspective, our top priorities include inorganic growth and debt repayment, followed by investments in organic growth. In 2023, capital expenditures are expected to be between $20 to $25 million, representing a more than 50% decline from the full year 2022. Given a decline in expected CapEx, we anticipate an increase in free cash flow generation during 2023, positioning us to self-fund smaller strategic growth investments. While today our fabrication expertise is mainly within steel, we will look to expand our expertise within lightweight, next-generation materials such as aluminum, plastics, and composites. As a vertically integrated Tier 1 supplier of scale, MEC remains uniquely equipped to deliver a one-stop solution that combines design, prototyping, manufacturing, and aftermarket services expertise across the entire product lifecycle. Before turning the call over to Todd, I want to provide an update on our Hazel Park facility and the ongoing litigation with our former fitness customer. As we announced last quarter, we commenced production at our Hazel Park facility on time and in line with our plans. We will continue the ramp up of production at Hazel Park through 2023 and into 2024. While we expect the facility will be a margin headwind for us while production ramps up in 2023, Hazel Park represents an important and exciting component of our growth strategy. The facility provides us with state-of-the-art operations, a market with a stable labor pool, and the much needed capacity to support incremental customer demand. We're also leveraging the facility as part of our operational excellence initiatives in our efforts to realign our manufacturing footprint to better meet customer needs and improve efficiencies. As we look forward to 2024, we expect the facility will no longer be a drag on our margins and will exit the year with a run rate of $100 million in annual revenues, half of which will come from new customers and the other half coming from new and existing programs with current customers. On August 4, 2022, the company filed a lawsuit against Peloton Interactive Inc. in the Supreme Court of the State of New York, New York County. In the lawsuit, the company alleges that Peloton breached the March 2021 supply agreement between the parties pursuant to which MEC was to manufacture and supply custom component parts for certain of Peloton's exercise bikes. In January 2023, in response to Peloton's motion to dismiss, the court allowed the company's breach of contract claim to proceed. The lawsuit is ongoing. and these in the discovery phase. With that, I will now turn the call over to Todd to review our financial results for the fourth quarter and full year.
spk05: Thank you, Jag. I'll begin my prepared remarks with a detailed overview of our fourth quarter and full year financial performance, an update on our balance sheet and liquidity, and conclude with an overview of our financial guidance for the full year 2023. Total sales for the fourth quarter increased 13.8% on a year-over-year basis to $128.5 million, driven by a combination of improved sales volumes and continued price discipline. Our manufacturing margin was $13 million in the fourth quarter, as compared to $9.4 million in the prior year period. The increase was driven by improved demand, increased commercial pricing, and better absorption of manufacturing overhead costs. offset by a $900,000 decline in scrap income. Our manufacturing margin rate was 10.1% for the fourth quarter of 2022, as compared to 8.3% for the prior year period. The increase of 180 basis points was primarily due to the reasons discussed above. Profit sharing, bonus, and deferred compensation expenses were $4.1 million for the fourth quarter of 2022, which is above the $3.5 million recorded for the same prior year period, primarily due to the decision to provide additional profit sharing to employees versus contributions to the ESOP plan. Other selling, general, and administrative expenses were $6 million for the fourth quarter of 2022, as compared to $5 million for the same prior year period. The increase is primarily due to increased professional fees, wages, and other expenses. Interest expense was $1.2 million for the fourth quarter of 2022, as compared to $440,000 in the prior year period, primarily due to higher interest rates. We anticipate that at current interest rates, interest expense should remain at a similar quarterly level for the foreseeable future. Adjusted EBITDA increased to $11.6 million versus $9.2 million for the same prior year period. Adjusted EBITDA margin percent increased by 90 basis points to 9% in the quarter, as compared to 8.1% for the same prior year period. The increase is attributed to improved volumes offset by Hazel Park launch costs and lower scrap income. Excluding the impact of Hazel Park launch costs, adjusted EBITDA margin was 10.5% in the fourth quarter of 2022. Turning now to full year performance. Total sales for the full year 2022 increased 18.6% on a year-over-year basis to $539.4 million. Driven by customer raw material price pass-throughs, volume increases, improved price capture, and end market demand resulting from customer