UWM Holdings Corporation Class A

man all right thanks everyone for joining today appreciate you guys um obviously a little different format this uh quarter hopefully you guys like it we'll love to get feedback on it um this is my style more and hopefully for you guys i'd love to be able to see you guys too i don't think we set it up that way this time maybe next time but um appreciate everyone being here today got a bunch of questions um so i'm gonna go through and go through them i know last quarter we didn't do q a and i know people missed that so i'm I'm happy and hopefully this is valuable to you guys in any way possible about the industry, about UWM. I got a whole variety of types of questions. I'm going to try not to duplicate and try to put some of them together, but I'll go through and maybe read off a person's name, read the question and go through it. If anyone has any follow up questions, I know I can't take them live this way, but obviously our investor relations team, Blake and everybody else will be able to handle your questions and help you with anything you need. Let's get started and we'll jump into it right now. First question, I got Doug Harder from BTIG. What is the status of bringing servicing in-house? What is the latest timeline transitioning all servicing to our own platform? So, first, status of bringing servicing in-house. Is the video on? It's working? Okay. Sorry if you can't see my... I look good today. Hopefully, everyone will see the video. My IT people will fix this. So, anyways, I'll answer the question without the video for this first one. But, anyways, standards of bringing servicing in-house... It's going fantastic. So we feel really great about where servicing is right now and how it's going. We have, you know, we have less than 100,000 loans on, but all new originations are going on. And then we've moved a bunch of loans over from Stenlar already. So we feel really good about that. The process will be this year. Over the whole year, we'll bring all of our loans in-house from so there'll be no sub-servicers by the end of this year and UW will handle it all. Now, it's going really great. Our technology process is going great. We partnered with Black Knight and then we partnered with Built and we've also built a bunch of stuff ourselves so we feel really good about where that's all going and how it's been going and our client service has been excellent. All the metrics that people look at are fantastic so we feel really good about that across the board. Servicing the house is great. The transition timeline, that's this year. Hopefully that answers your question, Doug. I know there's some other servicing questions. I'm sure I'll get to them as we go through it. All right. The next one. Ryan Nash, Goldman Sachs. What are your thoughts on future gain on sale margins? What does competitive landscape look like in a heightened rate environment? So obviously rates went up in March, and they've gone up even more in April. And now you guys can see me standing. I told you I had a good blue suit on today. But the margin went up, excuse me, rates went up in March from February. I think the tenure finished at 395. And so seeing rates go up, how does that impact competitive landscape and gain on sale margin? So what you'll see is you know, we're in a really great position from a perspective of margin and competitive position. I feel like the competitive landscape is very competitive right now. And heightened rate environment means obviously purchases more than refines. However, you look at our first quarter, we did a heck of a job on the refinance side. And so I guess my answer to you on this, Ryan, will be that You know, gain on sale margins, I kind of see this range that they're in right now being the right range. And I think that it's going to continue to be in these levels right now and not significantly higher, not significantly lower. And I actually think there's upside in the margins. based on, you know, our margins were pretty strong in the first quarter. I expect it to be in those ranges again in the second quarter. But also if rates come down, you could see margins increase. And so the competitive landscape, it is very competitive out there right now. We obviously had a great first quarter. You guys saw the numbers and see what we did. And first quarter is usually the slowest quarter. Now, obviously, rates going up. It changes the war going on. There's a lot of uncertainty, which creates issues, obviously, in the rate environment. But we feel really good about where it's at right now. Ryan Nash also asked, thoughts on the Knicks winning at all? So, obviously, you must be a New York Knicks fan. They have a very, very good team. We obviously just lost to Oklahoma City, who's an amazing team, too. So, it'll be interesting. The East is open. The Knicks have a real good chance. I'm not really cheering for anybody. I'm just watching and learning. But good luck to your Knicks. Let's go. Next question. Mark DeVries from Deutsche Bank says, What's the strategic value you see in Two Harbors? And what updates can you share of us regarding its progress or impact? And so, yeah, the Two Harbors thing is out there right now. It's interesting, you know, when we originally went to acquire the company, They have something that's really great. They have a pristine servicing book, a great servicing book. When we bought the company or originally agreed on the deal before all the work was done, we thought there'd be a lot of synergies also. They had capital markets expertise, maybe some finance expertise. Their servicing platform maybe you could learn from. As we went through