Agfa-Gevaert NV

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the AGFA full year 2025 results conference call. For the first part of the conference call, the participants will be in listen-only mode. During the questions and answer session, participants are able to ask questions by dialing pound key five on their telephone keypad. I will now hand the conference over to Pascal Jouery, CEO. Please go ahead.

Hello, everyone. I'm sitting in Mortsel right now with Fiona Lam, our CFO, Vivian Dictus, our investment relationship manager, and the rest of the executive committee. I'm going to walk you through the Q4 and full year results for the group. My first message is indeed we had a quite strong Q4. I would like to remind everyone that we do have a strong seasonality in our business and that every year Q4 is by far the strongest quarter. But I realize that in 25, actually, we almost beat all records, because Q4 EBITDA is 2 thirds of the EBITDA of the year. So it's even more pronounced, I would say, than the years before. Also, second very positive point, positive cash flow performance in the quarter and in the year. uh so i'm gonna move the slide a bit indeed a positive performance of cash flow due to three elements i would say one is of course the management of the operations because the reduction of working capital was a strong computer the second was also i would say our management of liquidity because we are actually winding down our vendor loans in AXA, so loans that we have extended to customers. And number three, we have resolved the AXA photo case and received actually the reward for strong cash flow. These results are also coming, and I need to be very clear about it, but they're coming from a very stringent cash and cost management that we have amplified and accelerated actually in Q4. And that's also the reason why we are coming to you today with probably results that were slightly better than expected, I would say. so 39 million for the quarter i'm going to come back to a bit in details about the contribution of different businesses but overall as you've seen this is pretty much across the board that we are improving the results now If I turn briefly to the headlines of each business, I think healthcare IT, as you know, we are in a cloud transition. And being in a cloud transition is having a short-term impact. When I say short-term, it's really two to three years' impact on your top line and bottom line. I will come back to that. And in this context, what we are looking at is really The leading indicators, of course, and order intake has increased over the year by 14%. 187 million, this is the highest order intake ever for the business, and we are getting reports after reports. And more importantly, the cloud order intake has increased by 38%, which shows really the dynamics of the cloud transition to date. Cloud technology is about a third of global order intake of 25, but when you look sequentially, actually this trend is accelerating, because in 2004, for instance, it was up to 58%. Now, as you know, quarters are lumpy in terms of order intake. We shouldn't be looking at quarters too much in terms of order intake. But the trend behind is really 33% of cloud order intake, up from 27% in 2014. But we are seeing an acceleration. And also, I want to stress that we are winning the market. We are winning net new customers, 43% of order intake. So today, we are taking a share. market in the order intake, and that will translate to sales, especially when it's cloud, approximately a year after taking an order. So overall, pretty good performance in LCPI-T, I would say, in spite, by the way, of the adverse currency impact. We are operating mostly in dollars, and therefore, our translation impact is significant on the top line. bottom line. So that's where we are. CPC, clearly a very strong Q4, representing, by the way, 50% of the portfolio for this business. Across the board, I would say we have a strong Q4. All businesses are contributing to the growth, actually. I'll give you a bit more details. On radiology, I think the message here is, as you know, it's been particularly impacted by the strong decrease of film or medical film that we discussed over the past quarter. I think the message I want to pass is for the first time this year we have a positive idea. This is a reflection of the ramp-up of the savings, but also of the acceleration of our productivity plan in our main needs. product supply operations, but also go to market. So that's what we are seeing, along with, generally, what is the stronger the industry for, anyway, is the level for the field. Unfortunately, this year as well, our DR business was impacted by the fact that the end market for DR for the first time in many, many years has been strongly negative. And even if we are slightly outperforming the market, has a negative impact, of course, on our activities. So, in this backdrop, two things I would like to share further with you. First, as you've seen, and you've seen examples of this before, but it will continue in 26, of course, we are accelerating the plan to optimize our costs. First, we have accelerated the implementation of the current plan, and we have just actually concluded about 10 days ago, an agreement with our social partner of the plan part two, if you want, to work on additional measures that will put into effect as soon as April in this year. To continue to adjust the space of the film activities, not only in manufacturing, but also in other areas. I would like also to remind you that we have a new structure in place from the beginning of this year, and that we will operate and report in three business segments. No change for ICICI. I would continue to provide full results as we do today. However, the change is more on the industrial part of the company. Industrial solutions regroups to Rosangie. So it's going to be, I would say, a more direct read, also, of the performance for the company. And imaging and chemicals, we have a group all-film activities. We did it also for operational reasons, so we can manage this business a lot more asset-driven than market-driven, given the challenges that we're facing. And of course DR that remains a specific entity. We have a bit of a new testing indeed for DR that was announced a few months ago. Now let me walk you through the numbers before I turn to Fiona for more details. So top-line in Q4 still challenge to see the strategies, market decline, continues, I would say, unadapted, really, so the trend is really there. But we also have reduction of top-line for LCIC. We had a slightly smaller quarter than last year, but this is also the impact of two things, transition to cloud, to say it's less for the short term, more on the recurring basis, and also the impact of currency. Now, if you look at the EBITDA, you see a strong improvement over last year, mainly from health care, I would say, give or take a step level of magnitude of last year. and clearly also a quick management, as you can see, of off-cost and corporate costs, while radiology, we are closing the gap as compared to last year. Now, if we look at the full year, top line, same comment as for Q4, the top line comes from mainly the decrease in radiology and the currency impact for us in 1994. that we are an export-oriented group, and most of our business is actually two-thirds of our business is done outside of Europe, in different currencies. And you can see that this impacts the same comment for Alaskan IT. Now, if you look at the . We have a strongly negative impact of the film, while all the other businesses are contributing positively to the bottom line. I would say in a difficult background and context. There was not a lot of tailwinds for us in 25. So I'm going to turn to you, Fiona, to comment on the bridges and the cash and other financial reports.

