Canatu Oyj A Ord

My name is Mari Makkonen and I'm responsible for investor relations. Today, our CEO Juha Kokkonen will start with the first half highlights. Then our CFO Mikko Vesterinen will continue with key financials. And after that, our business unit lead Nedal Safvat will provide an update on medical diagnostics. Finally, Juha will discuss outlook and targets. At the end, we'll have plenty of time for Q&A. You can type in your questions in the event chat at any time. With that, let me hand over to Juha.

Thank you, Mari, and welcome also on my behalf. I will go straight to the key messages. We are envisioning here and seeing very rapid growth in artificial intelligence. And that is demanding, creating demand for advanced chips. In terms of the volumes, but in terms of the performance as well. Performance is needed to make these language modelings faster, as well as making it more cost-efficient manner, as well as making it less energy consuming. This development is a main driver for advanced chips that are all the time more and more advanced. And this is driving also demand for CNT pellicles. And CNT pellicles is a small essential part of this development. From the operational progress perspective, the major milestone during the first half of this year was that our first CNT reactor was customer approved. And it is now ready for mass production of CNT pellicle membranes. In addition to that one, we are negotiating new orders in the semiconductor industry with our existing customers. As you do remember, we have two reactor customers there. And in addition to that one, prospective new customers. and we have a project going on there as well. And this will enable that our position across the existing ecosystem remains strong, but we even say that it has improved compared to time of the listing. Our first half result was a disappointment to me. So our revenue was 7.3 million and that was down by 34%. This was caused by three main reasons. The reason number one is that semiconductor industry has delays in adopting these high power scanners. Secondly, what is more the Canada side as well is that there has been slower than anticipated customer approvals. And thirdly, we do see there are certain general market uncertainties that are related to the tariffs, also whether AI chips can be sold to China or not, or whether they have tariffs or not. However, we are investing heavily for the future growth as well as diversification. We are doubling our premises with new factory and enabling further growth. Secondly, we have done strategic long-term commitment for medical diagnostics. And you will hear today the Neral Safat, who is our new business leader, telling more about our strategy in this domain. Also, we are fostering new business development. aiming for faster time to market of high value application. And as you may remember, most of our applications, what we are selling today, actually the input to those are coming from the customers. And therefore, now we are establishing the team who can really handle those, understand the business opportunities, and provide a faster time to market for those new application domains. So as a top line message, despite of the delayed revenue, we have a competitive position in CNT Pellicle, and that has remained very strong. And I would say that it has been even improved. And the second key message there is that we are accelerating our investments in future growth. Secondly, I will look at some key drivers in this advanced chip business. So these advanced chips can be called also EUV chips that are 7 nanometer and below nodes. are the fastest growing segment in the semiconductor industry. Semiconductor industry in general is growing like 10% annually, forecasted to be $1,000 billion in 2030, and advanced chips are growing like double of that size. Now in this roadmap that you see on this picture, you see there the kind of that development of the ASML scanners to 500 watt to 600 watt and further, and how these nodes related to that one are developed as well. From Kanatu's perspective, the most important development here is that we anticipate, and the industry sources especially anticipate, that advanced chip manufacturing with 600-watt power scanners will start by 2027. And this is expected to be the inflection point for wider usage of CNT pellicles. However, based on our work, what we have already done, we expect that there will be already CNT pellicle usage with 500 watt scanners. And the main reason for this one is what we have been communicating earlier as well is that CNT pellicles are providing higher transmission and therefore productivity gains. Some highlight of our first half progress here is of course what we have been talking a lot is this first reactor customer approval. Reactor being now ready for pellicle membrane mass production. Before pilot and risk production, the first customer who we have there must still secure approval for the complete coated CNT pellicle product. After this is successfully done, as you remember from our business model perspective, Kanaatu will start generating revenue not only from the reactors, but also from consumables and sold CNT pellicles. We look at this picture also when we had our last year results, and what you can see here, the progress with the first customer that has moved from the customer approval process to that it has been completed, and they are right now in the process of getting the approval for the full CNT pellicle product. The second customer has been also moving from the delivery assembly phase to the customer approval phase. So both of these reactor deliveries have made significant progress. On top of this one, what I already mentioned there earlier is that we have ongoing negotiations for new reactor sales, both with our two existing reactor customers, but there has been also significant progress with new customers. We have a project going on there, and this way we anticipate and why we're saying that we have even improved market position in the CNT political domain. We are also investing heavily to the new business development, having the systematic assessment of new high-value applications. So we are accelerating with enhanced resources and dedicated team aiming for faster time to market of high-value applications. This is like the key element, if you think about that, we are delivering most advanced CNT pellicles, and this way we can address not only the current business domains, but also future business domains. Some of the key examples, what we already communicated during the first half, and I start from the right-hand side with this defense industry solution, where we began mass production of sensors protecting advanced electronic devices in the defense industry. This is the example where we are utilizing our existing capabilities and processes where this product is close to the touch sensors, where we have had opportunity to bring new solutions to the market in reasonably short period of time. Then the other type of example is now next generation solar panel applications where we are targeting to have with the new innovative stack involving CNT electrodes almost 40% efficiency increase for solar panels. So achieving up to like 35% efficiency there. So this is the example where CNT and where the development time will be longer and we expect that the revenue here will happen after 27. And now I'm talking like mass production revenue. We have been communicating about the significant development revenues already this year. And now I would like to hand over to Mikko to cover our financial results.