the due diligence process, we learned that there was a really great servicing book. And we still like that servicing book. We originally put an offer out there. So where that stands now is like, we don't see as much value in their management. I think their team members there, we met some of their people are very good, but their leadership team, we were not as impressed with. And so what's happened since then is they went out and tried to get another bid. And they did, whether it was appropriate or not, we can discuss that at a later point. But what's happened is, if they were just engaged with us, we always plan on paying $12. And quite honestly, based on what the stock price went down, I'd rather pay it in cash than in stock because I feel like I'm giving my stock away at a really low price. And so they never engaged. They just went out to another offer. We made another offer. They just basically ignored it. Now we've made another one and said, okay, we'll go to $12 what we originally paid on playing, which I think is maybe $11.95, but you can do the math based on when the stock was at $5.11 or $5.15 the day we cut the deal, I think. And so we still feel really good about that deal. I feel like it's very clear that their management team and their board is which has had its own issues in the past with their lawsuits and stuff, is maybe playing some games, doing things, because they realize that we don't see any value for them specifically. And so it's interesting, you know, they have really great shareholders, which we are excited to bring on to UWM, but their board and their management team doesn't have any value to us. So now they're trying to do anything they can to potentially go with someone else so that they have jobs and sustainability. I think it'll play out. We'll see how it shapes out for us. That's the strategic value is their MSR book. Their shareholders have some value because we think that we've got a chance to know a little during that process and feel like they got some really good shareholders and we love them to be UWMC shareholders. Whether they take cash or stock, it does not matter to me. We feel really good about that. And for the shareholders of Two Harbors, they obviously would prefer taking $12 in cash. or UWM share than taking $11.30 in cash. So that's obviously gonna play out that way. It's really surprising to see how it is, but we'll see how it goes. And I feel good about that. And we feel good about the strategic value, but it's very clear to us that if MSR book is the shareholders and we don't have any value for their leadership team, which is obviously not what they like to hear. All right. Michele Goberman, sorry if I don't pronounce her name perfectly, from Citizens Bank. How do you foresee the balance between origination income and service income evolving, especially given the post-war reversal rates seen since the end of February? So, you know, listen, we're in origination. We're the biggest and best originator in the country. We feel great about where we are in origination. You saw an amazing first quarter. We've been the number one originator for four straight years and we're continuing to be the number one wholesale lender for 11 straight years. So, origination is our game. Now, as I bring in Servicing House, we're going to have more servicing and we're going to continue to retain the servicing. Now, are we still opportunistic? If someone gives me a bid that we believe is more than what the intrinsic value is, I'll sell the servicing. I have those options. And now with the lower cost of servicing by bringing in-house and the better level of service, which will help retention, we feel like we got the best of all of it. So how do I see it all balancing? We'll see with the income levels, origination versus servicing. But origination is still our game. We're going to continue to build out the servicing book. But I'm always opportunistic and people call us all the time because, you know, even when I just talked about Two Harbors, some of the servicing book that they have, I call it a pristine servicing book, you know, a lot of that happens to be our old servicing book that we sold them. And so, we feel good about the paper we originate every day in servicing loans, but if someone wants to come offer us a great opportunity to Christ, we will always look at that. Thank you for the question. Jason Stewart. Let's see, Jason Stewart for Compass Point. Let me read through. There's an increased number of high- Was there an increased number of high-producing brokers affiliated with UWM during the quarter supporting wholesale channel growth? And so, good question, Jason. You know, high-producing broker shops affiliated with UWM, I always say the numbers, and it's roughly this, but there's 12,000, 12,000, 500 brokers that work with UWM and maybe there's four or 500 that are not all in with UWM. So there's not that many high producing shops to bring over to UWM. They're affiliated with UWM. Almost everyone in the market works with UWM and that's why we have almost 50% market share. I think it's 44.7 or 44.8 market share. for the year last year of the broker channel. So our big focus is grow the channel. Help brokers do more. Help more engineers realize that broker is the place to go where they join a broker shop or start their own and that's been a really big focus. As the broker channel grows, UWM will grow. Even if our market share would happen to go down. And so I feel great about growing the broker channel. And then are brokers coming over to join UWM? Yes, they are. Every single day people see the value of what UWM does. And I got some actually examples