Safehold Inc

afternoon ladies and gentlemen please continue to hold your conference will begin in a couple of minutes please continue to hold your conference will begin momentarily thank you Thank you. Good afternoon and welcome to Safehold's second quarter 2023 earnings conference call. If you need assistance during today's call, please press star zero. If you'd like to ask a question, please press star 1. That's star 1 to ask a question. As a reminder, today's conference is being recorded. At this time, for opening remarks and introductions, I would like to turn the conference over to Pierce Hoffman, Senior Vice President of Capital Markets and Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today for Safehold's earnings call. On the call today, we have Jay Sugarman, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Marcos Alvarado, President and Chief Investment Officer, and Brett Asnes, Chief Financial Officer. This afternoon, we plan to walk through a presentation that details our second quarter 2023 results. The presentation can be found on our website at safeholdinc.com by clicking on the Investors link. There will be a replay of this conference call beginning at 8 p.m. Eastern time today. The dial-in for the replay is 877- 481-4010 with a confirmation code of 48759. Before I turn the call over to Jay, I'd like to remind everyone that statements in this earnings call which are not historical facts may be forward-looking. Our actual results may differ materially from these forward-looking statements, and the risk factors that could cause these differences are detailed in our SEC reports. Safehold disclaims any intent or obligation to update these forward-looking statements except as expressly required by law. Now, with that, I'd like to turn it over to Chairman and CEO Jay Sugarman. Jay? Thanks, Pierce.

Thanks to everyone for joining us today. With the merger now behind us, the second quarter was an opportunity to begin focusing on the capital needs of our customers and begin building a deal pipeline in this higher-rate environment. The market remains tougher than normal, with liquidity from banks still constrained, and higher rates and higher cap rates, making transactions more difficult. But we continue to look for ways to help our customers access our modern ground-lease capital across all our product lines. With that short introduction, let's have Marcus and Brett take us through the quarter in more detail. Marcus?

Thank you, Jay, and good afternoon, everyone. Let's begin on slide three. During the second quarter, we started to see a slight uptick in new investments activity and portfolio growth. While overall the real estate capital markets remain dislocated with volumes far off the highs, we're beginning to see pockets where our ground lease is a constructive capital solution in this difficult environment. And we're encouraged by the momentum in our pipeline. We're also pleased to see positive developments broadly in the Fed's fight against inflation. While we'll continue to highlight the inflation capture in our lease structure, the value of our long-term liabilities and carrot, Our stock price has been hit hard over the past 18 months as investors respond to near-term headwinds without regard to our long-term value components of our portfolio. We believe Safehold could be a beneficiary at the end of this historic tightening cycle. And as we start to see stability in rates, we expect our customers will accelerate their delayed capital decisions. The overall portfolio remains steady. with significant amounts of subordinately sold debt and equity capital supporting our principal and income. The tenants on top of our assets continue to perform. And as of today, we're not engaged with our customers about any restructuring of our leases. The key credit metrics that we track are well within our target criteria, with a weighted average GLTV of 42% and rent coverage of 3.7 times. On the capital front, we ended the quarter with more than 800 million of liquidity. And in addition, have greater ability to invest capital through our previously announced $500 million joint venture, which we have started to deploy. As a reminder, we own 55% of the venture with a leading sovereign wealth fund. And in addition to our share of the ground lease economics, we'll earn a management fee with the potential for additional promote upside. Slide 4 provides a snapshot of our portfolio growth for the quarter. During the quarter, we originated three new ground leases totaling $129 million. We funded $73 million during the quarter, with $61 million of that associated with new and existing ground lease commitments, and $12 million related to our 53% share of the leasehold loan fund, which we acquired in the merger. The three new originations were all multifamily properties with three new customers across three unique markets. Of the $129 million, $39 million consisted of two transactions closed into our aforementioned venture, and the third deal for $90 million will be wholly owned by Safehold. These leases generate a 7.2% weighted average inflation-adjusted yield or a 7.1% yield assuming 0% inflation and no carrot value. The wholly owned investment was a pre-existing commitment to purchase a Ground Lease Plus deal on a 32-story, 465-unit luxury apartment building in downtown Brooklyn. Safehold's purchase was contingent upon the sponsor reaching certain milestones, including obtaining leasehold construction financing, which closed in the second quarter and triggered our commitment. It was nice to see that product come full circle despite the financing headwinds. The credit metrics associated with these three deals are in line with our targets with a weighted average GLTV of 31% and ground rate coverage of two and a half times. As rates and spreads have moved up, we have pushed pricing accordingly. We'll continue to examine pricing dynamics that work both for our customers and for our business and are pleased with the recent engagement in our pipeline. At the end of the quarter, our aggregate portfolio stood at approximately $6.3 billion. The estimated value of the unrealized capital appreciation sitting above our ground leases was approximately 10.1 billion, representing 23 times growth over the last six years. In total, the UCA portfolio is comprised of approximately 34 million square feet of institutional quality commercial real estate, consisting of approximately 17,300 units of multifamily, 12.6 million square feet of office, over 5,000 hotel keys, and 2 million square feet of life science and other property types. And with that, let me turn it over to Brett to go through the financials. Brett?