Thank you. Yes, like... Like I said, the first half, financial performance was disappointing. Operationally, the progress was good, and like I said, we see our position as very good. The revenue amounted to 7.3 million, which implied like approximately one-third of decline compared to the same period a year ago. And a cross-profit amounted to 4.9 million and the margin, cross-margin improved to 67.3%. The key drivers behind this revenue development or the first half revenue were good performance in inspection membrane business, the final revenue recognition of this first CNT 100 semi-reactor project and then the new joint development program in automotive business area with Denso. With regards to the margin development, I said that the gross margin improved compared to the first half at 24, and that was driven by the changes in the product mix. A year ago, the first half was revenue was largely influenced by the revenue recognition of the first two reactor projects. And as you remember, we explained in connection with the full year results that as these are the first two projects, there have been many things which we and our customers have learned during the process, and therefore they have had a somewhat lower margin than what we expect going forward. Adjusted EBIT, which is the key earnings metric what we are following in long term, declined obviously as well, driven by the decline in the revenues. And also we've been investing in the future growth and the headcount has been growing as we've been recruiting more people to the teams. Then if we look at the split between the business segments, our revenue continues to build, or the semiconductor continues to be the main revenue source for us. And the drivers there, as just explained, were the good performance in the inspection membrane business and this first reactor being now fully finalized. So 5.7 million of the revenue came from semiconductor, 1.6 million came from automotive and there the key contributor was this new JDA project with Denso. Medical diagnostics did not generate any revenue in the first half, but that's in line with what we've been communicating earlier. It's in the development phase, but we see that there's a good long-term value creation potential, and it is one of our key strategic growth areas going forward. This is where the main message is. Happy to answer then in the Q&A for any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mikko. I would like to next invite Nedal Safat to the floor. And Nedal has been running really significant portfolios on this medical diagnostic side, sizes being between half a billion and three billion. And we are very excited that, Nedal, you joined our company. Maybe I'm asking you that what inspired you to join Kanadu and what potential do you see here?