that maybe will come up that I can share because I've been talking about some things recently, you know, with some new ideas that have happened. Now, separately from that, You know, the whole all-in thing with brokers from years ago, you know, one of the biggest adversaries of UWM was a guy named Mike Fawaz at Rocket. He was saying a bunch of things negative about UWM and about what we do and how UWM wasn't best for brokers. You know, recently that man left his company at Rocket and started a broker shop and called me. And now he's working with UWM. And so the biggest... anti-UWM. I think he called it the bully shield. He came up with some stuff, which I've got to know him now. And I like the guy. I always respected the guy because he was in the weeds of the business. But he started a broker shop and chose to work with UWM and not to work with Rocket. I think that sends enough message. Someone that knows every detail that Rocket's doing and says, I came and learned about UWM and joined a broker or started a broker shop and picked to work with UWM, I think sends the message that there'll be more and more big broker shops moving over to UWM. There aren't that many left out there that don't work with us, but that's an opportunity. But the bigger thing is grow the broker channel and continue to grow. And so that's been very positive and the broker channels continue to be very positive and we're excited about the growth of the channel. All right, I got, let me, I got a couple. I'm going to bundle these, so I apologize. I'm not going to name everyone's name. I got a couple questions on NIA and the AI initiative, so let me just hit on that and kind of combine these questions. Let me see if I'm kind of combining a couple people here and make sure I get it all here together. Okay, let me... I'll kind of read a couple of these and I'll talk generally about Mia, but one person asked about Mia's text messaging capabilities and how's it been going. Customer's response to Mia generally, lead time, competitive... Discussed me over Pat. So let me give you a Mia update Mia has been fantastic. It's been almost a year I rolled it out at UW live last year and it's been amazing I think the data and I'll get the exact numbers on call roughly I would say about a hundred thousand closing but I think it's closer like eighty eighty five thousand but let's call it, you know in that range of closings over the last year have come to from Mia. It's been fantastic. And so the Mia numbers, and I get the exact numbers, but it's been, the last report I saw was so strong with the Mia initiation of refinance opportunity. And so if you look at our services book, people always ask me, hey, you have 2 or 3% of the servicing book, but you guys did 12 or 13% of all refinances. Well, Mia is a big part of that. Brokers do such a great job with the consumer up front. Consumers want to come back to the broker. The problem was brokers it's such a average to below average job, I won't say poor job, of following up with their past clients that they would just be one and done. They do the purchase and then they wouldn't talk to them again. Well, now with Mia, she's keeping the broker in front of the consumer. And so when the consumer goes to refinance, they work with the broker because the broker's offered a better deal anyways. They just know who to call. And so Mia has been fantastic. Now when she leaves voicemails, she does send a text message out. So that was an initiation that was different. It was just voicemails. So she calls, and right now we're seeing the data. I think I gave this data before. Nia, about 40% of her calls get picked up, which was a bigger number than we expected. So 60% leave a voicemail, and now we send a text message also. And a lot of those call the broker back. Like, hey, was that AI or was that real? Was that spam? And they're like, yeah, it was real. I can take you some money. Let's talk. And they do a loan. And then on 40% or 16,000 of a 40,000 call day, let's just use that as a day, talk to Mia and have long conversations. I just played one today for the sales. They have two, three, four minute conversations. Some of them know it's AI and some of them don't know it's AI. It's gotten that good. And so then we send a follow-up email to the broker. Hey, you have a call scheduled at 3 p.m. with Jenny, the borrower. And it's really been successful. And so we've got more things coming out with Mia. I'm going to continue to enhance it and give it the scale that we're doing it with RIIT. IT team has been phenomenal. There's no one in the country, I don't think there's anyone that I know of in any industry is doing it at this scale that we're doing with Mia. So it's been great. We feel really good about it. And it's going to get better, you know, next week at UWM Live and beyond. I got some big enhancements to continue to make it better and better and better. And it will help brokers win. And so I think it's a big part of that 2-3% of the services book, 12-13% of refis. What's that delta? Mia, brokers are doing a great job. Now we're doing a better job staying in front of them. And so it's been very, very successful. So, hopefully that, I apologize if I didn't answer anyone's specific Nia question, but that kind of combines a couple here. All right. Let's see, Kyle Joseph. Could you review industry competitive trends, current broker share, how you see evolving in the current market? So, I kind of answered that one, so I apologize, but let me kind of give it a little bit more and then we'll keep moving. Current broker share, I think it's about 28%. The mortgage broker market is, you know, brokers do about 