Bpost Sa Ord

Hello and welcome to the BPOS third quarter 2024 results. My name is Laura and I will be your coordinator for today's event. Please note this call is being recorded and for the duration of the call, your lines will be on listen and remote. However, you will have the opportunity to ask questions at the end of the call. This can be done by pressing star 1 on your telephone keypad to register your question. If you require assistance at any point, Please press star zero and you will be connected to an operator. I will now hand you over to your host, Mr. Philippe D'Artien, Group CFO, to begin today's conference. Thank you.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to all and thank you for joining us. I'm pleased to present you our third quarter result as CFO of Bipos Group. Please, our CEO could not make it today. And I have with me Antoine Lebec from Investors Relations. We posted the materials on our website this morning. We will walk you through the presentation and we'll then take your question. As always, two questions each. We'll ensure everyone gets a chance to be addressed in the upcoming hour. As you can see on the highlights on page three, our group operating income for third quarters stood at 1 billion, 25 million Euro and increased year over year by 5%. At constant perimeter, meaning excluding the 123.5 million consolidation impact of Stasi, our operating income decreased by 8% or 77 million, mainly due to ongoing pressures in North America, lower press revenue tied to the new press contract since 1st of July, while on the other end, our domestic mail remained resilient with less than 2% decline in revenue and our domestic parcel revenue grew by 9%. Our group adjusted EBIT stood at 10.3 million euro with a margin of 1% or minus 1 million euro when excluding the 11.3 million EBIT contribution of Stasi. On the like-for-like basis, this represents a decline of 29 million compared to last year or 24 million operationally when adjusted when adjusting third quarter 2023 for 5 million EBIT uplift resulting from the reversal of the repricing provision. In a seasonally softer quarter, this decline is mainly attributable to price where the lower revenue has a direct impact on EBIT and to a lesser extent to North America. This decline occurs despite our relentless efforts in cost management and productivity, which have helped mitigate some of these pressures. The group EBIT decline is mainly driven by the Belgium activities, which evidence our need to reshape our domestic activities and further develop our commercial offering, and also support our strategy shift towards logistics as shown by Stasys EBIT contribution this quarter. While these results are soft, they remain broadly in line with our plan and with the guidance provided in July. We are therefore able to reaffirm the 2024 EBIT outlook today. On page 4, you can find an overview of the key financials for the quarter, both reported and adjusted. Our reported EBIT amounts to negative 0.9 million euros, reflecting in particular an adjustment for M&A costs of 8 million incurred during the quarter. For context, nearly 15 million in M&A costs were recorded in the first half of the year, and we do not anticipate any significant M&A costs in the first quarter. In Q4, while our adjusted EBIT decreased by 18 million, our adjusted net profit decreased by 33 million to minus 14 million, reflecting notably lower financial results driven by the additional interest costs associated with the 1 billion of new debt on our balance sheet, the absence of last year's gain on contingent liability following our acquisition of the remaining share of inactive ends and some unfavorable FX impacts. Let's move now to the details of our three segments. As a reminder, as of this quarter, we have aligned our reporting format with our new activity-based business unit, meaning last mile, third-party logistic, also called 3PL, and cross-border. For ease of comparison, we have restated our 2023 and 2024 quarterly results in line with this new structure. These are available in the stat book on our website. I'm on page 5 with the last mile segment, which corresponds to the former Belgian business and now also includes personal logistics sub-segment featuring Dyna. At last mile, we see that revenue declined by 27 million to 522 million euros. For domestic mail, we recorded close to a 24 million decline in revenue, of which 20 million comes from press, mainly due to the new contract with the editors following the end of the press concession on June 30th, 2024. Excluding press, mail recorded an underlying volume decline of minus 6.7% for the quarter. As anticipated, This volume development in the quarter was supported by mail volume from municipal and provincial elections in Belgium. The decline in mail volume led to a revenue impact of minus 14.3 million euros overall, though this was partially offset by a positive price and mix impact of plus 4.9% or plus 10.5 million euros. As a result, the domestic mail revenue decline was limited to under less than 2%, roughly minus 4 million year over year, including around 2 million benefits from election mail campaigns, as I mentioned right before. For the parcels activities in Belgium, we recorded an increase of 10.1 million euros in revenue, or plus 8.7%. Parcels volume grew by 8.7% year-over-year, marking a strong uptick compared to the plus 2.9 and plus 2.5 growth in the first and in the second quarter. This significant volume growth was driven by a strong demand in fashion and apparel, supported by weather conditions prompting earlier purchase of winter collections, and the outperformance of major marketplaces like Amazon and Bold.com. Combined with the plus 2.7% in the first half, this brings year-to-year volume growth to plus 4.7%. Despite ongoing challenging market conditions, including a negative consumer confidence index and inflation in Belgium still exceeding 3% and facing continued upward pressure. As our volume growth was mainly driven