Acerinox Sa

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Theranos fourth quarter and full year conference call. The year 2024 was a very important and transformational year for the group. As we will comment during this presentation, we continue to address our strategy moving to high added value materials and focusing on our core markets. The acquisition of Heinz International, the new production model implemented at Acerinos Europa, and the sale of Barrio Stainless have been important milestones that have occurred during this year. To discuss these topics and many more, we have here today our CEO, Bernardo Velazquez, our CCO, Miguel Fernandez, and for the first time in a full year presentation, the newly appointed CFO, Esther Camos. Before getting started, let me remind you that this conference call is being broadcast on our website, atherinos.com, on which you can also find the audited annual accounts and management report, which also includes the statement of non-financial information. Without further ado, I would like to hand the floor over to our CEO. Bernardo, please go ahead.

Thank you, Carlos. Good morning, everybody, and thank you for attending to this results presentation. One year more, we are here to speak about last year's results, how do we see the situation today, how do we see the situation for 2025, and what are we doing, what is the strategy, and how is Athena's position for all these changes, because many things are happening in this world. Many things happened in 2024, still changing in 2025. We can speak about, you know, 2024, wait and see. A year, everybody waiting for the European, the American elections, waiting for the new European Commission. Still, we are waiting for the new German government and still waiting for the reaction of the market that will come sooner or later. And many things have also happened in Acerinox. Many things started for fulfilling our strategy. We sold Varu Stainless with a lot of pain for us, but it was impossible to compete with other rules of the game with the Asian players. We are going to dedicate our efforts to our main markets. Starting with Europe, we are changing our business model. That cost us, as you perfectly know, five years of strike, but we are successfully changing the business model, changing to the new strategy, and going ahead with our strategy. And it's the year of Haines. It's the year of Haines where we are reinforcing the strategy that we started in 2019 with the acquisition of BDM. And thanks to the success of the BDM acquisition and thanks to our clear idea of what is the future for our industry and with our clear strategy, we decided to head with this project that is going to be transformational for our company.

when we talk about 2024, Clearly, the main definition we are using is a transformational year. If we were purely talking about business as usual, it should have been also an excellent year to commence and a year to be proud about. In the map, you are seeing all of our companies in these days. If we should start from the west to the east, we could talk about the breakdown very taking results of North American stainless in a difficult environment with three years of contraction in the states. And the results have been amazing. If we think of BDM, it's true that we had wins on the nickel market, but BDM has been taking records on a monthly basis in conversion margin. When we look at Columbus in South Africa, it's true that a big effort and a big work for improving the position of Columbus in the market and flexibility bringing new products. There are a lot of things on our business as usual to talk about, but the main slide today, obviously, is the transformational that is coming from these three milestones that Bernardo has mentioned. In this regard, If we start from the east to the west and try to value which has been the effect, the economical effect in our accounts of these three milestones, starting from the east, obviously the sale of Baro, as Bernardo mentioned, we informed that the sale of Baro was taking place at 95 million U.S. dollars. This is something that we have been disclosing in the last year. Baru was not core business anymore, but we prioritized to find the most suitable way for our stakeholders, mostly for our workforce, for keeping our operations and keeping the plant running. On this basis, finally, the decision was this sale, selling at 95 million US dollars. After last year, exercises of making impairments at various assets, at the end, this sale at 95 million dollars has created a higher effect and a higher income in our P&L in this year. So the effect has been 146 million euros in the year. And as I say, as a consequence of all the previous impairments that previously were taking place, and as a consequence that the sale also has occurred in 2024 at a stronger dollar-euro exchange rate, much more stronger than that one of the historical investment we made on Baru from the year 2009. So consequently, this has made a big contribution of 146 million euros in the year, and this compensates some of the areas that have had a negative impact in our results of the year. Obviously, the effect of putting in place the new business model for Atherinos Europa, as Bernardo mentioned, created tensions with the unions and we have been experiencing a five-month strike But it was very important that this business model was implemented. So obviously it has been painful experiencing such a strike, especially for our people in the area. But what's fortunate is that finally the business model has been implemented. This business model shall make the turnaround of the plant in Campo de Gibraltar for a year. profitable performance, even in hard times as the actual ones, but the bill that we have to pay as a consequence of the strike has had an effect of 84 million euros. When we made the first semester results, we talk about estimation that the strike in our accounts have created an impact of 43 million euros. This has been the direct loss appearing in our accounts. In addition, The losing possibilities, the losing orders, has created additional effect of around 40. So because of that, what we more or less quantify, the impact of that strike has been 84 million euros. Fortunately, now the situation is solved, and then we have this wage agreement working in place until end of 2027. As part of that wage agreement implementation, it has been agreed that our rejuvenation plan, and we already more or less have registered for it and included in accounts a provision for that plan which amounts to 12 million euros. So this is more or less at the end what appears as a consequence of the effects and the tensions taking place in the year. Fortunately, now they are solved. And then moving more to the west, it is clear that the acquisition of Heinz has been a great milestone. We have talked a lot about this in the last year since the 5th of February when we announced the deal. It has taken longer than expected because of several of the antitrust allowances that need to be obtained. Finally, it took place in December. Much more later than what we have preferred, but any case, since December, we incorporated Hanes in our figures. And as a consequence of that, the final valuation was the same that was announced at the very beginning. We have absorbed 51 million euros of debt of Haines, and also we have registered at the end of the year all the expenses incurred for the transaction, which have been valued at 21 million euros. So all this more or less has been the bills we have... needed to pay, most of them recorded at the end of the year, for the three milestones that create this year for being the transformational year in the Atherinos Group.