28% of the market. And so, you know, just five years ago, I think in 2019 or 20, it was like 14 to 15%. So it's almost doubled. And so it's growing. Will it double again? Well, we're working on it. We're hoping so. But it's obviously going from 14 to 28 harder or easier than going from 28 to 56. But, you know, our goal is to help brokers be the number one overall channel. So 50.1% is where we're going to go with the broker channel and we're on a path to doing that. So with that being said, then our share has been very steady. It's been over 40% for years now. I think 44.7 or eight, whatever I told you guys earlier is roughly what it will call between 40 and 45 consistently for years now. Never been done in the wholesale channel before. Not even close, no one's ever got close to those market share numbers. And it's because we provide value, so you understand. It's not because I'm the best looking guy and people love me. It's because we provide value. We help brokers grow. We help them look good to their real estate agents. We help them do more business. We help them make the process easier. And we help them be successful. And so we train them. We coach them. We give them cool tools to help them win more loans. And so that's why we're the best and why we're the biggest. And we're going to continue to be the best and the biggest in wholesale and overall. But the key is helping brokers win. And so as brokers win, UWM wins. And so the nice part is being the largest lender in the country for four straight years I only have a chance at 28 out of 100 loans. And so think about that. We're the biggest and we only have a chance at 20 out of 100 loans. Every other winner, the number two, the number three, number four, all those guys, they have access to 100 out of 100 loans. They're competing for them. So I'm not even having a chance at those 72. So is that 72 out of 100, the retail channel, goes to 65 or 60 or 50? Well, that's just growth for UWM. That's why we're so bullish on the... UWM's growth, but also on the broker growth, we're going to all win together. And so I think that answers your question, Kyle. You have another one that I usually, I'll come back to, but I guess I kind of answered that. What is UWM's current share? So I kind of covered that one. Thank you for the question. All right. I got a couple questions here. Ryan, I got a couple ones here tied to Yeah, I'm going to kind of knock these out together. Expenses. So, you know, I got a couple questions on, you know, our expenses. You guys saw our expenses went down. And the way I look at expenses in general is we've invested a lot. I've been talking about it for years. And now I'm starting to see, you know, the harvesting or the success of those investments, right? And whether you want to talk about track plus or the investment in free credit reports to help brokers grow. I go through a lot of these details. And so what we're going to start seeing out is like more of a little leveling out of expenses, as you saw, they went down. I think our investments are going to start paying off now, and you're starting to see it already. I think you saw a little in the first quarter. We didn't have a great quarter by where I want us to be, but compared to the industry, we had a great quarter. I think we're up, I think last year, first quarter was 32 billion, which is a great quarter. This year, we did about 45. That's significant. Our gain on sale was up, and volume is up year over year. Seeing that, and then our expenses are flat or down. So, we feel good about where we're at from an expenses perspective. Like I said, I think of them as investments and I think they're paying off in a really, really positive way. So, I feel great about that. I think, I mean, I'm trying to see, you know, hopefully I covered that comment and question enough with that. So, I think that covers it. Let's see. I got Michele, you got another question here. Let me hit this one because on what are your thoughts of the new Vantage Score rating system for borrower credit? So, sorry, Michele Goberman, I'm just using your question again. Another question you have on Vantage Score. So let me give you thoughts on this because it's actually interesting. I've got a lot of talk. So kudos to the leadership of FHFA about rolling out a new way. FICO scores and credit reports have gotten really expensive and if you have a competitor in there now you have options and so options usually create better outcomes and that's why wholesale works because brokers have options and they figure out what's best and people like us now what's happened is FICO and Vantage are both now on the hop of their game to be the best they can be and now with that being said There's very few companies that were put on the pilot. We were one of them. I think I rolled out less than two weeks ago from FHFA Director Bill Pulte and the support of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. You know, four business days later, Wednesday of last week, we rolled it out, VantageScore. And so it's been an enormous, enormous success. And not for the reasons you might think. Not for, hey, you're saving $50 of credit for it. That's possible, too. But what we're doing is we've got both FICO and Vantage score. And we're making sure the borrowers get the best opportunity because they have different models. So Vantage looks at it a little differently, a little bit thinner credit, they understand they can add rent and other things in there. So more people can qualify or maybe they qualify with, you know, have a little bit higher score. Now Vantage gets to take a 20 point haircut. If the Vantage score is 744, that's