Thank you, Juha, and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present on the medical diagnostic business unit progress. As Juha mentioned, I've been in the medical diagnostic field for quite some time, over 25 years, and really with a strong passion to take technologies and enable the progress into development and to commercialization. I've guided several product portfolios from early concept development all the way to commercialization. I've also had the privilege of meeting different functions within the top large diagnostic companies in the industry. And across these roles, I saw their emerging field in medical diagnostic and how there's an emerging and evolving need in point of care. And the point-of-care medical diagnostic is really evolving to bring results closer to the patients, allowing faster results and improving patient treatment. And this is why Kanata's carbon nanotube potential and medical diagnostic could not go unnoticed. It was very obvious that after assessing numerous technologies, that I see the potential that Kanata's technology has. And really the unique differentiation and potential is on the technology's exceptional sensitivity, versatility to detect different types of targets, and the mass production capability that's already in place, which is very exciting to see. So the opportunity to lead this journey with a revolutionary technology and applying my experience to enhance patient care is really why I'm here today, and everyone. I want to share with you just real quick the point-of-care diagnostic market, what it is and how it's evolving. So just in summary, quick summary, the point-of-care diagnostic refers to medical testing that's performed near or at patient care, meaning the results are or the tests are happening close to the patient in a short period of time, enabling faster clinical decisions. This has had a significant impact on patient care in driving better clinical outcome, faster time to result, and more effectively, the ability to triage patient into the hospital, into the healthcare system, and intervene correctly at the right time. Not to mention also that we've witnessed the impact of point of care testing on public health surveillance and the response that we saw during the pandemic, which had a significant impact on our healthcare system. The point of care diagnostics has also had a significant adoption because it helps improve the economic aspect or the health economics of testing within a healthcare system. Simple test, easier, faster time to result and preventing the expensive lab equipment at the centralized lab. So our approach, our strategies is really simple. We looked at the technology that we have. We also did a market study assessing how our technology fits in the market. And while the potential is quite vast, there are different applications for point of care and the market continues to evolve at a rapid rate. Infectious disease hormone monitoring were two key areas that were very clear and identified as strong potential for us to enable our technology to provide the key advantages there. If we look at the global market, the global market is about 6 billion, with the US market over 50% of that. We see the demand. we see the evolving need and the key drivers that are pushing the point of care diagnostics. So we looked at how we can make sure that we have a solid roadmap that's straightforward and focused. And first, we evolved our hormone monitoring therapy as a proof of concept where we can build and show that our technology works for detecting hormone levels at the biological level. Second, We also have infectious disease that's in desperate need of evolving and building a test there. And third, we're accelerating our progress through strategic partnerships in the public sector and in the private sector as well. And I'm excited to share with you today two key publications that show the progress of the technology and shows that the technology is evolving quite fast. The first is for detecting circulating tumor DNA. And circulating tumor DNA are basically tiny fragments that shed in the blood as an early indicator of cancer. And we were able to show with our electrochemical biosensor that we're able to pick up the circulating tumor DNA at a very low level, showing the sensitivity and the specificity of our electrochemical biosensors. The second study was looking at testosterone detection, and we were able to show that we can pick up very low levels of testosterone at the same biological level that's typically tested in the central lab. Again, this provides a significant progress of the technology and shows that we have a strong potential to move forward in the point of care. This is an exciting journey, and the progress that we've made is incredible. promising, and confirms that we're on the right track. We've identified a clear market need. We have a versatile, powerful, and sensitive technology that enables us to transform patient care in the point-of-care setting. Thank you for your attention, and back to you, Juha.