Let's speak a little bit about the situation of the environment in 2024. Look at the left side of this slide. Three consecutive years with apparent consumption going down in the United States. Something that is statistically not normal. We have been 26 consecutive months in the United States with the Purchase and Manager Index, the PMI, below 50. Historically, there's only one time in the history of the United States when PMI was below 50 for three consecutive years. That was in the 1929 crisis. So I don't think we are in this situation. So statistically, I think we can only go better in the United States. The economy sooner or later will react this year. In the environment that we have been in, Living in 2024, apparent consumption was flat. We have been reducing stocks in the market after all the the excess of optimism that we lived after in the post-pandemic situation. Now we have already digested the inventories. The market has been digesting the inventories through the years, through three consecutive years. And now the inventories in distributors in the United States are 19% below historical levels. So the situation is ready for recovery, for a rebuild of stocks. Prices have been stable in the United States, but because NASA, as a very clear and good leader of the market, has been sacrificing volumes to get these prices stable. Anyway, even with this sacrifice, we have demonstrated that we are the preferred option for our customers because we have increased our market share two points, which is important for our current position in the United States. In Europe, the situation is more or less the same, with a little bit more delay in the reaction. PMI that is already positive, more than 50 in the United States, is still below 50 in Europe in January and February. The apparent demand went up in the last part of the year, but mainly went to stock, was not real consumption. because inventories remain below historical level, but only 9% below the historical level. Imports has increased, and imports are not increasing more than this because of the low prices that we are suffering in this market. Imports have been pushing prices down, and finally we have a level of price that do not compensate their export, but still the prices remain very depressed. And in the nickel alloys, in the high-performance alloys business, the situation is totally different. It is quiet. It's a very consistent demand, very stable market. Oil and gas is still in very good shape. Of course, not in Europe, but there are many countries that are investing now in oil and gas. I'm speaking about Brazil, the Far East, the Middle East. Many other countries are still investing in oil. in petrol extraction. Electronics are okay after several years of depression, and automotive is more or less stable. Chemical industry is the only one that is a little bit softer, and aerospace is suffering the boiling situation, but it's something that will change sooner or later. In this environment, we have been very active. We have gone ahead. With the expansion plans of NASA and VDM, that is themselves, they are an important project. It's not so easy. There's some other companies that are suffering for a bad investment. This is something that normally doesn't happen in Acerinox. We are transforming our business model. We are following our strategy. We are sticking to our strategy. We are not changing. We are not turning anywhere with the low cycle because we have a clear picture of what is our future. We have sold Baru Steiners for the reason and we have acquired Heinz. But at the same time, we have been loyal to our traditional strategy. We are loyal to our ESG strategy. We have launched the EcoAcerinox. That is one steel grade in which We guarantee that we are using more than 90% recycled material, that we are using 100% of renewable energy, and that we are reducing CO2 emissions more than 50% compared to the standard production. It's a new product, and we hope that the European society, we are bidding for sustainability, bidding for these environmental improvements, and sooner or later we'll pay more for this material. It will be a speciality. We have been recognized again by EcoBuddies. We don't mind, of course, we mind, but we don't care about the gold award because it is only because of some standards of this evaluation that when you have a long labor conflict as we had in Argentina, you lose some points, but we will come back to platinum very soon. Following our carbon emissions reduction programs, And in this low cycle, with all these plans, with all this investment, we have been able to reach a net sales of 5.4 million, a reasonable good ABDA of 500. We have a good cash flow generation, and we are keeping our capex. I think the situation, if the theory says that it's better to invest in the low cycle, I think we are doing well. We are comfortable. Still, our debt is under control. And we have a lot of plans that I think have to be recognized by the market, that we have plans. We have a clear strategy. In turbulent times, we have plans and we have a clear strategy.

As Bernardo mentioned, we are presenting a remarkable EBITDA of 500 million euros in 2024. Our business is cyclical, and it's as it is, and we know it quite well. On that basis, we normally avoid bringing and introducing the adjustments or the adjustments to EBITDA because most of the issues that normally take place are part of our business and are part of the problems that we try to solve. In this year, there are exceptional circumstances that justify that for you understanding in your analysis and evaluation, which has been the metrics of the performance of the group, probably and especially having positive and negative effects, we have preferred to give a full transparency and putting on the screen all the facts that have been affecting the normal evolution of the business in this time. And as a consequence, as we mentioned, this EBITDA reported has been obtained having extraordinary circumstances like, for example, the provision that we have raised for the rejuvenation plan, In addition, we had covered in the last part of the year all the acquisition expenses of the investment at Heinz. We have been, in this regard, benefited by the effect in our accounts of the sale of valuable asset, this contribution of 146 million euros to our profits of the year. And we have made a remarkable inventory adjustment at the end of the year. And at the end this year has been remarkable, keeping in mind mostly two facts. In one side, as we mentioned, part of it, not so relevant, but part of it is in the high-performance alloys division as a consequence of the headwinds on the nickel. but the most relevant part of it is related to the disruptions that have been taking place in the production and in the sale of the material produced by atherinos europa because of the strike so has been a difficult year to manage in terms of obviously five months of a strike then the startup of production the approaching to the to the customers that we have been targeting these these circumstances at the end create At the close of the year, we prefer and we decided to make these adjustments for including more or less the material, which at the end probably could experience some loss in its naturalizable value, and it has been recorded at the end of the year. at the end of the year. So consequently this inventory adjustment is more than normal because the circumstances that generate that stock also as a consequence of a five month strike have been abnormal. Not considering these circumstances, the adjusted EBITDA that we are talking about, and Esther shall also explain the figures in detail now, reached to an amount of 445 million euros. Parting from this, adjusted a bit, what should have been the history if we should have not suffered the strike? Obviously, as we mentioned before, probably the profitability in this turbulent year should have been 84 million euros and above, so at the end, let's say, equivalent normalized EBITDA for the year 2024 should have been more close to the 529 million euros, which, taking into account more or less that you know the industry, all the players in the sector have been already releasing their figures, we understand that we are each time taking more distance with most of our competitors in terms of profitability and efficiency.