Thank you, Pascal. So, a bit more insight on the adjusted EBITDA bridge. Indeed, we ended the full year with 11 million lower in adjusted EBITDA, but that is mainly coming from earlier sets, the 25 million radiology due to the volume decline, and also the savings program only started to take in the second half of the year a little bit, and a bit more in Q4. So if you see healthcare IT and DPC, they have been contributing positively. Healthcare, there is also a 5 million negative trade trade impact. A large part of that is due to healthcare IT. Because as you know, healthcare IT has a lot of US business, while the other business have global spreads of their currency. So you can see a large part that actually is related to healthcare IT as well. Otherwise, they would have been performing much better in the past. A part of this negative impact on radiology has been offset by a very strong strain and cost controls. You see in the CNA, we have delivered, and R&D also we have delivered, so that's ended at the end. We narrowed the gap up to $25 million to $11 million, so we could deliver $59 million for a big time. On the cash flow, next slide, here. On the cash flow, as we said, we actually have a very good year of free cash flow. We ended at 35 million positive, despite we lose actually 11 million adjusted EBITDA. In this, of course, it's actually helping on three elements. Very, very good working capital that contributed 36 million. Also, like Pascal already mentioned in the beginning, our customer lease financing portfolio, that's contributed also another $28 million. And we have the one off of our total $38 million. So these three big improvements are able to help us to continue to invest in the capex of $34 million. and also pay our legacy liability of the pension, which is high. At the same time, it also helps us to continue to transform and support the restructuring amounts in the non-recurrence issue, and to also have a cash out of $48 million for last year. So all in all, I think the improvement on working capital and upper finance strategy is the one that helps and continues to support the company's transformation and provided us a much better headroom with the free cash flow. Next slide, please. Associated with the free cash flow, you also see a nice, good, smooth movement, development of our net financial debt. You could also see here problem of 2024 end of the year, and it moved actually structurally down. So we ended at the end of 21 million net financial debt. Of course, we still have quite a large total debt in the banking, but also there you see the trend are all going down as well. So we also have ended our pension debt in the past and now coming down to $433 million. So this is also a good development trend. If we look at the revolving credit facility, we did at the end of the year draw $100 million, so out of the $180 million, we still have $80 million in the room. but we actually have a lot of cash in the bank, because a lot of cash came in at the end of the year. That's also why you see net financing, that is only 21 million. Following this, we confirmed that we have a good, sufficient headroom at the end of the year for all our government's compliance, which we have agreed to keep to the bank. The liquidity headroom $158 million. You can also see the leverage is much lower. Also, the interest cover has sufficient . And just the EBITDA is $41.8 million. So that's quite a good . Also, you see earlier slide already, the pension funds has been improved a lot from the status. Here is the four material countries, and you also see that 318 million, and now we are at 327 million. This mainly comes from benefits, payments, also we have a favorable year end ability measurement. In terms of 2026, we expect actually the cash out will be lower on the pension. We also expect the surface costs will decrease, mainly because of Belgian-German. We also see we would expect 8 million HD less contribution because of 2026 versus 2025. Here are some concrete numbers which I will not go through one by one, but you have seen them already. Sales deteriorated by 4.5% nominally. Part of that is due to a strange rate. If you look at the gross profit, that has reduced percentage-wise because of larger turnover, less fixed cost coverage. So therefore, you see, actually, due to radiology, we have less gross profit. Operating expenses has been contributing, like, it puts stringent cost control, and we are able to maintain, bring the total operating costs down according to more than what the top line increases. So you see the percentage has increased, improved, And that ends our adjusted EBIT 2025 versus 2024 with a difference of nearly 4 million, if you look at the adjusted EBIT. After the adjusted EBIT, we had quite a significant amount of adjustment and retrenching expenses. Under this adjustment and restructuring basis of $58 million for 2025, there is also $38 million alpha photo that is positive impact. So you can see they contributed this positive impact as well. Another net finance cost as well, there is also a alpha photo $7 million interest benefit that's otherwise reported at POM versus 2025. All in all, this brings our results for the period of 71 million losses compared to 2 million of 2024. If you look at the restructuring adjustments, just coming back to the size of our photo, we also have an impairment of our radiology, especially on the spelum part of the business because of this time. Pre-cash flow, I think I already went through all of them, so you can see the numbers. I don't think we should repeat this because it's all in the ground as well. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Fiona. Very clear. Thanks very much. A bit of highlights on each of the businesses. So for healthcare IT, I'll repeat really the key messages very quickly. Cloud adoption is accelerating in North America and we are winning it. We are part of the winner in this moment. It's a significant event, so that it's a trigger for customers to, for our clients when they go to cloud to reopen their market, and we are successful in getting our share of this reopening, so I'm very pleased about it. In numbers, I'm not gonna repeat the numbers I already said, but I think really what you should take away is We are one of the few companies that are able to manage this cloud transition with excellent customer satisfaction. And I'm really proud because, you know, in this market, everybody is looking at the class market report. And this year, for the first time, we have actually in the three main components of the enterprise imaging system and software, we are best in class in the three categories, tax, the image generation itself, but also the viewer, meaning when you send an image to a radiologist, and the archiving part to store and make it part of the vehicle report to the person. I want to insist in that, because the Pax best-in-class actually was held by one company for 12 years, 12 years in a row. And now we are the top-ranked company in the U.S. market for Paxa. For the first time ever for AXA. And it's a good illustration of the progress that we have made in the market. You know, if you ask me what is different with AXA from the rest of the pack, I would say our ability to scale and to demonstrate effectively that we can provide our customers with a good execution and a good migration to the cloud. This is the reason why we're living in this market. It's a people's business, it's word of mouth, and it's customer satisfaction that