Nokia Corporation

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Nokia's third quarter 2025 results call. I'm David Mulholland, head of Nokia Investor Relations, and today with me is Justin Hotard, our president and CEO, along with Marco Varan, our CFO. Before we get started, a quick disclaimer. During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding our future business and financial performance, and these statements are predictions that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results we currently expect. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the risk factor section of our annual report on Form 20F, which is available on our investor relations website. Within today's presentation, references to growth rates will mostly be on a constant currency and portfolio basis, and other financial items will be based on our comparable reporting. Please note that our Q3 report and the presentation that accompanies this call are published on our website. The report includes both reported and comparable financial results and a reconciliation between the two. In terms of the agenda for today, Justin will go through our key messages from the quarter, and then Marco will go through our financial performance. We'll then move to Q&A. With that, let me hand over to Justin.

Thank you, David. Overall, we delivered a solid performance in the third quarter, in line with our expectations. We grew net sales by 9% with all business groups growing. Order intake was again strong, particularly in optical networks and IP networks driven by AI and cloud customers. Our profitability in the quarter was as expected. Network infrastructure gross margin improved sequentially, though it was impacted slightly by product mix. Cloud and network services had a strong gross margin in the quarter. Product mix impacted the gross margin of mobile networks with a lower mix of software revenue. Our operating margin declined year on year due to a one-time benefit seen in the prior year from a loss provision reversal, without which our operating margin would have been flat. The broader demand environment remains healthy as we move into the fourth quarter. We have seen some improvements in CSP expectations, along with the strong order intake I mentioned in AI and cloud. In fact, entering the fourth quarter, our backlog coverage is stronger than in recent years. We're also pleased with our progress on the Infinera acquisition. We are ahead of schedule with the integration timeline and with synergy expectations. The acquired business contributed strongly to both our net sales growth and order intake growth in Q3. So, after a solid Q3 and continued strong order intake, we are well on track to achieve our four-year outlook. We expect the fourth quarter with net sales growing sequentially and slightly above our historical seasonality of 22%. We are currently tracking towards the midpoint of our operating profit outlook range. Let me now share a few highlights across the business from the third quarter. For our network infrastructure business, the key highlight has been our progress in the AI and cloud customer segment. In Q3, this segment accounted for 6% of our group net sales. Breaking it down, it was 14% of our network infrastructure business, and more specifically, 29% of optical networks. In optical, as mentioned, our 800 gig ZR ZR plus coherent pluggables became available in the quarter and shipped to our first hyperscale customer. Our pipeline in this space is growing as customer investments accelerate and data center architectures evolve. Q3, also saw us announce strategic partnerships with both Nscale and Supermicro. With Nscale, we are now a preferred partner for advanced networking technologies across our NI portfolio. Supermicro is adopting our SR Linux network operating system for their 800-gig Ethernet switches, providing expanded footprint for our network operating system. Finally, we secured two new design wins for our switching platform in the quarter with hyperscalers. The market is growing rapidly, and while I'm pleased with these initial signs of progress in IP networks, clearly we still have a lot of work ahead of us. In our fixed network business, we launched our new 50-gig PON offering. With our unique solution built on our Quillian chipset, operators can easily evolve from GPON to XGS, 25-gig and 50-gig PON on the same fiber. Ready with encryption for the post-quantum era, Nokia's solution also provides enterprises with the bandwidth, security, and reliability they require. Customers like Frontier Communications in the United States are unique PON technology to seamlessly introduce 25-gig PON. Now I want to turn to our mobile businesses, starting with cloud and network services. The team has delivered strong net sales growth and operating profit growth as it continues to focus on autonomous cloud-native architectures. In voice core, we became the market share leader in the first half of 2025, as reported by Del Oro. Approximately 70% of 5G standalone core network deployments outside China use a portion of Nokia's 5G core stack, and network penetration is still less than 30% for 5G standalone core. In mobile networks, we continue to see the market stabilize. We recently announced a deal with Vodafone 3 that will see us enter their new combined network in the UK as a major RAN supplier with approximately 7,000 sites. We are focused on improving the returns in the business over time, delivering for our customers, and differentiating through innovation. In Nokia Technologies, we secured several new agreements in the quarter. the team continues to be disciplined on productivity and operating leverage. While we are now entering the heightened investment phase for 6G standardization, we continue to see stability in our annual operating profit. In Q3, we completed a strategic review of our venture fund investments. We have decided to scale down our passive venture fund investments. Over time, we will substantially reduce the capital deployed in these areas. As a result, our venture fund investments are now reported within financial income and expenses. Going forward, we will consider targeted direct minority investments in companies that help us to accelerate our strategy. An example is the investment we made in Nscale alongside the strategic partnership that I referred to earlier. Because of this change, we are making a technical change to our operating profit guidance. increasing it by €0.1 billion, which is related to the negative impact the venture funds had on our operating profit in the first half. However, operationally, our guidance is unchanged. After a solid Q3 and with recent order trends, we are well on track to achieve our full-year outlook for operating profit. As I mentioned before, we expect fourth-corner net sales to grow sequentially at slightly above our historical seasonality of 22%. And we are tracking towards the midpoint of our operating profit range of 1.7 to 2.2 billion euros. At our Capital Markets Day in New York on November 19th, we will share our strategy to unlock the full potential of our portfolio and the steps we are taking to focus the company to deliver ongoing growth and operating leverage. The AI super cycle is accelerating demand for providers of advanced and trusted connectivity. Nokia is uniquely positioned to be a leader in this market. With that, let me hand it over to Marco to discuss our financial performance.