Thank you, Marcos, and good afternoon, everyone. Continuing on slide five, let me detail our quarterly earnings results. For the second quarter, revenue was 85.7 million, and net income was 22.1 million. Earnings per share was 35 cents, both with or without one-time merger costs. Overall, the financials look similar to pre-merger SAIF, with a few differences I will highlight. First, I'll begin with the balance sheet changes, which now includes the $115 million term loan to Star Holdings, accounted for as a loan receivable, and presented net of an approximately $2.3 million central reserve. In the first quarter, we recorded an approximately $150 million goodwill asset, which represents the excess of purchase price over the fair value of the assets received, and will be tested per GAAP rules moving forward. The Ground Lease Plus and leasehold loan fund interests are accounted for as equity method investments and had a balance of approximately $83 million at quarter end. The approximately $100 million trust preferred unsecured debt assumed as part of the closing sits within consolidated net debt. Now moving to the income statement. Revenue for the quarter included approximately $7.2 million in management fees earned from Star Holdings, which is an offset to the way we discussed G&A, though included in other income in the GAAP income statement. As we previously disclosed, the contract is structured to pay Safehold $25 million in fees during year one, which will step down annually over the four-year term. In accordance with GAAP, we accrue income quarterly based on services provided. which for Q2 included setup work post-merger. We anticipate a lower run rate based on our forecast and expect to recognize approximately $18 million over the next three quarters, which would approximate contractual cash we receive per the management agreement. We earned approximately $2.4 million of interest income on the Star Holdings Term Loan, which pays a fixed 8% cash coupon. Additionally, we saw a pickup within earnings from equity method investments related to the fund interests, which are generally higher yielding than our core ground leases and expected to be accretive to net income. Looking at expenses, all management fees and other expenses related to our previous management contract with I-Star have been replaced with a standalone internalized cost structure. G&A, which includes items such as payroll, occupancy costs, and all overhead items, was approximately $11 million for Q2. Stock-based compensation was approximately $8 million for Q2, which includes board grants, bonus accrual, and the four-year employee LTIP plans put in place at merger closing. In accordance with GAAP, the LTIP grants will grade vest, which means we have a more front-loaded expense rather than straight lining over the four-year vesting term. Taken together, we project an annual G&A net of the management fee from Star Holdings will be approximately $50 million on a run rate basis for the next few years. This year, it could end up a touch higher due to accruing for certain items in Q1 associated with the merger and full-year standalone items accrued for over three quarters instead of four since the merger closed on the last day of Q1. Similar to other borrowers, we have felt the effect of elevated short-term borrowing rates on our revolving credit line, which is the primary driver of the year-over-year decline in EPS. Early in the second quarter, we executed $500 million floating to fixed swaps, fixing SOFR to approximately 3%, which will mitigate much of the adverse near-term earnings effects stemming from the substantial Fed rate hikes that have occurred. On slide six, we detail our portfolio's yields. On a GAAP basis, the portfolio generates a cash yield of 3.5% and an annualized yield of 5.2%, presuming a 0% inflationary environment for the length of our ground leases. It's important to point out the disconnect between economic returns and what we recognize for GAAP. The majority of our portfolio consists of typical safehold structured ground leases with contractual compounding cash flows and periodic CPI lookbacks. When we originate a new asset, what we book for earnings aligns with economic returns of the cash flows given its IRR base. For certain lease structures, there is a significant difference between gap treatment and economics. This is an important topic that we want to explain further and be clear about moving forward. Approximately 17% of our assets have variable rent that can exceed today's current rent. For example, any legacy-style ground leases that we acquired with percentage rent, fair market value provisions, or CPI-linked escalators. When we underwrite those investments, we look closely at the