does wonders for us, and our commercial pipeline, therefore, is increasing almost every day, I would say, with this kind of external recognition that are based on real customer satisfaction. So I'd like also to remind you, okay, that we're in the middle of a business revenue model change that we used to sell exclusively until 2024, almost project business, meaning where we invest a lot of funds and then we have a smaller SMSE. The cloud business and revenue model is different. The upfront fee is much less, but the revenues are recurring and are higher than your typical SMA model. And you could say two things to understand is when we have an order in the cloud, it will take between nine and 12 months to implement. There is, of course, a delay because between the time we take an order and the time we can recognize it and first and second compared to an in-prem project it's going to take five years to kind of be on balance in terms of revenue and margin recognition but at the end of the day the contract cloud richer is more stable and recurring, is embedding growth, because we have a system by which, of course, people pay directly on the consumption and not a fixed license. And therefore, this is short-term impacting negatively our revenue and our earnings, but long-term, totally transforming the business and much more recurring. So that's good news for us. And again, we're happy to say that we are taking our share in this market. So in numbers, this is the reason why also we've seen this supply decline. But I already went through it, so I'll be coming back to it. Just on the adjusted SBA, same comment. If we add constant currency, the increase would be actually much higher than what it is, about 12% higher. So it has an impact as well. Now, I'm going to go quickly. I'm going to switch to DPS. DPS was, well, let's face it. For us, it was a bit of a disappointing year because, you know, DPS is a business that normally grows double digits. We have been able to grow 12% for two years in a row. And this year, it was a bit of a setback because we had a softer equipment market in North America, especially during the first half of the year where there was a lot of confusion related by the trade barriers and the tariffs that probably delayed investments. And on top of that, we lost a bit of market share during this time in North America, which now I believe we will regain. But we didn't have, therefore, a good year. The incels are typically also double digits. They were double digits, actually, in volume, but less incels. It's a question of mix. We did a little bit more in OEM things, meaning things that we're also selling to third parties. Our captive things model, and it's also the development I would say of of things with larger volume and therefore lower selling prices for larger but nothing broken here. I think we will . We have sold our first to our beta customer. We have some but it's fair to say today that given the state of the packaging market where actually a lot of customers are restructuring today, where it takes a bit more time to penetrate, I would say, the packaging paper on board market. But we have, we believe, a solid pipeline that will see some success in 26. BHS partnership is going on. We have now a number of machines that are installed in the beta phase and customers. So again, it's more a mid to long-term play. this one, but it's very promising. Now, GHS, a very contrasted market. Europe is really stalling, as everybody knows. So we have a number of, for the time being, the activity of the European pipeline is quite low, although we are seeing on the horizon some improvement due to the adoption notably of the Red 3 directive. The U.S. market has shut down. I think it's fair to say that for the time being, we won't have any activity anymore. However, Asia and the Middle East are showing a very strong dilemma zone, especially India and China, and also some Middle East countries. And here, I would say we are present in India. We are taking our share of the market. China We are working on it. I cannot tell you that it's already done, but we do have opportunities over there. We are not losing market share. Zircon is really still the product of choice for alkaline producers. As you know, we have a new plant that we are already using, by the way, not fully, of course, but that we are already using and providing some benefits. But I think it's fair to say in 26, we are going to probably reach a time where it's going to be a trap for this market before getting back to the 27. So the Web 25 was still a modern growth over 24, but going forward, we're expecting 26 to be very much of a dry year. So if you look at the total DPC for the year, and I already commented on it, I would just like to say that it was a great institute for the growth engines, from top line, as you see. For the first time in many years, I would say, negative growth in DPS. But overall, the division blew, so thanks to the good performance of the industry as we look at performance we're pretty much well wanted to do for the division for the year with a significant significant improvement okay i'm gonna go quickly radiology i think i'm not gonna repeat everything but the medical film the story is about managing the sunset and taking those out as according to the market decline which we are still seeing, you know, according to expectations. VR, what I want to comment is, indeed, we have a bit of, this is the first time, I'm not sure ever, that the market has contracted, and significantly in the year, we were a bit surprised by such a strong contraction, 7% globally with some differences between regions. So we had, we... We are over-performing the market, but we are still in negative growth as well. So it was also not a very good year. So what we are doing is we are really with the new leader, François Verdot, we are doing really a new strategic roadmap, a geographic roadmap, while also taking care of our product portfolio We say be ready for when the market will turn around and go again. This is a message. And in X-Ray, I believe the innovation doesn't come anymore so much from the hardware. It's all AI and software-based innovation in this area. And this is an area where we have a lot of assets. so overall a very difficult year for uh people but you heard me say that it was difficult for us in the western european context to remove the cost as fast as we should in the backdrop of the market decrease however we are getting there and we got there and we'll continue But overall, you see 25 million drops of EBDA for radiology. So it still outweighs today the performance during this year. But we expect this to be slightly different in 2026, actually. Which is why I think now is probably the time to discuss the outlook for 2026. What do we see for SCIIT? Clearly we are expecting more of the same. We need progress and momentum on the ordering stage, accelerating transition to the cloud. So we are expecting to grow profitability in this context, given the mechanism of the cloud transition. But we are expecting to be successful in the market, market share, and to continue our move forward in terms of order intake. Industrial solutions, I think DPS will get back to growth in 2026, even if we remain in the market environment, which is probably not really super buoyant. We will make progress. We have reduced most of our range in 2025 and expect to reach the benefits of this also in 2026. And as I told you, the difficult point for us for 2026 will be clean hydrogen solutions. It's a business form. We have quite a bit built in the pipeline. We are getting through what I would call a trough in 2026 before a pickup in 2027. Regarding the imaging and clinicals, we are expecting a profitability improvement. For 2026, we will be back in the black in terms of EDD performance. But of course, we are also watching the situation of the market and also what happens in silver. I'm coming back because we have a specific slide on it and I would like to explain to you how we are managing the impact and what's going to be the impact. But overall, for energy and chemicals, our plan is to have a significant improvement overall for 26 and being a situation where we can get back with our cost measures what we lost during 25. 