Fagron Sa Ord

Good morning and welcome to FAGRAN's H1 2024 resource conference call hosted by Raphael Padilla, CEO, and Karen De Jong, CFO. Throughout today's recorded presentation, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question and answer session. If you wish to register for questions, please signal by pressing star one on your telephone keypad at any time. Post call, if you have any questions, please reach out to the investors relation email address that is investors at stagron.com. At this time, I'd like to hand the call over to Rafael Padilla, CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

Thanks Francois, and good morning all. We're very happy to see the continuation of our strong performance as we achieve 12.8% organic growth at CER, with revenues increasing to 429 million euros for the first half of the year. This growth was driven by positive contributions by all regions, and particularly accelerated by the exceptional performance in compounding services. Our revenue margin increased by 30 basis points to 19.7%, reflecting synergies from acquisitions and benefits from operational excellence initiatives. As we look ahead, we're upgrading our full-year revenue guidance to a range of 850 to 870 million euros, while still expecting an improvement in profitability year on year. Carin will give more color later on. Moving on to the regional dynamics, in EMEA, B&E's performance showcases the benefits of our diversified footprint across the region, and as announced during H2 2023, changes to the reimbursement system in Poland continue to impact results. The compounding services' impressive performance is supported by strong market demand and growth with the Netherlands benefiting from the new product launches and secular drug shortages. As mentioned, integration of Pagma product in Hungary and LSP in the UK is going as expected with both of them already contributing to the region's results. In EMEA, we see the underlying demand for compounded medication developing very well and it is strategically important to capture this opportunity while maintaining the highest quality standards. As a result, We will be investing 15 million euros in our FSS facility in the Netherlands. It will be a state-of-the-art one, enabling us to expand capacity, widen our product portfolio, and increase automation. Lastly, Costas Koulouridas will be leading the Enea region following Martin's departure to pursue other opportunities. We thank Martin for all his efforts and hard work and wish him all the best. Costas? Previously, the head of Southeastern Europe has been at Fagron since 2014, following our acquisition of Kertus. His very impressive track record and expertise made him the ideal candidate to take EMEA to the next level. Moving on to the next slide, during the last few conference calls, we have been providing updates on the changes to the reimbursement system in Poland. These changes result in a shift in market dynamics with customers now moving towards bigger units of measure, however, at the lower price point. As announced, Regulator will be implementing during the second semester price adjustments which are in line with our expectations. Also, as foreseen, the strategic initiatives we set out towards the end of last year have allowed us to clearly remain the market leader and better position ourselves in a market with strong fundamentals. Moving on to LATAM, we remain the market leader in this highly attractive and competitive market. Our operational excellence programs, especially around procurement and our strong innovation power, supported margin performance. B&E was able to capture the rising demand and drive revenue growth, mainly due to our heavy focus on innovations and broadening our product portfolio. All of this translated into a strong performance for brands despite the seasonality effect of Easter holidays. On the compounding services side, once again, Colombia has delivered impressive results driven by strong market demand and successful execution. Moving on to North America, the B&E segment saw sequential improvement quarter-on-quarter, resulting in a 4.1% organic growth. This is mainly driven by improvements on operational excellence and the consolidation of our lack of facility. Still at B&E, last year we announced a $20 million investment for the construction of a repackaging facility indicator. However, we have decided not to proceed with that investment and pursue an alternative by optimizing our existing facility through targeted upgrades while leveraging the robust capacity of our global network. We remain committed and confident of achieving our stated ambition of market leadership. In compounding services, FSS achieved exceptional results driven by capturing the underlying demand that is constantly expanding. Boston continues its outstanding performance and we can now shift to four or six states. Of course, we continue to onboard new customers and constantly look for ways to better serve. On Anazeel, Growth remains impressive as we continue to capitalize on strong underlying demand for prevention and lifestyle, coupled with benefits from the short-term drug shortages. We now expect this to continue into the second half of the year, and the revenue will be the same as in H1, that is $12 million. Our investment in Tampa's new facility is progressing as planned and is currently running its final validations. we expect the transfer of operations to occur during the second half of this year. During this transition stage, we will be running double cost in line with what we had communicated during our full year results. On both FSS and an ASIL, we're positioning the business to capture the rising demand while maintaining the highest quality standards. For this, we have been increasing our employee base, which will impact our operational leverage for this year. Also, we would like to announce a $39 million investment in our Wichita facility, which is in line with the announcement we made during our capital market stay and will support us in achieving our mid-term organic revenue growth target. This will allow us to increase capacity, maintain the highest quality standards, and better position the business to capture the rising demand. before moving to the financials on quality. This is a big factor in our industry, and we remain committed to maintaining the highest quality standards across all our regions in line with the rapidly increasing regulatory requirements. So far into the year, we had seven audits globally, including a two-weeks one at Wichita, which resulted in seven observations. Our team has submitted its data response and is working towards a satisfactory close. And now Karin will go through the financial highlights for the period.