Okay, good morning everyone. I just want to start by saying that we have released today our annual audited accounts, as you know, and as Carlos already mentioned, As Miguel has not said, this year we really recommend you to read these accounts. They are very detailed. They explain very well all the events that have occurred during the year. It also includes the annual account with the sustainability report. And I want to thank also the financial department, sustainability department, and everyone helping with that because it's been really a very hard year to complete the accounts with everything happening in the last part of the year, so thank you. And just going to the results, We are proud of these results, we can say, and we are proud because of two things. The first thing is we have achieved a good result, even in the difficult market situation that also Bernardo and Miguel have already explained. Both in Europe and in the U.S., the demand has been very low, and even though we have achieved an EBITDA of $500 million and an adjusted EBITDA of $144 million. The second thing why we are proud is because we have been able to continue with our strategy. Our solid balance sheet has allowed us to still build the strong pillars that are going to be the path that led us to continue in the path that we have already initiated. And although about the extraordinary effects that Miguel has already talked about, We've been announcing them during the year. And we have been talking about the acquisition of Haynes and the divestment on Baru. But in the end, everything happens and affected the results in the last part of the year. So everything has been coming to our results in the fourth quarter. And this is what we can see in the slide that you have in the presentation. If we start just going to the quarter, okay, if we start by talking about production, in production we are reducing 19%. That's true. And that's mainly because with two objectives. The first one is, of course, to adapt the production to demand. And the second one is to reduce working capital, as you will see later when we talk about the working capital and the cash flow. In terms of sales, they have been also reducing in the quarter, mainly due to the lower volumes and also to the seasonability. The last part of the year is always lower. Okay, and then we go to the EBITDA. Okay, in the EBITDA, we are reporting 150 millions. You know that it's been affected by several factors, and all of the factors that Miguel has explained, all of them are in the fourth quarter. So the adjusted EBITDA, which is affected by the same extraordinary effects that Miguel has explained, will be of 91 percent. Not 91 million, sorry. In terms of margins, we have achieved a reported margin of 11%, but if we go to the adjusted, it will be a 7%, which is even higher than what we got last year, even in these bad circumstances. And we've got an operating, positive operating cash flow of 91 millions, mainly driven by the reduction on working capital that we have mentioned. Going to the year end, the volumes have been mainly affected by the mentioned strike. The sales have been even lower because of the reduction in nickel compared to last year. And then we go to the EBITDA of 500 million. I want to make a remark on the EBITDA, just one short remark, which is, If we go to the past, we don't see these levels of demands until we have to go 15 years back. So it's 2010, 2011 that we have same levels of demands that we have today. But if we go to the results, we are 60% higher. And that's the strategy. That's our diversity. That is what we are achieving with our strategy. If we, the operating cash flow, it's been 294 millions, okay, and the net financial debt is 1.1 billion, mainly affected by the acquisition of Hanes. Later we will talk about it. The ratio net debt, the bid is in 2.2, which we think is very satisfactory, having in mind the new acquisition. If we go to our divisions, okay, and let's start by stainless. Stainless is reflecting all the effects that we have seen in the extraordinary and the breach that Miguel has presented. Everything is concentrated in stainless. Even the expenses of buying of Hanes are in this Evita II. Okay, stainless has been our traditional core business. Okay, we have NAS, of course, is giving us an advantage compared to other producers. We keep margins in very good levels if we compare to other producers as well. And if we divide Europe and US, in Europe, okay, we have paid a bill. That's right. We have paid the cost of the strike this year. But we have been able to implement all the measures that in the short term will allow us to change the trend of our plant in Algeciras. In the case of U.S., as Bernardo mentioned, we have sacrificed volumes, okay, but we have been able to maintain prices, which are very good, and we have continued being the leaders in that market. The reported EBITDA, 126, and 383 for the years with a margin of 9%. And I think diversification is what is making Atherinox different. So if we go to HPI in high-performance alloys, in high-performance alloys we have longer-term visibility. We have long-term contracts. We have longer terms of delivery. So that makes us have a better view of what is going to happen. We have a solid order book. There is a stable market, especially in oil and gas. Oil and gas has remained high during all this year. And when you compare results, you might think, okay, but results are not the same as you had. That's true, but please remind, and we have been remembering you all the time that oil 2023 was not a recurrent year. It was really affected by the tailwinds of the nickel, which is something that has not occurred this year, even though we have had a low headwind, let's say, instead of the tailwind that we had last year. So that's what is making it to be lower, but even though we have an EBITDA of 117 in the year. These results in the quarter are included only one month of Haines. Okay, Haines acquisition, even though we would have liked it to happen before, it really happened all in the same month, so we are just consolidating one month, but the full debt. Okay, so haze in the U.S., as you know, the last part of the year has been impacted. It's always impacted by sustainability, and this year we had also the elections, and we had the Boeing issues in aerospace, but they will recover along. The operating is very remarkable. The operating cash flow of 140 million compared to the 7 million of last year, I think. And just going to the cash flow. Okay, we are representing the gas flow in a very comprehensive way, we think. We start by the MDA of the 500 million. Then we can see the decrease in the working capital of 71 million. We have decreased inventories. We have decreased rate receivables, but also payables, as Miguel will mention too. I think it's also remarkable the financial expenses. You know that our strong balance sheet position with high volume of cash in remunerated cash in US dollars makes our financial statement to be almost insignificant. And it has allowed us, all that cash has allowed us also to pay our transaction in cash. Okay, the taxes paid this year, 131, and then we reached the operating cash flow of 294 million. In terms of CapEx, okay, CapEx has been 205 million paid this year. We announced a higher cash flow than that. It's true that there's been some delays due to the strike, also in the medium power, but in general, NAS and everything is is all the projects are in time, okay? We are not having delays on that, just maybe invoices that have been delayed to January, but nothing exceptional there. And then baru. Baru, some of you may think, why only $18 million when you are selling at $95 million? Baru has been sold at $95 million. It's going to be $95 million cash. The thing is that the price has been split. We have been receiving 20% of the price in this year. That's the $18 million that you see in the cash flow. And then the 80%, is going to be secured through a bank warranty that will be collected in the second quarter of 2025. Okay, and then we have Haines. Okay, here we have, this is the cash that we have paid for Haines, the $1,769 million. This is the cash that has been out from the group. It does not include the net financial debt that we have incorporated from Haines, which is $51 million. The free cash flow is negative in 662 million because of that payment. If we deduct the acquisition, we will have a positive free cash flow of 128 million. In terms of dividend, we keep the compromise with our dividend. In this year, 2024, we have increased the dividend by 3%, and our aim is always to keep the dividend flat. We have paid dividends forever, okay? Even good circumstances, bad circumstances, that remains flat. And then the net financial debt increase in this year has been of $779 million.

For splitting this huge increase in the net financial debt, you also know that one of our main assets always has been the financial strength. The financial strength of Atherino's group is mostly supported on one fact. For the last years, we have been, as you know, more or less accumulating a strong cash position in the States, a strong cash position in dollar. And also we have been more or less following a very competitive finance in Europe. We are very, very well accompanied by long-term parents that at the end value our business and value our performance. Consequently, we are not rated. Not, consequently, our sector is maybe, it's not so glamorous for the rating agencies, but we are probably being considered investment grade for most of our pool of long-term relations banks, and consequently, our time debt is extremely competitive, and in addition, is covenant-free, which also is something that in our sector is relevant, keeping the security of our business. We always have the comfort of that any distortion or any strong correction should not affect our position. So on that basis, the net financial debt for us is not a headache, but it's true that in this year 24, we are finishing with the highest level of net financial debt since the year 2008. The reported figure is 1.1 billion euros, as Esther mentioned. There are obviously two strong circumstances that have reached this figure to be there. The most relevant is all the Haynes acquisition taking place in December. In addition, also, the Baru, the closing and the selling of the Baru for us has had an effect. Obviously, the first part of the payment has been receiving cash, as Esther mentioned, but Obviously, we have honoured the liabilities of VARU and the debt payments and a consequence of that also the selling of the VARU business has increased our debt in terms of around 60 million. So what we wanted more or less to clarify in this slide is the business as usual should have moved us to a reduction of debt in this year pro forma of 122 million euros and closing the year 2024 in 2019. The circumstances create that we are reporting this figure, and our commitment is that this obviously shall be gradually reduced, and not only with the cash generation for the business, but also for a strong program in place for reduction of working capital. If we move to the sustainability development in the year, we could spend hours talking about sustainable. In fact, the annual report, which is available at our web page, from this report, two-thirds is related to sustainable. So I also insist the relevance of following it, and I want especially to congratulate all the effort of the sustainable team in Atherinox, because we have voluntarily adopted the European corporate sustainability reporting disclosure that still is not compulsory in Spain, but we have preferred to anticipate and make it voluntary in this year. So, just for giving a quick speed, in most of the areas we are overperforming. We are overperforming in diversity, in waste reduction, in water withdrawal, in GHG emissions, so we clearly are above the targets. There are two areas where we have been below the targets, and those two are more related to the circumstances taking place in the year. One is in terms of safety. We have obtained a reduction in the injury rate of an 8%. The target was more ambitious, but it's true that the target is defined for a business-as-usual running year. With the disruption taking place this year with the failures as a consequence of the strike, start up, accommodation to the new condition market. It has been several more manual interventions, these manual interventions, these more maintenance in the shutdowns or in the stops. create minor injuries incidents. Obviously, all of them are monitored, but this less ambitious reduction than the one we were planning was especially as a consequence of that. We clearly should improve this, and obviously we have programs in place even for reducing that level of minor injuries. The other area which obviously has been affected is in terms of energy. It's clear that in the low-capacity utilization, we cannot be successful of the reduction of intensity in energy, but at the same time, what we have put in place is a new decarbonization plan for the year 2025-2030. This decarbonization plan is fully aligned with the Beyond Excellence program. It's very... related to energy efficiency and increasing renewable electricity, so we are there. It more or less implies an increase in operational expenses or minor capital expenditure related to the efficiency plan, around 2.5 million euros per year. And with this, we clearly can commit to have an expected savings of around 800,000 tons of CO2 per year. This is focused on a scope reduction, a scope one and two of 45%, which is significant. under our control fully, and we commit to move in that direction, and also in the scope three, which is obviously less under our control because we also depend from our suppliers in terms of a 15% reduction from now to the year 2030. In addition, as previously Bernardo introduced, we are obviously putting on place the EcoAcer Inox with 100% renewable energy utilized for that and most of 90% from recycled material. So this means 50% production on the intensity of CO2 for that production and we are in deals with 44 customers that probably are the one where the introduction for our participation in this relevant market for the coming years.