26, we are not going to repeat the performance of the positive free cash flow. Why? Because we still have a lot of destructuring and transformation costs that we need to do to adapt the firm to the firm's situation. And we expect, therefore, to have pressure on the free cash flow due to this. Now, let me walk you through the silver price increase. So I would like to remind everyone that The silver price increase that started actually in 2025, a little bit before. Just for your reference, five years ago, six years ago, silver was $20, $25 per hour. It was $45 average last year, but it shot up in December and January to peaks over $100. And now it's about $85. So it's a significant increase. And as you know, we are still today a significant consumer of silver. So the first message I would like to give you is most of the silver exposure goes, is from industrial film businesses for which we are covered. We have silver closings and automatic pass through to customers. So here there is no specific risk of not recovering silver. Part of the market where we are not covered is medical field, where we are not indexed. That's also the part that consumes the less silver. And here, we go for a classic, I would say, classical move, which is increasing prices to artists. For the time being, we are seeing this price increase being accepted in the market. The only question mark we might have is the mid to long-term impact of very high silver price on the demand. That could somehow further accelerate the shift away from film. That's a possibility that we are monitoring. But in terms of pass-through, the message I want to give is we are able to pass it through. Now, it will have an impact also on us. Actually, the way it works is we buy silver, more or less, in January to make our films. But the film, it's a long process. There are four steps, actually, in film production. It will be sold probably in April or May. The film will be made in January or slightly before that. It will be sold. It will take a few months until we get back the cash. So to make a long story short, we buy silver and cash out in January. And the first significant cash in we are going to get our customers with a new price is in June, July. So it will create a negative cash impact, working capital cash impact at the beginning of the year. And then we will get back throughout the year, but not fully during the year. However, so that's for cash, and rather than doing that, as you said, there is closing, of course, and we know exactly, we have modelized what the cash and EBITDA impact will be. EBITDA is reverse. Actually, we expect a positive EBITDA impact. The mechanism is, in fact, we will have stock reservations that will come a bit earlier before we sell the product. So to make a long story short for the year, positive EBITDA impact in this situation and negative cash flow impact. Now, the situation will be like this. Silver is stable. If silver would be extremely volatile, that could make a variation of what I just said, but not significant. The whole direction of travel will remain the same. But of course, if we have very strong and volatile yields of silver, it will have an impact. But we are monitoring that already for all scenarios, and we are managing that extremely closely. So I would like to end up as well in this context by taking a step back in the transformation journey between 2020 and 2025. You can see very clearly here the transformation of the growth between the mature businesses and the growth at GE. You can see the growth that we have over six years, and especially you can see the step up in profitability. So APA actually is a very different company without even of Erwin's position. And when you take a step back and look at it over the years, today, you can see that we have switched from the company that was a film company a few years back, six years ago, where most of the earnings were coming from film. Today, we are a different company, still in transition. But you can see that the profit of film has decreased very much. So it's a good illustration of the journey we are going through. Now, just a word also on sustainability, which I'm not forgetting. We have taken action to reduce, of course, CO2 emissions. I insist that these actions are, of course, sustainable actions, but they're also economically viable actions, because in doing so, we are also optimizing our energy-producing resources, and it's not the adversary of profit. On the contrary, it does also contribute to productivity. We are also engaging our workforce and stakeholders and improving our representation of gender. And we are also engaged in a significant safety program by which we have reduced our number of accidents over the past years. We have eliminated by two, in fact, by more than two over the past years. So it's a result I'm so very proud about. And I think we can say we are becoming more and more CSRB compliant, I would say, this year. And we also are ranking on the top 20% of the EcoVedis-rated companies. So it's a way to check if our practices are in line. I don't have the ambition to be in the top 1%. But I think we should definitely be part of this area. So overall and before, I will take questions from . Actually, I would like just to say in conclusion, well, as you know, we had a very difficult 25 due to the accelerated design of the film. And we took the corresponding measures, but of course, was a time lag between between the two we are continuing to implement and execute the strategic roadmap for our growth engines and during this phase of transition we have a very stringent cash and cost management of performance and as we have demonstrated before we could we could react quite strongly in this background. Transformation of the group will continue for the next year. The only thing that will be different, as I told you, is we're going to go through quite a difficult year from now. But all other trends regarding other businesses will remain pretty much the same. So now it's time to answer your questions. Thanks very much for your attention.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to ask a question, please dial 5 on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial 6 on your telephone keypad. Once again, if you wish to enter the queue, you can dial 5 on your telephone keypad. We have the first question coming from Guy Sips from KBC Security. Your line is now open. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Thank you, Pascal, for the presentation. And just a few additional questions. First, can you quantify how large the early 2026 working capital outflow from silver price inflation could be and clarify whether this cash drag risk tightening governance headroom during the restructuring peak?

