Atos Origin Sa

ladies and gentlemen welcome to the autos group third quarter 2025 performance the call will be structured in two parts first a presentation by the autos group management team represented by philippe sal chairman and ceo and jacques francois de prest cfo afterwards there will be a q a session during this session you may only ask question by telephone by dialing pound key 5 on your telephone keypad to enter the queue i will now hand over to the management team gentlemen please go ahead

Thank you, operator. Good morning, everybody. Good afternoon for some of you in Asia. So we're going to do a presentation, and then after that, of course, taking all the questions you have. I'm, of course, together with Jacques Francois, the CFO of the group, and Marie, the ER of the group. So let's start with the first slide. So we're going to go on. One more. Okay, perfect. So in Q3, first, the performance is in line, I would say, with the full-year profitability and cash trajectory. I think it's very important. I understand, in fact, that probably the team has the credit and cash and cost. And, of course, we are spending quite a lot of time, I would say, on the top line, and I will give you more info during this call. The second is on bottom left. The Genesis plan is in motion to restore the strong financial performance. I just want to highlight that Genesis is a two-part project for me. The first one is the project on cost. And as you see, we are doing the job. We will probably execute Genesis on this one by mid-26. We estimate that probably in 18 months, we will have finished probably the job, except one or two countries where, of course, it's a little bit slower because it takes more time. I would say to the negotiations with the unions and you can imagine what countries are there. The second part of the Genesys plan that is very important is the top line. So Genesys is reducing costs and also I would say it's restarting the growth engine. And of course I would say the cost takes roughly 18 months. The restart of the engine growth is roughly a two-year effort. So we have done a lot of job I would say in 2025. reshuffle completely the organization, change a lot of people in the growth engine. And the idea, of course, is to start to produce results in 26. And of course, accelerating after that the top line in 27 and 28 according to our plan. And last, management team. So as you have seen, the top 20 is complete. The top 200 is almost complete. It will be probably by the end of the year. So I would say that the First, the circle and the second one will be, I would say, in force to execute, of course, HGDC in 26 and going forward. If we go to the next slide, some key numbers. So the order entry, 1.3 billion, 66%. In fact, it's more 70 plus on NATO's brand. It's slower in Eviden and mainly on HPC. Just as a comment, two things. The first one is that the book to build in Q3 is always low. It's roughly 70 to 80 when you look, for example, at our numbers for the last years. And secondly, it's very important that you understand that discipline is important. Discipline in cost, discipline also in the portfolio, in the top line. And for example, I have decided not to renew some contracts. And by doing that, I would say we have lowered, I would say, the book to build. I can give you just one example. There was a big contract in the US. If I could have re-signed this, it's a book-to-bill roughly 300 million plus, so it's roughly a 20% rate. I would have increased, I would say, the book-to-bill by 20 points, but the margin was too low, and we decided, I would say, to stop the negotiation. So it's very important to understand, of course, that the discipline on the portfolio lowers the book-to-bill on the short term. And of course, lower the revenues as we, of course, try to stop as many as possible contracts where we think it's impossible, I would say, to renegotiate the price with the customers. So revenue, it's 2 billion. It's roughly minus 10 versus last year. You have seen that in Eviden, we are in a growing pattern. And in fact, we are decreasing with Atos. Also, this one, I can give you one number on the discipline. 