Okay, strategy. I will go first in this presentation because you already know most of the things. We are following our career strategy. We have already mentioned a lot of things about our strategy today. We prefer to give you some time at the end of the presentation for the Q&A session. Remember, strategy, four pillars. Excellence, added value, and everything is surrounded by sustainability and based in a very solid financial structure. Added value. Look at the pyramid of the materials. We were very, very important in the lower part of the pyramid, commodity stainless steel grade, tailor-made stainless steel grades for our customers, Now we have BDM in the left-hand side. Now it's HPA. We are leaders in the world in HPA, and we want to fill the gap between both things. We want to make special stainless and other alloys that can fill this gap to be We already are the company in the sector with the widest portfolio of products because we are making stainless, HPA, and flat, and long. If we fill the gap, we'll have all the parameters of the heat, temperatures, and corrosion-resistant materials unique in the market. So now moving from a more commodity, a global presence, now more added value, more focus in our main markets. Of course, we cannot forget We still have to be competitive, still we have a commodity maker. We cannot lose this because our factories are prepared, are designed for big production series, and we need to keep this running. We have released in 2024, the first year, the new program Beyond Excellence with a target of 45 million euros, and we only reached 41. It's not bad, 91, even in the situation of the Athenian strike. For 2025, we have released the second year of this plan, in which we will have a target of 38 million, plus 7 million of Atherinox strike that we couldn't fulfill during 2024. Atherinox Europe, we already mentioned, we need a new organizational model, so it's flexibility, polyvalence, New production bonus, everything is focused on this flexibility that we need to work in these volatile times. And moving to added value. 5% up of the added value product, steel grates, and 10% up in end-user business. We have to be adapted to the cycles and attached to our strategy. Colombo sooner or later has to be focused in Africa. You know, this world is becoming more regional. In the past, Colombo used to sell 70% in export markets and 30% in local. I want to turn these numbers. We want to be 70% in Africa because not many companies can say that have more than 50% market share in a whole continent. We are around 50% market share in the whole Africa, and we cannot lose this position. So we are specializing in Colombo in what we know how to do. We are in the country with the biggest reserves of chrome. So let's make ferritics, let's be the specialists in the world in ferritics. And we are specialists in ferritics and we are developing new rates to accompany our customers in their needs. We are making mild steel. Also there was a lack of mild steel in the country. We are making mild steel. We are very close to start marketing electrical steel. We are also developing HPA production with the knowledge, of course, of VDM, developing this HPA in Africa. Because we need to focus on the African market. We already are, I think, the most flexible plant in the world. I don't know anybody else that can make mild electrical and stainless in the same plant with the same equipment. We are the clear leader of the American market. We have an important market share there, and we don't want to lose it. We don't want to lose it that we are investing to expand our capacity by 20%, not to put pressure on the market, just to keep our market share. And we are demonstrating here the importance of digitalization, because as you can see, how can you increase 20% The capacity that is more than 20,000 tons per year with only a capex of 244 million. It is because, you know, the investments in the melting shop and in the hot rolling mill are almost for free. They're coming from digitalization. They're coming from digital models. They're bottlenecking our business with digital models and using digital tools to increase the productivity of our lines. So it will be a success for sure. Paybacks, 2.75 million. VDM, more or less the same. World leader in HPA. I want to remain as world leader in HPA. So we are investing. $67 million with a payback of 2.4 years to increase capacity in remelting and downstream to utilize all this new capacity. Of course, we don't forget the synergy between VDM and Acerinox. Remember that we have reached 70 million. There is 46 more than achieved. And we are also investing in powder atomizers because we want to be a top technology in this industry, and we're bidding for this technology of manufacturing, additive manufacturing.

In year 2020, we acquired BDM in the center of the COVID crisis in March 2020. Clearly, our strategy was diversifying through the high-performance alloys. If we compare the previous five years' average of beta of BDM in that period, it was 76 million euros. In the four years in which BDM is inside a three-nose group, The bid average has been 120 million euros, so it's almost 60% above what was the previous period for BDM. When we made the announcement, we clearly clarified we have an ambitious target of contribution of BDM of around 7 million per month, 84 million per year. We have been even overperforming. 43% compared with this basis. So this justifies obviously our excitement in growing and moving more forward the high performance alloys and as a consequence of that obviously came the Heinz acquisition. that has been taking place and taking most of our of of our work and efforts uh during the year 2024 for for trying to close the deal and and start more or less moving forward finally we are there as it has been mentioned we are expanding in america we are expanding in in in in a sector relevant as the aerospace one we are having the combined capabilities next slide please we are with a combined capability that we have also with the operations we have in Kentucky, and there we are fully, not only motivated, but fully optimistic of what is going to be the Haines contribution and growth in the group in the coming years.

Why Haines? And there's enough reasons for what Miguel explained. Why did we decide to acquire Heinz? Remember that we are not an expert in reorganization, in restructuring companies. We normally, when we buy companies, we buy good companies that can be added to the Athenian group to make it better. And this is what we are doing with Heinz. It's a good company, with good knowledge, good people, but why Heinz plus $200 million? It's because, you know, studying the business plan of Heinz, we realized that they needed some more capacity, that they had a bottleneck in the in the melting shop and in the forging site, and we needed to expand that capacity. And expanding that capacity, we can also have more synergies that I will speak later between Haines and Nash. Haines is only located three hours by truck from Nash. Haines is in Indiana, on the other side of the Ohio River. Nash is in Kentucky, but in the Ohio River Tide, so the synergies can be implemented much, much easierly. And we are now starting the integration phase. Not easy. We have to integrate FENCH in three sites. First, we are creating a platform, an HPA platform. So we are integrating from the business side, HENCH and BDM. Sooner or later, with the new investments, HENCH will have to be oriented to NAS. NAS is 100% the owner of HENCH. And also, not so simple, HENCH and the HPA division have to report To this consolidated numbers I have to report to Madrid. When the analysis of this investment, we estimated 71 million euros. After sharing the information with the Heinz team, we have reconfirmed that this can be the 71 that we find it out, and we are increasing to 75. We founded new areas of development. Of course, the origin of the synergies is operational side, benchmarking between two companies is very important, and hence a team and the VDM team never had the possibility to benchmark their activities with a colleague, with a partner, not in the same business. And this is what we're doing. We know how to do it because we did it in Atherinox, comparing and benchmarking Atherinox, NAS, and Columbus, and even Baru. So from this point, we've come a lot of synergies, more than expected, probably. Heinz has a steckel mill, a hot rolling mill, which is a powerful steckel mill in which we can also hot roll the stainless steel plates. So stainless steel plates have less productivity than normal coils. If we move some of these plates to be hot rolled in Heinz, we will free some extra capacity to increase our capacity in us, so this will give us an advantage. We will start producing wire rod in us as well. Of course, we are going to combine the workforce and we are going to combine the products, the patents and the technology. So everything is perfect on this. Heinz is matching very much, but also when we decided to go ahead with Heinz and to increase the capacity, So we find out what is for me the real exciting thing of this investment. What for me is really making this project a really exciting one. It's a cannon because, you know, this increase of capacity in Hains will let us start producing HPA loan products in Nash. We will make billets in Haines that will be sent to us to make wire rods. We are investing. We already approved the day before yesterday new equipment for the hot rolling mill in Nash that will let us have a better control of the process and will let us start hot rolling long products of HPA. Long products in HPA in the United States, that means aerospace. and the aerospace industry, besides the problems of Boeing, is booming. Anomaly is a very special business, and we will start making this long product HPA in a factory that is probably the most competitive in the world. So we will increase price and we will reduce cost. And this is a big project. This is a game changer, I think, in the American industry. So very proud of this and I'm very excited with this project because I can tell you, it's a cannon. It's great. And also, this will give us a more balanced situation, no Miguel?