Thank you, Rafa. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us on this call. Let me walk you through the first half of 2024 financials and provide more color on the full year 2024 outlook. On this slide, we have the financial highlights for the first half of the year, during which sales grew by 15.5% to €429.3 million. All regions show a positive growth while North America once again reported the strongest growth of 26.2%. ROS margin improved by 19 basis points compared to the same period of last year, driven by better performance in the LATAM region and the product mix. Operating expenses grew 17.5% compared to H1 2023. This is in line to what Rafa mentioned earlier, that we have been increasing our workforce on the compounding services side in North America, to support the rising volume growth while maintaining the highest quality standards. A revenue margin expanded by 30 base points compared to the previous year, the rise in profitability mainly showcases our improved operational performance and the synergies from our acquisitions. Strong cash flow conversion reflects our solid cash generating capabilities, with operating cash flow improving 35% to 58.3 million euros, excluding the factoring impact. Lastly, the net depth to Avidata ratio increased slightly to 1.5 times, compared to 1.4 times at the end of 2023, leaving us ample hat room for future acquisition opportunities. The bridge on the slide shows the sales development during the first half of 2024. EMEA experienced a modest organic growth at CER of 3.3%. while North America witnessed a remarkable 26.2% organic growth at CER, as the compounding segment continues to drive performance. Meanwhile, LATAM saw a strong organic growth at CER of 5.7% due to the execution of our strategy. Our recent acquisitions of LSP and Pharma products contribute €9.6 million to the results, further confirming our disciplined and strategic approach to M&A. The P&L on the right side of the slide illustrates a 15.5% top-line growth, while EBITDA increased by 17.2% before non-recurring items. The financial costs have increased primarily due to higher interest rates on our debt and debt-like items. As a result, earnings per share increased by 22.2% year-on-year to 55 cents for the first half of the year. Turning to the next slide, In the EMEA region, we witnessed growth being supported by compounding services. EMEA continued to be impacted by the changes in reimbursement law in Poland, which was compensated by higher prices and benefits from registrations and drug shortages in other markets. Compounding services experienced solid revenue growth of 27.4%, driven by all markets and our acquisitions. Organic growth at CER in Q2 shows a slowdown after a very strong Q1 start. However, we expect growth to normalize through the year. In terms of profitability year-on-year, the EBITDA margin was impacted by the Poland developments. Looking ahead to the second half of the year, we expect the margin to improve in line with our strategic actions in that market. Lastly, on CAPEX, as Rafa mentioned, we will be investing €15 million in our FSS facility in the Netherlands. The project is expected to be completed by 2027, and this CAPEX is a one-off CAPEX. It will be on top of a regular CAPEX. We will be incurring a very small portion of the 50 million euros in 2024, but the majority will be spent in 2025 and 2026. Moving on to LATAM. Sales increased by 6.8% to 86 million euros, or 5.7% at CER. Letham remains a highly competitive as well as an attractive market, as we see rising underlying demand in the region. This resulted in higher volumes, which partly offset the lower prices that had to be implemented to sustain our market position. Overall, the essentials growth at CER was flat the first half of the year, though during Q2 it had a positive growth after many quarters. Brands saw a substantial growth of 19.5%, driven by new product launches and innovation. Meanwhile, compounding services continues its impressive growth trend, achieving a 42.3% growth rate year-on-year. Gross margin for LATAM increased due to increased brand sales as well as operational efficiencies. The revenue growth combined with gross margin expansion and a strong focus on cost savings in OPEX resulted in a 160 basis point revenue margin expansion for the first half of the year. Looking at the second half of the year, we expect a margin increase year on year. Turning to the next slide on North America, sales during the first half of 2024 amounted to 183.1 million euros, translating into a 26.2% increase. B&E delivered a quarter-on-quarter growth as we benefited from improving operational excellence and consolidation of the repacking activities. As Rafa mentioned, we will not be proceeding with the 20 million dollars CAPEX at Decatur. The better alternative is Capital Light and enables us to achieve our targets. Compounding Services continues to lead the sales growth as it delivered a 36% increase year-on-year, primarily driven by the outstanding performance at FSS and NSAO. FSS saw a 40.2% sales increase during the period attributed to increasing orders from existing customers, new order wins, and drug shortages. Our EBITDA margin increased by 130 basis points as we benefited from synergies and efficiencies from our acquisitions and improvements in operational excellence. Looking ahead, we expect full-year margin to slightly increase compared to the full-year 2023 due to extra labor force hired to accommodate our future growth and the double costs running at NSEA at Tempa, while we complete the transfer to the new facility. We have also announced a one-off CAPEX at Wichita of 39 million US dollars. The project is expected to complete it by 2027. And as this is a one-off CAPEX, it will be on top of our regular CAPEX. We will be incurring a small amount of the spend in 2024, while the rest is being incurred between 2025 and 2027. Moving on to our cash flow slide, Strong cash conversion remains as one of the strengths of our business model. Operating working capital as a share of sales increased by 290 base points year-on-year to 14.5%, reflecting the facing-out-of-factoring impact. Operating cash flow decreased slightly despite the EBITDA growth, though when adjusting for facing-out-of-factoring, it increased considerably by 35%. As mentioned during the full year 2023 conference call, we expect to reduce factoring by 50% in 2024. The reduction in factory will increase our receivables, but will decrease our debt levels, resulting on lower interest costs and banking fees. During the first half of 2024, CAPEX excluding one-offs amounted to 12.9 million euros. Free cash flow conversion was 54% when adjusting for phasing out of the factoring and the one-off CAPEX. Moving to the next slide, the bridge illustrates the evolution of our net debt during the first half of 2024, going from €234 million to €275 million. The €41 million increase is mainly related to the acquisitions and investments we have announced and the dividend payouts that took place in this period. Regardless of the increase, our net debt to EBITDA ratio remains at a healthy level of 1.5 times, which compares to 1.4 times at the end of 2023. Going forward, we will continue our disciplined M&A strategy while maintaining our internal threshold of Net Depth to EBITDA ratio of 2.8 times, which gives us ample room to maneuver. We remain focused and committed on maintaining a solid balance sheet while pursuing growth opportunities aligned with our strategy. Before I hand it back to Rafa, let me guide you through our upgraded full-year 2024 outlook. We are upgrading our full year 2024 revenue guidance to a range of 850 to 870 million euros. Additionally, we continue to expect our margin to improve year on year. Maintenance CapEx will be around 3.5% of sales, excluding the already announced projects and investments across the region. Regarding the long-term working capital guidance of 12.5 to 13.5%, by the end of the year, we expect to be within the guided range. I would now like to hand it back to Rafa for his concluding remarks.