by large volume customers, the price mix remained stable in the third quarter. On the front of proximity and convenience retail network, revenue decreased by a bit less than 7 million euros, with lower banking revenue offsetting the indexation of the management contract. And revenues from value-added services remained operationally stable mainly driven by fine solution and document management. However, this was offset by the repricing of state services, which is now accounted for within value-added services instead of in other revenue streams as in the previous year. Our personalized logistic revenue at Dyna remained nearly stable in the quarter. Let's move now to the P&L of last month on page 6. As just explained, our interest segment and other revenue decreased this year as they comprise a positive €5 million impact from the reversal of the repricing of the state services provision in the third quarter of 2023. Excluding this mechanical impact, we have on that line the €2.9 million higher interest segment revenues from inbound cross-border volume handled in the domestic network for the cross-border segment. On the cost side, our reported operating expenses, including DNA, decreased by 75 million euros year on year, reflecting last year's provision for the repayment of potential overcompensation to the Belgian state for the past. The adjusted OPEX, including DNA, remained stable, mainly driven by higher salary costs as our cost per FTE increased by 4% year-over-year, following the impact of two salary indexations in December 2023 and in June 2024, while FTEs remained stable despite higher parcel volume and lower intersegment corporate costs. Our adjusted EBIT declined by 29 million year-over-year, many due to a drop in price revenues and the absence of last year's 5 million provision reversal. While the nearly stable male revenues and the strong partial growing growth could not fully compensate the increased payroll costs driven by inflation. Let's move now to 3PL's section on page 7. The third sub-segment 3PL Europe comprises the European Activities of Radial and Activans that were formerly part of eLogistic Eurasia and Stasi Group. The second sub-segment, 3PL North America, corresponds to Radial US Activities, formerly part of eLogistic North America. 3PL revenues increased by 82 million but declined by 41 million or minus 15% when excluding the 123 million contribution from stasis consolidation in August and in September. In 3PL Europe, a constant perimeter, radial and activen cells were up 14% year over year, continuing the trend of previous quarters. This growth was fueled by customer onboarding as part of our international expansion efforts and upselling activities targeting existing customers. In 3PL North America, revenue decreased by 46 million euros. At constant exchange rate, this corresponds to a decrease of minus 18%, in line with the previous quarters. as the lower sales from existing customers and the in-year contribution of new customer wins cannot compensate the client churn we announced last year in the context of economic softness and market overcapacity, resulting in higher competition and pricing pressures for Radial and its peers. Let's move now to the P&L of 3PL on slide 8. Excluding Stasi, while the operating income decreased by 14.3%, our operating expense at DNA decreased by 15.6%, primarily driven by lower valuable OPEX in line with Radial's revenue trend and productivity gains across entities in Europe and North America, including a sustained improvement in radial US variable contribution margin. Our VCM has increased by close to 6% year over year and stands at its high level in third quarter, delivering an impact of around $13 million compared to last year. Year to date, this corresponds to a cumulative efficiency gain of 29 million. This efficiency gains helps mitigating the top-line pressures of the minus 40 million, and we see that a constant parameter, our adjusted EBIT, improved by 5 million to minus 3 million. Now, regarding Stasi specifically, EBIT contribution for August and September totaled 11.3 million with a margin of 9.2%. This is slightly below our monthly average expectation, primarily due to the seasonal softness of the summer months and challenging market conditions in North America playing a role here as well. As we previously discussed during our bond issuance in early October, Stasi achieved an IFRS EBIT margin of 11.6% last year, and we remain confident in reaching a margin of between 10% to 11% over the five months of 2024. Moving on now to cross-border business on page 9. The first sub-segment cross-border Europe encompasses BPOS domestic inbound and outbound mail and parcels activities along with European operations of Landmark and IMX which were previously part of e-logistic Eurasia. The second sub-segment Cross-border North America includes the activities of Landmark Global and Apple Express, which were formerly part of e-logistic North America. Cross-border Europe revenues rose by 4.6 million, or plus 6%, showing an acceleration from the plus 1.7 and plus 4.2 in the previous quarters of the year. This growth was driven by increased volume from China to Belgium, contribution from new customers as well as from continuous growth from recent customer wins in the European lanes. However, challenging market conditions in the UK and a decline in cross-border volume from Asia to destination other than Belgium limited further top line expansion. Similar to previous quarters, our top line in North America remains under pressure. cross-border North America revenues declined by 9.6 million or minus 15%, as Landmark Global reported its seventh consecutive quarter of year-over-year revenue decline. This drop is largely due to down-trading among existing customers, with only a few of our top 10 customers experiencing growth. and a limited contribution from new business as well as Amazon Insourcing, which began at the end of 2022 and is now stabilizing at just a few million. Overall, our