lease structure and make a reasonable assumption on the key variable, such as CPI, to project the true economic yield on the asset. GAAP does not allow assumptions on this variable go-forward component, no matter how conservative. And as a result, the 17% of the portfolio we have referenced is earning 3.0% for GAAP purposes, accounting for no expected income increases over the term of the lease. even though our underwriting expectation for these leases is closer to 6%. This disconnect is why the yields on the right side of the page are more pertinent, as they line up much closer with our view of economic reality. Inflation-adjusted yield, which is IRR-based and uses today's Federal Reserve long-term inflation expectation of 2.23%, produces a yield of 5.8%. We are also tracking our illustrative carrot-adjusted yield, which we introduced last quarter and believe is an effective way to demonstrate the impact of the potential value of the embedded capital appreciation in our portfolio. We use the 5.8% inflation adjusted yield as the starting point for this metric and simply subtract Safehold's 82% ownership of Carrot using its latest $2 billion valuation from the current portfolio ground lease basis. This increases the inflation adjusted yield to approximately 7.3%. Turning to slide 7, we show a geographic breakdown of our portfolio. This slide underscores the portfolio's diversification by location and underlying property type. We highlight our top 10 markets on the right, as we believe that our emphasis on originations in the top 30 MSAs is fundamental to our thesis that well-located, institutional quality ground leases should benefit and appreciate in value over time. Approximately 70% of gross book value is diversified across the top 10 markets listed on the slide. The bottom section breaks down portfolio count and book value in further detail and highlights the progress made within the multifamily space, which has been the primary channel for new investments over the last few years and represents more than 50% of the portfolio by count. Lastly, on slide eight, we provide an overview on our capital structure. At the end of the second quarter, we had approximately $4.3 billion of debt comprised of $1.5 billion of unsecured notes, $1.5 billion of non-recourse secured debt, $1 billion drawn on our unsecured revolver, and $272 million of our pro rata share of debt on ground leases, which we own in joint ventures. Our weighted average debt maturity is approximately 23 years, and we have no corporate maturities due until 2026, which is our revolver. At quarter end, we had approximately $816 million of cash and credit facility availability. As previously mentioned, we have taken meaningful steps to offset interest rate fluctuation through hedges that are currently in the money. We have $500 million of swaps in place with SOFR locked at approximately 3% for five years, which is presently in the money based on current market rates. We also have $400 million of 30-year treasury hedges with a weighted average rate of 3.47%, currently in a significant gain position, which will eventually be unwound and apply to long-term financing as we reenter the debt markets. We are levered 1.9 times on a total debt-to-book equity basis. The effective interest rate on permanent debt is 3.8%, which is 135 basis point spread to the 5.2% gap annualized yield on our portfolio, which again includes 17% of the portfolio being booked at 3.0% GAAP annualized yield with no credit given today to the future income that we described earlier. The portfolio's cash interest rate on permanent debt is 3.3%, which is a 15 basis point spread to the 3.5% annualized cash yield. We're on positive outlook at both Moody's and Fitch and have an active dialogue with both agencies. Overall, we believe that our existing capital structure is a valuable component of the company that has been underappreciated by the market. We have a long-term ladder debt profile with 23 years of weighted average term that is significantly below market cost with no near-term maturities. On a mark-to-market basis, similar to what our analysts describe, there's potentially $500 million to $1 billion of value in a sum-of-the-parts analysis. We believe that these attractive attributes, particularly in a time of market uncertainty, should be viewed as an important asset by stakeholders when calculating Safehold's overall intrinsic value. So to conclude, while it has been a very challenging year so far in terms of stock performance, we've been encouraged by macro trends and thawing real estate markets and remain focused on getting back to business, expanding our leadership position in the ground-lease industry. And with that, I'll turn it back to Jay.