equivalent of 724 in FICO. But if the FICO score was 719, well, I just got that borrower a better deal, lower LLPAs or a little better opportunity. And so that's a win for the consumers. And so this has been a massive thing in five business days. And so... The amount of emails I've gotten on loans that we've helped brokers win on consumers that have been so grateful and thankful that they can qualify for a home or they got a better interest rate and lower fees has been phenomenal. And so kudos to FHFA, kudos to Fannie and Freddie getting out. We rolled it out with VA today, loans as well, and FHA will be soon. And I think the MI companies, the leaders of MI companies like Essent and ACT, they're on it and others, they're coming and like, how do we do this? How do we make things better for consumers? And so Vantage, Store, And FICO, by the way, FICO is still great in so many ways. It's not one or the other, it's both are great. And now can we help consumers in a better way, qualify for a mortgage? Can we have better credit profiles? I've been extremely, extremely happy with this and the rollout. And just to give you guys recognition of what we do, you know, our IT team, like to roll this thing out in four business days and have it work and flawlessly, you know, it's obviously a different team than put together the Zoom earlier that wasn't getting my video on earlier. Just kidding for my guys behind the film. But you get my point of like, they did a heck of a job. They did a heck of a job of getting this thing done and it's out and live and we're seeing so much success of it on VantageScore. So, Congratulations to my IT team, to brokers that are understanding it, and to Fannie and Freddie who said, let's go, let's do this, and FHA, of course, FHFA for leading. So, hopefully that answers your question, but, you know, other people don't have it. I think nobody in the country has it, by the way, besides UWM right now, because they can't implement it as quick as us. Maybe they'll have it out in May or June. Like, we're rolling with it. We're saving loans, helping loans, giving better deals right now because of Vantage. All right. Let's see. Got a couple questions here on, let's put this, we'll do a built partnership question. There's a couple, let me try to read a couple of them off and I'll try to answer, but I'll talk about built, but, you know, indication of built card relationship, increased lead, like your status partnership with built, update, infrastructure is in place. So here's how I'll say about built. Built, Encore James, CEO of built, phenomenal CEO, doing great things. They're, they're, Vision is ridiculously great, so it's fantastic. UWM is servicing. So UWM is a servicer. We brought servicing in-house. We are controlling everything. What we did is we chose a platform on the front end that was able to provide rewards points to consumers, which has never been done. They don't have to use a credit card. They can use ACH to get a point. It's never been done in our industry. And so rewards points for making your mortgage on time. And you know what? I mean, you guys are all consumers, too. Everyone loves points. can use points and then it hooks their credit card in there once again and they get points if they get their american express point they also get points through built and you can do this and earn points and use it for flights and other things that you want to use it for it's really really cool now beyond that the servicing platform is really slick like we built this with them obviously because they've never done this before on the front end for mortgage and so it's really cool for consumers it's a great platform up front and the built part of it and then on top of that building has over six million consumers And depending on the year, 8, 10% of them go buy houses. Those are now curated leads. They're going to want to stay on the built platform and they're going to work with a mortgage broker. That's a huge opportunity. We've already had that in pilot. So there's some really cool things. There's a concierge service that's really cool that gives our clients, our consumers, which are our broker's consumers, our broker's partners, amazing platform to get things done and make their life easier it's really a cool neighborhood experience so it's hard to explain to people they don't understand it I'm actually encore is going to speak at UWM live actually so I know a lot of you guys are gonna be at you got me last hope you'll see him speaking you'll understand it a little better but the vision is gonna be awesome but the key is UWM has servicing house we've been the best originally in the country for a long time now we're gonna be the best servicer because we're focused on it it's gonna help retention for our brokers it's gonna make the consumer experience better and There's all these other ancillary benefits too. And so it's been a great, great partnership. It's off. It's launched. It's rolling. It's fully active. And, of course, getting better every day like we do with everything at UWM. But because we don't have all 600,000, 700,000 clients, consumers on it, we only have the ones that are on it right now, and they're all moving on to it. And so I've shadowed the team. I've spent time with our team, our service team. The servicing process has been really great. I know you guys have asked me in the past, why don't you do it? And I've always said, you know, Focus on originations, which I'm still doing. But the cost expense will be great on the servicing, not outsourcing anymore. But better than that, the retention and experience for the consumers and our brokers is going to be even