Cyrela Brazil Rlty S/Adr

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Sorella Brasil Rio TSA's fourth quarter of 2024 earnings call. Today with us are Mr. Rafael Horn, CEO, and Mr. Miguel Mikkelberg, CFO and IRO. This call is being recorded and simultaneously translated into English. You can hear the translation by clicking the interpretation button. To those hearing the English translation, you can mute the original audio by clicking Mute Original Audio. You can also find the slide deck in English on the company's investor relations website at www.ri.serela.com.br. During the company's presentation, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. After the presentation, we will hold a Q&A session. To ask questions, please click the Q&A button and enter your name and organization. When your name is called, a request will pop up on your screen to unmute your microphone before asking your question. We would like to inform you that any statements that may be made during the call related to Sorella's business perspectives, operating and financial targets are projections made by the company's management that may or may not occur. Investors should understand that political, macroeconomic, and other operating factors may affect the future of the company and lead to results that differ materially from those expressed in such forward-looking statements. To open Sorella's 4Q24 earnings call, I'd like to turn it over to Mr. Rafael Horn, CEO. Mr. Horn, you may proceed. Good morning. We finished 2024 with operating and financial results that surpassed Cirello's historical landmarks, thanks to excellent execution. Despite the sector's unfavorable macroeconomics, bringing deteriorating expectations and asset prices in the second half of the year, the company grew in launches, resilience in sales and margins, in addition to positive cash generation. At year-end, launches came to 9.6 billion and sales to 9.3 billion, a 45 and 44 year-on-year increase, respectively. LTM sales speed increased by 8 percentage points year-on-year, ending the year at 55%. Four Q24 launches were a highlight, with 57% sold by the end of December, despite record-breaking launch volume. Cirella's financial performance followed suit. At year-end, net revenue came to $8 billion, 27% higher year-on-year, and gross margin came to 32.4%. Despite the growth in operating and financial indicators, SG&E expenses were kept under control, resulting in record-breaking net income of $1.6 billion. Also, we reached a satisfactory ROE of 20.9%, which gives us motivation to continue on this path. Even though we're expanding our operations, we managed to generate cash of 259 million in the year and return 373 million to our shareholders through dividends and buybacks. We also approved a new buyback program of 9 million shares planned to end on December 20th, 2025. We believe that Cirella remains well positioned in the market thanks to its qualified management throughout the entire customer journey. We are pleased with the 2024 results, but we know that the market can change quickly. Therefore, we reaffirm our strategy of focusing on differentiating products, making decisions based on the performance of each project. We'd like to thank all employees, customers, shareholders and stakeholders for their support throughout the year, and we hope that 2025 will bring good results. Let's move on to the operating results. Thank you, Rafa. We'll start with slide 4. In 4Q24, we launched 21 new products with a PSV of 4.9 billion in Cirela's share and excluding swaps, a number 184 higher year-on-year and 97% higher quarter-on-quarter. In 2024, the volume launched came to 9.6 billion, 45% higher year-on-year. On slide 5, you can see Vista Surella Tower Venezia, furnished by Armani Casa, launched in Sao Paulo, with a PSV of 1.8 billion. On slide 6, we'd like to talk about sales performance. In 4Q24, pre-sales in Surella's stake and excluding swaps rose to 3.5 billion, 93% higher year-on-year and 44% higher quarter-on-quarter. In 2024, sales volume came to 9.3 billion, 44% higher year-on-year. On slide seven, we'll address sales speed. The company's SOS in the last 12 months was 55%. Looking at sales speed by Launch Vintage, projects launched in 4Q24, as Rafael mentioned, have been 57% sold in the quarter itself, a very good number. On slide eight, we'll talk about inventory. At the end of the quarter, inventory at market value totaled 10.6 billion. and 8 billion in the company's share. You can see the change in our inventory on the chart. Now, slide 9, our finished units. In 4Q24, we sold 16% of the finished units at the beginning of the period. If we look at the projects delivered in the quarter and pricing of units and market value, finished units grew by 15% quarter-on-quarter, reaching R1.5 billion and R1.3 billion in Cirela's stake. Now slide 10, delivered units. We delivered 16 projects with a PSV of 2.3 billion on their launch date. In the full year 2024, we delivered 41 projects with a PSV of 5.3 billion. Now slide 12 with the financial results. Net revenue was 2.5 billion in the quarter and 8 billion in the full year, 27% higher year-on-year. Gross margin in the quarter was 31.9%, against 33.7% in 4Q23, and 33.3% in 3Q24. In the full year, Cirella posted 32.4% gross margin, very similar to the numbers in 2023, 32.7%. Now, net income and profitability on slide 13. In 4Q24, our net income came to 497 million against 248 million, 100% growth, and 473 million in 3Q24, 5% growth. And in the year, net income was 1.65 billion, 75% higher year-on-year. On the right, you can see our ROE, which was 20.9%. And that is the result of the last 12 months net income over the average shareholders' equity. Now slide 14, you can see our debt here. Gross debt at the end of the quarter was 5.9 billion. The cash position was 4.9 million. Therefore, our net debt was R$ 985 million. 