global cross-border revenue decreased by 5 million or minus 3.5% year over year. As shown on page 10, our OPEX and DNA remain stable driven by a net slightly decrease in volume-driven transportation costs reflecting lower North American volume alongside higher volumes shipped to Belgium, and marginally higher salary costs tied to the ramp-up of international activities and inflationary pressures. Overall, from a profitability standpoint, the 5 million EBIT decline and year-over-year margin dilution reflects ongoing challenges at landmark US. Moving now on to corporate segment on page 11. External operating income decreased by 0.9 million euros year-over-year, reflecting the absence of building stakes this year, in line with our annual guidance. The net OPEX after internal revoicing and DNA slightly decreased by 1 million, mainly reflecting lower costs associated with compliance review from last year. This decrease was partially offset by inflationary pressure on payroll costs resulting from the two salary indexations I've mentioned earlier. Adjusted EBIT remains stable at minus 10 million, while reported EBIT was minus 18 million, reflecting M&A cost of 8.1 million incurred during the quarter. Then we move to the cash flow on slide 12. The main items to flag are the following. Cash flow from operating activities before change in working capital stood at 80 million and increased by 55 million versus last year, reflecting higher EBITDA this year since we had last year's impact of the 75 million provision for the repayment of overcompensation to the Belgian state. Change in working capital and provision stood at minus 8 million, reflecting a variation of plus 13 million year over year. Excluding the impact of the 75 million provision, the operational change is minus 62 million. This variation primarily stems from a shift in accounts receivable due to the domination of the price concession, which was typically settled in the following year and was still recorded on the balance sheet last year. The cash outflow from investing activities totaled 1,340,000,000 primarily driven by the acquisition of Stasi for 1.3 billion and capital expenditure of 43 million during the quarter. This item constitutes the main variation in our free cash flow and the net cash inflow from financing activities amounted to 952 million following the utilization of the 1 billion bridge financing to fund the acquisition of Stasi. Before we get to the outlook, I am pleased to report that within just three months of acquiring Stasi, we successfully refinanced the bridge financing through a 1 billion dual trench senior and second bond offering, featuring both five and 10 year maturities. This offering was met with an impressive oversubscription of 4.4 times. The 500 million bond maturing in 2029 carries an annual coupon of 3.29%, while the 10-year bond maturing in 2034 has a coupon of 3.63%. Both bonds are rated A- by S&P. Moving on to the outlook on page 13. As our segment structure has evolved, we are now presenting our outlook according to the new reporting format. With the performance of the first nine months tracking in line with plan, and based on our current views on the year-end peak, we are re-informing our outlook for 2024, projecting an adjusted group EBIT in the range of 205 to 230 million euro. The underlying parameters of the outlook shared with you in early July did not materially change. For the last month segment, we can confirm the guidance provided in July for Belgian business with no change to our mail and parcel volume assumptions or the financial impact tied to the new press contracts. The former e-logistic Eurasia and North America segment has now been restructured in 3PL and cross-border with revenue development and EBIT margin assumptions restated accordingly. In addition to the integration of Stasi in the 3PL business unit, we have also taken into account the additional challenges faced by Landmark Global within the cross-border segment. Finally, our CAPEX guidance has already been reduced from 180 to 150 million in July and we are maintaining this guidance. I am now ready to take your question. Again, two questions each. Please, so everyone gets a chance to get to be addressed in the coming 30 minutes. Operator, please open the lines.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. Thank you. We will now take our first question from Michael de Klerk of KBC Securities. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Yes, hi. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one would be on the new 3PL business and more specifically the North American segment. So now that you... brought us in this new 3PL segment, we can clearly see the margin evolution there, so quite striking to see that margins are going up despite the volume pressure, of course, if we adjust for Stassi. I'm just wondering, can you give a bit of an update, because you mentioned in the past that you will start onboarding more niche and smaller customers, and this will become visible as of next year. Can you tell us a bit about The phasing, I would expect most of the positive impact to be at the year end, but can you just walk us a bit through this and how this should translate into the three PL margins there? Because I assume given the variable cost savings, it should have quite a positive impact. And then my second question is on the recent news in Belgium. We have seen quite some complaints regarding the new press distributions from AMP and PPP. And they're asking for BPOS to maybe extend their service and not doing it via subcontractors. So could you maybe comment a bit on this and if you would be willing to postpone the timeline here and if there would be a financial impact from that. And Jen, just a very small third one. For the Stasi acquisition, I was just wondering, it looks like the Amware part is not part of the American business yet and it's still included in Europe. Can you confirm this or the reason why it's not in the US segment? Thank you.