Thank you, Neral, and thank you for joining Kanatum. I will next cover outlook and targets. So first, when we look at 2025 outlook, so Kannatu expects that our revenue, the full year revenue, will decline compared to our last year revenue of 22 million euro. If there is no new CNT Semicon Reactor orders received during the second half of the year, we can expect decline that is significant compared to the 22 revenue. In near term, we see certain factors, key factors that are affecting the revenue visibility and may increase the volatility of our revenue. There are mainly two elements of that one. The number one is related to our first customer rollout of the CNT pellicles and the timing of that one. And the second one is related to our second reactor customer approval timing. And as those are not fully in control of the Kanatu, we are not giving here any numeric guidance for the rest of the year. Then... However, when we look at the long-term financial targets, so we do see, like I said earlier, we see delayed revenue, but we do believe and we see that our competitive position is very strong and has even improved. So therefore, we are keeping our financial targets for 2027, which are like 100 million revenue and EBIT margin over 30%. However, the uncertainty concerning the timeline for achieving the long-term financial targets has materially increased. And the main reason for this one is this semiconductor industry delay in adopting high-power scanners. To achieve this 100 million revenue, we do see that following assumptions are highly important. Firstly, from the semiconductor side, that is the largest contributor of revenue. it requires that KANA disposition in CNT pellicles as well as in inspection membranes remains strong. Secondly, what we have been already talking about here quite a lot is that this ASML high power scanner deployment to start by 27 so that there will be volume generated for 27 as well as 28. And CNT pellicle, like roadmaps and industry is showing, is emerging as the primary solution for high power scanners. Second key point there is from automotive side that in addition to the camera heater mass production body we have started, we will see here ADAS camera heaters in mass production with our lead customers. And thirdly, NEDAL covered this new medical strategy there and the initial roadmaps there, so that proof of concepts, what we are developing there, are in progress and will start generating development revenues. We have now started the strategy process, where we are monitoring heavily what is happening on the marketplace. And as a part of this annual strategy process, after that one, when we have done decisions, and there are some very exciting decisions to be done based on the new opportunities, we will provide update on this topic to the longer term targets in our next annual Capital Markets Day that are scheduled to be held in March 2026. Then getting back to the key messages. There is a very rapid growth in artificial intelligence that is driving high demand for advanced chips that are getting more and more capable. CNT pellicles are expected, and I believe strongly that are a key part of enabling that future advanced chips. Kanatus position for those advanced chips in terms of delivering CNT pellicles and these reactors and membranes is very strong and has been improving based on the progress what has happened since listing in last year. We are investing for growth as well as further portfolio diversification. So firstly, we are doubling our premises with new facility. We have made strategic long-term commitment to this medical diagnostics. We have made also commitments for creating this new business development team. As you know, we are getting significant number of the new proposals of the new businesses. This team will accelerate our development and the time to market for these new high-value applications, and we showed a couple of examples there. So as a top-line message, what I would like to conclude and end here, Kanato's competitive edge in CNT pellicles has remained strong and improved, and we are accelerating further growth in the future businesses. Thank you very much.

And now it's time for questions. Let's begin with questions from the audience here at Sannomatolo. Valter, please go ahead.

Hi, thank you for the presentation. Valtteri Rossi from Danske Bank. I'll first start with some questions related to the market. You mentioned many times that your competitive position has even improved during H1. Can you kind of back up that claim? Why do you think that way so strongly?

The reason there is that we have made progress with our two existing customers. Secondly, in addition to those two customers, there is significant demand from other players in the industry to get Kanatus CNT pellicle membrane technology. that they can also provide solutions, CNT Pellicle solutions to the marketplace. So that's the key reason. And you may ask that, have we kind of continue that one? Have we lost any deals there? No, we haven't. So it's basically situation is that actually we are gaining even stronger position here.

All right, thank you. Based on your best knowledge, do you think that everyone who is testing or already using high NA EUV machines use CNT pellicles with them? Or do you know that there are alternative ways to kind of tackle the same problems or issues with the machine? And what are they?

Okay. First of all, what is very important to understand that CNT pellicles are equally important for low NA as well as for high NA equipment. So in both of these, in ASML roadmaps, you are increasing power to 600 and further there. So it's not only like... high NA game, which is very important currently as there is very low kind of the high NA equipment installed in the marketplace. Based on my knowledge, high NA equipments are not yet in mass production by any foundries yet.

But do you think that companies who have bought these high NA machines and already testing these machines, do you think that all of those have bought CNT pellicle supply or other solution for that?

Yes, so the current situation, what is in the marketplace is that The current established solution is composite solution, that is the technology solution, there is metal silicide. And that's the solution that is used currently in all mass productions, what are happening on the marketplace. As we were... communicating here that we are at the situation with our first reactor customer, that they have accepted our part of the deliver, and they are right now in the process of getting acceptance for the complete CNT pellicle product. So they are not right now yet used in full mass production with any technology. But like we said, We do believe that there will be usage with 500-watt scanners. And what we are saying that we do see, like industry showing in their roadmaps, that the transition inflection point will happen with 600-watt systems.