Yeah, the global footprint is fabulous. At the end, BDM is world leader in the high-performance alloy sector, but it's more oriented its production to Europe. Consequently, the acquisition of Heinz also balances better the position because Heinz is majority driven to place its production in the North American market. So at the end, The final figure of the combined entity in HPA gives a presence of 53% of its sales to Europe and 28% in North America. This is exactly the opposite that the one we have in stainless. So it's the perfect balance. In stainless, 52% of our sales go to North America, and then Europe means around 30%. So consequently, geographically, we are... excellently balanced now for covering whatever could be the circumstances or distortions in each of the geographies. In addition, if we move to sectors, most of BDM production, it's more relevant markets where oil and gas and the chemical process industry, obviously more of 50% of the sales of things are driven to our space. so now we no other player in the high performance alloys has such a diversified portfolio with relevance of sectors such as chemical processing industries the oil and gas the aerospace and also the industrial gas turbine so we are not exposed to our single to a to a single sector where most of our competitors probably are more dependent on one specific sector when there are disruptions tensions obviously The software is much more. Our footprint in this regard has no comparison in this industry.

Last but not least, if we want to fulfill this gap in the pyramid of materials, as I mentioned before, and if we want to be a leader in technology, we need R&D. And together with Heinz, now we have the strongest team, the strongest capabilities in R&D in our sector. We have 53 patents. BDM is a leader in the world in patents. Heinz is already supplying most of the sales of Heinz are property materials, materials that have been invented in Heinz. We are combining this force plus the... The knowledge that we have, the expertise that we have in Acerinox in improving process. So the combined R&D forces of the three companies is going to be relevant in the market. It's relevant. And this is because if we want to be the technology, we have to go before, ahead of the market. We have to be designing what we need for the future. That's why we released this interesting project in the Atherinox Group that is called Materials for the Day After Tomorrow. Because it's a think tank that we have created inside Atherinox with people from all the nationalities in different areas, thinking what are going to be the megatrends for the future, how the world is changing, what will we need in 10 or 20 years, and starting to develop these new alloys, these new stainless steel grids for them. Because we think that in the future, Athenianos can be a prescriptor of material, can be a service supplier instead of just a material supplier. You can come to Athenianos and say, okay, you have everything. I want to build this chemical plant. What do you recommend us? And we have flat, long, stainless steel, commodity stainless steel, special stainless steel, alloy, everything. So we can be the prescriptor of material, helping engineering firms and helping the companies to use the right material in the right application. So very happy, very excited with our strategy and I think we have a very clear path. I think we all in Athenian House share this view and we are going to fulfill it. So finishing with the conclusions, of course we think we have a strong and successful strategy in a very changing year, in a very challenging year. We are working in building the new Atherinox. We're going ahead in this path with our organic and inorganic growth, increasing our presence in final customers, added value, moving to solutions more than products, investing in the low part of the cycle with a solid balance sheet. All these things are thanks to this solid balance sheet because we are 2.2 times better in the low part of the stainless steel cycle and in expansion phase. And looking ahead, As I said, the situation is starting to improve. Our other book for March is better. Still, January, February, we're very depressed, more or less following the same rhythm that the fourth quarter last year. But now there's a little bit more visibility in the market, especially in the United States. And the things are starting to move. Probably Q2 will be better. Probably the economy will react through the year, but with our current situation, with our other book, with the solid margins that we have in HPA, we can say that Q1 ABDA will be slightly better than Q4. I think this is important. It's a good starting point. We are starting to see the sun, and we are very optimistic with our future. So thank you very much.

Okay, thank you very much Bernardo, Esther and Miguel for the presentation. Let's move now to the Q&A session. We will start first here with questions from the room. To ensure that everyone can hear the question, please raise your hand and we will give you a microphone.

Hi. Good morning, Oscar Rodriguez, Banco Sabadell. Two questions, if I may. The first one is if you could provide a bit of color in the Heinz Aerospace business. Specifically, what's your view for 2025? It's something that is more linked to Boeing or it's something that is also supply chain? And the second one that is specifically for the part of the net financial debt that you are expecting for 2025. We have seen also your numbers for EBITDA adjusted. And also if you have, let's say, some figure for the ratio. Thanks a lot.

Thank you, Oscar. I will start with aerospace. This is not our business. We only can tell you what we know from our customers. What is happening today is that with all the problems with strikes and failures in Boeing, there's a collapse in the supply chain. So the others are there. I think Boeing is full of others until 2040 or something like that. It's incredible. And Airbus can be in a similar situation. The military industry is also booming. So the situation will improve. But what happened today is a problem of the supply chain. There's some collapse in the supply chain. So we have the others. We have our material. But our material is waiting to be delivered once they have the bottleneck, the problem that they already have. But the others are there. So we don't have to cancel the others. We don't have a lower order book. We are postponing the deliveries.

About the expected net financial debt. Okay. The net financial debt, we need to have into consideration that for next year, we expect an increase on activity. Okay. Due to the strike of the year, almost we are expecting around a 20% increase in volumes. And that normally comes with an increase in work capital. What we are aiming, and we have very strong programs inside the group just to contain the working capital. So what we are trying and the objective that we have is at least to keep the working capital stable, even though we are increasing the activity. And we cannot forget that we are on expansion plans. So the expected capex also for next year is going to be higher. We'll be on the range of... 300, 350, something like that. So the aim at the end of the year would be at least to keep the debt. Obviously, with the higher bid expected, the ratio will go down. We won't be at the levels of the 1.2 probably that we have as an objective. That probably will take two years, but we expect more or less debt to be stable.

Any other questions here in the room? Okay, so let's move now to the questions from the conference call. Please, operator, go ahead.

Thank you. Our first question comes from Krishnan Agarwal with Citibank. Please go ahead.

Hi, thanks a lot for taking my question and the detailed presentation. The first question is on the U.S. tariffs. You alluded to in your presentation that you are expecting the positive impact from the tariff measures on the demand into the U.S. Have you seen any kind of early signs of that demand coming through? And also, are there any kind of signs that you are seeing in terms of tightening of the current exemptions which are there in Section 232 tariffs?