85% of the total gross debt is long-term, and our net debt over equity ratio came to 10.3% at the end of the quarter. Now, slide 15, cash generation. In 4Q24, cash generation was R$ 61 million against a cash burn of R$ 94 million year-on-year and R$ 129 million cash generation quarter on quarter. In 2024, cash generation reached 259 million against a cash burn of 101 million in 2023. We can now go to the Q&A session. Thank you. Thank you. We will now begin the Q&A session. To ask a question, please click the Q&A button and enter your name and organization. When your name is called, a request will pop up on your screen to unmute your microphone. Please make sure to unmute your microphone before asking your question. Please stand by as we collect the questions. The first question comes from Mr. Pedro Lobato with Bradesco BBI. Good morning, Rafael and Miguel. Thank you for taking my question. Congratulations on the results. I have questions about margins. You saw impacts in your gross margin in the border, considering the mix of projects and your PSV. So, Miguel, if you can give us more color about the adjustments in the receivables, and also if you can share your perspectives about how much of the impact is due to the product mix, and also if you can give us more color of what the gross margin should be throughout 2025, that would be great. Thank you, Pedro. Well, As we said in the release, we said that we would have an impact from AVP and also the mix. And the vintage launched in 4Q24 was 31.3% in gross margin. But if we adjust that for AVP and exclude it, the gross margin would have been 34.5%, which is above the other quarters in the year, except for 2Q24. So the mixed impact was also caused by AVP. As we said in the release, AVP is the accumulated result. It was 40 million in the first nine months. And in the quarter, it was a very high number. So we calculated an average. of the quarters and the result was 0.4 million and the impact was 1.6 percentage points on our non-recurring margin if you will so that's more related to the avp if you excluded the margin in the vintage was actually very healthy now our expectations looking forward for our margins if you look back At 2021, 23, 24 as well, 22, the gross margin was between 32 to 34%. Those are the numbers we've been reporting. So I think that our gross margin should continue to be in that range from 32 to 34%. Of course, we're going to see some volatility, but that's the level that we are forecasting. Okay, thank you, Miguel. Next question comes from Mr. Elvis Crudendio with BTG. Thank you. I have two questions. The first one is your project pipeline for 2025. You said that you are excited about the projects coming in 2025. And I would like to know about the recent events, a deterioration in the macro scenario. So what is your confidence like? now going into 2025 i'd like to know if your expectation about the product mix and volume has changed at all and about land bank if we look at your land bank it doubled since the beginning of 2024 and that number is probably including only the uh plots for which you have the deeds and all the documentation But I believe that you are also negotiating, maybe you have contracts or option contracts for other plots of land. So I would like to know your perspectives about your land bank looking forward. Are you going to keep the same appetite? Are conditions favorable currently? And those are my questions along those lines. Thank you. Hello, Elvis. How's it going? Those are tough questions for a tough country, right? It's impossible to be excited here in Brazil in the long run. You wake up one day and you're excited, the next day you're not. We like the land bank that we have, we're excited about it. But the macroeconomic scenario really doesn't depend on us. So far, so good. In the first two or three months of the year, things are going well. Things are behaving the way we thought they would. If it's going to continue like that, we can't tell. We have to fight a battle, a different battle every day. For now, we have not felt any macro difference that would really... point to a different direction from what we have executed in the past. But again, things may change. I'm not a macro manager, but the macro scenario, of course, affects us. So I don't know. We have our land bank and we are excited about it, but we have to be concerned about the macro scenario. Interest rates are concerning, the economy as well. And we're doing the best we can. But the macro scenario really doesn't depend on us. But it seems to be okay. About doubling the land bank. And that's good news. I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know. And that's not really what we pay attention to. We like to... have meetings about those topics, about how our land bank compares against what it was in the past. But we discuss those things. to know exactly where we stand, where we are, and allow ourselves to dream a little bit. But we never buy