Thanks for that detail, Brad. What's striking to me as we enter this next phase of growth is really how early we still are in the development of the modern ground lease industry. There's still a lot of work to do to accelerate adoption among customers and investors, but ground leases have certainly begun to carve out a place in the mainstream real estate markets, and we look forward to helping push that adoption even faster. And operator, with that, why don't we go ahead and open it up for questions?

Absolutely, thank you. To ask a question, please press star one at this time. We will take as many questions as time permits. Once again, please press star one to ask a question. We'll pause a moment to assemble the roster. The first question is from Nate Crossett with BNP Paribas. Please proceed.

Hey, thank you. Good evening. It's nice to see activity picking up a bit. We're just curious if you could speak to, you know, what does the pipeline look like right now? Have you closed anything so far in 3Q? And then just on subsectors, it sounds like it was all multifamily this quarter. You know, what sectors are in the pipeline? Are there any other areas you're looking at? I think, Anne-Marie, you may have mentioned subsidized housing. Just curious to get your comments there.

Hey, Nate. So I think we've been pretty encouraged over the last six weeks or so. There's a handful of transactions that are in the closing process. They're all in the housing space, so a mix of multifamily and student housing. And we did get our first affordable deal under LOI as well. So we're encouraged by the recent momentum. As I look kind of at the next leg of the pipeline, which isn't signed up today, it is predominantly housing as well, so mostly multifamily, and there is one hospitality asset. But there seems to be a thawing in some of these asset classes. Student housing, as an example, is, you know, undersupplied. I think there's some conviction from owners about rent growth that they can underwrite, and our capital solution is accretive as they're, you know... recapitalizing transactions or pursuing new acquisitions. Okay.

That's helpful. And then just the pricing on what's in the pipeline, is it similar to that seven, two that you guys quoted this quarter? How should we think about that?

Yeah, I would say the seven, two we're, we're really excited about that overall yield. Um, uh, I think we did better this quarter than I would say expected. Our, our target pricing today is still sort of in that six and a half range. And I would say the pipeline sort of sits between the six and a half and the, and the seven too.

Okay. Thank you. And then just one on the balance sheet, just on the revolver, you know, how should we be thinking about when you may look to turn that out? Like how long do the current hedges last? I think you said the swaps are good for five years. So just how should we think about that? And then maybe where you could do 30 year money today.

Yeah, Brett, why don't you talk about just in terms of debt, what you're feeling?

Absolutely. As you know, Nate, the line has been drawn over the course of the merger discussions. And since the merger's closed, it's nice to get back out on the road and educate folks. I think what we're encouraged by is meeting with a lot of new investors that's both on the equity and debt side. So as this ground lease market continues to evolve and open up, there are definitely a lot more interested parties. I think when we look at our leverage level and think about our rating and think about capital allocation, we're looking across the board at all of those opportunities on the equity side and debt side, and we'll continue to try to figure out what the best cost of capital in that moment is, as well as what can help us kind of get to that next lily pad That's, I would say, the goal from our end. And then the last piece is on the hedging, which I think is an important one that, you know, we're trying to make clear. We put in our deck this quarter as well, which is, you know, half of the line is already fixed. And then the other half, we have 30-year hedges that are today, you know, 60 basis points plus in the money. So that is a significant gain that will – that gain will be amortized over the life of any debt instrument that we do, respective of if it's a 10-year deal, a 30-year deal, if it's different structures as we've talked about in the past. So we're continuing to try to be thoughtful about how to allocate capital and term out those borrowings. Okay, thank you. That's it.