Thanks, Justin, and hello from my side as well. In quarter three, we saw net sales increase by 9%, and we are pleased to see growth across all of our business groups. First margin for the group declined 150 basis points year-on-year, This was largely as we have expected. And this is because of the product mix within both network infrastructure and mobile networks. Operating margin was 9%, 220 basis points below the prior year, although this was mainly due to a one-time impact from the reversal of loss allowance for trade receivables in the prior year. Without this, the operating profit of operating margin would have been flat year on year. and we generated 429 million of free cash flow and ended the quarter with 3 billion of net cash. I would like to update you on our cost savings program, which we introduced in 2023. We expect to get about 450 million savings in 2025. And going forward, we will focus on delivering operational leverage through continuous productivity improvement IT simplification, digital instrumentation, and organizational efficiency, rather than using large restructuring programs. Ultimately, this means a cultural shift towards consistent cost discipline and efficiency to help us deliver our strategic goals. Turning to business groups now, starting with network infrastructure, which had another strong quarter with 11% growth, Optical Networks was the standout performer with 19% sales growth and continued to see strong order trends with Book the Bill well above 1. IP networks also saw strong growth in orders in the quarter as we start to see an increased traction with AI and cloud, as Justin mentioned. IP networks sales grew 4% and fixed networks grew 8% in the quarter. Cross-margin was impacted by product mix and declined 190 basis points, although it did increase from the level we had in quarter two. Operating margin declined because of lower cross-margin along with the increased investments in R&D and acquisition of Infinera. In the quarter, we did see a small positive contribution to operating profit from Infinera as we start to see some initial benefit from Synergies along with the growth in the business. Cloud and network services sales grew by 13% in the quarter as we continue to see strong demand for our cloud-based core platforms. First margin increased 380 basis points as we improved cost of delivery along with the operating leverage benefit of higher sales. Operating margin also increased by 250 basis points, with some of the cross-margin strength partially offset by higher R&D expenses. And mobile networks net sales increased by 4% year-on-year, trimmed by growth in Vietnam and Middle East and Africa. In quarter two, we said we expect quarter three cross-margin to be lower than normal, reflecting a lower software contribution, and this was indeed the case. Year on year, we saw 370 basis points decline. With respect to operating margin, although operating expenses declined, the reversal of a loss allowance in the prior year meant that operating margin declined. Without this, the operating margin would have only slightly declined despite this being a quarter with a low software contribution in the mix. Turning now to Nokia Technologies, net sales grew by 14% in the quarter, and we signed several new deals in quarter three. Our annual net sales run rate remains at approximately 1.4 billion. Operating expenses in quarter three saw some timing benefits, and therefore will increase slightly in quarter four. we continue to expect 1.1 billion operating profit for the full year in Nokia technologies. Now let's look at the net sales per region. In North America, we saw strong growth in network infrastructure and cloud and network services, while mobile networks declined slightly. In APAC, India's sales grew in network infrastructure, driven by strong demand for fixed wireless, while mobile network sales returned to some modest growth. Outside of the benefit we saw from Nokia technologies, Europe was stable in quarter three. Now, turning to our cash performance, we ended the quarter with a net cash position of €3 billion. Free cash flow was positive €429 million, consistent with our profit generation and well-managed working capital. We continue to target 50% to 80% free cash flow conversion from comparable operating profit for the full year.

Thank you, Justin and Marco. Before we turn to the Q&A session, you should already have received an invitation to register for Capital Markets Day, which, as Justin mentioned, will be held in New York on the 19th of November. We hope as many of you as possible will be able to join us at the event. As usual for the Q&A session, as a courtesy to what is in the queue, can you please limit yourself to one question and a brief follow-up? Kayleigh, can you please give the instructions?

We will now begin the question and answer session. If you are also viewing the webcast, please remember to mute the audio on your computer before asking your question, as there is a 30-second delay.

Kayleigh, are we good to start the Q&A?

please press star 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. If you're using a speakerphone, please pick up the handset before pressing your keys. Are you there, Kaylee? To withdraw your question. Yes, let's go. I'll now hand back to David Mulholland.