80% of the decrease in Atos, so 8-0, comes from the contract stop. So I would say we are managing the top line, and that's why it doesn't hurt, in fact, the profitability, because we are stopping contracts with roughly 0% margin. Important to know that roughly 5% of our turnover is what we call black contracts, so contracts with roughly zero profitability, and roughly 15%, it's red contracts, it's contracts between 5% and 15%. So roughly 20%, 1.5 billion plus, are contracts where right now I would say we have strong actions either to renegotiate to, I would say, change the delivery to beef up the margin or stop, I would say, the revenues. Net change in cash is roughly minus 38 million. And in fact, we are not stopping Genesys. So it's not because we are trying, I would say, to slow down the Genesys. It's just because, in fact, we are also doing a lot of actions, I would say, to decrease, for example, the accounts receivable, so to decrease the DSO. The teams are, I would say, in place to make sure that we pay faster. It's very important and it's, of course, on a recurring basis again. And then the liquidity, we still have 1.8 billion in cash, so I would say we are quite confident, of course, that everything is okay in terms of, I would say, liquidity for the plan and, of course, to pay, I would say, the genesis rammed on in terms of cost. Next slide, please. Commercial strategy, so as I said, the flip side of the decrease of cost is the increase of the top line. We are still aiming, I would say, to have zero plus growth in the course of next year. So I would say probably in Q3 this year, we are at the bottom for Atos in terms of revenues, we'll see. And then we have done a lot of things. So first, the commercial pipeline is gaining momentum. In fact, we have targeted the 100 accounts, the top 100 accounts of Atos. Just for information, it's roughly two-thirds of the revenues. And then for each CEP, so client executive partner of this account, they have now a plan, a three-year plan, where they look at the opportunities, I would say, in their own account and opportunities. Remember that during the capital market day, we say we have roughly 1.6 business lines per account. And the idea, of course, is to go at two, three for some of the accounts. So there was a lot of opportunities that have emerged, I would say, from this work, and it has been done, in fact, during the summer. Cross-sell, as I say again, increasing for a given customer, of course, the different, I would say, capabilities of the group, and, of course, a good traction also in cloud and cyber. We are, in the book to read, in fact, above 100, and we see that there is more and more interest, especially, I would say, also in Europe, of course, with the private cloud. And of course, I would say the sovereignty subject. You have below some contracts renewal and win. I'm not going to go in detail on this one. Next slide. The execution of Genesys. So in terms of people, we do also the AI, I would say, transformation. Of course, it's going to touch the delivery. It's going to touch, I would say, the service offerings that we're going to, I would say, propose to our clients. And it's going also to touch the back office Of Atos, you can see that we have also trained a lot of our project managers and also of our engineers in the data and AI space. Portfolio review is the number of countries, so we close six additional countries. When we say we close, there is no more commercial activity. Sometimes we still have, I would say, a company there, so let's say a juridical structure that will close, of course, but it takes sometimes more time, I would say, than I would say closing the business. And as I said, in the portfolio, we are resetting, I would say, the base of the portfolio. When I say resetting, it's really to shave the low profitability contracts. Remember, 20% of my portfolio is not at the rate of profitability. And if you see, for example, the signed contracts that we have for the first nine months of Atos, the margin is roughly four points above, I would say, the margin that I have on my P&L. So it means that the discipline is working, and for sure I would say we are probably more selective in terms of, I would say, business increase. And then delivery and G&A, we say this one is really going very well. The billability is stable, but I would say during Q3 it's normal because with the holidays there is an effect, of course, on this ratio. You will see probably an increase, in fact, in Q4, so we continue, I would say, increase this ratio and heading i would say to the 85 in the course of 26 and in terms of restructuring as you have seen we have a reduction of again 2600 people so we are now 67 in the company we spend roughly 90 million and nine zero of restructuring in terms of cash and we launch also a social plan in france in september to continue so we are i would say when i look at the direct people We have probably done roughly three quarter of the job by the end of 25. And in terms of indirect, we will have complete the job in five by the end of 25. So we are almost complete. And as I say, we will finish the job on direct people in the course of 26. Most of it will be done in H1. Next slide. This is the workforce. As I say, we are now 67 in the company. It