Arkema S/Adr

Welcome to Arkema's first half 2025 results and outlook conference call. For your information, this call is being recorded. It will take place in a listen-only mode and you will have the opportunity to ask questions after the presentation by pressing star and one on your touchtone telephone. I will now hand you over to Terry Lenhoff, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. Sir, please go ahead.

Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Arkema's second quarter 2025 results conference call. Joining me today are Marie-Josée D'Ancien, our CFO, and the Investor Relations team that you know well. To support this conference call, we, as usual, posted a set of slides, which are available on our website. As always, I will comment on the highlights of the quarter, and then we'll let Marie-Josée go through the financials. And at the end of the presentation, as was said before, we'll be available to answer your questions. In Q2 2025, as you know, the macroeconomic environment was challenging with an increasing wait and see attitude of customers. This was no doubt reinforced by the uncertainty and lack of visibility around trade tariffs. As a result, the weakness of the demand has persisted through the quarter, impacting notably the U.S. and Europe. Asia, on the other hand, continues to be well-oriented from what we could see. The second quarter was also marked by an unfavorable evolution of exchange rates with the weakening of the U.S. dollar against the euro, as well as other currencies, such as the Korean won. All this is neither specific to Arkema nor something new to you, but it's important to mention this to start with. This context and these headwinds had, of course, an impact on our financial performance, but overall, Arkema reserves ended up relatively well with a slight decline in volumes, a robust EBITDA margin of 15.2%, and a solid cash generation on the quarter. This was supported by the good resilience of our adhesive solutions and high-performance polymers, demonstrating the quality of our portfolio and the work carried out in the last two years to deeply transform and strengthen Arkema. EBITDA was nevertheless lower year-on-year at €364 million for the quarter, reflecting mostly on top of the FX headwind, the decline in refrigerant gases, already well-flagged in Q1, but improving quarter-on-quarter, as well as a low cycle market condition in upstream acrylic directly impacted by the current macro. Looking briefly at the performance of specialty material segment. Adhesives had a very decent quarter, with an EBITDA slightly down compared to last year, despite the continued pressure of volumes. This performance of BOSIC was supported by the ongoing work on efficiency and our strict price discipline, enabling us to mitigate the wind demand environment in industrial adhesives, in particular, North America. On the other hand, construction business was slightly better in Europe and Asia, with a good momentum in efficient buildings. The integration of DAO is progressing well and contributed incrementally to the segment's result. In advanced materials, volumes were strongly up 6% in the quarter with growth in most businesses. High-performance polymers delivered yet again solid performance. They benefited from our significant footprint in Asia over many years and from our high value-added new business development in differentiated materials serving fast-growing markets such as sports, batteries, 3D printing. On the other hand, Elida was impacted by unfavorable geographical mix and overall weaker market conditions in performance additives. The margin of the advanced material segments remain overall then at a good level, close to 20%. Lastly, in coatings, the unit margins in atrium acrylics remain challenging, while the volume in downstream were disappointing, especially in North America. affected by the weakness of construction in this region. Therefore, the performance of the segment was significantly lower than last year. To adjust to the challenging environment, ARCEMA implemented also significant cost-cutting measures across the organization and tightly controlled working capital in CAPEX. Thanks to these specific initiatives, and I would like to highlight the hard work of the team, The group was able to offset fixed cost inflation over the quarter and generated a robust level above €110 million of recurring cash flow, which was not a given in the context. In parallel, the fundamentals of the group, as you know, are very solid. The megatrends beyond the short-term challenges will continue to drive the growth of the global economy, so it's important to continue to work on the long term and to be prepared for better times of the world economy. From this standpoint, one of our first priorities remains to ramp up our major projects, those which have been financed in the recent years. They are, as you know, centered on innovative material and focus on key growth markets such as electric mobility, sustainable lifestyle and goods, advanced electronics, and efficient buildings. We are now starting up our new capacity for additive in the U.S. for refining and biofuel just now. as well as the expansion of our organic peroxide in China for renewable energy. Besides, as anticipated, I am happy to confirm that our new green field plant in Singapore for biosource polyamide 11 is reaching the breaking point. And as announced at the beginning of July, we have decided to invest in a new unit of red sample transparent polyamide on this same site. expected to be operational quite quickly in the first quarter of 2026. This last investment represents a limited capex of around $20 million that will triple Arkema's global production with a very attractive payout. This will also contribute to our strategy to develop local supply close to our customers in this region. This comes on top of the new capacity which was recently announced. It was in February in the U.S. for PVDF. which is also scheduled to be completed by mid-2026, and this will enable us to follow market development and answer the increasing demand for locally manufactured PVDF in energy storage systems, semiconductors, cable markets, and other natural markets of PVDF. This was for my introduction. We now hand it over to Marie-Josée for a more in-depth look at the financials before we discuss the outlook at the end of the presentation.