We will take our first question today from Artem Bilecki from SEB. Artem, please go ahead.

Yes, hi, and thank you for the presentation. So my question would be relating to IP networks and switching business on Zfront. So how do you see the progress on Zfront in general? And you have also set a target three quarters ago, what comes to year 2028 or so. Are you well tracking on it?

One second. Could you start your question again, please? We have a slight technical issue on our side.

Yes, don't worry. Can you hear me now?

Yes, we can hear you.

Okay, great. So I would like to ask a question relating to IP networks and your initiatives when it comes to data center and switching business. So you mentioned that you have some new design wins during the quarter. So, how you are tracking against your target for 2028? And also, should we anticipate some contribution to revenues looking at upcoming quarters? Thank you.

Yeah. So, Artur, I think as I've said, you know, I've said in a couple of forums, but maybe just to share here, you know, I think when we talk about a 100 million euro incremental investment You know, the reality for me is that's a small portion of our overall capital, and so I don't think you'll see us focus on that metric going forward. What I will say about the business is I was pleased with the wins. I'm pleased on the book to bill in IP networks overall. The reality, as we all know, is that, you know, we're still a fairly small player in this space, well behind some of the market leaders overall. So we're at the start of a journey. But the announcements we've made I think are positive. The metrics are positive. It's much more work to be done longer term.

Did you have a quick follow-up, Arson?

Yes, absolutely. So maybe more general questions. So looking at your growth opportunities when it comes to AI and cloud. So it was 6% of sales in the quarter, so increased compared to Q2. But in general, looking at the next couple of years, where do you see the biggest growth opportunities looking at different customer segments? So whether it's like hyperscalers, enterprise, or super insight, where do you see the biggest opportunity for you?

Yeah, I think, first of all, the biggest opportunity is clearly in the hyperscalers and the Neo clouds that's driving most of the demand. Obviously, the Partnership with N-scale is a good example of our focus in this area. We've made other announcements in the past. And we also believe that, you know, that sovereign clouds will present, you know, significant opportunity for us over time. As we've talked about before, we're optimistic about the work that's being done in the EU as well as in other regions. So we think that these are all important growth segments for us. But clearly, you know, the demand today is largely coming from the hyperscalers and some of the larger neoclouds.

Thanks, Artem. We'll take our next question from Simon Leopold from Raymond James. Simon, please go ahead.

Appreciate it. Thank you for taking the question. So nice to hear about the progress in the hyperscalers. I want to dig a little bit more deeply here in that more recently we've heard about an application referred to as Scale Across for optics, which I think of as basically data center interconnect on steroids. Could you talk a little bit about what this means for Nokia in particular and how you see that as an opportunity?

Yeah, sure, Simon. And I think it's something that's been around, you know, obviously scale up or what's been talked about as scale across has been in networks and data centers for a long time in certain parts of the market. So this isn't a new technology, but what is happening is as we push bandwidth demands, which obviously the AI data centers are driving, it's creating new demand for innovation in that space. And I think this is where, you know, the assets we have I think are well positioned. It's not a place where I can tell you, we can point to it and say we've got, you know, material revenue today. It's still early days. But I do think if you look at our assets here, particularly what we're doing in Indian phosphide with the FAB, the ability to build optical components down on, you know, on the Indian phosphide silicon and innovate in packaging in these areas, We think we've got technology that can be relevant here. But obviously, as bandwidth demands continue in networks, you know, both scale across and scale out, which is what we typically call, you know, what we typically see in top-of-rack networking and IP switching, both of those create tremendous opportunity for us. And the way I would dimensionalize the opportunity in optical is, we'll share more of this at CMD, is that every time you get to the next unit, if you go from the long-haul networks to the metro networks to the data center, now inside the data center, then inside the rack, each one of those has incremental opportunity at a volume level. Of course, there's a performance and cost delta you have to hit as well because what we build for long-haul networks is obviously going to be significantly more you know, more expensive than what you'd have to build to fit inside of a server, inside of a rack. So there's a part of this that will, you know, will require us to continue to innovate in this space. And you'll hear more about it in our discussions at CMG.

Did you have a follow-up, Simon?

Sure. Thank you. Yeah, I presume we'll talk about the long-term strategy, of course, at the Capital Markets Day. But I'm wondering if you could provide us a few thoughts on how Nokia's plan is regarding 6G mobility investments. Have you started investing? Is that in the R&D today? Is it something that starts in 26 or is it something further out in time? I'm just really focused on modeling for the moment because I expect we'll hear some more at the Capital Markets Day next month. Thank you.