will continue to slide. Remember that with the HPC, roughly 2,500 people will leave. And with the countries exit, it's probably several thousand also that will be taken off by the end of the year. So we still have some countries are going to close, in fact, in Q4 that will have a big impact. The one that we have closed, in fact, in Q3 are very small in terms of number of people. Next slide, please. So if I go on the revenue performance, I would say GEO by GEO. So let's go first on ATOS. So this is, I would say, the bridge between Q3, pro-pharma Q3 without the scope. Remember that we have sold the world grid last year, that we have also foreign exchange, eating, I would say, the top line, mainly, in fact, in the UK and the US, but also, for example, in Brazil. So I would say the pro-pharma is 2.2 billion. And as I say, organic decrease was roughly minus 200. And in fact, 80% of this, and in fact, it's more than 233 because it's mainly on ATOS, 80%, so it's roughly close to 300 million, 250 to 300 million comes from a contract that we have decided not to renew. Revenues is roughly 2 billion this quarter. And as I say, we maneuver in the 2 billion area, I would say, per quarter, plus or minus, of course, it depends on the quarter. And that's why we have gathered that we should, I would say, do 2 billion plus again in Q4 to be roughly at 8 billion plus at the end of the year. Next slide. So this is, I would say, the split between Atos and Eviden. And then go to the next slide, I would say, geo by geo. So you have, I would say, more color, I would say, by geo. So in Germany, I would say, contract type down is very important. There are contracts that we have decided to stop with a very low margin. Just for information, the OEM in fact in Germany will be positive for the first time in many years this year. And in fact for also the GEO, we call this GEO GACE, which is Germany, Austria and Central Europe. And next year we will probably triple, I would say, the profitability. So we have, I would say, we will see a lot of impacts of what we are doing in the course of 2025. Next, the GEO, we have North America, bigger decrease also with contracts exist. Again, I would say for some of, I would say probably U.S. have been hit, I would say, hardly on the financial restructuring in 24. That's probably the GEO that has suffered the most, I would say, from the situation in 24. And we have quite a good traction right now and probably restarting, I would say, to go in the course of 26. Next, the GEO. France also has suffered, I would say, from the situation in 2024, but we have also reduced the scope, I would say, in some low-margin contracts. And remember also that in France, with the financial instability coming from the country, this time not from Atos, the social, the public sector, in fact, public and defense, it's a big sector for us, 30% plus, has suffered, in fact, with no budget in the beginning of 25. And in fact, it has, I would say, delayed some contracts that we had. Next, the geo. UK and Ireland is like the US also. First, it has suffered from, I would say, the financial situation on 24. BPO contracts were there, so we stopped a lot of BPO contracts. And there is one, in fact, the digital workplace of people, I would say that was a big one, losing money. As I said, we have roughly two contracts in BPO going forward with a given size. It's roughly 30 million plus for each contract, still losing money in 2025. And we are, I would say, trying to be roughly cash neutral by 2027. One of them will be probably stopped by that time. Next to GEO, international markets, again, you are first comparable with the Olympics, of course, because, in fact, the major event is in this GEO and it's also in Spain, and Spain is part of international markets. And we have also some contracts done, in fact, in APAC and Switzerland. Now for Benelux, that's the one that is probably, let's say, resisting the most. We still have, I would say, some contract randoms, but we have a good traction right now in the pipe, and we have quite, I would say, good opportunities right now with Europe, with the European Commission, in fact. Okay, and then we have probably Eviden. So as I say, Eviden, this quarter, in fact, we have the Jupiter. But remember also that without Jupiter, in fact, we had a lot of also revenues that have been pushed to Q4. So, in fact, Jupiter was a good news, but we had also some other news that, in fact, is a mixed quarter for Eviden. And we still have, I would say, we still expect a strong quarter, in fact, in Q4. I think that's it for the, I would say, the revenues per GEO. If we go to the next slide, then I will give the floor to Jacques-François on the liquidity position.

