Piper Sandler Companies

Good morning and welcome to the Piper Sandler Company's fourth quarter and full year 2025 earnings conference call. Today's call is being recorded and will include remarks by Piper Sandler management, followed by a question and answer session. I'll begin by turning the call over to Kate Winslow. Please go ahead.

Thank you, operator. Good morning and thank you for joining the Piper Sandler Company's fourth quarter and full year 2025 earnings conference call. Hosting the call today are Chairman and CEO Chad Abraham, our President Deb Shoneman, and CFO Kate Kloon. Earlier this morning, we issued a press release announcing Piper Sandler's fourth quarter and full year 2025 financial results, which is available on our website at pipersandler.com slash earnings. Today's discussion of the results is complimentary to the press release. A replay of this call will also be available at that same website later today. Before we begin, let me remind you that remarks made on today's call may contain forward-looking statements that are not historical or current facts, including statements about beliefs and expectations, and involve inherent risks and uncertainties. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those anticipated are identified in the company's reports on file with the SEC, which are available on our website at PiperSandler.com and on the SEC website at SEC.gov. Today's discussion also includes statements regarding certain non-GAAP financial measures that management believes are meaningful when evaluating the company's performance. The non-GAAP measures should be considered in addition to, and not a substitute for, measures of financial performance prepared in accordance with GAAP. A reconciliation of these non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measure is provided in our earnings release issued today. I will now turn the call over to Chad.