Yep, yeah, so on technology standardization, which is obviously very important and relevant for tech, that work has already started and the investment is ongoing. And as I touched on in my comments, we're going to go through a bit of an investment. You go through a bit of an investment cycle in that space. So that ramp is happening, and we obviously reiterated confidence on the ongoing profit outlook for Nokia Technologies as a part of that. So I think that gives you some indication from a modeling standpoint. For MN, you know, we are, we've talked about this publicly. We're doing work on early on 6G, you know, I'd say pre-standard 6G radio technology. There's more, you know, there's more work here. I think the thing for me in this space is, you know, and Simon, I've talked about this a little bit in comments as well, is I think there's a lot of focus on, for obvious reasons, on the G transition, you know, the 3G, 4G, 5G, 6G. I actually think what's more important for us is what we've done in cloud and network services, which is the pivot transition. to a cloud-native core, and then you look at the results and the performance on share capture and revenue growth, I think that's a good indicator for how we're going to start to think about the opportunity in RAN, which is as we go into AI and, you know, NMN, yes, there's going to be a new generation of radios in terms of, you know, hopefully frequencies with spectrum approvals and, of course, 6G data. 6G capabilities in terms of spectral efficiency. But there's a lot more to do in terms of radio capabilities and features. And we've got, you know, this is why we announced things like the AI RAN Alliance, you know, previously. It's where we see opportunity with our work in Cloud RAN, for example. And I think that's where, you know, we'll continue to invest. What we'll unpack for you is that, you know, these are things that we need to we need to focus on and invest and innovate and, of course, continue to work closely with customers. So we'll unpack that for you at CMD as well as how we're approaching that. But I wouldn't assume that we haven't, you know, it's a binary thing where we haven't started. It's a part of ongoing investment.

Thanks, Simon. We'll take our next question from Alex Duval from Goldman Sachs. Alex, please go ahead.

Yes, thank you so much for the question. Firstly, just dovetailing off the Last question. I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about the long-term tech strategy on wireless. Just in the short term, you talked about a measure of stabilization there. I wondered if you could give a bit more color as to the extent to which that's driven by the RAN market in your most important geographies versus progress you've made on your product. And then secondly, it was interesting to hear in your prepared remarks about how You will focus on cost control by ongoing steps like digitalization rather than large restructuring programs. I wondered if, at this point, you could talk a bit more about what motivates that shift and the benefits this brings. Many thanks.

Maybe we'll start with the second part.

Marco, you want to talk about that at all? Yeah, absolutely. And what comes to cost savings, just like I mentioned in my introduction as well, so thinking is that cost. Operational leverage is extremely important for us, and continuous improvement is something that we want to get in our genes. Every entity basically continuously finds ways how can we continuously improve and do things more efficiently. And, of course, here it comes quite naturally in the new technologies, you know, utilizing AI and other digitalization opportunities that you can find. And that's why IT simplification is extremely important in this and securing that we can actually get the benefit out of those different installations of AI that we have and continuously work on the process simplification and find ways how we can make the processes more efficient continuously. It's not a one-off action. It's something that you have to do continuously.

Yeah, and then in terms of the market outlook, first of all, I think you're pretty clear from what we've been saying that if you think about the AI and cloud market growing rapidly, the CSP market broadly has been quite stable. So as we think about that, you know, when I look at our results, I think stabilizing in MN in terms of our performance, you know, being predictable, there's always puts and takes. There's going to be ups and downs in the quarter and variance based on, you know, a given customer's volume in one quarter. So, you know, we'll see a little bit of that. But when you look at the longer-term trends, I think, you know, we're – we're feeling better about a stabilizing environment. And then on cloud and network services, as I touched on, you know, we believe that, you know, we believe we're growing above market rates at this point.

Thanks, Alex. We'll take our next question from Sami Sarkomish from Danske Bank. Sami, please go ahead.

Hi, thanks. Could you please elaborate on the factors that drove the positive surprise in the third quarter as you had anticipated similar sales and margins as in Q2? And when we think about Q4, you also mentioned a strong order book, but do you have still uncertainties related to timing of deliveries as you chose not to narrow the guidance range down?

Yeah, thank you, Sami. And what comes to that, if you look at cross-margin development and in different businesses, you can see that we had a very good development in cloud and network services. And here, as you understand, this business has been quite frequently so that you get a big part of the profits in quarter four. Now, this year, we have been working actively to try to actually balance that distribution of profits more equally between the different quarters. But at the same time, you see also that we have increased our cross margins, and there's a few reasons for this. One is, of course, that we've seen a good traction on 5G standalone core implementations where we have been very successful gaining market share. And then, of course, we've been working quite a long time in the CNS as well to clean up the portfolio. And this, of course, giving results as well. And the third point I would say as well is that also in our core business, CNS has been working heavily to take costs out and make things more efficiently, and by that, improving the margin levels.

Did you have a follow-up, Sami?