inventory replenishment. Excluding raw material pass-throughs, total sales increased 12.4% on a year-over-year basis in 2022. As Jag mentioned, the strong revenue growth came despite continued disruptions within our customer supply chains. Manufacturing margin was $61.1 million for the year ended December 31, 2022, as compared to $51.4 million for the same prior year period. The 18.9% increase was driven by volume increases, commercial pricing increases, and improved absorption of manufacturing overhead costs, offset by Hazel Park transition and launch costs, continued customer supply chain issues, and a $1.8 million decline to scrapped income in the second half of the year. Our manufacturing margin rate finished at 11.3%, consistent with the prior year period. Profit sharing, bonus, and deferred compensation expenses for the year were $8 million, as compared to $11.5 million for the prior year period. The decrease of $3.5 million primarily due to a reduction in deferred compensation expense. Other selling, general, and administrative expenses were $24.7 million as compared to $20.4 million during 2021, driven by higher consulting, legal, and professional fees, CEO transition costs, and wages and benefits due to continued inflationary pressures. Interest expense for 2022 was $3.4 million. as compared to $2 million for 2021 due to higher borrowing levels and interest rates. Income tax expense was $3.7 million on pre-tax income of $22.4 million as compared to an income tax benefit of $1.9 million on a pre-tax loss of $9.4 million for 2021. Our federal net operating loss carry forward was $21.2 million as of December 31st, 2022. The NOL does not expire and will be used to offset our future pre-tax earnings. We continue to anticipate our long-term effective tax rate to be approximately 27% based on current tax regulations. Adjusted EBITDA finished in line with our guidance for the year at $60.8 million after adding back the first half of repositioning impact from our Hazel Park facility, our CEO transition costs, and legal expenses related to our former fitness customer versus $46.2 million for 2021. Adjusted EBITDA margin for the year increased by 110 basis points to 11.3% as compared to 10.2% for the same prior year period. The increase was driven by greater demand and improved commercial pricing offset by a $3.3 million unfavorable impact from the ramp-up of Hazel Park facility and a $1.8 million decline in scrapped income during the third and fourth quarters. Next, I will cover cash flow and liquidity figures. Capital expenditures for 2022 were $58.6 million as compared to $39.3 million during 2021. The increases due to the repurposing of assets at our Hazel Park facility with the remainder being for continued investments in technology and automation for new customer wins and existing production processes. During the fourth quarter, capital expenditures were $19.8 million as compared to $12.7 million during the fourth quarter of 2021. The increase in CapEx during the quarter relates to investments in our Hazel Park, Michigan facility. As of the end of 2022, our total outstanding debt which includes bank debt, financing agreements, and finance lease obligations, was $74.9 million. As compared to $71.4 million at the end of 2021, the increase in debt principally relates to the increase in capital spending discussed above. Furthermore, as of December 31st, our net leverage ratio was 1.3 times, which is below our long-term net leverage target of at or below 2.5 times. Turning now to a discussion of our full year 2023 financial guidance, which is current as of the time provided. Although customer supply chain challenges persist, we anticipate sales volumes will increase on a year-over-year basis in 2023. Our new business pipeline remains solid as we build new relationships and strengthen our existing relationships with customers that Jag highlighted earlier on the call. As a result, we currently expect full year 2023 Net sales are between $540 million and $580 million. Adjusted EBITDA are between $62 million and $71 million. And capital expenditures are between $20 and $25 million. Please note that our risk-adjusted outlook assumes general stability in end-market demand, but also takes into account the potential for some macro softening as the year progresses. Also included in our 2023 guidance are the following assumptions. For net sales, our guidance assumes that raw material pass-throughs will decline by 4% to 5% relative to 2022 as compared to growing 5% to 6% in 2022 due to stabilized steel market prices. In addition, our adjusted EBIT guidance reflects scrap income of $7 million to $9 million, a decrease of $4 million to $6 million as compared to 2022. Our guidance also assumes that the Hazel Park facility will have a dilutive impact to our results of $4 to $6 million due to underabsorbed overhead costs related to the ramp up of production throughout the year. Lastly, our guidance also reflects a 40 to 70 basis point improvement in adjusted EBITDA margins associated with our MBX initiatives. Operator, that concludes our prepared remarks. Please open the line for questions as we begin our question and answer session.