Thanks, Karin. To conclude, Fagron is a global, vertically integrated, niche, defensive, high-cost generating company operating in a highly fragmented market. Our resilient business model is fortified by a diverse geographic footprint, and these factors, coupled with demographic trends and our emphasis on personalization, are the basis of our success. Our quality focus, together with our ongoing operational excellence initiatives, will help optimize our business through global synergies and best practices, while a disciplined M&A strategy remains a key part of our growth. Sustainability is a paramount priority and a strategic cornerstone for us, as together we create the future of personalizing medicine. With that, we open the floor for questions. Thank you all.

Thank you, Sir. As a reminder, if you would like to ask a question or make a contribution on today's call, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. If you change your mind and want to withdraw your question, please press star 2. Please ensure your lines are unmuted locally as you'll be prompted when to ask your question. The first question comes from the line of Frank Claassen from DeGroof Petercam. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning all. Three questions, please. First of all, on the semi-glutide revenues, did I understand it correctly? There was a $12 million in the first half and will also be in the second half, $12 million. And what is roughly the underlying growth of NSEO excluding these drug shortages? That's the first question. Then secondly, on the Wichita investment, $39 million. Can you elaborate how much capacity, revenue capacity you think you can build with this investment? So what is roughly the max revenues for the current facility and what can it go to in the future? And then thirdly, the factoring. Could you help us out? What was roughly the factoring number at the first half results? And I understood it will be halved in 24. Will it then be fully gone in 25, or what is roughly the path of the factoring going forward? Thank you.

Yeah, so good morning, Frank. I will start with your first questions on the shortages in the US. So you understood it correctly that the impact is around 12 million US dollars for the first six months, and we expect a similar amount for the second half of this year, and that's also embedded in the guidance. If we look at the underlying growth of the NSEO business, excluding this shortage, we're around 12% growth in the first half. So if we look at the second half, as you know, in 2023, we also sold this product in the second half of this year. So the comps are getting stronger and we expect NSEO then to go back to the normalized growth pattern.