Maybe a detailed question on the 6% exposure to AI and cloud in the third quarter. I think you mentioned 5% hyperscaler exposure after Q2. These are different metrics, right?

These are comparable, Sammy. So think of the 5% as 6% as Q3.

Thanks, Sammy. We'll take our next question from Richard Kramer from Arete. Richard, please go ahead.

Thanks. Justin, when we look at your competitors into the various NI divisions, many of them are point solutions in one or another of the fields of routing optics are fixed. In the current hyperscaler and tech, are these areas being kept separate, or do you think that the end-to-end promise we heard about so much from both of the prior CEOs at Nokia is finally being realized, at least within NII?

Well, I think a couple of things on this, Richard. So first of all, for me, you know, clearly fixed access is its own business. And, you know, the technology and innovation there is coming out of a few markets. I mean, the largest one for us, obviously, is in the U.S., but there's other markets where we're seeing technology and innovation opportunities and And so I think that's almost its own trend. And obviously I shared the discussion around the 50-gig pond. But this capability that we have to allow you to add new technologies in line in your terminals we think is a true differentiator. We hear that from customers. The customers using it believe it gives them value because they don't have to invest in a complete infrastructure upgrade to overhaul. The key message there is we're competing on the technology's merits itself. And I think if you look at, you know, IP switching and certainly in optical networking, I would say the same. We've got to win on the technical merits themselves. I mean, we've got, you know, we've got very capable customers across our portfolio, AI and cloud, as well as CSPs that want to buy, you know, best of breed technologies and enable, you know, their solutions and execute on their strategies and deliver value to their customers. And Our focus has to be on doing the things that add value to them. And where I think there's leverage and synergy for us is being able to see what's happening across these markets and bring greater scale and innovation to them. But I think that, you know, for me, the term isn't end-to-end. You've always got to have best-of-breed products. breast-of-breed technology. And then you've got to be able to leverage the ecosystem so that you're, you know, obviously you're better together, but it's not something that we do that we could have a deficiency in one area. That's certainly not how we think about it.

And just building on what Justin said, that, of course, the compatibility is very important. So that's a benefit that we can get compared to competition, which only go with one product. And when we come with several products, and they are best of breed and customers buy those, that those actually work well together.

Did you have a follow-up, Richard?

Yeah, quickly for Marco, we saw a reduction in your forecast restructuring cash outflows from $450 to $350 and an increase of $50 million in gross cost savings. Is this Nokia finally transitioning from what's been a decade-long restructuring to maybe being able to focus more beyond 26 on just growth?

Yeah, I would say that the important thing is that we want to avoid this large-scale restructuring programs going forward and more get this into our DNA as continuous improvement and focus and secure that we continuously find ways how we can take out costs in our fixed cost basis and our operations and utilize all the digitalization opportunities that could bring instead of doing these large-scale cost-cutting programs. So that's our focus going forward.

Thanks, Richard. We'll take our next question from Felix Anderson from Nordea. Felix, please go ahead.

Hi, thanks for taking my question. Good to see Infinera turning positive on operating profit contribution, and I wanted to ask about that, that in light of the progress that you've made on integration, do you see the $200 million in run rate operating profit synergies for 2027 as conservative, and are these savings something that you will have to reinvest in the growth process? in the optical business, kind of what you're doing in the IP side of things. Thanks.

Yeah, multiple questions in there. So let me sort of answer. First of all, yeah, we'll provide a full update at CMB on our view. But I would say, you know, certainly well on track on our commitments, as we've talked about on the cost synergies, clearly with the growth that we're seeing ahead of our ahead of our expectations on top line synergies. And then I think in terms of investment, what I would say is we'll talk more about that in CMD, but, you know, we're going to be very disciplined in capital allocation. Obviously, you saw one dimension of that with our decision on venture funds this quarter. But this is a place where, you know, where if we see the opportunity to accelerate, you know, accelerate or enhance returns, we'll make continued investments. But right now, You know, again, pleased to be on track on the cost synergies and thrilled to be running ahead of expectations on revenue.

Thanks, Felix. We'll take our next question from Rob Saunders from Deutsche Bank. Rob, please go ahead.

Yeah, hi. I just had a question on mobile networks. there's some speculation that the EU will apply pressure on some member countries to accelerate their swap out of Chinese vendors. So I'm just interested in that and how you think about that given your recent public statements. And then, of course, I just want to talk a bit about OPEX, you know, how you think about OPEX into next year given you clearly wanted to invest more in these growth areas.