spk01: Thank you. If you would like to ask a question, please press star followed by 1 on your telephone keypad. If for any reason you would like to remove that question, please press star followed by 2. Again, to ask a question, press star 1. As a reminder, if you're using a speakerphone, please remember to pick up your handset before asking your question. We'll pause here briefly as questions are registered. The first question comes from the line of Ming Debray with RW Baird. You may now proceed.
spk08: Hey, good morning, guys. It's Joe Grabowski on for MIG this morning. Hey, good morning. I wanted to mention the slide deck and the new disclosures were very helpful, so thank you very much for that. I guess my first question would be, and, you know, again, with the slide deck, there was a waterfall. reconciling Q4 EBITDA with the prior year, I was wondering if maybe directionally you could talk about Q4 EBITDA versus Q3 EBITDA. Because, you know, the way I look at it, the revenues quarter over quarter were down $7.7 million, but the EBITDA was down $4.6 million. You know, and I know there's a lot of moving pieces in there. But, you know, what was kind of the delta, again, with the EBITDA, Q3 versus Q4 EBITDA? which maybe left the margin a little below where we were expecting.
spk07: Yeah, so I'm going to let Todd jump in, Joe. I think, you know, one of the challenges we had in Q4 was customer supply chain disruptions. We had multiple customers that took unexpected line down days that obviously, you know, resulted in us under-absorbing and last minute, you know, we can't just take the cost out, right, you know, So that's, I would say, primarily one of the reasons why Q4 EBITDA margins were a little softer. But overall, I'm going to let Todd to help you with the bridge. But I'm really proud of the team that executed exceptionally well in a really challenging environment in 2022. Overall, as we indicated, we had a tremendous performance, both in our top line and EBITDA margin improvement, and also EBITDA dollar improvement. And we were able to transform our business in the second half into a better performing business coming into 2023. And more importantly, right, trying to ramp up Hazel Park and repurpose Hazel Park after what happened in late 2021. So with that, let me turn it over to Todd.
spk05: So certainly, Joe, when you think of Q3 to Q4 sequentially, just in the normal course, you know, the fourth quarter does have the holidays. You do end up with a little underabsorption. So naturally, even if volumes of stay are similar, you're going to see a little bit of dilutive impact because of fewer working days. You couple that with what Jag mentioned on the supply chain issues within our customer base and taking out a few extra days, that adds a little more pressure to that under absorption. We also ramped up quite a bit of headcount as it relates to Hazel Park. And so as you saw between Q3 to Q4, those costs went up. It was about a $2 million impact in Q4. versus about half of that in Q3, and then you couple the scrapped income decline. So you factor in those three things, and that's really what drove down the dollars and the percentage when we think of Q4 to Q3.
spk08: Got it. Okay, great. Thank you. That's very helpful. I guess my next question, your sales guidance is for 2023 sales would be anywhere from flat to up $40 million. I guess kind of two questions related to that. First of all, you know, you mentioned Hazel Park is $100 million run rate exiting the year, but how much do you think through the course of the year Hazel Park will contribute? And then related to that, any thoughts on quarterly guidance or I'm sorry, quarterly cadence for the top line through the year?