Okay, fair enough. There's been some speculation in the media that maybe Intel will split their design and manufacturing operations and that could have an impact also on the high NA adaption in the market and that way also in your relevant market. How do you see that potentially impacting your short and long term outlook?

I don't want to speculate on Intel's splitting and so on, but I can only say that I do see that there is similar demand and requirement by all the foundries who will go for these high power systems. and whether it is part of the Intel or whether it is somehow diversified from the Intel there. So I think that the kind of owning structure does not make any sense here. And like we said, based on the existing customers, what we do have, and based on the kind of the new prospects there, we, of course, kind of the target to kind of address entire market.

All right. Thank you. A few hopefully quick ones on the revenue side of things. The recurring revenues, and again with the timeline, has your assumptions about the lag from final acceptance by the customer to then moving into mass production changed since last time, and can you remind us what are we talking about here? How long will it take from the final acceptance to moving into mass production, you know, even a range?

I think this is something that is a process that is ongoing and we don't, I cannot tell you that it will take this many months right now. Of course, I do know the kind of plans, what are there going on, and how they are progressing. So therefore, what we have been communicating here, that we do believe that there will be CNT pellicles based on the Kanatus technology to be used already with these 500-watt systems, and basically with two nanometer nodes.

Okay. On the second customer, will they require exact same approvals as the first customer before moving into production? And do you expect to receive the final acceptance there still this year?

Sorry, the first acceptance. So customer requirements are not exactly the same. In this industry, you have basic recommendations and requirements that are coming from the ASML. So that is more or less seen like a minimum level there. But then we may have kind of different additional requirements coming from our customers, and the requirements are not actually exactly the same. And I do see that this Pellicle development is not like that, hey, when we get now the approval for this one, the development will stop. No, it will be like always in the semiconductor industry. There will be new coming requirements after this one. This is, for example, one example and reason why we did invest in this kind of the Pellmis system. that right now the requirement, what is there is like that you cannot have, you need to have zero particles that are larger than 10 micrometer, but there's clearly in the future coming higher requirements, and we have been investing that we will be not competitive in this point in time, but also in the future.

All right. Two quick ones. Would you expect that the existing customers make new reactor orders after they have finished the acceptances or only after they have been using the first machine in mass production?

I don't know precisely. I think that what will drive this one will be their capacity demand and how much capacity they will need and when. And so the more capacity in addition to the first reactor. So I think that that will be the main driver for the timing of ordering new reactors. Of course, then the customers are playing like risk games that, hey, am I happy already to make the orders when I have basically accepted that one? So I think that from our perspective, the key thing has been there that, hey, for the first customer, the reactor and the delivery according to customer requirements have been accepted. So I think from that perspective, they should be ready to move forward from Canada's perspective. I think that then the next risk level there from their side is what they are, of course, they need to make sure that when they are adding The full pellicle that has the coating and certain other kind of steps there further, those are in their control. But that's very much depending on their decision making there. But I think that the main driver for new reactors will be the capacity.

All right, thank you. Final one from Mikko, actually. How much was the revenue recognition from the first reactor sale in H1 this year?

We haven't disclosed that, because we try to preserve the pricing information, and that's quite sensitive from that perspective. It had like let's say it was important element for the first part, revenue, but how much it was from 7.3 million, that we will not disclose.

Okay, thank you very much for your answers.

Hi, it's Atte Riikola from Inderes. First about your sales pipeline, can you say anything about that, how many reactors we are talking about, if you say that your existing customers might order more and you have some new discussions going on, so any kind of numbers about the reactors that could be delivered in the coming years?