Thanks. Yeah. So, Rob, thanks for that. I mean, obviously, we would love to see regulations in the EU that create the market opportunity you're talking about. And I think it's important from a high-risk vendor standpoint. It's also important just from a sovereignty perspective in terms of having the two largest providers of networks in the West being European. I think that's important. We're optimistic that we would be able to – you know, to obviously grow and that's, you know, capture some portion of that market if it was available. Number two in terms of just like OPEX question was really, you know, really just around operating leverage. I think our, you know, my push is really specific on this is I want to see us drive operating leverage. something Marco touched on in his comments. But the reason for that is because I want to be able to maximize returns in terms of capturing value from the business we have, and then deploy capital in areas where we think we can win, things like incremental R&D if there's demand in the market, things like, you know, increasing factory capacity and in optics to the extent that we see opportunities there. And, you know, it's important we talk a lot about the fabrication facilities. You know, these are far smaller than you think of a fabrication facility in silicon. And actually, the investment sizes are much smaller. And again, we'll unpack more of that for you at CMB. But those are the kinds of things I want to be able to deploy capital into. Obviously, incremental sales coverage where we're seeing growth in AI. But I would think of all of this as, you know, is driving enhanced returns not, you know, not something that's going to, you know, not going to dilute our performance, and that's key.

Thanks, Rob. We'll take our next question from Andre Gardner from Citi. Andre, please go ahead.

Thank you, David. Morning, all. I just have one on gross profitability, please, both, I suppose, on the positive side in what you've seen in CNS and then perhaps on the more negative side with mobile networks. We're seeing quite a lot of volatility quarter to quarter. You know, CNS clearly driven nicely in 3Q by the mix towards 5G core. Is that mix sustainable? And so, you know, a high 40s gross margin for CNS is what we should be anticipating. Yes, perhaps with some quarterly fluctuation, but, you know, perhaps not to the extent that we've been seeing. Can you sustain that? gross margins around that level. And then similarly, on the other side with mobile, 41% in the prior quarter, down to 35% in the current quarter. Yes, I understand, again, software mix has changed, but quite dramatic moves. What do you think is sort of a more normalized level, given the revenue run rate that you're at in mobile? What's the more normalized level of gross margins for MN at this point? Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. If I started with the mobile network side, there is variability, and that's why we usually say that mobile networks would be better to look on an annual basis or four quarters because you have always some product mix fluctuations. The level of software has a big impact on cross-margin networks. And that you see also between quarter two and quarter three where we see this fluctuation between those quarters where you have more software in quarter two and less in quarter three. And I would say that if you look on a longer term or annual basis, then you can see the levels of mobile networks, cross margins, and get an understanding of where it is and how we are tracking compared to previous year. And then what comes to CNS, I mentioned earlier already a few points there that what about the reasons for the improved cost margins, and we definitely believe that It is sustainable, and this has been a multi-year journey to get the improvements here, clean up the portfolio, focus on cost out on the different products that we have, but also we see the market support here. It took for a while before the 5G standalone core started to get traction actually from our customer side and CSP side. Now we've seen in the past 18 months that it actually have been quite positive and we have momentum there. And thanks to our cloud-based solution that we have, we have actually gained market share and been able to improve our market position.

Thanks, Andrew. We'll take our next question from Daniel Gerberg from Handelsbanken. Daniel, please go ahead.

Yeah, thank you, and congrats to strong numbers. I actually would like to continue on that question I had to say more or less. On the mobile networks, the software upgrades on standalone seems not to be in tandem, at least with the CNS on the 5G core. So should we expect to have a little bit of an upgrade in the, you know, baseband software, radio unit software, or ahead of us, on back of the 5G standalone core now being lit on? Thanks.

Usually, I can start, and Justin, if you have anything you can add as well. What usually happens is, in the new generation, is that if you first install the hardware basement and radios. And when you see that the demand increases on the customer side, then you actually implement the core as well. When you see that actually you need those features that the new generation can offer. And this is exactly the same example here in 5G. In the beginning, the 4G core was still functional quite well on the early 5G installations. And now when there's more opportunities to slice and dice the network, you need actually a 5G standalone core to be able to capture those opportunities and offer those services to a customer base.

I would just add a couple of things. I think we're, you know, we want to make sure we're clear on the Q2 to Q3 margin impact in MN is timing because of how we release software in this portfolio, which is we release an upgrade. We then recognize the revenue of those upgrades as they get deployed into customers, and they, you know, largely customers take the release. And so that's the timing dimension between Q2 and Q3, but also realize that the MN baseband software, which is the majority of the software revenue we have in mobile networks today, is still largely, you know, in a legacy, what I would call more legacy appliance model. Cloud and network services or our core networks have moved to a cloud model. And that means you have much, you know, we have more subscription-based pricing. We have more rateable deployment. That means customers will, you know, will be paying on a recurring revenue basis for an ongoing support, you know, ongoing support and service. So whether it's, you know, subscription-based, you know, It's a very different, it's a different business model in that dynamic. You know, obviously, we think that's the long-term direction of travel and mobile, but that's not where the market is today. Today, you know, our Cloud RAM business is fairly small.