spk07: So let me take that, Joe. First of all, let me correct your statement that the $100 million run rate exiting the year is for 2024, not 2023. Okay. My apologies. So that's number one. You know, we are actively ramping, as we said, in Hazel Park, right? The biggest challenge for us is really customer qualifications. Every single part we have to put through Hazel Park needs to go through details, you know, AQP and other quality certifications by our customers. That's the biggest bottleneck. Having said that, we expect that revenue approximately between $25 and $30 million for 2023 in Hazel Park. So that's number one. The guidance 540 to 580 that we're providing on our top line for 2023 includes a couple of things. Number one, it is risk adjusted. What does that mean? Well, the midpoint is risk adjusted. If the economy continues to be soft and the supply chain continues to be disruptive to our customers, we'll end up at the lower end of that range. If things improve dramatically in terms of supply chain disruptions, go away and, you know, economy is stable, volumes are stable, we could be at the higher end of that guidance. Also, as Todd mentioned in his prepared remarks, right, the raw material pass-throughs are, you know, 4% to 5% down in 2023. So what that means is, you know, take your, you know, 540-ish in, you know, 2022 and take out, you know, between 4% and 5% of that sale and then add back, right, our volume growth on top of that, right? So hopefully that answers your question.
spk08: It does. That's very helpful. And I guess my final question, this is the first time I remember you guys talking about scrap income. Maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but can you kind of talk about the dynamics around scrap income and and how it kind of flows through the P&L?
spk05: Certainly. So that ends up being a contra expense, so it doesn't end up in our revenue lines. And the reason why we called that out, and you are correct, we have not historically called that out directly, but it changed so much and so quickly we felt it was prudent to kind of isolate that incident in the second half because it went from over 20-some cents a pound you know, in almost half that in the third and fourth quarters. And it was a very steep and precipitous decline. You know, in a normal course, scrap income is probably more than that. I call it 14 to 16 cents a pound. So we were unusually high in the beginning half of the year, but then it dropped really below what we would call normal market conditions in the second half. So that's why we felt that it made sense to call it out specifically in the last quarter.
spk08: Got it. Okay. Thanks for taking my questions. Good luck the rest of the quarter.
spk01: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Mr. Joe. The next question comes from the line of Andy Keplowitz with Citigroup. You may now proceed.
spk03: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Andy. Jazz, I just want to understand more what you're saying. You know, at an end market level, you said you expect power sports to be a higher percentage of sales in 23 versus 22 in construction. And I think you have down a little bit in terms of percentages yet. You have the power sports market down, construction flat, ag up. Are you basically saying you expect power sports to grow much higher than the market given the share gains you've had? Maybe construction we should model conservatively. I'm not sure what to make from the ag comments because I think you talked about small ag being down and large ag being up. More color would be helpful.
spk07: Absolutely. So, Powersports, as we indicated last time, Andy, the market has a significant impact on discretionary spend and given interest rates. We expect the market as a whole to be down, but we have had significant program wins with a couple of our major customers. We also added a new customer in 2023 that will come online in the second half of 2023. Given the new program wins, we're gaining significant share in the sports market, and that's the reason why we expect the sales in that segment to be up in 2023. In regards to construction, construction, most of our exposure is in construction access. Residential is going to be down, as we indicated, but we are seeing green shoots, if you will, in non-residential construction markets. areas and applications, particularly with some of the infrastructure investments flowing through. So that gives a little bit of confidence on the construction market that even though residential might be down, it might be partially offset by non-residential construction impact. Back to agriculture. We have approximately 50% of our sales in large ag and approximately 50% of our sales in small ag, including turf care, right? So small ag and turf care, as you have seen industry reports and our customers as well talking about these sub-segments, there's significant inventory in the channel and we're seeing that softness come through in the small ag and turf care applications. Whereas large ag continues to be strong, our customers are indicating strong demand signals, and we continue to expect that sub-segment to grow for us.