Thank you, Thierry. Good morning, everyone. So, starting with revenues at 2.4 billion euros, quarterly sales were down 5.6% year-on-year, impacted by a negative 3.3% currency effect. This reflects the weakening of the U.S. dollar against the euro and that of most other currencies, including the Chinese yuan, the Korean won, and the Mexican peso. Volumes came in slightly down at 1.3%, mainly due to an overall weak demand environment in Europe and North America. On the other hand, several markets continued to grow in high-performance problems, especially in Asia. The price effect was a negative 2.5%, reflecting the unfavorable geographic means, the evolution of certain raw materials, as well as the market conditions, in particular in extreme acrylics. Continuing with profits, Q2 EBITDA came in at €364 million, impacted by the decreased contribution from the refrigerant gases, as well as a decline in cutting solutions, while adhesives and advanced materials were more resilient. Q2 EBITDA included also an unfavorable currency effect, estimated at around €15 million. Half is dollar-related. The other half is from all other currencies. Depreciation and amortizations stood at 166 million euros and included the amortization of new production units, which started during 2024. This leads to a recurring EBIT of 198 million euros and a rebate margin of 8.3%. Non-recurring items amounted to 82 million euros. They include 34 million euros of PPA amortization and 47 million euros of one-off charges, notably restructuring costs, linked to the reorganization of hydrogen peroxide sites in France. Financial expenses stood at 34 million euros, reflecting mainly the increased cost of our bonds and the low interest on invested cash. Consequently, 42 adjusted net income stands at 118 million euros, which corresponds to a 1.56 euro per share. Moving on to cash flow and net debt, Arkema delivered a very solid cash flow generation in quarter two. Recurrent cash flows stood at 111 million euros, reflecting a well-controlled working capital. The working capital ratio actually stands on annualized sales at 17%, which is comparable to last year. I'd like to thank the teams to have been able to strictly manage the level of stocks in a difficult-to-predict environment. Total capital expenditure amounted to 151 million euros in line with our guidance of annual cap expense of 650 million euros for the full year 25. Net debt and hybrid bonds at the end of June 25 amount to close to 3.6 billion euros, including 1.1 billion euros of hybrid bonds. Since a new 400 million euro hybrid was issued in May, refinancing the upcoming maturity early 26th. The net debt to last 12 months EBITDA ratio now stands at around 2.5 times. Thank you for your attention, and I'll now hand it over to Thierry for the office.

Thank you, Marie-José. So going now into H2, the macro environment seems to be in the continuity of the recent months, not surprised there, with low demand, sheer political uncertainty, and limited visibility, including on the tariff. Our industrial footprint close to our customers in our three major regions significantly protects the group from direct impact of higher tariffs. Obviously, we are remaining vigilant about what we call their direct impact on the global demand. In this context, as already said, we reinforce our initiatives on costs and cash. This year, we aim to achieve 100 million euros of savings in fixed and variable costs to offset inflation. If you remember, this is a double of the annual target set at the capital market day, September 23. We also continue to control strictly our operations and tightly manage our working capital and as we did in Q2. In parallel, we continue to build Arkema for the future. This is very important, and this includes the execution of our major projects that you know. We still believe we can expect a contribution of more than 400 million euros to Artemis EBITDA in 2028 in comparison to 2024. This year, given the current context, the ramp-up will be slower than expected, and we see an additional contribution to the Groups EBITDA of around 50 million euros versus last year. Based on all these factors, we now aim to achieve in 2025, as you could read, an EBITDA of between 1.3 and 1.4 billion euros. This includes an FX headwind of around 50 million euros for the full year, assuming a stabilization of exchange rate at the current level for the rest of the year. Based on this EBITDA forecast, the recurring cash flow should adjust accordingly to between 300 and 400 million euros. in 2025. I know there have been a few questions to the IR team this morning on this topic. As a matter of fact, the range is a mechanical adjustment, and there should initially be done cash guidance of end-of-feb, and also quite consistent if we make the analysis compared to last year's results. Beyond the current year, we are firmly convinced that mega trends are there to remain on the long term, and that Arkema is really very well positioned with its portfolio of cutting-edge technology and sustainability-driven innovation to continue to capture the numerous growth opportunities that we will create. So I thank you very much for your attention, and now, together with Marie-Josée, we are ready to answer your questions.