Did you have a quick follow-up, Daniel?

Yes, please. Yeah, just a question on a little bit on your work already in Q2. commented to unify corporate functions, simplify work, et cetera, and more change culture to unlock operating leverage. And then you've seen quite large changes, especially in the new CTO office. And the question is on the Nokia Bell Labs organization. Should we expect this to be more focusing on AI data center than on the mobile networks and radio access networks ahead, given the departure of Nissan Patra?

Yeah, look, I think for me a couple things. First of all, I talked about functional excellence, which was the purpose around the corporate functions, and I think having a leader that is the chief technology and AI officer that's focused on technology and AI, key areas of our platforms, AI, security, cloud, all of those elements that we're touching on or talking around in this call today, is very important and having someone who's excellent in that but also understands fixed, you know, our fixed network infrastructure business and mobile infrastructure. And if you look at Pallavi's background, she has a career where she's done both, you know, across Juniper, HPE, and then also at Intel. And then, you know, the other thing was focused around corporate development, and that was not just out of you know, the strategy organization, but also bringing together some of the corporate development folks we had within the business groups and also within the finance organization. So for me, this is all about, you know, around functional excellence and aligning accountability and having cleaner, you know, cleaner and simple functions. And then obviously we also moved the digital office of the IT organization into finance, which really ties back to the focus that Marco touched on in his comments around the you know, driving ongoing improvement, ongoing productivity, and enabling that through digitization, through AI, through simplification around processes. And obviously, you know, IT is an important part of how you both, you know, both simplify and standardize and realize those benefits. So we felt like that was a natural alignment. So I think that's the way I would think about it. I think it's important, you know, we have two compelling assets in both our network infrastructure business and our mobile portfolios. And we need a CTO that can look across all of that and also make sure that we're thinking about the right long-term investments in Nokia Bell Labs, whether it's from a research or from a nearer-term innovation standpoint.

Thanks, Daniel. We'll take our next question from Emil Eminen from DNB Carnegie. Emil, please go ahead.

Hi, can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you now.

Thanks for taking my question. So I wanted to maybe ask a little bit on the demand in Europe in general. So on the revenue decline on some parts in NI and also in mobile networks in Europe, do you see that this is more, let's say, structural or would you say that this is temporary in the way that Europe is just not investing right now? How do you see this developing going forward?

Yeah, I think in terms of CSPs, you know, I think that I would say telcos, it's stabilizing demand. And, you know, we think that's a good thing. Obviously, we talked about the potential of upside in Europe over time if there's regulation that, you know, that addresses high risk vendor status. But I think, you know, overall, that feels, you know, that feels pretty good. And then Look, you know, we're excited about the potential of AI and data center business in Europe. We're certainly excited about the opportunity, you know, partnership we have at Nscale and the opportunity, you know, for other companies to invest in Europe. And so we like the trends of what we're seeing, but the reality is the majority of the investment today is happening in the U.S. And so as you look at our revenues and you look at our profile, you know, the demand is coming from the U.S., and I think that's – that's important. So that's how I would net it out.

Did you have a quick follow-up on that?

Yeah, maybe quickly touching on the private wireless side. The customer numbers grow nicely, but you haven't really discussed it at all in terms of revenue or anything. Could you say how is that part of the business going?

Yeah, I can just, just like you said, we've seen a nice increase in number of customers. But remember, we're still in very early phase of this journey. And even if growth rates are pretty good, but it will take some time before this will be a meaningful business. So it's worth, you know, focusing more about that.

Yeah, and I would just add, I think our, you know, if you look at where we are today, I think Marco summarized it well. I would tell you that where I see our biggest opportunity is in focused vertical markets, vertical market use cases. And so, there's some examples in railways, for example, and utilities is the other, right? So, if you look at those, those are the places where we've got opportunity. But again, this goes back to that message of focus.

Thanks, Emil. Our next question from Sebastian Stabovitz from Capri Shiver. Sebastian, please go ahead.