Okay. I don't think we are ready to guide on a precise number for the silver cash flow, but the order of magnitude is, I mean, the uptick is tens of millions. But at the same time, Guy, we are working on small liquidity measure in the first half. First, continuing what we've been doing in 25, meaning the wind down of the loan portfolio. We have also a few other initiatives that will be part of the compensation for this. But, Fiona, you want to give more precision, maybe?

Yeah, maybe I can complement some of that. Yes, I think you are right. In Q1, we would have quite a large cash out for silver to fill the pipeline. But since it's a seasonality issue because of the timing of the charge out, that will come in also later on in Q2, Q3 and Q4. uh we have sufficient i would say sufficient other levers which would take care that this silver purchase which already take place in january uh would be sufficiently covered because we also ended the year much better of course uh and we also have other uh let's say cash in that we were expecting in q1 so i i'm pretty much sure that we will be able to handle the uh the super uh purchases, liquidity point of view. Of course, it means tight, but that will be okay. We would increase our Q1 net financial debt, but it will be okay.

Okay, thank you. Yes, partly. Yes, thank you. It's already first good guidance. Second question is on radiology solutions. Can you elaborate on how the new geographic roadmap and product supply redesign in radiology are expected to mitigate the volume shock that we saw last year and whether you foresee stabilization or further declining key markets such as China, for instance, or this year?