Thank you. If you wish to ask a question over the phone, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. If you wish to withdraw your question, please press star 2. Again, please press star one on your telephone to enter the question queue and wait for your name to be announced. First question is from Tom Wigglesworth, Morgan Stanley.

Thanks, Thierry, Maria, Zoe, for the presentation. A couple of questions, if I may. Jerry, just kind of focusing on that second half guidance that you've given and your wait-and-see commentary, what have you baked into the second half? Is it that things continue at the exit rate of 2Q? Is that what you're expecting? And around that, how long can these customers wait and see, right? Is there a certain point this year where they'll have to come back if they want to sell products, or can they last out through the whole year on this wait-and-see attitude? So that's my first question. My second question is around advanced materials. So just to unpack that a little further, I mean, obviously we're seeing good volume growth but declines in EBITDA. Is that because you're seeing ramp-up of volumes which aren't carrying positive EBITDA yet but will in the future? And at the same time that you're losing high value volumes underlying that picture in other markets. Just trying to understand, you know, when the volumes kick into EBITDA growth in advanced materials. Thank you.

Thank you. Those are very valid questions. Assumptions for H2 are basically in continuity, but we put a range of 100 million on the EBITDA, starting from the exit rate of of Q2 so depending on this range by nature any range certainly a bit more optimistic for the high end of the range assuming certainly a little bit of rebound at the end of the year and the low end assuming absolutely no No, no rebounds. So I would say for the time being, and nobody has any crystal ball, and we have been all surprised by the length of the wait and see. We've got some leaders, we're going to be a new one now. I think we prefer to be cautious because there are some elements which we don't master, including the tariffs. I think each time you see, you get something rather clear. You have some surprise a few weeks after, so it's better to be cautious. I still think it's our experience in chemicals. We started to have some destock. It was in September 23. It's really a very long period, so we are absolutely convinced that there will be a rebound at a certain time, and then there will be certainly plenty of upside. and linked to the tension we have seen several times in the past 10 years in chemicals. The question is when and really we don't know because beyond the typical macro cycle, you have some geopolitical factors that we don't master. So I would say it's neutral, but there will be, at a certain point, a light in the tunnel, and as usual, we believe that Arkema can get out of this period stronger than our competitors. This is what we have been proving since many, many years. With regard to advanced material, In fact, this is a difficulty when the markets are down, is that the mix is also a little bit affected. This means that we have a tendency to have more growth in the more commodity-type businesses and the more specialty businesses, and we have seen that already. And you have the contrary when there is rebound. This is why we have double gain in EBITDA when there is a rebound. But when the volumes are more under pressure, specialty businesses are suffering a bit more. So it's one answer. And the second one is that in terms of geographical mix, We have U.S., which is disappointing, and Asia is rather solid for us, and the mix between the two creates this discrepancy between volumes and EBITDA. But if I compare also to many pairs, we have to, despite all of this, we see for other materials and for the group, the level of EBITDA margin is quite robust still. I wanted to mention it.

Okay. Thank you very much, very clear. Thank you, Tom.

Next question is from Aaron Ceccarelli-Berenberg.

Hello, good morning. Thanks for taking my question. Thanks for slide number five, where you showed a recap of the new projects. Perhaps what assumption underpinned a reiterated forecast of above 400 million earnings contribution by 2028? Has this been reiterated on an assumption that by 2028 the market will be as you originally expected, or do you expect market share gains to support it in some of the projects you mentioned? The second question is on free cash flow and your leverage. I wonder if you can discuss a little bit what your thoughts are about the current leverage and the free cash flow generation going into the second half of the year. Thank you.