Thank you very much, Philippe. Hi, everybody. As a reminder, the publication of our quarterly liquidity position is part of the regular reporting requirements, which were defined and agreed with the group's financial creditors. So the certificates have been posted yesterday night on our website. Our liquidity position remains strong at the end of September, thanks to limited estimated cash consumption over the summer. In Q3, the net change in cash is estimated at approximately minus 38 million euro, which includes the minus 87 million euro related to restructuring over the quarter. This figure is reported, of course, unlike previous quarters, without any use of accounts receivable factoring or specific optimization on trade payables. That number also reflects the results before the estimated impact of exchange rate fluctuations, which amount to approximately plus 11 million euros over the quarter. As a result, as of September 30th, Atos Group's liquidity is estimated at 1 billion 769 million euros compared to 1.804 million euros at the end of June 2025. This is more than 1.1 billion above the minimum requirement of 600 million euros which is set in our credit documentation. All right, thank you. With that, I will now hand back the mic to Philippe for the outlook.

Thank you. So if we go on the next slide, 25, so we have, let's say, put a guidance at 8 billion plus. Remember that versus the guidance that we had in May, 8.5 billion, we have roughly 200 million coming from FX. So in fact, the 8.5 was more 8.3. We will finish between probably 8 and 8.1. And most of the 200 that you will see is coming from low margin contracts. And that's why I would say it doesn't arm the profitability for this year. As you then imagine, of course, then we continue to guide at 340 million in EBIT, which means that margin will be above 4%, 4.1 or 4.2. And then the net change in cash will be better than 350. We don't try, I would say, to again push back Genesis to 26. So if we, I would say we are in the mindset of, I would say, doing the most that we can do in the course of 25. So it's possible that we will end probably between 300 million and 350 because we have also a lot of exits coming in Q4. In 26, we have started to review the budget already. So when I look at the bottom up coming from the different NGOs, we are still looking on organic growth. And we will guide, of course, what kind of organic growth in March next year. So please be patient. But I would say there is some confidence from the teams. It's not only coming, I would say, from Jacques-Francois and myself. And then still continue to guide that, in fact, with the organic growth, much better, of course, EBIT, because we're going to have the results of the Genesis 25 in the EBIT of 26. We will have a positive, so zero plus, I would say, change in cash. And, of course, this is before debt repayment if we, of course, refinance the debt in the course of 26 and, of course, any M&A impact. M&A, I said yesterday that if we restart, it will be probably after the summer, so starting in September 26. But I would say the goal for us is to restart M&A if there are interesting targets for us. And then we continue to, I would say, be confident in the 2028 figures. I would say guidelines also that we have given in May during the CMD. Still looking at 8.5 to 9 billion. So it means that we will accelerate the top line in the course of 27 and 28. And definitely, I would say the growth engine will be in place. I think it will lead, I would say, results. Remember that between 23 and 25, we will have lost probably 2 billion of sales. And definitely, there are contracts in 27 that will come back that I will probably regain. Because in fact, we lost them in 24. And some of our customers are not happy. So I definitely think that Atos has a card to play. And that's why I think we can outpace probably the market growth. Operating margin, we still, I would say, look at 10%. We have given, I would say, 9% to 10%. Remember that with Genesys, I have the 9% margin in my hands. And then going, I would say, from 9% to 10%, of course, it will be with the top line and with profitable growth again. Remember, that's exactly what we are looking at. The average right now margin that we have signed for the first nine months of 25 is around 24%, which is far enough, I would say, to yield this 10% margin. Leverage ratio, of course, we will continue to deleverage. We will have a positive cash, of course, in 27 and 28. M&A, of course, will be a cash out, but I would say it doesn't change the fact that the leverage ratio will decrease. And we will have a BB, I would say, profile, I would say, in the course of 28. And I would say probably an investment grade in the course of 28 or 29, we see, of course, with the rating agencies. But I would say with all the job that we have done in 25, with the fact that we have been in the company almost one year, we are very confident, and I'm very confident, I would say on the path for 26, 28. Next slide. And I think it's all for this morning in terms of presentation. So we are ready, I would say, to take any questions. Operator, I give you the floor.

If you wish to ask a question, you may only ask question by telephone by dialing pound key 5 on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key 6 on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Frederick Bolan from BOFA. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning. Thank you very much for taking the question. First, the question around demand, if you can discuss a little bit demand and orders, how we can tie your book-to-bill ratio with your revenue growth ambitions for next year. I think your message before was the expectation of a book-to-bill to get close to 100% by the end of this year. You seem to be a bit more prudent now. Is it all down to you being more selective, or there's also some kind of more difficult demand environment? And then secondly around, if I can ask a second question around your black and red contracts, the 20% is this as of Q3, it's still in the pipeline today in terms of weight of those contracts. And the plan here is more to try to fix them from a margin standpoint, exit, upsell. I mean, what's the kind of strategy on those? Thank you.