The next question is from Handel St. Just with Mazuho. Please proceed.

Hey, good evening. First question is on, I guess, the investments in the quarter. Can you guys, I guess, discuss the process of how the new investments are allocated on a wholly owned versus via your recent JV? It looks like most of the activity was on balance sheet instead of JV. I think we were under the impression that the first $500 million or so would likely be through the JV, given your higher cost of capital here. So maybe some elaboration on that, please.

There was a pre-existing commitment through our GL plus fund. And so that predated the execution of the venture. And so, and that was a relatively large transaction for the quarter was 90 million. And so that's why it was not closed in the venture. The way we look at the venture going forward is it will most likely close all the transactions until we fill that $500 million bucket. You know, I would say if I'm forecasting, there may be some smaller transactions where friction costs for setting up, you know, individual REITs within the fund may fall out. But the way you should think about it is going forward now, the next $500 million will go in the venture.

Thanks for that. And remind us, just regarding the JV, Does your partner have veto rights? I guess I'm curious if they're only interested in multifamily here and if there's any asset classes that they've redlined.

Yeah, so it's a collaborative process. They do have, you know, discretion over the capital. We both do, obviously. So it's a collaborative process as we start to build our pipeline. I think most of the product we're seeing is in the residential space. We have shown them a few deals that ultimately didn't get to the finish line that were in other asset classes, and as I mentioned, there's something in the hospitality space that they're supportive of as well. So we're not just going to do residential. We'll do what the market sort of gives us, and that happens to be a fair amount of resi, which we're excited about.

Okay, the next question is from Anthony Pallone with J.P. Morgan. Please proceed.

Yeah, thanks. First, just a couple of clarifying ones. I just want to make sure I understand. In terms of Safehold's cash out the door in 2Q, is that the $73 million, or does that include also some JV partner money?

The exact number? $73 is us. $73 is us. And that includes 12 million from the leasehold loan fund. So 61 in ground leases for our share and 12 million in the leasehold loan fund. Okay.

And then in the 129, the new sort of commitments, I guess some of that was funded and is in the 73 already. But in that 129, your share of that is the 112. I'm just trying to reconcile what you committed, what you spent at your share.

You got it.

112 is the number. Okay. Okay, got it. And what's kind of unspent but committed right now at Safehold's share, just to kind of understand, like, what could go out, you know, the rest of the year or just, you know, some baseline?

So on a gross basis, it is approximately $460 million, so we'd be 55% of that number. 55% of the $460, okay. We'll go back to that.

You talked about the pipeline picking up. What do you think the next few quarters could hold in terms of pace? Do you think the 129 gross is doable from what you could tell, or are things still spotty?

You know, I would say things are spotty, right? These markets are extremely volatile. If you give me a snapshot today, yes, I do think the 129 is doable. But as we've seen over the past year, you can wake up the next morning and things dramatically change. So I don't want to put a number out there from a quarter-to-quarter basis, but we're very encouraged by the recent momentum.

Okay. And then just one last one on the financials. The $6.8 million in JV income in the quarter, I mean, you talked about, like, why that's higher, but is that, like, a good run rate, or is it just a big move up given everything that's happened? I just want to try to understand if there's anything in there.

Yeah, that's probably a good run rate, Tony. If you recall, right, at merger closing, we acquired those GLX assets So, there's our existing unconsolidated JV assets that we've done in the past, but now the funds go through this line item as well. So, it feels like that's probably a decent run rate. There were some initial costs in there, so maybe a touch higher going forward, but that's probably a good run rate.