Thank you for your question. I will start with the third one because it's a yes or no answer. So, indeed, Amware, which is now, that was the former brand name, now it's called Stasi Americas, is indeed well reported on the Stasi. That's the reason why we mentioned Stasi Group, meaning all the activities of Stasi. So, for the moment, we have left the Stasi Group in one block. under the management of Thomas Mortier. By the way, Thomas Mortier is managing not only the entire former Stasi Group, but also Regal in Europe and Activance in Europe. And in the US, Regal US is separate from the American activities. The main reason behind that one is that It's still different businesses in the sense that the portfolio of customers for Namware or Stasi America is still different than what we have in Regal. This being said, it's not because they are managed separately that we are not already implementing synergies, especially on the cost side. We already mentioned that some of the synergies that we could see within the acquisition of TASI were twofold. One being on the top line with cross-sell activities, and the second one being on the cost aspect, and the biggest one being the transport contract. And we are already migrating the TASI contracts to the radial ones. So these synergies are already in place. being implemented, sorry, not in place, but being implemented. You know that there are some periods you cannot shift contracts from one day to another one, so you will see these effects gradually in the coming quarters. Coming to the first question, which is 3PL NAM segment. Indeed, we see a pressure on the former, on radial US. for the reason that we have mentioned since many quarters, unfortunately, the fact that we have some customers who left us, and also, which is, I would say, different in scope, customers leaving, and we have the full year impact of that. We also see that the same store sale, so the sale for the existing customers, really going down year over year. By the way, this is something that our peers are also concerned And the signing of new customers, which is also part of your question, the reorientation, if you want, of the portfolio to move gradually out from big customers to mid-sized segments, is not able to compensate for the loss of the customers. And as we already said, and Chris mentioned it last time as well, that could portfolio adjustment will take time and we will see the benefits. We commit to have really visible numbers after the peak of 2025 and we have no change on that one. So that's for the top line, which is, let's be clear, it's not a good news, but it's no change compared to what we have seen in the past. And we have changed the strategy accordingly to move from the big customers to the mid-sized customers, and also to enter new segments, so not only fashion and health and beauty, but also entering into ones. This is on the revenue side. On the cost side, I really want to emphasize that, again, Radial's team has been able to manage its variable and its fixed costs. where you see that the variable contribution margin, both on the fulfillment activities and on the transport activities, are at its peak since many quarters now, and we have no reason to believe that it will change in the coming future. That's for the US. So now coming to what is happening relating to the press concession in Belgium. So, indeed, the press concession contract ended up at the end of July of this year. So, starting August, we are under another scheme. And there we need to make a distinction between what is happening in Wallonia, so the southern parts of Belgium, and what is happening in the northern parts of Belgium. Sorry, excuse me. In the northern part of Belgium, some of the volumes are being transferred either to PPP or to MP, so coming from B-Post, and we are still at the beginning of this transition. We have launched seven pilots, and we had agreed with the editors that the level of service for the first two months would be By the way, it's no different that when we are changing routes or when we are changing postmen during holiday periods and they are being replaced or when they are sick or going on training, replaced by people who are less familiar with the routes, it has the first day an impact. We have never denied that. We share that very transparently with the editors. And it's also important to keep in mind that we are still not at the end of the two months transition period that we had agreed upon with the editors. And we already see some improvements compared to the first weeks. On postponing any change, I will not comment. We have agreement with editors right now. Let's continue the implementation and If and when necessary, editors could potentially or not come back to us. But let's give us a bit of time to deliver qualitative services as we typically do for delivering mail and newspapers. It's again, I repeat, sorry to be heavy. We knew that the transition would not be easy. We're still not at the end of the first two months.