I think that, first of all, when we look at our addressable market, what we have said there, so that this, if we look at the EUV pellicle products, we are saying that the addressable market in 2030 with Scenario A where we have basically logic and only for the high power scanners, that market opportunity there is 1 billion euro. When we are talking about the wider coverage with the conventional equipments, as well as covering also more about memory markets, we are talking about 2 billion euro market there. For our current business model, that is reactor sales there, we have been communicating there that that market opportunity, addressable market, is like a couple of hundreds of millions. So I think that we have not been disclosing like number of the reactors there, but if you think about this couple of hundreds of millions and you somehow know what is our reactor price based on our first two reactor prices, you get the understanding that we are not talking about ones or twos, but we are rather talking about tens.

And if you think about your manufacturing capabilities, if we assume that you get a couple of more reactors, so how many reactors you can have under, or you can build at the same time in your current factories? Of course, you're now expanding.

In our current factory, at the same time, we can build two, but we have now this new factory, and you should not be worried about this one. We will have capacity to build reactors.

All right. And then about the investment in that laser tech machine. Does it imply that you are taking steps towards that you want to manufacture the whole pellicles inside your facilities?

These new requirements coming to the industry is that you are always reducing size of the particles. So that's like the current requirement coming from the ASML is that you can have zero larger than 10 micrometer particles. But we already do know that there are further requirements, and we need to have machines that even for our own reactor development, because this reactor cannot produce those particles either. So also for our reactor future development, we need to make sure that the reactors don't generate those particles, and we need to have a kind of equipment that we can measure that one.

And if you still think about the pellicle market for those higher watt machines, so is it like now the industry standard that the CNT will be the material from what the pellicles are made or is there any like competitive material that could still like compete with your CNT?

Yeah, I think if you look at ASML's even public roadmaps, so it is mentioned in there clearly that there this transition point is with 600 watts. There's advanced material flash CNT is the kind of the, we are not aware of any other like competing material to be part of this game at this timeframe. Like new competing material. Of course, we are competing with metal silicide that is the existing solution there.

Yeah. And last question from me about the, you have mentioned now that the market is like growing or moving forward slower than you were expecting one year ago. So is there any educated guess that how much the market delay is right now compared to your

previous expectation is it like one year or I think that you get a very clear answer if you look at ASML's roadmap end of 23 and if you look at the roadmap now like end of first half 25 and you compare them so it's more than 12 months all right thank you very much

Good afternoon, it's Matt Rikkonen, DAB Carnegie. A couple of questions. First of all, when you talked about your competitiveness and you said that you have not lost any deals, does it mean that some deals would have been awarded already or does it mean that you are still in the game and maybe some others have kind of been washed out?

That's a difficult question to answer without disclosing anything there. So first of all, clearly we have not lost any games. Then you can think about maybe what I could say is that there are some new prospective cases where where, okay, let's say that, okay, with new prospective cases, where we don't necessarily see CNT competition at all.

Right. So, so far you haven't closed any new deals, but you think that your chances of getting those new deals that are in the pipeline, they are better, because the competition is either smaller or lacking altogether. Is that correct?

Yeah, we do see that how we do see competition that are Lintec and Mitsui. How do we see them today compared to situation how did we see them like one year ago? We do see based on the interaction and projects with the customer that our competitive position is better compared to situation a year ago.

All right, fair enough. Then to perhaps simpler questions. You have now the two reactors in different phases of the acceptances from your customers. Of course, we would like to assume that the second time would be always quicker. So what kind of... kind of speed-ups could we be talking about for the second reactor acceptance phases, and do you see that it's developing as you previously planned, and how is it kind of going forward?

I think that we do see actually that the second reactor deliveries can be significantly faster for a couple of reasons. Firstly, As there has been this ASML requirements, so we had to deliver, kind of improve our product and develop still our product while we were manufacturing them. So that was kind of the one thing. Second thing is that we had to do customer-specific manufacturing. implementations that they are, for example, totally kind of interoperable with the IT systems or the robotic systems and automation systems, that were like one-time developments, what we have done right now. And of course, while we have been doing these reactors also and manufacturing them, we have also learned how to do it. Our supply chain has been learning how to do it. So we do believe that and also our customers, because there has been, for example, safety elements as we are bringing new ingredients to the factories. Those have been now gone through, they have been accepted, and so we do expect that the next deliveries will be significantly faster.