Okay. So, yeah, thank you.

The next question is from Harsh Hemnani with Green Street. Please proceed.

Thank you. So of course the 7-1 is a great lead and it's nice to see their transaction market open back up. I think you mentioned you saw a couple hospitality deals in there. So in that range that you sort of provided six and a half to call it 7-1, 7-2, would it be fair to say that hospitality shakes out on the higher end of that range? Any guidance that you could give us there? And then have you seen any office type deals on the market? And if you were pricing some of those, where would you be comfortable acquiring an office ground lease today?

Hey, Harsh. So, yes, on the hotel deals in our pipeline, they are at the wider end of the range, so closer to 7%. And we've seen a fair amount of office given the capital constraints. And to date, nothing has sort of fit our box. You know, I would say it's not an issue with just our proceeds level. I think a lot of those assets that we've seen have a fair amount of existing leverage. And us as a ground lease solution in isolation doesn't solve their problem. And so we're continuing to monitor. We'd like to own some of the office assets that we see in our pipeline, but we're being very selective.

Okay. That's helpful. And then, you know, spending two minutes on CADRID, I guess. There have been two private rounds done. It seems like the first round investors wanted to exercise that option to reinvest in the second round. Have you gotten any more inbounds from these investors as to interest in Carrot? Do you think there'll be more sort of private rounds in the near term? Any conversations around that would be helpful.

Yeah, no, I think we've been more focused on the pipeline at this point, Harsh, but I would say we've had reverse inquiry on carrot, which has been right along the lines we had hoped, which is the kind of long-term wealth-creating investment seekers. So that continues to be something we will push once we've rebuilt the pipeline and can show that kind of growth again But I think the concept of CARED is getting more and more familiar, which is what we hope coming out of the merger.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, up next we have Keebin Kim with Truist. Please proceed, Kee.

Thank you. Quick question on the originations this quarter, the 7.2% yield, inflation adjusted. Is 7.1 the gap yield that you're booking the deals at?

Yes, that's correct.

Okay. I would have thought there would have been a bigger gap between the two numbers.

Yeah, there's a little bit of rounding in that 7.1 and that 7.2, and the long-term Fed assumption from quarter to quarter went down a little bit, so it's at 2.23%, so there's not that much lift-up in the inflation-adjusted yield.

Okay, and can you remind us where your fixed-charge coverage ratio is today per your covenant calculations and the unsecured asset versus unsecured debt? where that is today versus the covenants?

Sure. From an unencumbered asset to unsecured debt coverage standpoint, we're a touch under one and a half times. So obviously, as you know, as the numerator and denominator grow and we look to equitize as well as raise debt in the future, that cushion will grow. And then from a SCCR standpoint, We're in the mid-1-2s, and that's from an EBITDA cushion standpoint. It's about $15 million of EBITDA cushion, which again is, you know, it's declined here over the past quarters, but as we equitize and look to the long-term debt markets, that will go back up as well. That will usually sit in a run rate of call it 1.3 to 1.4 times. And it's super, super stable. And as you know, we also hedge some of our revolving line borrowings this past quarter. So I'd say on a FCCR, 1.3 to 1.4 would be our, you know, run rate of where we typically are. And from a UAUD perspective, I'd call it 1.5 to 1.6, staying within both of those corridors.

Okay. So given... Given where those covenants are today, not the covenants, I mean where you are in terms of FCCR and the 1.9 times debt to equity, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of cushion left on the equity side to do more deals. And also, I'm not sure exactly how much cash flow you're retaining each quarter. So just high level, how are you thinking about equity needs over the next year or so? And I know your stock price isn't exactly where it needs to be or where you want it to be, but I guess what are the avenues that how you would address equity?