Yeah. So the book-to-bill, yes, will be above 100%, I would say, the threshold of 100 in Q4 for sure. And we are still aiming, let's say, from 90 to 100 on a full-year basis. There are big contracts we are renegotiating, two of them, in fact, that, of course, can push, I would say, the book-to-bill to 100. But, of course, we are in the negotiation with them. There is one in the U.S. that will be in the U.S. specifically, in fact, next week for that. The US team also from our customers will be in France in November, and the second one is in Europe. So yes, first, there have been also some contracts that we should have signed in Q3 that have slided to Q4, but that's life. It doesn't change, I would say, the 26th review for that. And that's why probably I would say also the book-to-bid has been quite low, let's say, this quarter for Q3. But we still have, I would say, we know we have a very strong commercial activity in Q4 like last year. And there will be probably a lot of, I would say, good news coming in the coming weeks now. Black and red, when I say 20%, in fact, it's today at the end of August. So roughly, and in fact, in September, I'm not sure that it's going to change a lot. So as I say, roughly 5% and 15%. It was more last year. Definitely, I would say the black accounts. In fact, when I say black accounts, remember it's the accounts with a margin below five. There are two big accounts, well, two really, let's say cash, let's say negative accounts, the two BPO in the UK. One is roughly burning roughly 10 million cash this year, the other around 40 million, so it's 50 million, of course, of cash. Next year it will be less. The rest, in fact, is a lot of small accounts with, I would say, margin that is close to zero. And some are big, but I would say that not that many. There is only one, in fact, that in the US that we decided to stop. And this, of course, will continue to, I would say, to shrink in the course of 26. We have taken a lot of actions on this contract. So my main focus in 25 was on the black accounts. We are almost done, I would say, so they will be, I would say, less in terms of revenues in the course of 26. And now we are looking at the red accounts between 5 and 15%, that of course is arming for me the profitability, probably the one between 5 and 10 for sure, because the margin of next year will be above 5. And then we are now, I would say, trying to do so. For these accounts, there are three possibilities for us. The first one, we renegotiate the price. Sometimes, of course, it's difficult for some customers because they don't understand why we have been serving them for years. And then suddenly we say, sorry, but the margin is not at the right level and we need to increase price. So that's why when it's not possible, of course, we stop the contract. The second one, of course, we work on the delivery process. And that's why we can beef up the margin with AI, with different, I would say, with more shoring. It depends. I would say it's a contract by contract. All the situations, I would say, are very different, let's say, contracts by contracts and geo by geo, of course. And the third possibility is, of course, to stop the contract. If we see that there is no possibility for us, I would say, to beef up the margin or renegotiate, then I prefer, I would say, to stop. And with some customers, they understand the rationale. They understand that we cannot continue, I would say, with that level of margin. I don't know if it answers your question.

The next question comes from Nicholas David from AutoBHF. Please go ahead.

Yes. Good morning, Philippe. Good morning, Pierre-Francois. Thank you for the question and congrats for the very good execution on the bottom line. Just talking about top line first, so you expect above $8 billion revenue, which seems to imply on an organic basis a negative minus 5% in Q4. It looks like if we exclude HPC business, Jupiter contract, it was minus 20 in Q3. So it's a nice improvement. We see that comps will help, definitely. But what is going to drive the improvement beyond comps? Is it evident, as you stated, Philippe, already? Or you also mentioned in the US, maybe. So any color would be helpful. And my second question is regarding 2026. If the growth recovery doesn't happen as good as you are expecting, do you have some leeway in terms of execution of the restructuring plan to go faster in order to deliver on your EBIT ambition, even if you are a bit lower in terms of top line, a bit like this year, actually? That would be my two questions.