Yeah, hi everyone. Thanks for taking my question. Coming back to mobile networks, your business is going back to moderate organic growth in the third quarter, but you remain close to break-even rather of those days. How do you plan to return to more decent margins in the coming years? Maybe not double-digit, but maybe high-finger-digit? Is it more cost-cutting? Is it more to support your revenue with more growth opportunity? And the second question is also linked to mobile. We have heard some comments that the Chinese government could be looking to push the network vendors in Europe outside the Chinese market. Is this something that you already see in your order intake in China or is it not something that you see already in your business? Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I addressed this a little bit in my comments. I mean, I think on mobile networks, we're absolutely, you know, one of my priorities right now is on improving the returns. And I think we do that in a couple of ways. You know, continued tight focus and tight engagement with customers. It ties a little bit to the second question you asked, which I'll address in a minute. But tight, focused engagement with customers, particularly those customers that want to co-innovate and collaborate with us. because I think differentiation for us longer term comes through innovation and technology leadership. That was historically where the market was. I would say that, obviously, if you go back five years, the company's business was in dire straits because we weren't in that case. We've now stabilized the portfolio. But as an industry, and I think certainly as a player in this industry, we need to continue to innovate. So that's as much of a preview as I'll give you to – to CFD, but I'd encourage you to attend. But I think, you know, absolutely, that's the line of where we're headed. And then in terms of China, you know, this is one of the places where we've largely, you know, we're largely not exposed. The revenue in China has come down massively over the last few years. So, you know, the reality is it's a fraction of our revenue today and our market share is fractional in mobile networks in China. It's not a core market for us. So the communications from the government, obviously we follow those closely. We respect and support their decisions. And the reality for us is we're going to focus on markets where we believe there's significant opportunity and customers where we believe we can collaborate and innovate. And I think there's more opportunity ahead for us.

Thanks, Sebastian. We'll take our last question from Didier Esquimama from Bank of America. Didier, please go ahead.

Yeah, good morning. Thanks, David, and thanks for taking my question. A question for Justin, really. You've been in the job now for a few months. I just wondered if you could share your thoughts about the direction of the business strategically, especially when it comes to the mobile networks, the core activities, and also IPR, which are vastly different, I guess, from you know, your day-to-day activities, which presumably are focused on getting those AI and cloud contracts. So that was my first question, and I've got a quick follow-up. Thank you.

Sure. So, Didier, look, I think probably nothing I haven't shared in my comments. I think we have two businesses, network infrastructure and mobile businesses in the portfolio. I mean, obviously, if you look at the comps, there's four major providers of mobile infrastructure. They all have three things. They have core networks. They have radio networks, which is what we call MN, and they have IP licensing, which is what we call tech. So I think we've got a pretty clear, you know, it's pretty clear you need the full portfolio. If you look at the players that have not had the full portfolio, they've all struggled to innovate or sustain a foothold. And so I think that's, you know, for me, number one. In terms of the difference, look, as I've said before, I think connectivity is going to be an area where, you know, performant, reliable, and trusted providers are going to be very valuable. And the reality is we have a portfolio that plays across all of those core elements of connectivity. What we're seeing today with AI, and I think the thing that, you know, candidly we were we weren't capturing as historical Nokia prior to the Infinera acquisition as much as we could have was the fact that in our optical and IP businesses, the market, the technology investment or the technology leadership had shifted to cloud and now AI and cloud. So now we're starting to capture some of that. Like I said, I'm pleased with the progress there. And I think you're going to see those same trends happen and roll into mobile over time because ultimately if you think about some of the compelling uses of AI, autonomous vehicles, robotics, smart glasses, virtual reality, augmented reality, they all need mobile connectivity. And I think that will be favorable. But I don't know if the answer, I don't think the answer is going to be doing the same thing we've always done. I think we have to continue to innovate. And that's why I like what we've done in cloud and network services with setting up an autonomous cloud-native core stack. And I think there's more opportunity for us to have in mobile networks. Again, it's going to require the things I talked about, focus, collaboration and co-innovation with customers and, you know, an emphasis on best of breed technology and strong partnerships.

You had a quick follow-up, Didier?

Yeah, completely unrelated on the Nokia technology side. So, I mean, Nokia sold their phone business to Microsoft, what, 10 years ago or so. So I just wondered, how is the innovation pipeline in the IPR business for, you know, the non-standard essential patents? Is there a risk of a cliff at some point as you're not in the phone business? Or are you, you know, confident that you can continue to monetize the ACPs and non-ACPs at least at the current level?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think this is a good question. So just back to the comment I just made, again, every player of scale in mobile infrastructure has has a strong IP business, what we call tech. With the changes, I didn't touch on this in my earlier comments, but with the changes we made in the CTO office, we've also now really tightly aligned the standards team into tech. But we see, you know, one, we see very good, you know, good stable revenue in the business. You know, we are, you know, we've said already we're starting to invest in 6G monetization. That's important for us. And we see other, you know, we also see other emerging revenue streams in other segments. So I think the business is very healthy. The team's doing an excellent job. They're also doing, I think, probably the best job of any of the businesses right now in pushing on operating leverage so that they can continue to deliver the performance they need to. And, you know, you'll hear a little more about that in CMD. So that's the last plug I'll make for CMD. But we'll talk about some of that as well there.

Thanks, Vivian. Thanks, Justin and Marco, for the comments. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. I would like to remind you that during the call today, we have made a number of forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results currently expected. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the risk factor section of our annual report on Form 20F, which is available on our Investor Relations website. Thank you for joining us.

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.