Morning, Frank. Regarding the investment in Wichita, this is in line with what we announced at the Capital Markets Day. And this will bring us 200 million more capacity. It will be a facility fully dedicated for IV backs and with a high degree of automation. So when you take the existing 250 million capacity with both Wichita and Boston, and you add this new 200 million, we will be, as from, of course, H1 2027, at the $450 million capacity.

And maybe on your final question on the factoring. Yeah, so indeed, we announced that we will reduce the factoring amount by 50%. So at the end of 2023, we were at 35.5 million of factoring. By the end of June, we were at 19.1 million. We brought it back with $16.4 million in the first six months. And that's also what you see translating into our working capital because we increase, of course, our receivables. We bring back our debt. And we're also reducing costs, of course. So we expect a full year saving next year of approximately $1.5 million based on this action. For the rest of this year, we expect a couple of million to go, but not that much because we're almost at 50%, and that's it. So we don't expect further decreases in 2025. I hope that answers your question, Frank.

Yeah, that's very clear. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Before proceeding to the next questions, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from a line of Thomas Franklin from KBC Securities. Please go ahead.

Hi, thanks for taking my question and congrats on the nice results. I wanted to zoom in a bit on recent news with regards to compounding semaglutide. There were some reports by the FDA or by the regulator with regards to some misdosing. at the level of healthcare practitioners. I just wanted to ask if there is any read-through to Fivon as well, as it didn't seem to be related specifically to one of your products. And then secondly, on the EMEA business, I also wanted to ask if you've seen any impact so far from the Medios acquisition of Seban in the Netherlands, if that has any impact on your business there. Thank you.

Sure. Good morning, Thomas. regarding on the semi-glutide we have seen of course as you said this the release and it is indeed because of the of the administration form at the patient level right we have not experienced at an aseo any any claim or observation on this one regarding medios as we said during the last conference call it's a business usual right so Shaban was a a competitor since 2004, and we have seen at the same level of operation during the first six months what we have seen historically. So again, business as usual, no impact.

Okay, thank you.

As a final reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one. The next question comes from the line of Victoria Lambert from Berenberg. Please go ahead.

Thanks for taking my questions. The first one's just on the US business. Are you open to compounding more GLP-1 products, so other products other than Wegovy? And then are you also open to doing this in maybe other countries? Could you just provide more detail on your cap expense changes, so how you will be servicing orders that would be coming from the Decatur facility? And then thirdly, just on M&A, what is the outlook for deals in H2? Are these still looking relatively expensive with competition from private equity? Thank you.

Thanks, Victoria, for the question. Good morning. Regarding your first on the GLP-1 compounding, when it's possible through a regulatory framework, of course, we will compound, right? And at this moment, as you said, we're only compounding in the US because it's the only market that we can compound this material.

Yeah, so maybe on your CAPEX, so indeed we announced two additional ones, a new investment in the U.S. in Wichita to serve the markets and the underlying demand and also increase capacity. Same for the Netherlands, which is also an additional investment on top of our maintenance CAPEX. For the investment we earlier announced on the cater, we are substituting that to a facility upgrade, so we see the increasing benefits of our operational excellence programs. And we also saw in timing and execution complexity in the investment. We see that with the current footprint we're having that we can solve it throughout our current network of production facilities. And we are able to serve with this facility upgrade the U.S. market and still can aim of being a market leader in that specific segment in the U.S. maybe on your M&A outlook so indeed we have an M&A strategy on top of our organic growth so we continue our disciplined approach and we are assessing new opportunities globally we'll focus on all regions we have a full pipeline we also looking at opportunities to partner So on timing, it's always a bit difficult with these types of deals. So we do expect on the short and the long term to do additional M&A and to contribute our top line sales with acquisition growth. So we are still working towards that.

Thanks. And then maybe just one more. On the Brazilian market, what is the outlook looking like for H2 and maybe going forward? Are the regulators maybe clamping down on some of the competition? Yeah, just some more color here would be helpful.

Regarding the competitive landscape, of course, as you know, Victoria, it's a highly competitive market, right? It is for sure the biggest one in the world. We have not seen so far any restriction from the regulators, in this case Anvisa, to our competitors. What we also want to state is that we follow our global strategy of maintaining the highest quality standards in line with the rapidly increasing regulatory requirements, right? So sooner or later, this will for sure benefit us.