Thank you, Kate. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us. Our business performed well during 2025, driven by strong execution and improving market conditions. We had a strong finish to the year with record adjusted net revenues of $635 million in the fourth quarter, a 27.2% operating margin, and adjusted EPS of $6.88. On a full year basis, adjusted net revenues were $1.9 billion, achieving a 21.9% operating margin, and adjusted EPS of $17.74. There are a number of highlights from 2025. Adjusted net revenues grew 22% with contributions from all businesses, resulting in a 39% increase in adjusted net income compared to 2024. We delivered a record year in advisory with over $1 billion of revenues, representing 55% of total net revenues. We grew our investment banking MD headcount to 187 managing directors and meaningfully increased productivity per banker. We completed the acquisition of G-Squared, complementing other key hires to expand and strengthen our technology investment banking practice. We generated record revenues in equity brokerage and recorded our second best year in both public finance and fixed income brokerage. We returned $239 million to shareholders through share repurchases and dividends. 2025 marks another successful year for Piper Sandler. We have now achieved nine consecutive quarters of year-over-year growth, underscoring our strong execution and sustained momentum. This progress is supported by our ongoing investments in the business, the diversification of our sector and product capabilities, and an improving market backdrop. 2025 also marked our firm's 130th anniversary. The foundation of our success is serving the best interests of clients, employees, shareholders, and the communities where we live and work. I'd like to thank my employee partners for their continued hard work and dedication to providing best-in-class service to our clients. Turning now to corporate investment banking. During the fourth quarter, we generated $469 million of revenues, up meaningfully over the prior year, driven by robust M&A activity, as well as solid debt capital markets advisory activity. For the year, corporate investment banking revenues totaled $1.3 billion, representing a 28% increase from the prior year. Sector contributions were diverse, as five out of seven industry teams grew revenues versus 2024. Within corporate investment banking, advisory revenues for the quarter were $403 million, up 44% year-over-year. Our financial services and services and industrial teams led sector performance. For the year, advisory services generated $1 billion in revenues, up 28% from 2024, and exceeded our previous high watermark from 2021. This reflected a strong relative performance compared to a 7% growth rate in overall M&A activity in the middle market. During 2025, we completed 335 advisory transactions, 16% more than the prior year, and earned higher average fees. Advisory revenues from both corporate and sponsor clients were up meaningfully year over year. We were ranked as the number two advisor based on number of announced U.S. M&A deals under $1 billion. In addition, non-M&A advisory generated another record year and increasingly constitutes a meaningful amount of our total advisory revenues. Industry team contributions were led by financial services, followed by a record year from services and industrials, and solid contributions from our healthcare, energy, power and infrastructure, and consumer sectors. Our performance within financial services was led by depositories, where a more accommodating regulatory environment bolstered a resurgence in bank M&A activity. We were the number one advisor in U.S. bank M&A based on the number of announced transactions during 2025. Additionally, we saw solid contributions from our insurance, asset management, and specialty finance subsectors. Record performance from our services and industrials team in 2025 was was driven by larger transactions generating higher average fees. These results reflect investments we've made in this sector, developing and recruiting exceptional bankers with deep client relationships, particularly with the financial sponsors community. In addition, our non-M&A advisory teams have been a key driver of performance. In recent years, we have made substantial investments in these advisory capabilities to expand client offerings and increase market share. especially with private equity. The most meaningful components of our non-M&A advisory revenues are debt capital markets advisory, private capital advisory, and restructuring. Non-M&A revenues have outpaced the growth of our M&A revenues for several years and exceeded 25% of total advisory revenues in 2025. Our debt capital markets advisory business has been a significant contributor to this growth as it recorded its third consecutive year of record revenues, benefiting from higher average fees as well as a broader and more diversified client base. We also have significant opportunities within our private capital advisory group to leverage our sponsor relationships and sector expertise to further grow market share. Looking ahead, while several larger advisory transactions closed in the last week of 2025, our pipeline of engagement mandates is building, and we expect to see another strong year of advisory revenue in 2026. Corporate financing markets were solid throughout the quarter, and we generated $67 million of revenues. We completed 31 financings, raising $15 billion for corporate clients, with activity centered in healthcare and depository sectors. For the year, corporate financing revenues of $217 million increased 25% from 2024 to driven by a strong second half of the year. During 2025, we completed 122 equity, debt, and preferred financings, raising $48 billion for corporate clients. Sector contributions for the year were again led by our healthcare team, which served as book runner on 37 of the 38 equity deals they priced during 2025. And we participated in all six MedTech IPOs that priced in the market. Our financial services team also contributed a strong underwriting performance in 2025, pricing 65 transactions that raised $19 billion in capital for our clients. As we look ahead, January financing activity has been strong. Our pipeline of new issues is healthy, and we are seeing strong demand from institutional investors looking to deploy capital across sectors. Shifting to talent. We finished the year with 187 investment banking managing directors. While our net MD headcount increased modestly from 2024 levels, we strengthened our talent base and improved productivity, helping to drive profitability in the business. Over the last 10 years, we have grown MD headcount at a 10% CAGR. We're consistently looking for talented partners who strengthen the platform and position us for growth in our product and sector teams. expand our geographic reach, or add additional capabilities to support our clients. Overall, our 2025 results were strong and were pleased with our performance. The combination of improved activity levels, strong execution across business lines, and a constructive market environment resulted in excellent financial returns. We've entered 2026 with good momentum, strong client engagement, and an accommodative regulatory environment, and meaningful opportunities to gain share. Before handing it off to Deb, I'd like to highlight a recent leadership announcement. In January, we named J.P. Peltier as co-head of investment banking and capital markets. J.P. will co-head the group alongside Mike Dillahunt and James Baker, who have served together as global heads of investment banking and capital markets since 2021. J.P. is a 25-year veteran of Piper Sandler, an exceptional banker, and growth-oriented team builder. He recently served as co-head of the Healthcare Investment Banking Group, where his leadership helped build a market-leading franchise. I am confident that J.P., Mike, and James will successfully lead our corporate investment banking business to accomplish the medium-term goal of growing annual revenues to $2 billion plus in the coming years. With that, I will turn the call over to Deb to discuss our public finance and brokerage business.