Okay, so on the first question. Projects are a little bit different in, I would say, different depending on which project we are talking about. For example, it's different if you take the Singapore plant of, I would say, the project with nitrogen. Project with nitrogen is really an integration of the raw material, and then we mechanically, as soon as it's really ramping up, We increase our profitability and on this event we get the benefit far before 2028. on Singapore, you will get the ramp-up of the business. So you have to assume clearly a recovery of the macro before 2028, but then it will be four years from now, and from September 23, it will be six years. So on this, we think it's a reasonable assumption that the macro, at a certain point, coming back to the answer to Tom, it will come back. The question is when, and we get his closer certainties. It was two years ago. So if you take Singapore development, you have a lot of development in niches. So you don't really – you take market share, but through technology. So it's not like you bring the same product with a lower price or whatever. It's really a new market that we are developing, a very technical market. We mentioned in sport. We mentioned in battery. We mentioned in – also with this new project of clear polyimide, et cetera. We did a lot, even if some people can have the impression that what is sustainability is slowing down in terms of potential of growth, we still believe that it's a big driver of the world, and we'll continue to push a lot on that. And so it's not really market share. Again, it's really a new development. We are very strict on new business development. We could mention also 3PM Advanced Electronics, Because of the new mobility, you have plenty of applications and digital, plenty of applications developing. So there is even if you can have some peak and down, the mid and long-term is still very positive. So all this is coming from this platform. new project, including also to show you a third nature of the projects, the acquisition of DAO adhesives in flexible packaging by Bostik. So there is a little bit of market share recovery because in the past two years before we bought it, this business had lost market shares. But it's far beyond that. I think by putting three ranges together, The two belonging to Arkema and Bostik and another one belonging to this new acquisition were able to really to be a full global player with a full range and in addition for flexible packaging and we will ramp up very quickly because in terms of technology we'll be really at the top of the market. So it's a different nature again of project and this is what is good with this. So I think we have 12 development projects. What is good about them, they have different natures, they are quite diversified, and if the macro is reasonably good, okay, I would say in the coming years we are confident to deliver the 400 million euros of contribution. On the free cash flow, I will let, in the current leverage, I will let Marie-Josée comment just to mention that I think, again, we are quite, if I compare also to some other TREX release, quite a good flication generation in Q2, which means really that it belongs to the DNA of Arkela and Stihl, and our balance sheet is quite solid.

So, regarding the updated guidance, basically it's quite consistent, let's say, with the what we did at the start of the year. So if you remember, end of February, we guided around 1.5 to 1.7 billion with a 600 million euro cash flow. The midpoint being 1.6 billion euros. So it's now readjusted to between 1.3 and 1.4. So midpoint is 1 billion 350. So I'd say you find basically a corresponding adjustment on the cash flow guidance. So it still assumes actually a... similar type of variance in working capital that we had generated last year and also assumes the reduction of capex that we have committed to deliver this year and on which we are on track. Therefore, I would think the leverage, if you take the midpoints of the two guidances, should remain relatively stable between 2.4 times EBITDA and 2.5 times EBITDA.

Thank you very much.

Next question is from Martin Favre, BNP.

Hi, good morning. Two questions, please. The first one, clearly we've seen a resilience of the two specialty divisions, additives and advanced materials. But when we look at coatings, obviously a very different picture. So I was wondering if you could I guess, talk about the different dynamics within the coatings division between downstream and upstream acrylics. And maybe can you talk about the resilience of that downstream business in terms of, I guess, net pricing, margin, contribution, et cetera. And then the second question for Marie-Josée on that cash flow point, I understand that you're taking the same assumption on working capital as last year. But I mean, last year, sales were up a group level. And I guess this year, they're going to be down, you know, a few hundred millions. So I'm just wondering, are you assuming that we see a recovery towards the end of the year? And therefore, I guess the working capital picture reflects an improvement into which one next year? Thank you.

Thank you, Laurent. So on the first question, in fact, it's true that we have two different dynamics between extreme and downstream. Extreme, no surprise in this kind of environment, and this is almost cyclical business. So we suffer from unit margin, which is linked from the spread, which is linked to the cycle and the low demand. and it will come back as soon as the demand is recovering. So here you can see it two ways, but if you are positive you can say there is an upside for Arkema in the coming year, which is quite significant. And with regard to the downstream, I would say that the net pricing is resilient. The topic is volume. So, in fact, you have differentiated. One, this is net pricing, which is negative for the upstream, and the downstream is more the volume, which reflects the global economy.