That's a good question. I will take first this one. So yes, there is a Genesis 2 in place if something happens in the course of next year. So remember Genesis in terms of costs is roughly $650 million. We have probably around $300 million already in the P&L this year, a little bit less. There will be probably, I would say, part of it of course in the course of next year at $200 million probably. And then we can accelerate some of the actions first. So there are some actions we can take. We have already anticipated it. So I would say the idea, of course, is that if there is no growth next year, of course it's not the case, we will protect the bottom line again, exactly what we have done in fact this year. So I would say for the profitability cash, there is no, I'm not very, I would say, anxious about the 26th. And as you know, and you can imagine, I would say the focus I have now is really on the growth. So I spend every week on this topic because it's very important that we sign on projects. Remember also that we have what we call the low, low contract, small contracts and it's contracts and below a 3 million. It's a, it's a big chunk in fact of our portfolio. And this is usually contracts with a, Lower, I would say, duration. So that's the one also where we are spending a lot of time to make sure also that there will be also revenues in the course of next year. So that's why don't be afraid because the book-to-bill is below 100. It doesn't mean we're not going to grow next year. Because, of course, I would say the smaller contracts also, we have a traction also in this in many GEOs. And it will yield, I would say, some results in the course of 26. Yes, we're going to protect 26 margin. And when we're going to guide, in fact, in March, the guidance for me is almost a given. I'm not very skeptical on the EBIT we're going to deliver, in fact, in the course of 26, whatever is the top line. And I would say the main focus and all the team know is really, I would say, understands that we need to deliver growth. The incentives, in fact, on the top 20 and top 200, we change, in fact, the bonus One third of their, I would say, bonus will be also on the organic growth and book to build. So I would say that there is a big incentive, I would say, to restart this path of growth in the course of 26. And of course, for Q4, the comps are, of course, better. Because I think last year, the turnover was around 2.1 billion. memory is good i'm not sure but probably jack francois has the number uh so for sure i would say we we we have a better uh comparison of course because the turnover was lower last year remember of course that in this turnover you have a fixed effects and you have again work grid again in the course of q4 ratio yeah i don't know if you have the number on the q4 2.1

As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, you may only ask question by telephone by dialing pound key 5 on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. The next question comes from Laurent Dorr from Kepler-Chivroux. Please go ahead.

Yes, thank you. Good morning, gentlemen. I have three questions. The first is, if you could come back on the contract, you are not renewing because you're not managing to bring them back to profitable. What are the customers doing when you don't renew? Are they re-insourcing or do you have other players that have better cost base than yours that are taking those deals? The second one is on the cost. in 2026. I was just wondering when you look at 2026 versus 2025, how much additional savings from the restructuring plan have you already secured, or will you have secured by the end of this year? And on the third question, on the return to positive growth, do you expect this to happen in the first half of next year, or is 2026 expected to be back-ended? Thank you.

Yeah. So first, for the low margin, that's a good question. We see some aggressiveness, I would say, from the competition to take some of our contracts. We are more than happy to take, I would say, that they take them. So no, it's not necessary that they insource the business. It's true for some of them. For example, in Germany, there have been one or two clients insourcing. In APAC also, for some banks, they have decided, I would say, to re-internalize, no problem. But most of it, I would say, for example, the big one we have lost, we have decided, I would say, to lose in the U.S., a digital workplace contract. It was against the competition. I'm not sure that the competition has a better cost base than us because, for example, in the U.S., we offshore most of our business. But I would say some of our competitors, And you know that I would say we don't work with the federal state, so I would say we are not, let's say, harmed like probably some of my competitors. They are looking, I would say, to cope with the revenue decrease and probably trying to take some share. I don't understand exactly how they're going to manage some of the contracts we have lost, but it's okay. We will see. For the cost 26, as I said, we have roughly – The run rate is around 450, so it means we have roughly 300 million of, I would say, the results of Genesys in the P&L this year, which means that, in fact, if we have not done a Genesys, we would be, I would say, at zero EBIT, and probably with the situation of the company. And you have at least 150 million coming, I would say, that is already coming in the course of 26 with the results, I would say, with the actions of 25. So at least I would say the 340 yields to close to 500 million, a little bit less. And I don't remember your third question. Sorry. If it's back loaded. That's a good question. I don't know yet because I need to review. So we have right now the budget is almost done for 26. I have the numbers for the year. I don't have the numbers by quarter, so give me a little bit more time before I can answer. The answer for me is that my view is that, of course, the comps will be better quarter by quarter. So it's probably an acceleration in H2 versus H1. That's my view.