better. And that's really what we're focused on. And so we're excited about that. Hopefully that answers the built thing. Let me just see. I got all these pages. Make sure if anyone else had a built question that could maybe tie into it. All right. Well, here, I've got a couple. Let's see. So I've got a couple. This is an interesting one. This might take a little bit of time, but it kind of covers, I'm trying to hit all of them together. What do you see in the business for the next three to five years? I got someone that says, what's a 10 year horizon? Someone says it's a five year. I got someone asking about how do I think expenses or volume will go over the next three years? So I'm gonna kind of combine these and kind of give you my view on our business. Cause we just spend a lot of time on it. Like what does the next three to five years look like? And I look out, I have three year goals, but then we also have five year goals and targets. So that's I think 2031. So if we were to say the next five years, here's like high level or high end thought process on it. is, you know, I think UWM over the, you know, five years from, whatever you want to call it, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, those five years, we're expecting to do over $1.3 trillion in mortgages. I believe we're going to do $1.3 trillion or more in that five-year window. So that's a big number, you know, overall. Now, there might be one year in there with $400 billion. There might be one year in there with $150 to $200 billion, right? But I believe that $1.3 trillion is that kind of that North Star over the next five years. while, and it's important to understand, while my expenses are basically staying the same. With our AI initiatives and our technology, the expenses you see today, I'll call it roughly $600 million in a quarter, I think it was $590 or whatever, but you get my point. I expect when I do one point, each of these years, that's kind of what we'll see from expense. So think about volume doubling, more than doubling, and expenses the same. Now, with that being said, there's another, which really is probably not accounted for by many of you, outside of the volume and gain on sale margins basically being in those ranges that you see and expenses being flat, on top of that, I see another 20%. almost 25% in other revenue coming into UWM that's starting to happen with some of these ancillary products that we have. And they're starting to really pick up steam. So seeing revenue growth outside of just, and it's tied to originations, of course, but outside of just volume and gain on sale or however you want to think about it, there's some of it that's in the gain on sale and some of it that's maybe not, and some opportunity. So that's kind of like, if I were to say, I know that's high level, I didn't get the nitty gritty of some of these questions. Let me just read and make sure, like, And some of those other revenue sources, some of them, you know, could there be opportunities on TrackPlus that's really taken off? Could there be other opportunities to grow and help consumers while helping brokers and UWM winning? So I see $1.3 trillion, I guess I'll summarize it, $1.3 trillion over five years. I see gain on sale margins basically being in these ranges, maybe slightly higher, we'll call it, expenses flat or down, and it might be down, but I'll call it flat to be clear. And at the same time, other revenue tied to some AI initiatives that we have that are actually starting to produce margin and gain on sale while others are producing things that are other revenues could be pretty cool. So that's kind of where I look at that. Hopefully that helps answer, I think that answered a handful of questions here. Let me look. Yeah, so hopefully that covers it. Obviously, if I didn't answer it exactly, some, you know, some shorter term or more detail, like I said, Blake Colo, Investor Relations Team, we'll happy to jump on a call anytime. Matt Rolla, any of those people you can talk to. All right, let's see. Let's see, I got Kyle Joseph. Another question, home buyer. How are you thinking of the Home Buyer Privacy Protection Act and its potential impact on the industry competitive industry, competitive environments, and overall margin. All right, so Kyle, let me answer that question. You're talking about the trigger lead rule. The trigger lead rule, you know, I think it's about March 4th, I think is the date. And so it's definitely changed. You know, if a consumer used to pull credit, man, 50 people would call. Now it's, servicer, the original lender, original broker, you know, maybe their bank, it's like three, four. And so what it's actually done is change the competitive landscape, probably better experience for consumers to not getting 50 calls. So that's one thing I think that was the goal of Congress and people that push this. You know, on flip side, you know, the consumers maybe don't get as many options, you know, because, you know, you get offered one thing you don't know any better than you get offered six and a half percent or with $5,000 of fees. and you don't know any better and no one else is offering things, you might pay that when you could have gotten six and a quarter with $3,000 of fees by working with a mortgage broker, going to MortgageMatchUp.com or going somewhere like that. And so the trigger leads would get more people and make people compete more. So from a competitive landscape, I could say that I could argue that that's maybe not as good for the consumer experiences better, but maybe the rates and fees aren't. But once again, if you're only winning on rates and fees, you ain't gonna be