Thanks, Chad. I'll begin with an update on our public finance business, where market conditions remain favorable, with record issuance levels driven by funding needs for infrastructure upgrades and strong investor demand. We generated $39 million of municipal financing revenues for the quarter, flat sequentially and down 5% compared to the strong prior year quarter. For 2025, we generated $146 million of municipal financing revenues, our second strongest year on record. These results reflect the diversification of our business and strong relative performance. Our revenues increased 19% over last year, exceeding the municipal negotiated market issuance growth of 12%. We underwrote 555 municipal negotiated transactions during 2025, raising $19 billion of par value for our clients. Additionally, we maintained our position as the number two underwriter based on number of transactions. Activity was solid across both our governmental and specialty businesses, reflective of our client and geographic reach. Performance was broad-based, with strong results in Texas, California, Oregon, and the Midwest, as well as our special district healthcare and hospitality sectors. In addition to revenue growth, we've focused on local market relationships and knowledge to strengthen our market leadership in our core sectors. Our special district team has 50% market share in the states in which they compete, and we ranked number two nationally in K-12 education by number of issues and power amount. In terms of outlook for 2026, we anticipate public finance market conditions to remain favorable with similar issuance volumes to 2025, albeit back to the more normalized seasonality. Our equity brokerage business finished 2025 at record highs, following a year with strong volumes and volatility. Fourth quarter 2025 equity brokerage revenues of 64 million, a quarterly record, led to record revenues of 230 million for the full year. These results demonstrate successful collaboration and the integration of products and investments across our platform. The strength of our platform attracted approximately 1,700 unique clients, and we traded 11 billion shares on their behalf in 2025. As we look forward to 2026, we expect our equity brokerage revenues to be similar to 2025. And last, we generated $48 million of fixed income revenues for the fourth quarter, down from both the strong third quarter and year-ago period. For 2025, we generated $203 million of fixed income revenues, up 9% from the prior year, driven by robust activity with our depository clients. The increase in bank M&A activity during the year, along with depository clients adjusting to the changing rate environment, provided more opportunities to advise on balance sheet repositioning. We also experienced healthy growth across other client verticals, including asset managers and public entities. From a product perspective, both municipal and taxable fixed income showed significant growth year over year. We continue to elevate the platform by investing in talent that expands our product expertise and enhances client relationships, allowing us to provide differentiated advice. In our municipal franchise, we've established ourselves as a trusted advisor with a specialized sales force able to find liquidity for our institutional clients. In the taxable space, we have expanded our expertise in structured products with experienced talent and leadership. As we look to 2026, we expect clients to be more active in anticipation of further rate cuts and anticipate additional work stemming from a robust M&A environment. Now, I will turn the call over to Kate to review our financial results and provide an update on capital use.

Thanks, Deb. My comments will address our adjusted non-GAAP financial results which should be considered in addition to and not a substitute for the corresponding GAAP financial measures. For the fourth quarter of 2025, we generated net revenues of $635 million, operating income of $172 million, and an operating margin of 27.2%. Net income totaled $123 million and diluted EPS was $6.88. For 2025, net revenues totaled $1.9 billion, operating income was $411 million, and our operating margin was 21.9%. We generated $318 million of net income and $17.74 of diluted EPS. Net revenues for the fourth quarter of 2025 increased 39% from the sequential quarter and grew 27% over the fourth quarter of last year. This growth was driven by robust advisory revenues, the second strongest quarter on record. For the year, Net revenues increased 22% compared to 2024, powered by a 28% growth in advisory revenues, as well as strong performance across the rest of our businesses. Turning to expenses. We reported a compensation ratio of 60.1% for the fourth quarter of 2025 and 61.4% for the full year. Both ratios improved from the comparable periods of 2024, driven by increased net revenues and continued operating disciplines. We continue to drive leverage where possible while balancing employee retention and strategic investment opportunities. We expect our 2026 compensation ratio to be similar to 2025. For the fourth quarter of 2025, non-compensation expenses, excluding reimbursed deal costs, were $67 million. Including reimbursed deal expenses, non-compensation costs were $81 million, or 12.7% of net revenues. This ratio improved 440 basis points from the third quarter and 270 basis points from the fourth quarter of last year. Non-compensation costs for 2025, excluding reimbursed deal expenses, were $271 million, an increase of 8% compared to last year. The increase in expenses was driven by three factors, increased business activity, relocating our Minneapolis headquarters office, and investments in the business, including technology and related consulting fees, including reimbursed deal costs, non-compensation expenses for $315 million for the year, and our non-compensation ratio was 16.7%, an improvement of 160 basis points versus 2024. Looking ahead to 2026, we anticipate a modest increase to non-compensation expenses, with the most notable driver being the relocation of our New York office. Our diligent management of the fixed, controllable costs continues to be a key driver of leverage. Going forward, we expect our full-year non-compensation expense ratio to be similar to the 2025 level, with some variability across quarters depending on the timing of expenses. Moving to income tax expense. Our income tax rate for the fourth quarter was 28.5%. For the year, income tax expense was reduced by $30 million of tax benefits related to the vesting of restricted stock awards. which resulted in an income tax rate of 22.6%. Excluding the $30 million benefits, our effective tax rate was 29.8% for 2025. We continue to expect our full-year tax rate to be around 30%, excluding the impact from the vesting of restricted stock awards. Now finishing with capital. During the quarter, we returned an aggregate of $35 million, of capital to our shareholders through stock repurchases and quarterly dividends paid. In 2025, we returned an aggregate of $239 million to shareholders, which includes repurchases of approximately 421,000 shares of our common stock or $125 million related to employee tax withholding on the vesting of restricted stock awards, as well as in the open market. These repurchases offset the share count dilution for this year's annual grants. It also includes an aggregate of $114 million, or $5.70 per share, in dividends paid to shareholders during 2025 through our quarterly and special cash dividends. Given our level of earnings, today the Board approved a special cash dividend of $5 per share related to our full-year 2025 results. Including this special cash dividend and our quarterly dividends paid, Our total dividend for 2025 equals $7.70 per share of common stock, or a payout ratio of 43% of adjusted net income. In addition, the Board approved a quarterly cash dividend of $0.70 per share. Both the special and the quarterly cash dividends will be paid on March 13th to shareholders of record as of the close of business on March 3rd. Lastly, as part of our ongoing commitment to delivering shareholder value, I'm pleased to announce that the Board has approved a four-for-one forward split of our common stock to increase liquidity and help make our stock more accessible to a wider range of investors. The split will be accompanied by a proportionate increase in the number of shares of our authorized common stock. Our common stock will begin trading on the split-adjusted basis at the start of trading on March 24, 2026. 2025 marked another successful year for Piper Sandler. We grew revenues and profitability while furthering the strategic expansion of our businesses. Looking ahead, we remain focused on executing on our strategic priorities to drive continued growth and strong returns for our shareholders. With that, we can open up the call for questions.