Right. And then if we talk about concrete timeline, we could roughly say that the first reactor took maybe 12 months to get the acceptances to the stage where you are now. So would it be that the next one would be done in six months? Is it possible? Or is the 12 months a realistic scenario?

I think that first of all, I think that we have been very open with this one that we made, for example, first reactor shipment we did August last year. It was approved now beginning of July, so we are talking about roughly 10 months to be precise. I think we have been giving these timelines here. So yes, I do expect that the second reactor approvals will be significantly faster.

And significantly meaning maybe half the time?

Could be.

Okay. Good. Then regarding the automotive business where you gained a new order and you showed quite good revenue in the first half, is that the revenue run rate that we should expect for the second half as well, or do you see that there would be an acceleration also in automotive revenue in the second half?

I think we have a quite good base for the second half, building on this exactly the same contract what we were talking about now, this development with Tenso. And then we have things there in the pipeline which hopefully we can close and start delivering. So it will depend on those, but I would say that the base is good for the second half.

So if I understand correctly, you would at least expect the same revenue in second half in automotive, and maybe if all things go well, an increase in that revenue?

Well, maybe I don't confirm your expectations, but I'm like, like I said, the base is good, and there's like things in the pipeline which we hope to still close before the year end.

All right, thank you. Then we didn't that much talk about your second factory ramp up. You said that it's going as planned. So when should we expect that it's basically in a position to take new or start delivering new reactors or building the new reactors at your site?

We haven't closed that information yet. We have been starting to build that factory and build the basic capabilities to this factory. I think that we will most likely in CMD or in the near future tell more about that one. So what is the timeline, what kind of investments we will do there inside. But I don't want to do it right now.

All right, fair enough. And then finally, It's a bit difficult to understand how your costs develop during the year, because you have been now hiring more people, you are doing more investments into different parts of your production and product development. So what would be a good guess for your cost rate for the second half? If we talk about fixed cost, of course. So in comparison with first half. So how much of an increase do you see that your fixed costs will have in the second half?

I would say that if you look at the headcount development, that gives a quite good proxy of how this fixed cost base will grow. So we now, at the end of the first half, I think we had something like 148 people, and it was like 20 more than a year ago, roughly. So that kind of felt like You can approximate from there how it will grow. I will not give an exact guidance for our cost base for the full year, but it's obvious for these reasons that we are investing in the future growth and the teams. So it's on the growth trajectory.

Right. And is it correct to assume that the headcount will still keep on increasing towards the end of the year? Or is it so that the first half end number would be the one that you still have at the end of the year? So how much of an increase do we see?

That's a good question. Of course, six months is reasonably short time in these recruitments. But I would expect that trend, of course, continues to grow, or we continue on the growing trend. How much it will grow in the second half, we will see then when we reach the full year. But I expect some growth there.

All right. Fair enough. Thank you. That's all from me.

Thank you very much. Good questions. Let's take a couple of questions from the chat as well. So first question to Nedal. Concerning medical diagnostics, why isn't tumor DNA detection one of your focus areas in addition to hormones and infectious diseases?

Very good question. So, you know, oncology applications or oncology diagnostics are, you know, quite a long journey and cost development is quite high. And that's why we decided to concept early stages and also understand how our technology has a strong potential for oncology over protection. But to put it in our roadmap, we really have to make sure that cost path and the development timeline and the regulatory registration are acceptable and within reach. And that's why we really can put it in the background we are understanding the potential of technology, but wanted to make sure that we don't hit the forefront with a significant cost, a significant regulatory registration requirement.