I guess the things we've said in the past are typically tied to our pipeline and what we see in the future. We always want to have sufficient liquidity and buying power to be able to be aggressive in the markets when we want to be. You've seen us lean in on third-party capital when it makes sense. That's certainly been part of the equation for us. And we'll look at the mix between primary and third-party capital and make sure we're out ahead of the game. So that's how we've been thinking about it over the last 12 months. And certainly the market's finally beginning to break a little bit. So we've got a very large partner who – has been very helpful on the third-party capital side.

And on your line of credit, you have about $802 million of capacity. But I'm curious, can you actually, from a practical standpoint, use all that? Or would that actually press you up against the governance?

Yeah, we've got headroom still. You know, we're being cognizant. Markets are finally, at least on the deal side, you know, starting to present us with the kind of opportunities we think are creative and, you know, we'll start looking at different choices here and get the mix right. But as Brett said, you know, we've got a debt plan, we've got an equity plan over the next 12 months that will keep us, you know, out ahead of the capital needs we see.

Okay, thank you.

The next question is from Matthew Hallett with B. Reilly. Please proceed, Matthew.

Yeah, thanks, Seth. Thanks for taking my question. Just on the UCA went up, obviously, by the amount of your originations, was there any movement in between, you know, in the appraisals you do on the properties, any significant changes in the quarter?

Yeah, look, we're in that part of the cycle where appraisers are starting to catch up to some of the cap rate expansion. Some of the fundamentals, obviously, in office in particular are starting to bleed. So, We've seen a degradation in the appraisals on a number of the assets, but that is meant to be a long-term indication of value, so over time we expect that stuff to stabilize out, but right now we're certainly in the downward slope. Some of the multifamily has actually done better than expected. um it's not all a one-way story but i think the biggest piece of the puzzle is obviously turning back on the origination machine and starting to add in that external growth to offset whatever weakness there is on just sort of the fundamental appraisal uh cap rate catch-up that we're seeing yeah the gltv was was stable at 42 and you were clear that there was there's no

property that you're in discussion with in terms of any restructuring I mean we see headlines obviously every day on the office market in major cities what you're saying is your portfolio you're not seeing anything that would suggest that uh there could be something on the horizon yeah today um you know that that's an accurate statement um you know certainly offices is obviously under pressure and we're engaged with our with our tenants where there is um

you know, rollover or potentially some future cash flow issues. And, you know, today there is no conversation going on.

Gotcha. Okay. And then, Jay, you talked about it, you know, with the bank, the new bank lending environment, they're obviously pulling back from commercial market. Talk about the interplay between your groundless solution and the banks. If they do, they are pulling back. Are we talking about they're going to come in on LTVs or not do certain product types and you're going to be the solution for the real estate owners to do. I mean, you could offer a product. It could be the solution for them to, to get the acquired leverage. And you can just talk a little bit about the interplay, which is the banks pulling back on your ground and your modern ground lease.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little bit of good news, bad news in terms of, you know, banks have been one of the sources of capital, uh, for the leasehold side of our business. Um, We typically pair up with a third-party capital source. Sometimes it's banks. Sometimes it's CMBS. Sometimes it's a money center bank, regional bank. We've probably worked with, what, 50, 60 leasehold lenders at this point. So there are still pockets of capital. Certainly the agencies in the multifamily space are still there. But it definitely constrains our ability to help our customers put their capital stack together when the leasehold lending market is pulling back. So that's not great news. The positive side of that is capital is more valuable than ever. Long-term, low-cost capital from a ground lease helps stabilize capital structures and make them more resilient. So we definitely think We are part of the solution to a more volatile marketplace, but we do need a functioning financing market to be at our best. So a pullback is fine. A complete red line of commercial real estate would not be good.

Gotcha. Thanks for taking my questions, Jeff.

Mr. Hoffman, we have no further questions in queue.

Thanks. If you should have additional questions on today's release, please feel free to contact me directly. John, would you mind giving me conference call replay instructions once more?

Absolutely. There will be a replay of this conference call beginning at 8 p.m. Eastern Time today. The dial-in for the replay is 877-481-4010 with the confirmation code of 48759. This concludes today's conference, and you may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.