On cash flow, basically when you compare the two second half, let's say, last year and this year, I expect similar improvements in investing capital, so close to 250 million euros. So the main driver is probably we count on a more flattish seasonality of the business compared to last year, in line with what we've seen since the beginning of the year. So this, I would say, is the main change if you compare the two financial years. Obviously, the other change is the less expenses on CAPEX that generate less payable of CAPEX. I guess this is mechanically factored in your models already.

Thank you. Next question is from James Hooper, Benfins.

Thank you very much for taking my questions. I have two, please. The first is around the incremental cost savings plan. The plan was before to save roughly 50 million per year through to 2028. Are the incremental savings found this morning, are they additional to the plan or are these unloading of future savings given the pressure on the business? And then my second question is about the portfolio. Given the kind of different dynamics and the capital being invested is focused much more on high-performance polymers and adhesives, has the performance of coating solution changed your view on the right portfolio for Arkema? Thank you.

Okay, so two very different questions, but quite valid. So the first one, in fact, the 50 per year on average becomes 100 for this year. So we should have achieved 50. So it's 50 incremental to the 50, which brings it to 100, which is quite significant for us. for and I would say structural, so it's not the idea is that, It's not just sort of one-off that we'll get back next year. The idea is that we set the base lower than it should have been with our previous plan. So it's really a big effort from the team. So as you know us, we are always a little bit low profile in terms of communication on that. the momentum by the team is really there. With regard to the performance of cutting solution, in fact, it's typical performance of cutting solution when the market is down, so we should not overreact. We know you have to be prepared that actually depending on the cycle, to be lower than what is normalized conditions. So it's a bit more, even if EBITDA is quite disappointing, but it's not horrible. I would say we are in conditions which are a little bit extreme for this kind of business because of this context that we have explained. So it can get normalized quite soon. As soon as you start to see some rebound, some tension, you will be positively surprised by cutting solutions. So we don't want to go in the dark. We have, as you know, a strategy which is very clear. around three segments, which make our materials, specialty materials, focus. They are very complementary. For example, in coatings, we see a lot of application in battery. It's a very important technology in battery, very complementary to what we do in adhesives. and also in high-performance polymers. So we really will continue to build on that. Once it's up and you're right, in terms of allocation of cash and of resources, we put a clear priority in high-performance polymers and adhesives, and like in any portfolio, you have some businesses which play more the cash cow, and so where you really put the emphasis on the growth.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Next question is from Matthew Yates, Bank of America.

Hey, good morning, everyone. Just a couple, please. I wanted to just revisit the balance sheet and the cash flow. Correct me if my numbers are wrong. I think at the strategy presentation, you talked about 650 to 700 million of capex on average through the coming years. When you look at that leverage ratio, which is the highest I can remember at Arkema, and you also think about the state of the end markets, are you still intending to spend the same magnitude of capex over the next couple of years, or will you be revisiting that? And then the second question, slightly more specific really, is there's some press stories about a big US smartphone company potentially launching a foldable model next year. I don't know if you have any insights as to whether that would use Polyme technology, whether Arkema has a chance of selling into a U.S. customer, because that was obviously one of the big synergy opportunities from taking the Korean technology into different markets. So curious if you have any insights into that. Thank you.

Okay, so with regard to the first one, so you're right to say that we started with an amount which was 750 to 800 at the capital market day. We decreased to 650 to 700. Clearly, the current spend this year is max 650. If we can do less, we'll do less, but it's max 650. And given the current context, it's clear that we have not a tendency to exceed 650 for next year. So this, we have to be concerned. It will depend on the macro. But, you know, we are just finishing a big launch that we have finished to finance last year, a big wave of capex. So we are not in a hurry to put big capex next year. So we'll continue to... I would say, to streamline the capacity. So let's consider that this year the max is 650, and then next year, from what we see today, the max will also be 650, to be concerned. With regard to the smartphone, clearly, I don't want to be too specific, especially in advance of PAM and, you know, the company in Korea. So I want them to let their communication go. But clearly, all you are talking about are opportunities for PAM is a global, is supplying globally. to supply global players on smartphones, so they are very well positioned and they are taking opportunities from all the new models. But I don't want to be too specific.