spk03: Got it, very helpful. Okay, and then just flipping over to margins for a second, maybe a little more color about incremental margins in 23 and what MBX Canon is contributing. I know you gave us that for you set of basic points, but you cited a fair amount of headwinds on the business, yet I think you're still going to high 20% incrementals at the midpoint. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe how are you thinking about with MBX contributing now, what that means for your normalized incrementals? Because I think, Todd, you had talked about load 20s as normalized in the past. Yeah, really good question.
spk07: As you've seen, Andy, in your past as a program like MBX takes some time to get really rooted as our daily operating system. So we've been on this journey for about six months now. And I can tell you, the entire organization is excited, enthused. You know, this year, in 2023, we'll probably do between three times to four times as many Kaizens as we would have done in 2022, right? just the scale of our, you know, activity has significantly increased within the company. Having said that, right, you know, the biggest concern I have after living through this type of programs for 20 plus years in my own, almost 30 years in my career, right, the sustainability of those improvements is really where I am focused on. It's not the number of cases we're going to do. It's really how much of those improvements can we sustain over long periods of time, right? So given that, we're being really conservative on our margin impact in 2023 because I really need to see our, we as a company, right, sustain those improvements. That's why when we say 40 to 70 basis points of, you know, accretion, you know, EBITDA margins for 2023, that's a really risk-adjusted conservative number that we're putting out there, right? We're going to really stand by that range with the expectation that, you know, we want to continue to push that number forward. As we see the MBX program really take root in every plant, in every function, including finance and sales and marketing and supply chain. So I think that's where we are in terms of our MBX drive within the company. Todd, you want to talk about the incremental margins?
spk05: Yeah, so historically, you are correct. I mean, we've been in that 21.5% range historically, and like Jake mentioned, we would expect in the longer term, once the MBX really takes hold, that that incremental margin should improve. And certainly, when you think of next year, we're very happy with the fact that you look at the mid-ranges, the incrementals are very strong, despite some continued expected headwinds. When you think of Next year, we did talk about continued potential supply chain issues. We have the ASA Park launch that is ongoing throughout the year. That will have a negative $4 million to $6 million impact. And then you couple that in with the scrap decline, right? So despite all those kind of headwinds, we're still seeing nice progression on our incremental margins year over year at the midpoint.
spk03: Right. And, Todd, to be clear, you're talking about 23 when you say next year, right, just to be clear? Yeah, correct. Yeah. So let me just ask one other follow up on Hazel Park. So, Jack, I think you mentioned, you know, the ramp up, the run rate exiting 24. Just thinking about the four to six million of incremental costs this year, is that sort of front end loaded so that by the end of the year, you know, you're probably at break even or better? Or like, how do we think about that sort of improvement possibility?
spk07: Yeah, so if we were to think about it, right, it's probably 60-40 split, Andy, between first half and second half. You know, sitting here, right, that's our current estimate.
spk05: Yeah, I would say that it is a little more front-end loaded, but you still have, you know, that ramp happens throughout the year. And then you get into Q4, certainly volumes in timing of days, you know, has a little bit of an impact there. So I think the 60-40 split is a fair
spk07: And then for the 25 to 30 million revenue we're pushing to get through Hazel Park this year, right, we might be, you know, slightly, you know, negative, right? So our goal obviously used to be at least EBITDA positive, or at least break-even rather. But, you know, that will be a bit of a challenge in 2023. Okay.
spk03: Helpful, guys. Thank you. Thanks.
spk01: Thank you, Mr. Capulowicz. There are no further questions registered. So at this time, I will pass the conference back to Mr. Jagrady. Excuse me. We do have a question from the line of Larry Desmarais with William Blair. You may now proceed.
spk02: Excuse me. Thanks. Good morning, everybody. Just I want to stay with Hazel Park for a minute here. Hi, guys. So 25 to 35 million and 23 break even, maybe negative EBITDA. growth in 24 and then 100 million plus presumably in 2025. Can you help us on sort of the margin bridge? You know, 24 we swing positive presumably on some number in between those sales brackets. And, you know, what does it look like at 100 million, the EBITDA margin? And are we cannibalizing any other plans or is this all incremental? And, you know, finally, how much of this is go get versus what you have visibility on?