So on the second question, number you shared, 300 and over 150, is the cost you have in your P&L. I think if I understand right, I was just thinking about the savings.

uh for 2020. i'm not sure yeah yeah exactly the savings is 400 million 450 plus 300 million savings already in the pnl this year so that's why we have been able i would say to show a 300 million plus ebit this year and 150 coming already i would say in the pnl of the savings coming i would say in the pnl of 26 of course we have increasing cost there is a lot of things coming of course in the pnl but i would say the The results of the Genesis in 2025 gives already 150 million of savings already, I would say, for 2026. And you see, for example, in Germany, as I say, we're going to triple the profitability. It comes from the plan that we are exiting, I would say, putting in Q4. There is a big 1,000 people, in fact, exiting in Q4 in Germany. And part of it, in fact, in Q4, some of them, in fact, in the course of 2026. I think I already said that in Germany it will give roughly 100 million of savings. So part of these savings, roughly 60 million plus, will come already, in fact, in place for next year.

Thank you.

And just for information, the Q4, so I had the question, the Q4 last year was 1.9 billion without, I would say, the FX and the And 1.945 exactly without FX and world grade. So a little bit below 2 billion.

The next question comes from Sam Morton from Invesco. Please go ahead.

Hi, just a couple of questions, please. So firstly, I think you mentioned refinancing during 2026. I guess the liquidity position is very short and the free cash flow is coming in quite nicely. can you talk about what that refinancing looks like and then secondly the operating margins obviously coming in ahead uh for this year but no change to the medium-term outlook i'm just wondering um what would give you the influence to change the medium-term outlook on the operating margin thanks okay so first refinancing it's a will it's too soon for me to say if we

We'll be able to do it. I definitely think that after 25 results with the guidance, the fact that we will be cash flow positive, we have, I think, a window that is opening. We'll see. So I don't know yet if we will be able, I would say, to refinance, but definitely the 1L that is, of course, at 13% plus, we want to refinance this instrument. uh we will have probably it's a it's a q2 next year or q3 it depends i would say on the window that will be open it will depend of course on the market conditions you know that better than me so we will come back probably uh in the earlier results of 25 because we will be prepared for that so we are preparing ourselves i would say to refinance and then of course if it's possible we'll do it if it's not possible then of course we will wait that's i would say we will be But I think what is very important is that the company will be ready. And then we will see, of course, what is the market really, I would say, to swallow in terms of, I would say, new debt versus old debt. The guidance. So, yes, of course, the 10%, 9%, 10% margin. So 4% plus this year. Next year, there will be a big jump again. I would say we are. And then, of course, it's more than between 4% and 10%. You have roughly... More than 3%, so it's roughly 7%. We'll see what kind of guidance we're going to give next year, but there will be a jump for sure in the course of next year because of the results of the Genesis in 2025. And then remember after that, that the growth coming on the top line will probably try to get, I would say, the cost a flattish plus. So, for example, if we go, let's say, by 4% in 2027, It gives probably 300 million plus in terms of sales. At 25 margin, it's roughly 75 million of OM. For us, it's roughly, I would say, a marginal increase. And as you can see, 75 million is roughly one point. So that's why I say it goes very fast, in fact, because we're going to master the cost and make sure, I would say, they will be flattish. And that's why the marginal growth also will bring, I would say, points in terms of EBIT margin. So the cost of genesis, the reduction of cost, will yield results, of course, in 25, 26, and 27. Most of it will be 25 and 26. There will be still, I would say, some improvements in the course of 27. And then the growth, we take the relay, I would say, in 27 and 28. That's exactly the way we can play, I would say, this 10% margin for 28. Thank you.

There are no more questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.

Okay, let's try once more. Any other questions? No? If not, thank you for your time. Thank you for your attention also. You are quite a lot of number of people at this call. We are very happy. I think as a key message, confidence is there and discipline. I think it's very important that you remember this, I would say, word, discipline for the top line, discipline for the cost. And definitely, I would say that for me, Atos is back. Have a good day and talk to you for the next release, which is March 6th for the full results of 25. But then we think there will be probably a publish in January with, of course, the revenues and also the liquidity position. So it will be in the course of January. Have a good day. Bye-bye.