We are still forecasting the similar rate of decline in China or other markets. So that will still go on for film. But today, we have also stepped up very much the level of savings. And as I think I indicated, I think we are going to improve the results of radiology next year. Sorry, this year, in 26, not next year. This year we're going to improve the results of imaging and chemicals. So I think we have enough action, okay?

And then the third question is on the healthcare IT cloud transition. Can you provide more transparency on how many large cloud contracts that were signed in 2025 will actually go live in 2026? And what proportion of today's order book is already, let's say, implementation ready? This could help us with the modeling, the timing of revenue conversion during the trough period. Thank you.

I think right now we are entering 26. We have eight customers in the cloud. We expect this number to more than double at the end of 26. The typical, the number of contracts I cannot give you that on top of my head, but I would say we have a double digit number of contracts in the cloud that we made in 25. Typically, as I told you, it's between nine months to a year implementation delay. So the way which we are looking also as an indicator that probably we will start sharing at some time, which is the annual cloud revenue recurring. And this is like, you know, Guy, it's a small snowball effect. For the time being, it's still very small, but it's going to increase very rapidly over the next year or so. We will try to come up with the right metrics in the next quarter, but for the time being, we don't do that because it's still a very small part of our business. But as it will grow in implementation, we will continue to report on more metrics on the cloud transformation.

And then a last question, and then I will cue again.

Sorry?

Sorry.

No, go ahead, Guy.

And a fourth question, and then I will cue and I'll leave the floor to other analysts. Is a call without the word Aurelius strange over the last few quarters? Can you give me an update on where we stand?

I'm going to be very clear. I think the situation will be resolved by the end of Q1.

Can you be a little bit more precise?

I cannot be more precise than that. I think, you know, but I tell you, it will be resolved by the end of Q1.

Okay. Thank you.

Sorry. At this stage, be more precise. Okay, thank you. I'm pretty clear, I think. Thank you, Guy.

Thank you.

Any other?

There are no further questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to Pascal Jury, CEO, for any closing remarks.

Thank you. And again, a strong Q4 that demonstrates also the ability of the company to to actually react and do whatever is necessary to make sure we can address the challenges we have. And again, in 26, positive on health care IT, positive on DPS, where we're going to grow again, positive also even radiology, because we are going to improve our results. But the only difficult spot today for us is your phone membrane, but that's temporary. And we know it, we have the visibility. We fairly confident that we know that 27 will see a step up, but it's the only negative part for 26. And again, in 26, as you could see for silver, we have all our plans are in place we are modellized a bit where we need to be i'm not saying it's a walk in the park but we know how to do these things and and the transformation of the group will continue to will continue to take place in in 26 of course so thanks a lot thank you for your attention and speak to you soon bye

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.