Thank you. Then a question about the industry's adaptation to high power scanners. So what drives that process and what could change the situation for better? Why is it delayed in your

The key driver, first of all, the key enabler is ASML 600-watt scanner. Timing of that one? That's kind of the key thing, and there are both low NA and high NA. Then the next thing there is that how fast that is deployed by the key foundries and creating demand. What is, of course, here very positive is what we discussed there is that the artificial intelligence, the growth is all the time very, very high. That is pushing the envelope on these advanced chips for the delivery better, so faster, more cost efficient, as well as less power consuming chips. So that is like the key driver there. So I think that From my perspective, the key is that, hey, ASML will deliver in time, and there's a high demand for advanced chips. That seems to be the case.

Then earlier you mentioned that there might be a possibility that Kanatu CNT pellicles would be also used in 500-watt scanners. But you also mentioned that it will improve the productivity, but you also doubted that the CNT pellicle would not be used because of the high price. So has something changed?

No, I think that... I don't remember what I have been communicating regarding the price there. So because pricing is not coming from Canada's side, I think that if I'm first commenting from the cost perspective, so this metal silicide process has over 100 process steps. it's very costly compared to the CNT process. Then it is the question that, of course, if you are delivering higher productivity scanner, it can be priced even higher price. And that is, of course, the question and decision of our customers, how they are priced. What was the first part of the question? Sorry, I forgot that one.

Do you still believe that CNT pellicles will be used also with 500-watt scanners?

Yes, what we do see on the market is that there are plans to use CNT pellicles with 2-nanometer nodes as well as with 500-watt systems. So the answer for that one is that yes, I do believe it.

Then ASML has stated in the quarterly reports that the advanced scanner market won't grow in 26. How Kanatu sees the future since high power scanner market is the main business for Kanatu? You have quite high revenue expectations for 27. Are you still relying on this expectation or target?

Yes, so like I said, we have still the same target, so 100 million revenue for 2027. What we mentioned there that, hey, it is now, there's a risk for the delay of that revenue has materially increased. And from this side, what we mentioned that what are the key assumptions that need to happen there? There are, let's say, the three key elements are there. Firstly, that our competitive position remains strong like it is today. Secondly, that this ASML deployment or development time and the deployment timeframe will have according to current plans. And then thirdly, that CNT pellicle will be the key solution for 600-watt systems. So those are the kind of the three key assumptions that based on those one and this happening kind of during this period of 26 and 27.

Thank you. And do we have any further questions from the audience here? Yes, please, Valter.

Hi, Valter Rossi from Danske Bank. One more question related to the recurring revenues. You said previously that those will be significant compared to reactor sales. So just to kind of understand that statement better, what is significant for you? Is 30% of reactor price recurring revenue sales a year, is that significant?

So first of all, from the total revenue perspective, further we go more we have installed base of Kanatus CNT reactors, the share of the recurring revenue will increase there. So that's kind of understandable. So now in the coming years, the reactor sales part, compared to recurring revenue part will be larger. And then over time, it will move towards more to be recurring revenue than the reactor sales. What is significant there? I don't want to give like the exact answer, but I think that it is significantly comparable to the reactor prices. So it's not like... magnitude of smaller, but it's kind of significant from that sense.

All right.

Thank you.

And maybe a final question from the audience.

Yes, thank you. Emily Munen from D&B Carnegie. One clarifying question on the reactor and the product that is produced with the already site-accepted reactor. So is the situation now that that customer is now producing kind of a proof of concept or product, which then their customer has to accept?

Correct. Correct.

And when that kind of proof of concept product has been accepted, if you would sell more reactors to that customer, they don't have to do this kind of product proofing anymore.

If they are kind of delivering the kind of same product, that's correct.

Okay, so it's kind of now you could ramp up kind of very quickly the consumable sales.

Correct.

Yes. Okay, great. Thank you.

That's all. Thank you.

Thank you. I will still kind of thank you for your interest here. And we will see you hopefully in March 3rd when we are going to announce our full year 25 results. And the second highlight, what I'm... Talking here is our Capital Markets Day, what we have planned to happen week 13 next year, where we would like to then open more about recent developments as well as certain strategic choices. Thank you for attending this one and thank you for very active questions and discussion.