Yeah, maybe to highlight a bit more on the financials for H2. So LATAM will continue their pleasing performance, reflecting the strategic actions we have taken historically. So we'll show a similar growth pattern as we have seen in H1 for H2. And on the profitability side, we always have a seasonality impact in that region. So we expect the profitability in H2 to be better than in H1 for the LATAM market. So we are very confident in this market as we are moving more towards our long-term guidance for this region. I hope that answers the question. Great, thanks.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks. The next question comes from a line of Martin Verbeek from the IDEA. Please go ahead.

Good morning. It's Martin Verbeek of the IDEA. Firstly, you have obtained four additional licenses recently. for your Boston facility. Since you didn't mention any additional important states, I presume they are still missing. And do you still expect to obtain licenses before year-end for all states in the US? And secondly, initially you had stated that you expected high single-digit organic growth rate for this year. Now you have made that an absolute one. If I make some calculations, is it then fair to assume that you expect your organic sales growth to be around 10%? Is that incorporated in this new Outlook guidance? Thank you.

Thank you, Martin, and good morning. And indeed, you are right. We are now able to ship to 46 states from our Boston facility, and our ambition is to have this ability throughout the whole country, right?

course we have filed everything needed to get those four remaining and we await till the state boards give us the license in order to ship to the four main states yeah and on the second one Martin so if we look at indeed the range that we have given the 850 to 870 million euros the reported growth will be between 11.4 and 14 percent and for the acquisition growth we expect a similar amount as in h1 which was 9.6 million. Maybe a bit of color for the different regions. So in EMEA, we will see an organic growth in line with our long-term guidance, which is low single digits. If we look at the LATAM, as I explained also to Victoria, we expect a similar growth pattern as we've seen in H1 for H2 2024. And then lastly, on North America, they, as said, continue to benefit from the drug shortages for another two quarters. So there's approximately 12 million US dollars embedded in the guidance. And of course, the comps are getting stronger So one for NSAO, and secondly, of course, the FSS business, which has a very strong performance, and we do expect this to continue. However, also the comps here are getting tougher. So the percentual growth will go down based on this. But the B&E business in North America will continue its good performance quarter on quarter. So overall, we expect good performance for 2024 on top-line growth and also on profitability.

Thank you. The next question comes from a line of Eric Wilmers from Kempen.

Please go ahead. Good morning, Rafael and Karin. Thanks for taking my question. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about the phasing of the Wichita investments, both in terms of annual capex phasing during 2025 and 2027 and the step-up in capacity during these years. And secondly, I was wondering if you could give some more color on the U.S. opportunity for IVBACs. in terms of market growth expectations, what competition is doing, et cetera, also given your focus already on this field, but now also out of Wichita. So keen to hear that. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, Erik. So to start with the first question on CAPEX, so sort of 39 million. We will have a couple of million, so two or three million this year. And then most of the spend will be divided between 2025 and 2026. It will depend a bit on timing for invoices and obligations, but most of the spend will be made in those two years. And then maybe a small bit in 2027, but that will basically be spent on the validation part of the processes and the registration phases. So most of it spread over those two years.

Good morning, Eric. And your question is very interesting because when you look at the total market, right, and you look at the independent reports that explain how the market is situated, the total market amounts at around 3 billion US, 50% in-source, 50% outsource. And then when you look in the product categories, you have, of course, different ones, but the main two are the syringes, the OR syringes. and the bags, and you would say it's 70-30, so 70 bags, 30 the syringes, right? I think that, of course, the bags are bigger, so have more complexity logistically in a basement of a hospital where you normally find the pharmacies and the compounding units, so this is what tends to be outsourced more frequently. Having said that, when you look at the competitive landscape, and to your question, almost all outsourcers prepare those bags, right? Nevertheless, when you look at FSS and historically we started in 2017 when we opened the new facility after the acquisition of GCB Labs, we decided at that time to start with the OR syringes and then include the IV bags and we became quite substantial in the market as from 2020. Now we see that here lies the big opportunity, right? Our thesis of outsourcing remains even increases, right? Quality regulation, as we said, is increasing. So this is a perfect mix for us to have a full dedicated line automated across the street where we have the warehouse and, of course, the quality control lab in order to make and compound, of course, the IV bags.

That's very helpful. And regarding the capacity step-up during these years, is it very much at the end and geared to the end or is it basically following part of the CAPEX?