Okay, that's good. Thank you.

Thank you. Once again, ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. We'll pause for just a moment while waiting for them to queue in for questions. Thank you. We will now take our next question from Marco Limite of Barclays. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Hi, good morning. I've got a couple of questions and I apologize if those questions have been asked already, but I had some MIT issues for a bit. So the first question is Stasi. I think the run rate in Q3 for Stasi was a bit below the 8 to 9 million EBIT analyze. I mean, is there anything else in there other than Q3 being soft decisionality first question and the second question given the change in disclosure just checking how the underlying radial North America business is doing so is there any you know big change in trends compared to the previous quarters number one and on your US cross-border business, which has been affected in the past by insourcing, whether there has been any meaningful change there.

Thank you. Okay. Hello, Marco. Good morning. No, none of your questions were asked before, so I'm going to take them. Anyway, I would have taken them anyway. So, starting with Stacey. So, different element. So, Like in all the activities, we, in our, sorry, one, two, three, sorry, stop, rewind, play again. Like in all our activities, the third quarter is always a bit soft because of the summer months. It's not different within Stasi. Summer months are always soft. So we see some seasonality impact. That's true that this summer has been particularly soft, including at Stasi. and mainly driven by their American activities. By the way, more or less like what we are seeing ourselves. Nevertheless, we are very confident for the full year average, because you will recall that we had spoken about an average over the five months. The peak season is also of importance for Stasi in Europe, but also in the U.S., So we have no reason to be worried when it comes to that one. I would also mention, because this is more the top line, but also in terms of profitability measured at EBIT. Just want to remind that the profitability of Stacey in IFRS in 2023 was 11.6%. When we went to the market in October to market the bond issuance We have said that we would be thinking of reaching a 10 to 11% margin, EBIT margin in 2024. This quarter, which is particularly soft, we're at 9.2. So yes, we are a bit below, but nothing to be worried about. Of course, dependent of the fourth quarter, but this comment, I could make it for all the businesses, which is the impact of the peak. When it comes to US radial, unfortunately, a bit of the same story where we still being negatively affected by the trend of the customer that happened last year and this year, combined with a severe negative same-store sale. By the way, that same-store sale was, evolution was negative in 2023, sorry. which is still negative in 2024, which is not a good element, but we are not the only one facing that. Our peers also face the same kind of situation in the U.S. That's on the development of the top line. On the operational inefficiency, I would say they are still very positive news because rate at U.S. has reached its highest, sorry, variable contribution margin forever in the third quarter. So it's their continued effort of managing in an efficient manner. The cost, variable and fixed cost is still maintained. When it comes to LGI, so the US activities, we indeed see softness due to the loss of customers. And it has been indeed Amazon decided to leave us, announced they would leave us at the end of 2022. Now they're at the bottom, which is very marginal into the total top line, but we have not been able to onboard sufficient, sorry, a sufficient number of customers to offset that. And you have also to understand or to know that there is a fierce competition going on on the Canadian market. that makes the acquisition of new customers even more difficult than it was in the past. I think with that, I've covered your three questions, Marco.

You did. And if I can, maybe I've got a fourth, please. So you have announced a few weeks ago a stamp price increase for 25% to 3%, if I remember right. Again, I apologize if this question has been asked already, but... I mean, that sounds a bit lower compared to the single digit run rate that we've seen in the past. And yeah, definitely inflation is still, okay, has gone down, but still stronger than, you know, pre-pandemic or pre-Russian war. So yeah, why the price increase was quite lower compared to the historical rate of the single digit. Thank you.