Christian, thank you very much for the question. I would like, if I don't tell you, that I was willing to receive this question because it's pretty interesting. You know, when this Section 232 method started to be implemented in the United States in 2018, after this 25 tariff, several countries started to negotiate quotas with the United States. That was the case in Brazil, Korea, Japan, Europe, and UK. That means that they imposed a quota that was 85% of the average exports to the United States, and below 85% was free, and above was also charged with the 25%. And through the years of implementation, some of the American importers are starting to ask for exemptions of materials that were not easy to find in the United States or were not made in the United States. At the end, we have estimated that more or less, speaking about flat products and speaking about our estimations, that from the 28% of imports in the United States in 2024, around 15% of that was materials that were exempted before and now will be subject Of course, selling to tariffs today, who knows what's going to happen tomorrow? Who knows which countries are going to negotiate with the United States and who knows what's going to happen? But today, 15% of the imports that currently were received in the United States will be charged with 25% tariffs. It's 15% of the market, so that means that the local suppliers could increase production because many of these countries, many of these suppliers will not be able to compete with a 25% duty. Second, and probably even more important for the future, is that in the new 232 tariffs, More materials, more sectors have been included. It's not only related to steel. In the last two 32 was only steel products plus tubes. Now, some other products where steel or stainless steel represents a big portion of the cost have been included. In our case, I can tell you, it's beer barrels, it's tanks, it's sinks, it's bolts, many other sectors. We haven't estimated this yet, but for sure, if that happens, if that finally happens, and it will start being applied at the beginning of March, that will help the American industry, and that will help the American industry, and that will help our customers, and will develop more consumption inside the United States. So very positive for our ambitions there.

Thank you. Before we take our next question, as a reminder, to ask a question from the phone lines, please press star and then one on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Tristan Gresser with BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.

Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my questions. First, if I can ask a few follow-ups on the U.S. tariffs. If you look back at 2018, at the time, did you notice any type of demand destruction from the tariffs? And also... I mean, I think if we look back at 2018, when the tariffs were announced, we got a squeeze pretty fast and stainless steel prices start to move higher. And we've seen that for carbon grades, but I don't think we've seen that for stainless. So if you can just share your view of how this time is a bit different from 2018 and why stainless steel prices are not yet reacting.

Thank you, Tristan. The situation between carbon steel and stainless steel is and was totally different, but it depends on the players of the market. 2018, when the tariffs were implemented, was not an exceptional year. The prices were more or less moving a little bit higher, but we, as a market leader and as a responsible market leader, decided to support our customers and not to squeeze them with the highest prices of this study so we reach a reasonable level of prices that we are trying to keep and this will be more or less the situation the thing is that we will increase our capacity utilization in 2019 the most of the american players were not working in a stand still at 100 capacity What happened with all the disruptions and what people thought that there was not enough capacity in the United States was in 2021. And that was the post-COVID reaction. The supply chain was so empty after the COVID times, after 2020, that when the market started to react, people realized that there were no, for an example of automotive, there were no cars in the car dealers' stores, there was no exhaust system in the makers, no stainless steel in distributors, and very few stainless steel in producers. So everybody wanted to increase the position for a booming and expansion in the economy, And everybody wanted to buy double. If you are a car dealer and you have two cars, you sold two cars, then you don't ask for two cars, you ask for four. Everybody was duplicating the necessities of materials, and in 2021 it looked like there was not enough production in the country, but this is not true. This was speculation. And now we think it's going to happen more or less the same. No disruptions in the supply chain in the United States, no disruption in stainless steel supplies, and reasonable higher prices. This is what we can expect.

Thank you. The next question comes from Dominic O'Kane with J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.

Hi, thank you for taking my question. I wanted to go back to Haynes, and if you could just maybe give us some assistance on how we should think about the run rate for Haynes as we step into Q1. You obviously had one month of contribution in December, but how should we think about Haynes' contribution for Q1 and looking across 2025? That's my first question.

In principle, the business at Heinz should be probably gradually improving, probably more activity in the second semester than still in the first semester. So these issues affecting the supply chain, mostly related to aerospace, still are to be solved. As also has been mentioned before, The year in which there has been more effect or influence of all the turbulences taking place, mostly in Boeing with the strike, with the incidents, also with the accidents taking place, already is gone. So it's true that at the end, this has not been a cancellation of orders, but has been that most of these projects and new orders are delayed and shall be coming gradually for the next year. So So it is expected to be gradually improving, but mostly in the second semester than in the first semester. It shall be adjusting, but for a better contribution in the second semester of the year.

Thank you. The next question comes from Bastian Sigowitz with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning all, and thanks for taking my questions. My first one is just a quick technical follow-up on the cash flow side, and just to understand the situation around Baru. So, so far, I think from what I understand, you barely had a 60 million net increase in net debt, but you had originally guided for a 95 million reduction in net proceeds. So, which exactly is the future number of cash and net debt reduction, which you will still see from the transaction? Is it The 80 million difference between the 95 and the 18 million cash, which you have already received, or are you still actually receiving the reversal of the 60 million and the 95, i.e. more like 175 million total cash in and net debt reduction in 2025? That is my first question.

Thank you, Bastian. Okay, the Baru sale. Okay, Baru sale, the price has been $95 million. Okay, that is clear. The collection that we have received in this year is $80 million, which is 20% of the price, and the rest up to the $95 million will be collected in the second quarter of year 25. Okay, so this has been... This has been warranted by a bank warranty that will be collected in the second quarter of this year. Okay, that is what we got for the price. The amounts that we presented in the slide is because the sale was cash and debt free. Okay, so we had to cancel to pay all the suppliers that were still outstanding at Baru before selling it to the third party, but the 95 million is the cash that we're going to get back. Party this year, 18 million this year, and the rest on 2025.

Thank you. The next question comes from Maxime Cotta with OdoBHF. Please go ahead.

Yeah, good morning. So you shared a relatively sturdy outlook on the U.S., and I was wondering whether you also saw some green shoots of recovery in Europe, whether it was driven by restocking or also by real demand picking up, and if you could share some color on the various end markets there. And complementing that, could you give us utilization rates for the various units as you usually do? Thanks for that.

In Europe, the situation is still not clear, not from a statistical point of view or for the situation of the market, stocks and what we are receiving. We expect an improvement starting in March. What we haven't seen today, especially because everybody was waiting for the German elections, even the European Commission, and most of our customers, most of the people still are not bidding for a clear recovery. But the situation is improving in several areas. The automotive industry is stable. Construction, especially in Spain, is moving up a little bit. Industrial equipment is still waiting. Probably, you know, depends on... capital goods, and this kind of investment normally awaits until having a more clear picture of the situation. But in general, everything related with consumer goods is improving. Still, we are not We are realizing an improvement of our other book. Still, we cannot say it's not booming. Still, prices are depressed. But we expect that somewhere during the second quarter, the situation will improve. Capacity utilization...