Thank you. If you'd like to ask a question, please signal at pressing star 1 on your telephone keypad. If you are using speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment. Again, press star 1 to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment to allow everyone an opportunity to signal for questions. We'll take our first question from Devin Ryan with Citizens Bank.

Great. Good morning, everyone. How are you? Hey, I want to start on the advisory business. Obviously, I think terrific results on the year revenues up 28%, even though we had quite a bit of volatility earlier in the year. And then, you know, sponsors seem like they're just starting to really come back and reengage in a more meaningful way. So at the same time, your bank M&A is really picking up. So be great to just maybe talk through kind of those two components, like how much more activity you're seeing with sponsored clients today relative to maybe six months ago. And then the other piece we get, you know, questions from investors around is like order of magnitude in a more functioning bank consolidation backdrop. Like how much incremental revenue could that be for Piper relative to maybe what you were doing previously? There's another couple hundred million dollars on top or just any ways to kind of think that piece through. Thanks.

Yeah. Thanks, Devin. Yeah, maybe just to step back relative to the 28% growth, 2024 was a pretty good year for us, but on relative performance, we were a little probably off where we wanted to be in financial services and healthcare. Obviously, if those are your two biggest businesses, that has a big impact. Both those teams had very good years in 2025, which, you know, given our concentration in those sectors, that, you know, leads to outperformance when that happens. I would say relative to the sponsor business, you know, I do think we outperformed. I think it's been, frankly, you know, a pretty good market for a good six months here relative to deals we're getting done, deals we're getting closed. And I think that's really just emphasized by probably the team that had the biggest year, not in total revenues, but just in sort of step functions, was our diversified services and industrials team, which is pretty much entirely a private equity sponsor business. And then relative to Bank M&A, you know, obviously that was a big contributor for us both in M&A starting to refinance the balance sheets. You know, we see that continued pace. There's obviously a big deal recently announced, but I always do have to sort of stress that You know, it's part of our advisory business, which is part of the total, and depositories is only half of our financial services. So while it's important, it's a big part of the business, it's hard for just depositories to move the top line in any meaningful way.

Got it. Thanks, Chad. Appreciate it. And then just a follow up on this kind of capital allocation, but also kind of M&A opportunities for the firm. You're obviously generating a lot of capital right now, potentially accelerating Can you talk about potentially appetite to, I guess, one, buy back more stock in this environment, particularly with the stock being more liquid and creating more capital? And then two, as an outlet, you've been very active over the years on the M&A side. You've been able to do some really nice tuck-ins. What are you seeing on that front right now? And is that another kind of good use of capital? And could we potentially see some bigger deals in 2026? Just curious kind of how that fits in as you're thinking about capital allocation into 2026. Thanks.