around long in this business. So that's part of it. So I could argue that it actually will increase margins. And you might see gain on sale margins increase a little bit because people aren't, you know, low ball, low ball, low ball, low ball to win a loan because there's not 19 people calling them, you know, in my example. I think it's been good. It's been good overall. I don't have a huge preference one way for it or against it, but I'm just telling you what the results have been, you know, still early. It's only been 60 days or so since that rule came out. But that's what we're seeing right now. But, you know, brokers, our brokers that work with trigger leads, they're just finding out that people are buying data now. So it's just not trigger leads, it's other forms of buying data. So people are still getting leads and so it's still competitive. So I don't want to make it seem like it's just you go to one and you don't hear anything, but it's a lot less. And so it's changed the competitive environment on that. So hopefully that answers your question, Kyle. Let's see. Hopefully this format is good for you. I feel like we've gone through a lot of questions. Let's see. Here's one. A couple have asked a little bit about debt ratios when we go through life secured debt go up relative to other aspects of the balance sheet and you know how do we look at the debt ratio. So obviously we look at the debt ratios every day. We're very focused on them. The debt ratio is really good a couple years ago and the volume in business wasn't as good and now I think the business is really good and the debt ratios aren't as good as we'd like. But at the same time some of those debt ratios are a little bit of an anomaly based on and same thing with the liquidity number based on some trades we have out there. to help balance the MSR book. And so that sometimes goes up and down. And at the end of the quarter was up, but it's already come down a little bit now. And so those things change and fluctuate a little bit, which kind of throws those ratios off a little bit from what you're looking at. So they're better than you see. But at the same time, like I said, I feel really good about it. We watched the numbers closely. The key is earnings, right? And we're trying to see if you saw we had a very good earnings quarter. In the first quarter, I won't say very good, I'll say good. And there'll be quarters that we have a lot bigger rings, but we're monitoring it managing it, you know, we obviously really believe in delivering value to our shareholders of whether it's a dividend, which we've been doing obviously, but then buyback shares or other things. How do we continue to add value to our shareholders? And that's what we think about a lot. And so overall, our leverage ratios, our debt ratios, we feel really good about where they are. We monitor them, we manage them, and we understand them very, very well. And there's a lot of leverage we can pull to make those ratios better while still doing more business and having higher earnings. And so you'll see some of those in the second quarter and then beyond overall. So I feel good about that. I think that covered couple people on that let me just make sure I didn't miss a topic on that for anybody okay so let's keep moving and let's see I'm gonna try to hit a couple of these but Jason Stewart another one and once again please feel free to email like I know I can't do them live right now because I'm on a zoom with you guys but trying to make sure I cover everyone's questions and make sure but Here's a question kind of tied about from Jason from Compass Point. During periods of heightened volatility at the start of the year, how do you manage lock duration and pricing cadence? Did you increase frequency of rate sheet updates? I'll talk about that. How much volatility is awarded by built-in rewards? It's got nothing to do with that, but I'll explain that in a second. And impact of purchase boosts, 50 and something. Let me just talk pricing and dynamics and volatility. So first off, yeah, I mean, the market's been very volatile. And so we have an extremely experienced capital markets team. And so, yeah, sometimes you have two and three different rate sheets in a day. Maybe four. You know, rates get better, we're improving our improvement out there. Because if we don't put our improvement out there, we won't get the loans. Because we want the brokers to have the most competitive opportunity they have. Pricing get worse, we have to worsen pricing. But, like, as you guys know, these numbers are all day. All day. And so we have different thresholds that we move pricing up or down. And so when we hit those, like I said, I bet there's been days of four, maybe even five. And then there's some days that you put a rate sheet out at 10 a.m., nothing changes all day. Or it doesn't move enough that I would make a price change. Because you want to have some consistency for our clients as well. So that's the balance. But we feel really good about that. And that's why you saw really strong margins, you know, fourth quarter, by the way, and first quarter. And you'll see that same thing in the second quarter. Strong margins. And we are team managers of risk and volatility. So I think that answers most of your question. You had a thing about built-in rewards and that doesn't really have anything to do with it. Built-in rewards is just another benefit of brokers using UWM and consumers paying UWM as a servicer because they get rewards points and they get some cool things through Bilt which I kind of explained earlier. So it's got nothing to do with gain on sale or pricing to be honest with