Thank you, Thierry. You're welcome.

Next question is from Chitan Udeshi, JP Morgan.

Hello, can you hear me? Yeah. Cool. The first question was, it seems from your comment that you haven't really seen much change so far in July versus what you saw in Q2. And if that is correct, would you suggest that we model seasonal developments in third quarter compared to second quarter, which tends to be down like 5%, 10% versus 6%, Second quarter, is there something that can be different in Q3 versus normal seasonality? That's one. The second question perhaps for Marie-José, your net interest financing costs were higher than I think at least what we had in mind. I think historically you've talked about 80 to 90 million of net financial expenses and Is that number now higher given what we've seen in Q2? I know you also have refinanced some of your debt. And third question was, you know, it seems you, you know, the comment about rapid recovery when demand turns suggests that you think all of the earnings pressure that you've seen in some of your businesses, most notably in coatings, is cyclical. But we also know that the supply cycle today is far worse than we've had for for many, many years. So why would your profitability recover rapidly? In other words, why should we not see some of your earnings pressure in some of your businesses to be more structural in the sense you've just lost it just because you can't compete with some of the very low price competitors?

Okay. So I will let Marie-Josée answer on the two, obviously. On the first one, I would say that July is... If I put the seasonality aside, I mean, it's the same kind of trend as the exit of Q2, and you have not to expect a miracle overnight. It will come, so I would say it's really in the continuity, but without being too specific, you should see the normal seasonality of Q3 versus Q2. If you take the past 10 years, you have seen that Q3 is always below Q2. With a certain discount, which can be more or less important, if you take the average, I think it gives you a good idea. You need to take in mind that August is a low month. It's a short month. So, no special comments on that, just that we enter the quarter in continuity in the second quarter, and that you will observe the normal seasonality where, because of August, the Q3 is a lower quarter than Q2. But nothing special there, and it's factored in the guidance.

Yeah, so regarding the financial expenses, you are correct. In fact, we face an increase in financial expenses in our P&L. We have delivered 58 million euros net financial expenses for the first half. In fact, the cost of financing remains quite competitive because if you take the average cost of our bonds, both senior bonds and hybrids, the average rate that applies to Arkema is 2.7%, which frankly, in the current market financial interest, it's extremely competitive still. But we have less liquidity that we invest. We basically repaid a senior bond of 700 million euros in January. And, in fact, the main effect of this increased financial expansion is coming from the interest on invested cash, which is, in fact, lower than what we got as revenues last year. So this is, in fact, the main phenomena. I was investing last year $1.7 billion at an average of 3%, and I'm now investing an average of $1.2 billion cash at an average of 2.2%, for instance.

Thank you, Marie-Josée. So on the last question, I did not say that profitability would recover quickly. What I say is that the profitability of the coating solutions and in particular of the upstream, which is the upstream acrylics, will recover with the market. This means that it's certainly in our specialty portfolio, the more cyclical business and And it's linked to the profitability, back to the question of law, of the extreme. The cycle is reflecting the macro. So, for the time being, we are in those cycles. So, we see that on the net pricing, on the unit margin of the Atrium Accelix. And mechanically, when the demand will come back, we will have a recovery of the earnings. Now, on your point, it also depends on the supply. On the supply, I mean, we have now close to 15 years of experience on that. The wild card is more easier because in Europe and U.S., you have absolutely no change in the supply since many years, and there will not be because it would make no sense to extend in these two regions. So it's really depending on the demand there. And on Asia, you can see we are already in low capacity, but I would say for the first part of the year, finally, our academic profitability is not so bad. And I know that China wants to put more pressure on the on the rationalizing capacity in many sectors. So you can see it positively or negatively, but I always try to stay calm and neutral. So I would say to answer your question, we don't think that the earning decrease is structural. For the reasons that I've mentioned in three actually, as I mentioned to Laurent, it's a volume topic. And we should be at rest when the recovery. Now, about the speed of the recovery, I have no clue. You have no clue. Nobody has any clue. We will wait and see. But we are prepared for when it will be ready there.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

For any further questions, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. We have no more questions registered at this time.

Okay. I would like to thank you very much for your interesting question, and I wish you all a good continuation of the summer. Okay. Talk to you soon. Bye-bye.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes this conference call. Akima thanks you for your participation. You may now disconnect.