spk07: Yeah, okay. Thank you, Larry. On the $100 million exit we talked about in 2024, obviously we're not providing any guidance for 2024. Having said that, we expect Hazel Park to be EBITDA accretive, or positive rather, in 2024. We expect perhaps approximately $65 to $70 million-ish in revenues for 2024 out of Hazel Park with an exit run rate of $100 million, and it will be EBITDA positive. And in 2025, obviously $100 million or more, as you mentioned, we agree with that. In terms of out of the $100 million, approximately 50% of that $100 million will be new customers and new programs that we currently do not have. And then approximately 50% of the revenues would be current customers with some new programs and some existing programs, right? So what that means is out of the 100, let's say approximately 25 or so percent of that number is some of the volume that we're moving from other plants into Hazel Park to optimize our plant network, right? So hopefully that answers your question.
spk05: The other comment I would make, Larry, when you think of the margin profile, when we get to 2025 and we're at $100 million run rate, our expectation would be that even a margin would be in line with our expectation of the 15% or even hopefully even accretive from there. So that is our goal, our expectation. And as Jack mentioned, keep in mind, there isn't really cannibalization happening at plants. It's opening up capacity that was needed for us to bring in incremental business. So when you think of that $100 million, that will be all incremental business.
spk02: Okay, that's very clear, and that's what I was looking for. And then the second question, I think it's recently in December, you had talked about the 15% EBITDA margins that you just referenced. You know, if we look at the guidance for 23, we have presumably obviously a much more stable year. I think the material pass-throughs, you get some benefit there. But then even if we adjust out from the under-resorption in Hazel, some of the headwinds from Hazel, you know, we're still nowhere near the 15%. So can you sort of help us bridge the gap between 15% target, which, you know, is it realistic or not, and the timeframe, and then, you know, where we're entering now, even if we adjust for some of those headwinds? What's the gap?
spk07: Yeah, so we stand by our medium-term goal of 15% adjusted EBITDA margins. The bridge to where we are in 2023, our guidance, and where we would like to be in a couple of years is really threefold, right? and it's approximately 70 to 90 basis points, 70 to 100 basis points of each of those items. One is Hazel Park, as we indicated. Another is scrap income, as we indicated. And the third one is customer supply chain disruptions, right? We continue to see that. That's been, you know, we talked about even in Q4 and in 2023, right? So those are the three items, approximately 70 to 100 basis points each, is what we're battling to get to that 15% adjusted EBIT market target.
spk05: and yet the other comment i would make is you know you look at the low end the low end of the guidance kind of reflects about 11 11.2 percent yeah as jack mentioned you have probably about two to three hundred basis points of headwinds on the high end though we're at you know 12 to 12 and a half percent so when you really factor that in that potentially gets us near that 15 percent uh goal okay so realistically
spk02: you know, medium term is probably around 2025 when we're operating at a much more productive run rate in Hazel Park.
spk05: Without, you know, really providing further guidance at this point, I would say that's fair to say at some point potentially in 2024 or 2025. You know, we are expecting to have an analyst day later this year, and our expectation within that, you know, meeting would obviously be providing a bridge to our future even margins.
spk02: Okay, that's very helpful. Thank you very much, and good luck.
spk01: Thank you, Larry. Thank you, Mr. Demaree. As a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, it is star 1 on your telephone keypad. There are no further questions registered at this time, so I will pass the conference back to Mr. Jagrati. You may now proceed.
spk07: Thank you, Alicia. Once again, thank you for joining our call. Should you have any questions, please contact Noel Ryan or Stephan Neely at VALEM, our Investor Relations Council. This concludes our call today. You may now disconnect.
spk01: That concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect your line.
Disclaimer