you at all. And then kind of another question from you and I think it's all one but I'm kind of answering it. So sorry to keep hitting on your same question, Jason. purchase boost 50 or pricing initiatives. So, you know, all those things are designed to help brokers succeed and win. Our brokers are not, I need the lowest price to succeed because, you know what, if that was the case, they'd cut their comp in half and they'd all use Provident Funding and that doesn't... Lowest price does not win. Lowest fees does not win. A lot of our pricing centers are more strategic than that. They're incenting brokers with a price incentive but to use a tool bar. So I think it was in the fourth quarter, maybe even the beginning of the first quarter, we had an incentive tied to 40 or 45 basis points, but use a hybrid or virtual closing because I know that makes the experience better for the consumer, which then makes the consumer more likely to like you, John Smith at Smith Mortgage, the broker, and more likely to refinance with you in the future. How do we make the borrower happy to score, which we track on every single loan, higher? And so a lot of those are investments. And it's all put in the gain on sale. So when you see I did some stuff in the fourth quarter, I did some of the first quarter, and the gain on sale is still much higher than it was last year in the first quarter. So understanding that 123 base points, I think is what it was in the first quarter or 122 in the fourth quarter. I understand the margins. I personally get involved with it every single day, so you know. So we track it. We understand where we're at with these things. And we give a very competitive price to our broker. We add significant value to our brokers to help them win more loans. We give the best service in the industry. We come out with AI tools and technology. We invest with three credit points for brokers to help them compete even more and help more consumers. And then I can go through all these things. I'm not going to go through them all, but it's all part of the deal. And so hopefully that makes sense. But I hope you realize that one thing I said there, which maybe I've not done a good job explaining, is a lot of these decisions are strategic to help brokers win. Sometimes brokers have never done a virtual closing and they're getting extra 45 base points to get them to do it. And then they do it on all loans now, even though they don't get that incentive, because they realize it's the best thing for the consumer and it'll help them build their business and grow and be a better experience. And then we all win. If brokers win, UWM wins. When consumers realize the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to get a mortgage is through brokers, UWM wins. Real estate agents win. Like we're all one team because that's best for consumers. When a consumer goes to some random commercial or goes to their local bank, which by the way, no disrespect to any of those people, but they usually are paying higher rates. When a consumer goes to MortgageMatchUp.com, they're going to find a broker that's going to get them a better rate, better fee, and a better experience. And so anything I can do to drive more business there is what I will do. think I've covered a lot of I know I didn't answer every question I apologize I did combine a bunch of us I think I've covered most themes if that's the right way of thinking about it let me just make sure UWM live questions I think I kind of answered UWM live about it's next week so thank you for those of you that are coming it's gonna be a great it's the biggest mortgage event of the year and so please come I look forward I'm gonna meet with some investors analysts anybody that's out there I spend time I'm there all day we have some great speakers it's really cool to see the broker community. So I think that's kind of answering your question here about is UWM live. Am I going to be there? Of course I'm going to be there. I love that. Um, I'm here every day grinding at it. So, um, we're about 40 minutes. I feel like we've covered a lot of the questions. Um, I don't know. How about this? Um, just to make sure I'm not missing anyone's specific question that asked. Um, I think I've covered it all. Um, Let me know how you like the format. Maybe next month I can see you guys too and we can have more interaction. But either way, hopefully you like the format. Hopefully it's different. I know that last quarter you didn't like that we didn't do the Q&A, so I'm here for it. I love this. I'll do this anytime with you guys. I enjoy talking about our business, but also you can use me as talking about the industry because this is where I live and breathe and sleep every day. So, please, give us feedback. Give our Investor Relations team on the format if you liked it. If we didn't answer questions, I apologize. I think I got everybody. But if I didn't, and you're asking Investor Relations team, Blake, that whole team will answer all your questions. We appreciate you guys. So thanks for being partners at UWM, shareholders, investors, analysts, anything we do to help make your life easier. Thanks for everything. And we're going to keep winning together, hopefully, with our brokers, the broker community, and UWM is going to continue to grow with my amazing team members here at UWM. So thank you for your time. Excited about the future here at UWM. The second quarter is going to be great as well. And we'll do the same format again, unless I get a lot of different feedback that you didn't like it. But hopefully you did, and hopefully it was valuable to you to spend this time with me. Have a great day.