As we stated in the results presentation, we are seeing that the situation is probably improving from the month of March, so still the volumes in January and February are more in line. with those of the previous year. So we understand that the basis, more or less, still we have not seen all the green shoots that are appearing in the media. So at this time, our understanding is that probably in North America, we think it still is rationally prudent to talk of keeping volumes of 80%. And then gradually, obviously, the effect in a three-nose Europa should be normalizing from a year which has been strongly damaged by the five months without activity. Having said that, In the new business model we are now implementing in Acerinox Europa, as far as we are going to a specific niche of produce, high value added, the productivity of the plant shall be adapted. to this material, which obviously more or less needs more processing, so consequently shall be a reduced amount. So on this basis, still what we need to see is when is the market reacting in Europe and when we can have a much more relevant capacity utilization. On the time being, still we need to see when the market reacts, so it's soon, but maybe a level between 50% or 60% could be prudent for both Atherinos Europa and Columbus.

Thank you. The next question is a follow-up from Tristan Gresser with BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.

Yes, hi, thank you. Just two follow-ups, and the first one is on the tariffs and the U.S. situation in the U.S. Can you remind us your product mix, longs versus flats in the U.S.? I think in the past you mentioned that you were not too exposed to imports So just I want to make sure you get some benefit there. And would you see also any risk of idle capacity being restarted in the country regarding Haines and the tariffs impact, the steel one, but also the ones against Canada and Mexico, anything to be aware of? So that's the first question. And the second one is just on Europe. If you can talk a little bit about the policy development we're seeing from the new commission, the industrial clean plan, the potential support on the energy side, the safeguards that might be coming. So having your view on all those policy developments in Europe and how they could benefit you, also the material circularity, and I know that's a lot of topics, but it just would be interesting to have your view there. Thank you.

Thank you, Tristan. In the United States, tariffs will affect everything. I didn't say that the flat-bottle business is not exposed to imports. They have 28% of the market is imports, so they will more or less charge with 25% to 15% of these imports, or 15 points of these imports. Every product is going to be affected. It's long, it's flat. In flat products, there's a lot of import pressure, especially in wire road from India and from Italy. And we are producing wire road. We are also producing bars and angles. Bars has always been a closer market because it's an end-user business. You deliver it directly to the end-users. Angles is a good business for us. There's a lot of imports of Italian and Indian angles. These countries are probably the most powerful in the long-produced business. And they will be affected. India was already affected before, but not Italy. And Italy will be included, so for the long product business it's going to be better. But also because, you know, there's screws and snails and this kind of things that are normally made with a wire rod. If the United States is protecting with a tariff all these products made with stainless steel, the production of these products in the United States will increase. and then our sales to this customer will increase so we are affected in flat affected in long and affected in the customer side so everything is positive for us in eu what i can tell you is that it looked like the commission and the european countries are waking up of a nightmare but are waking up no because everybody is is now realizing of the import importance of the industry and the importance of the steel industry I can tell you, because it's public, that yesterday I attended a meeting in Paris with the ministers of industry of Spain, Italy, and France. and many member states, representatives of many member states, and representatives of other companies of the steel business. And the message was very clear. Europe needs the industry. And to survive with our industry, we need the steel industry. Steel is the base of everything in Europe. Still, as the Italians said, we are the... the founding fathers of the EU because at the beginning it was the community of coal and steel. The first flag of this CECA or the community of coal and steel was black and blue. Black for coal, blue for steel. Now it's only blue and we cannot lose this blue. So it's important that everybody is realizing now of this importance. And we are starting to speak about many topics that were almost forbidden before. If we are starting to speak about a common defence policy, that was the red line in the European Union, we can speak about everything. We can speak about a bank union, we can speak about tax harmonisation, but we also can speak about a common energy a business, a common energy market. And this is important. Everybody is realizing that the steel industry and all electro-intensive industries, we need a very competitive electricity cost, because we are competing with countries that have cheap electricity, and we need it. And governments are starting to be aware of this. They are starting to be aware that the safeguard measures are not enough, that we need... more strict several measures more strict measures in general and that we have to apply all the the tools that we have in wto rules anti-damping anti-subsidies anti-circumvention all these things we need to to squeeze the system the wto system we don't want to go out of the system to strengthen all these measures because otherwise we are suffering circumvention of many countries and unfair competition from many countries and in the future we will also suffer the circumvention of the C-band measures. So what I saw yesterday and you all can see when you read the newspapers and we see what our politicians are declaring is that industry is important and steel industry is a key industry for the future of Europe. I'm very confident that we are going to start giving the importance that we deserve in the economical and in the political field in Europe, and our politicians are now starting to be more affected. So we expect somehow a strengthening of all the anti-dumping cases that we have, and also to have a faster... administration of the anti-dumping and trade measures in Europe, because with the length of the procedures in Europe, we cannot react to the threat of our input. So everything is changing. I'm optimistic because finally Europe is situated between the overcapacity of China And the protection is of the United States. So we have to do something. And I believe that now Europe is starting to consider the steel industry very seriously.

Thank you. The next question is a follow-up from Krishnan Agarwal with Citibank. Please go ahead.

Hi, and thanks a lot for taking the follow-up. Before I ask a question, probably a request to the operator to be patient before we finish asking our questions, not to put the lines on the mute. I have three questions. The first one is on the CBAM. There's a lot of chatter and the noise around the CBAM operationability from the 1st of January 2026. What is your view in terms of the stainless steel sector, the provisions that have been made in the CBAM Do you see that implementability from the 2026, or are you pushing for some more kind of stricter changes for your sector?

Thank you, Christian. There's a lot of questions surrounding the CBAN implementation. because still we don't have a clear picture of how we're going to tackle things like exports, because if we have an extra cost because of the decarbonisation, we will have this extra cost for 100% of our production. But the countries exporting to Europe, They cannot have just a limited production of one grade that is decarbonized and the rest of production, no. So the new conversations that we have in the Commission is that we have to consider countries instead of products and countries instead of producers. So this is very interesting and we have to... We need to resolve how to tackle the European exports because being non-competitive, we will not be able to export. This is very clear and something that we have to face. Around SIBAN, there are a lot of questions. Still, I cannot give you my view because there is not a clear picture. One day, you read that it is going to be postponed. I think yesterday or the day before yesterday, some industry associations were asking not for postponement of SIBAN, but to cancel the SIBAN project. So still everything is now moving very fast, and I cannot give you a clear picture, but we have to resolve a lot of things around in Sivan.

Thank you. The next question comes from Bastian Signowitz with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Yeah, thanks for taking my follow-up. So I'm wondering whether you could maybe give us a little bit more color on the current EBITDA loss run rate, which you're facing in the entire European complex, including the flats business roll down, and maybe also distribution on a fourth quarter run rate basis relative to the 95 million EBITDA. Is there just a little bit more color you could give us and maybe related to that, I guess you've already been going through a very big change with the new working agreement in Europe last year. So other than just improving volumes, which is basically more a function of the market, what is really left in your hands to improve performance in those assets? And when and where would you draw a red line if things in Europe actually don't improve and the business keeps draining cash?