Sure, that's correct. You see it correct. It will be at the end when we have the full line ready, H1 2027, when we will entertain the 200 million extra capacity.

Understood. Thank you very much.

Thanks a lot, Eric.

The next question comes from a line of Mathias Meinerholt from Kepler Chauvre. Please go ahead.

Yeah, good morning. Sorry, I joined the call pretty late. I had other reportings, but I had maybe one question. From the press release, it's not exactly to speak about expansion of Carpex in Wichita and the Netherlands, but I don't see any additional new targets or sales that you ambition from these investments. So I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on that and how you see the scaling from the additional revenues. That would be my question. Thank you.

Yeah, hello, Matthias, good morning. So we have two different investments. We have one in the Netherlands, our sterile facility in Hogeveen, which will offer a sterile portfolio of products. These products are now sold to hospitals, pharmacies, and they take care of the pharmaceutical care and then dispense them to the patient. So if we look at the market in the Netherlands, that market is approximately 150 million, which is mainly insourced. As you know, we are active in that market, but the biggest part of our business in the Netherlands is still non-sterile. So with this acquisition, with this investment, we want to capture more of that market share and also capture on the outsourcing trend we also see in the Dutch market. So if we look at the specifics of the business case, as you can understand, we're not disclosing that. So we're reiterating our long-term guidance. We do see that market is growing faster than our other markets. So our sterile market in the Netherlands, our business is growing faster than our non-sterile business. Of course, that's the main driver for doing this investment. Same for the U.S. investment case. So there is also exactly the same as I said. So we're extending in the U.S. our capacity to serve the growing markets And we believe that with this investment, we will ensure ourselves from continuing to benefit from this attractive market. And we can leverage the knowledge of our teams in Wichita by building that in the same area. So as I said, we're adding $200 million of capacity in that region. And that will serve the high demand that we facilitate, that we see in that market. So currently, we're not disclosing any details for those specifics. in the business cases, as you can imagine.

Okay, cool. May I do a short follow-up on the Netherlands? Maybe just you said that most of this is still in-house of the business that you will chase. Could you maybe elaborate what you see as key catalysts for increased outsourcing? And then secondly, I do anticipate that there is already somebody that is presently active in that market. So could you maybe elaborate on the competitive environment

the market for the business that is already outsourced yes sure good morning uh matthias when you look at the key trends of this market again is what we reiterate many times right there are two elements here the first one is the increased regulatory scrutiny that the whole market faces and of course also the the hospital pharmacies so this is really pushing the outsourced trend and the compounders so 503bs are capitalizing on this one right so this is one and secondly of course the volumes are increasing so you see with drug shortages that is something that is inherent in our business it's a trend that we all spoke during our capital market day it's there it's there also to stay of course this is also driving increase in the volumes for the for the b market and then when you go into the competitive landscape you have the list of the outsourcers in the FDA website, of course. And here you divide it in more or less two parts. One would be the prevention and lifestyle, where Anazeo is situated, and the other one in the outsourcing, the hospital outsourcing, of course. And in this one, we would account approximately around 15, 1-5 players, which are active in this market. And of course, internally, when we look at the market and the dynamics, we can have a tier one, tier two, tier three. Historically, we were tier two, tier three, right? Then we have scaled it. And as from 2020, when we adjusted some of our processes, when we introduced, as from Eric's question, the IV bags, of course, we went into tier one. And of course, now we are benefiting from the two other trends that we said before, and we see increased in volumes on the underlying market. The scarring we're referring and we're capturing this one.

Yeah, sorry. I might not make myself fully clear, but I was more pointing out to the Netherlands, to the Dutch market.

You were referring to the, to the U S sorry for that. Sure. So here on the competitive landscape, as Karin said very well, the majority of the market is insourced, right? So you see that hospitals compound a substantial part of it and the rest is being outsourced. We are one of the players. We would say we are also tier one in this space, but with a very low share because, again, almost everything is insourced. The market, as also Karin was referring, around 150 million so we believe that of course with the extra capacity we were able to capture this trend that is that sourcing trend the two drivers are the same like with in the US right so you can copy paste nevertheless at a lower at a lower pace yeah what would you say the percentage of outsourced business at this point in time this is substantially substantially low so substantially in source, the bigger part is in source, and the lower part is outsourced.

Okay, thank you. Sure.

We currently have no questions coming through. As a final reminder, if you would like to ask a question or a follow-up question, please press star 1. There are no further questions. And this ends our Q&A session. Thank you for participating to today's background H1 2024 results conference call. You may now disconnect your lines.