And I would say relative to capital, I think for the last few years, we've been pretty consistent. We sort of need all the tools in the toolbox with the sort of cash we're generating and sort of not much of a need for new capital sort of besides investing in growth and acquisitions. You know, obviously, sort of in this order, we're always focused on the quarterly dividend. I do think as, you know, our liquidity has improved, as, you know, many of these acquisitions have matured, you know, it's also helped our float, obviously, with the stock split. So, you know, I think there'll be a chance for us to probably lean into the buyback a little more than we have in the past, just because, you know, we've always been conscious of that float. But I would say we really need all of those tools. And then, you know, number one is just We've delivered great returns in terms of the acquisitions and deals we've done. And I think we're in a really good environment for that from the perspective of we're doing really well. We've added a lot of products. I think the platform's appealing. But also, you know, some of these relationships we build over a few years and the time to transact those transactions, you know, while sometimes, you know, partners have to transact when Things are tougher. You know, they don't really choose to do that either. And so now that some of the boutiques and sectors we're seeing are seeing a bit of a recovery, I think there's a lot more interest on the south side. So I'm pretty optimistic about the pipeline there.

Okay. Sounds good. Thank you very much. I'll hop back in the queue. Appreciate it.

We'll go next to James Yarrow with Goldman Sachs.

Good morning, and thanks for taking the questions. Chad, you've had a lot of success adding new businesses in, for example, non-M&A advisory, and that's been a combination of organic and inorganic growth. Are there any other businesses you're looking at and that you're interested in potentially exploring or expanding into, and would you have to use the inorganic route to get into those businesses?

Yeah, I think you're obviously mostly talking about products we've added. I would say sort of certain products, you know, ebb and flow and then, you know, there's more and more interest. I would say right now relative to the product side, we've added quite a bit in terms of in the last five years, you know, restructuring, private capital advisory. Obviously, longer than that, 10-plus years ago, we added debt capital advisory. I think we're mostly focused right now on we've got a lot of runway in those products and sort of the collaboration. You know, we've recently done some analysis in some of those products in terms of how many of our bankers have used the various products, and there's just still a lot of upside there. So I think we're pretty focused on continuing – that penetration. But in some of our other businesses, obviously in equities, we added some of the private stock trading. So I always think we're evaluating that the bigger, stronger the platform gets, those opportunities become available.

Okay, great. And so you delivered quite healthy corporate financing results this quarter, but the equity markets are clearly struggling. Could you help us think through the puts and takes on the equity capital markets backdrop from here?

Yeah, no. And, you know, I've been doing this a long time, so I'm always reminded how quick and humbling the equity capital markets can be to your financing business. The big key is just to be diversified, you know, across those sectors. Obviously, healthcare is a big part of our equity capital markets. I would say relative to the recent sell-off, healthcare has performed quite a bit better. You know, this is obviously what we're in now is really led by a tech and software sell-off. So, you know, obviously those financings are going to be impacted in, you know, I don't know if you say we're one week or two weeks or three weeks into this, but we're pretty into it. But I've seen enough markets where it only takes a couple weeks and then it impacts the whole market and then accounts sort of shut down on due issues. But we had a very good January for ECM. But I think you're right to say we just don't spend a lot of time trying to predict more than a few weeks out what the market environment is going to be for new financings in ECM.

That's really clear. Thanks a lot.

We'll go next to Brendan O'Brien with Wolf Research.

Good morning, and thanks for taking my questions. I guess to start, I just wanted to touch on sponsors and get a sense as to how you would characterize the conversations that you're having with your sponsor clients at the moment. And just specifically, you know, whether there's been any notable shifts in the tenor of these discussions following the recent moves in equity markets that might further delay the acceleration and activity that everybody is hoping for in 2026.

Yeah, and I feel like I've been reasonably consistent on this. I mean, for us, it's, you know, the last couple of years just been a steady march of, you know, improvement, sort of nothing gangbusters, but more and more sponsors, you know, trying to get liquidity on their one or two top things. I think, you know, we had a really good kind of last summer, fall sort of pitch calendar, which obviously led to a really good end of the year. And, you know, and some of that trickles in. But I would also say just relative to market conditions, you know, unlike ECM, the sponsor over the A markets like turning the Titanic, it turns slow. We've been on that sort of slow improvement and sort of weekly jolts to, you know, interest rates or what's going on in the equity capital markets doesn't usually impact that. So I feel like we're just still getting slow, steady improvement. And, you know, that's really coming across in lots of products, you know, not just our sponsor M&A business, but we had a record year in our debt capital advisory business. And that's a heavy sponsor business. And, you know, We've added resources sort of in our private capital advisory business and the continuation vehicles. And while we saw some success kind of in our first full year last year, you know, we're now really positioned in that business for 2026.