Well, the comparison obviously is difficult with the starting point of 2024. Obviously, more or less half of the year, the plant has been affected by that. So then it has been a gradually start up of the operations in the second semester, as previously has been stated. The new business model, what is more oriented is increase the presence in final customers, increase the presence in high added value products, be less depending on competing with the imports, more in the commodity grades. And this is the strategy. When we were implementing this strategy, it's clear that we were stopped by the strike, and then several orders, several of these introductions, the new customers were postponed. When we started operation in the second semester, part of that material was obviously not available, and consequently we need to adjust production, and this is something that gradually shall be recovering during this year. We are putting all our efforts to train the plant back on profits. Being profitable in Europe at this time is really difficult, but almost every player, and I think you who follow the results of the industry at this time with the actual prices in Europe, with the With the low demand and low reactivation of demand and with the imports still taking some place, it's very, very difficult to be profitable in this business. Having said that, we are in the way of turning it around, and we think gradually for the coming months we shall start. to probably be profitable in the actual business condition on a monthly basis, maybe prior to the summer we could start turning it around. But this is obviously something that still we are not touching, and we are subject to several conditions. The green shots in Europe still are not there. Let's see what comes after more or less the market has been shaking, as there are in the last years. in the last six weeks with all the issues taking place with the barriers, duties, and so on. So it's not so easy to define when we are normalizing a profit contribution in Atherinos Europa, but in the actual basis, with the actual price of the market, We hope that finally, before the summer, we may start seeing some monthly profit contribution. But it still is very early to define which is going to be the figure for the accumulated year. We are on the trend, but still we need to wait a bit more.

Thank you. The next question comes from Dominic O'Kane with JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Hello. I have two follow-up questions. I will ask them together. So my first question is, apologies if I missed it, but could you maybe just clarify what your group CAPEX guidance is for 2025? And my second question is, when you made the acquisition of Haynes a year ago, there was some discussion about or certainly questions regarding the an appropriate listing jurisdiction. And I guess just 12 months on, given the composition of your register, given the composition of your earnings profile, is the listing jurisdiction something that's more actively under consideration from the executive management and the board? Thank you.

Okay, about the CAPEX. Okay, we have mentioned two things during our presentation. One is the CAPEX of 2024. The CAPEX of 2024 has been 200 million when we expected 260. Okay, that difference, of course, is going to come on 2025. So for 2025, just considering these differences, let's say delay on the capex that we have had this year plus that we are an expansion plan we expect the capex around more than 300 million so it would it can be on the rates between 300 350.

Sorry, just to add something. We have delayed some capex, but it's not because we have postponed the capex. It's just because with the strike we had to, of course, delay some of the maintenance capex that we had planned for the Spanish plant. And also the rest is in time and in budget. So we are not postponing anything. It's just that payments have gone to January and February just for the payment terms of the suppliers.

Regarding the issue of the listing, first of all, I think it's very clear in our case. We are mostly an American company, an American group, because more than 50% of our sales take place in North America, and the majority of our profits also come from the States. So we are an American company, but we are trading in Europe. This means that, unfortunately, as the market basis is actually in the stock market, we are trading at low multiples compared with our American colleagues, which is probably an unfair position. Having said that, probably we feel more optimistic that each time this is better appreciated from the market. So clearly, in terms of share price evolution, probably there are not so many cases today of an American company trading at a European multiple. So we consider... Obviously that we are in that regard attractive and probably as a consequence of that we understand that our trade position has been more favorable than that one of the other players more exposed to Europe. So where we understand we should be better valued is where we are stronger, which is America. And on that basis, we are also expanding more in America in both stainless and in HP performance alloys, which is the markets in which actually being more profitable, we have a much more warranty return of our investments. So this is the strategy of the group. There is nothing... decided more than that, but what's more or less logical to think is that if this situation remains, if there is such a gap between the valuation multiples of European companies compared with the American ones, we should be in a proper way in some years from now to approaching the capital markets in the States. This is a possibility that always shall be there. On the time being, what we need is to work, obviously, to integrate Heinz, to integrate both companies in the HPA, and we are working hard on that. We are trying also to make the best in the integration also with North American Steelers, and that possibility shall be there, but it still has not been decided. So if the gap remains for a long period, maybe some listing or partial listing of an entity in America could take place, or maybe not. This is something that still our board has not decided, but all the movements are for having also that possibility more or less available. if such a gap between the valuations in both markets remains. But we shall be, obviously, monitoring that.

I think that even being a Spanish company or a multinational group based in Spain, when we have to present our CAPEX, because we don't have an unlimited amount of money available for this CAPEX, we need to choose. We need to choose, and normally the... Normally what we see is what is more profitable for the company, which payback is better. And now the good paybacks, the good investments are in the United States. But please let us work in the integration. We have a very hard time. work in the integration side. We have to integrate Haines, explore all the synergies, develop the expansion plans in NAS, and in Haines, and in VDM, and then we'll be in a good situation to do what is better for our shareholders.

Thank you. Our final question today comes from Maxime Cotter with OdoBHF. Please go ahead.

So thanks again for taking my follow-up. So when I look at your balance sheet, I can see a lot of cash, more than 1.2 billion euros, actually, despite the hands acquisition. And this will be further reinforced by the price complement on Baru you will receive in Q2. So how are you going to tackle this idle cash position? Is it your priority to pay down gross debt more quickly? Or do you see room for further strategic initiatives or shareholder returns? So that would be my first question. And the second is on the synergies from... from Heinz and from the VDM expansion plan? I know they are quite back and loaded, but could we see a first contribution from this energy already in 2025? And if so, by how much?

Well, as I said before, our financial strength was supported by a strong cash position. and a competitive debt in Europe. So consequently, we are not struggling by the cost of our debt, and this is something that is not concerning us. And in addition, we are actually in an ambitious expansion plan. At the same time, we are expanding North American stainless operations, and this is a new production that shall be in place starting in 2025 and in 2026. We are in the also expansion phase of BDM that should provide higher volumes. Obviously also we are in the expansion taking place after the acquisition of Heinz, 200 million. So there is a lot of projects in place for the coming future. On that basis, I don't think that it's probable to think that we shall use our cash for reducing the financing debt. What we need is keeping the strength for being comfortable at whatever part of the cycle in keeping our capex expansion, and that cash is part of our comfort. And that cash, obviously, and that strategy was so successful that allowed us to make the Haines acquisition not needing to access the capital markets for it. So on that basis, we remain, as always, very prudent. And in this regard, our priority is putting in place all the investments. As Bernardo mentioned before, we are glad that we are able to invest in the difficult part of the cycle for taking the best advantages when the market improves, and we shall be there. In this time, we do not consider to reduce our cash position. We think it's more or less the proper balance for the leverage and the competitive leverage we are having in Spain. In Europe, sorry.

Regarding synergies with Heinz, remember that we acquired Heinz in November. We only could open our books in November, so now we have been checking And comparing the studies in the synergies side, we have a clear number now. We have to define how can we implement these synergies, and we need to make the plan. Still, we don't have the plan. But as some of these synergies will need the new investments, do not expect a big amount of synergies within 2025. Of course, you know, the most evident is when you have the reduction of costs, for example, for delisting hands in the United States that have a cost, or sharing some of our systems, or using our purchasing capacity in the group. That will come in very easily, but for the more sophisticated scenarios, like for example the commercial side, that will need certification from all the different routines of production, we will need to enter in different customers, these things that will need at least one year to be developed, and everything related with the capex will need three years. So do not expect a big amount of money next year. Still, we haven't defined it, but that will come. I think this is the last question, so thank you very much for attending this presentation. Very happy to be here. I'm very excited with our future and our strategy. I hope that we have been able to transmit our feeling to you. Thank you very much.