So basically, the price increase, if I look at parcels, prepaid products would increase by 1.6% in 2025. Contract parcels would increase by 3.5%. And on that one, you know that there is a rule that we have to adjust our pricing based on the ITLB, which is Institut Transport Routier Logistique in Belgium, and we typically translate the increase of 80% of the increase of that index. So that's for the parcel side. So basically, it's driven by our cost evolution. The comparison with what happened in the past, it's a bit difficult for me, because we are looking at what is our expected evolution of cost. When it comes to mail, the average price increase will be 4.8%, that has been approved, by the way, same as for prepaid product by IBPT, by the regulator, which is always the result of two elements, the fact that the volumes are going down, and that we have inflation of cost. So we have applied, I would say, roughly the same methodology as in the past. It's also important to notice that as we have introduced that optionality two years ago, we could increase the price by an additional 3% in the course of 2025. Would the inflation indices or costs raise in the course of the year?

Thank you. Thank you. Once again, as a final reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. Thank you. And we will now take our next question from Mark Zwettenberg of ING. The line is open. Please go ahead.

Good morning, gentlemen. One question actually left for me. Could you perhaps give a bit more color on your partial volume trend? Because it was quite a good number over the average of the quarter, but you mentioned specifically September. We also saw at your peer that September was a strong month. So, yeah, well, September, can you provide a bit more color on exit rates, whether they were already double digits and what we're seeing going into Q4? Thank you.

So, thank you for the question, Marc. Indeed, strong performance on the parcel side. Some strong performance for parcels in Belgium. So, mostly driven by the big platforms. So, Bol and Amazon. So, these two platforms are really growing faster than the market. And since we are delivering their parcels, we benefit from the fact that they are outpacing the market. So very positive news on that one. I would say recent developments are still positive and of the same vein.

Is it indeed true then that September was double-digit? Because it must be, if you mentioned specifically September as being double-digit.

Yes, absolutely.

You're right. And given the trend of the larger platforms, is Should we expect still a sort of flattish price mix for Q4 or should we expect a bit more negative price mix?

Very, very good question. I think, as you mentioned it, if you've seen it, the price mix, in fact, price mix impact. I think the third quarter was negatively affected by the fact that big customers, typically the platform, taking more weight into the average portfolio, negatively affected. Would that trend accelerate again in the fourth quarter? Same cost would generate the same effect. And now if all the markets would go at the same trend, meaning the platform and the rest of the market, then there would not be an additional impact.

Okay, very clear. Thank you very much.

Thank you. And we will now take a next follow-up question from Michel, the clerk of KBC Securities. The line is open. Please go ahead.

Yes, hi. Thanks again for taking my follow-up question. I just wanted to return a bit to the radio in the U.S. because, yeah, returning to the fact that revenues were down at the one hand from the customer churn and the other hand, of course, from the same customer sales. I just wanted to check because if I look at it from the previous quarter, Q2 and Q1, I mean, your trend in terms of revenue growth minus 19 is roughly the same. But I think if I look a bit at the overall environment in the U.S. and what your peers, UPS and FedEx reported, there was actually a bit more of an improvement there in volumes, I should say. So I would originally expect that some of that improvement would be visible in your same customer sales as well. I'm just wondering why this is not the case. Is this also because... the same trend that you see in Belgium, the move towards these larger players like Amazon. So that would be my question. And then I have a very small one still on Stassi. Very useful that you provided the revenue and EBIT contribution for this quarter. I'm just wondering, will you continue to provide this info in the upcoming quarters as well, as I would expect most investors would like to see the evolution of Stassi in the future?

Thank you. Thank you for additional questions. So let's start with Radial. I think, as it has already been mentioned many, many times, and also by Antoine when he's in direct contact with you, we take the peers as a proxy for the market. It's not a like-for-like comparison because you know that we are heavily health, beauty, and fashion with it. while the competitors have a more broader portfolio. So a trend that you are seeing with them does not automatically translate in the same manner in our situation. And I think once again, it's the case in the quarter. So it's not direction, it doesn't go in the other direction, just that sometimes it's a bit more or a bit more or less on our side. because we are dependent on mostly two customer segments.