Great. That's an excellent segue to my follow-up question, which is on your debt capital advisory and PCA businesses. You know, comments on the strong growth over the last couple of years definitely caught my attention, but just given the constructive outlook for M&A, I just wanted to get a sense as to whether you think these businesses can continue to keep pace with the growth in your M&A platform, and what do you see the growth potential for the PCA and debt capital markets advisory business in particular?

Yeah, I mean, this is the first time we've sort of disclosed what that mix of business on an annual basis is, just to give people a flavor of sort of the size and scale. For the last several years, it has outpaced. Now, some of that has been we're also adding products, and there's a lot of runway in the I think part of why we disclosed that is that provides some diversification from various M&A markets. Honestly, my guess is over time it continues to outpace the M&A market, but in a very strong M&A market, I'd be super happy if M&A outpaced that business. Some puts and takes, I think we're just trying to make the point that many of those products have become scaled, and frankly, a lot of them line up with the M&A business. You know, many times the debt capital advisory business is tied to an M&A transaction.

Great. Thank you for taking my questions.

We'll go next to Daniel Kukiara with Bank of America.

Hi, good morning. You know, 2026 was just, you know, dominated by the large cap M&A. I was just hoping you could give us a current mark to market on deals under a billion. And if you've seen any momentum in this cohort towards the end of 2025 and, you know, if the momentum is kind of carried over into the first month of 26. Thank you.

Yeah, I would say, I mean, obviously, we get that question. They just look at M&A volume, total volume, and sort of forget that sometimes that's driven by, you know, whatever the top five, six, ten transactions, especially if there is some large ones. So, yeah, we're much more focused on, you know, volume in the middle market. I think in our release we talked about some of the data we had that grew, you know, high single digits, obviously with our advisory business. We outpace that. I do feel like the M&A market in that sort of middle market range, which for a lot of our stuff, north of 50% is sponsor-based. I do feel like we think that accelerated in the back half of the year. But we'll have to watch that mix. That mix is very important to us. I mean, we get our fair share of large transactions, but the vast majority of our volume is in that middle market.

We'll go next to Mike Grondahl with Northland Securities.

Hey, congrats on a very strong finish to the year. And on that note, Chad, could you just talk a little bit about the pipeline or backlog on the advisory side? And, you know, I think you mentioned a couple larger transactions happened near year end. How does that affect your thinking about like first half 26 versus second half 26? Just trying to think through the cadence as we kind of get into 26 here.

Yeah, I mean, that is a, you know, it's funny, I've been doing this a long time. Sometimes we're always lining up the planes for the last couple weeks, and some years we land most of them, and some years we have a handful that slip. I mean, I think we made the comment, we landed a lot in the last week or so. December, so that obviously always has a bit of an impact on January. You know, January is never a huge month for new announcements, so it's sort of always hard to tell. But I would say our backlogs are good. Our seasonality is fairly typical. You know, Q1 is always our toughest quarter to predict. So, you know, we'll have to see that seasonality.

Got it. And then, Deb, on the municipal side and sort of trading side, how are you feeling about the environment and just sort of, you know, approaching priorities for 26?

Yeah, so if I take that broadly across municipalities from our financing standpoint, you know, we continue to see and feel like the market will remain stable. remain solid here, you know, similar trends to what was coming out of 25. I mean, part of that is we need to look at both the supply and demand side of that equation. So, you know, rates definitely matter there. I mean, to the extent we see rates coming down, it could burst more refinancing opportunities, which just haven't been there yet. And we also just continue to watch the fund flows as those continue to be Again, solid, watching that particularly in high yield, that's going to help support the municipal financing business. On the trading side, I would say holistically, this is true for municipals as well as taxable products. Spreads are really tight, and so it's just causing a little bit of a pause for investors as they look to see what might happen there, and a little nervous to step in too strongly because of that. So watching spreads on the fixed income is going to be an important part for you to try to see what's happening with our business. And I guess the other thing I would just say relative to 26 is as we see bank M&A improved here in 25, we saw the repositioning of balance sheets that we're able to do as part of that continue, and that's something we see going into 26 as being likely to continue to be strong along with the bank M&A environment. Great.

Hey, thanks a lot, and good luck in 26.

Thanks, Mike.

At this time, there are no further questions. I'd like to turn the call back to Chad for any additional or closing remarks.

Okay. Thank you, Operator, and thanks, everyone, that joined us this morning. We look forward to updating you on our first quarter results in a few months. Have a great day.

This does conclude today's conference. We thank you for your participation.