land because we need to double our land bank. We don't think it works like that. We buy land each plot at a time. We don't have a target of doubling or tripling the land bank. We're going to buy the plots that we believe are good. And I do believe that we need to be careful about the macro scenario. The macro scenario affects our discussions about buying land bank more than launching projects. It is even more important to understand the macro scenario when it comes to buying land bank. It requires caution. So when it comes to land bank projects, We are excited about our land bank, as I said, but the macro scenario requires caution when it comes to launching new products, when it comes to sales. Okay, thank you. The next question comes from Fanny Orang with Santander. Please go ahead. Ms. Orang, please go ahead. We can hear you now. I apologize. Good morning, Rafael and Miguel. My first question is 2025 will bring a huge delivery volume. So if you can share with us your perspectives about cash generation and dividend payment. And the second question is about workforce. What are the challenges like right now when it comes to hiring workforce and What are your perspectives about the lower launch volume from competitors? Is that going to affect workforce at all? Thank you for your questions. Well, about cash generation, we believe this scenario will be very similar to what we said in November in our latest call. The range will be about 300 to 500 million BRLs for the year. Of course, there are variables that can greatly impact that number. For example, sales speed of finished units and launches, land bank. So there's always a degree of fluctuation that is relatively high, but the scenario has remained the same. Now about workforce. Indeed, we know that there is scarcity in the market. It is a structural challenge, but we have been maturing. We have been preparing ourselves, taking initiatives. So if there are decreases in the number of launches in the city, that is going to help us. the volume in high or mid-high sector in 2024 was flat. Stability tends to be a positive thing. It's hard to predict what's going to happen throughout the year. But of course, if there's a reduction in launches, that means that there is a reduction in the constructions around the city. So that makes things easier for us. And about dividends, can we consider a return of 30% or should we consider a bit more than that? That's hard to tell, Fanny. The minimum dividends will be substantial and the rest will really depend on cash generation. We are going to follow the same model. Towards the end of the year, we're going to look at the cash flow, assess the entire scenario and make a decision. And if we can, if there's room for it, we are going to pay more as we did in many years. Last year, due to the fluctuation in the share price, we decided to buy back shares. But we are going to follow the same strategy. We're going to monitor the results over the year and make the decisions towards the end of the year. Okay, thank you, Miguel. The next question comes from Mr. Igor Altero with XP. Hello, good morning. I'd like to talk about the low-income segment. There's been a discussion about the range of this bracket from 8,000 to 12,000 BRLs, and also the cap might increase to 500,000 BRLs. I would like to know your opinion. Do you think those measures are feasible, and how can they benefit vivas? Would it make sense to accelerate launches under Vivas, considering that scenario? Thank you. Hello, Igor. Well, it seems that the Minha Casa Minha Vida program has been in a good moment, in a good phase for a while. And it's not like we see news on the newspaper in the morning and schedule a meeting to change things. That's not how we work. We're in a good phase right now. We are growing in Vivas for a while now, but it's still a small business in the low-income segment. We have partners that are doing well. We are following the same direction. Those articles that you see on the newspapers about this are not going to change what we do. We had already been growing in Vivaz, but with not the ambition of being huge with Vivaz or reaching the same level as our partners. which are really the biggest players in the low-income segment. Okay, thank you. The next question comes from Mr. Tainan Costa with UBS. Good morning, Rafael and Miguel. I'd like to talk about credit to legal entities. What do you think about the bank's appetite about that type of credit and also the rates? And if there are constraints in that segment, what are the alternatives that the banks a company can consider to work around that constraint in access to credit. Well, the rates for legal entities and also individuals have grown a lot since the beginning of the year, and there's not much that we can do. The debt costs will go up because of that. But In our assessment, that is not going to impact our strategy or our appetite for projects. We're not going to change our strategy because of that. Our balance sheet is very solid. And secondly, we have funding alternatives accessing the capital markets. So I don't think we're going to change our strategy because of that. But yes, there has been a significant increase in costs and that has an impact on our return for sure. Thank you, Miguel. The next question comes from Andre Mazzini with Citibank. Hello, Rafael and Miguel. Morning. I have two questions. The first one is about finished units. You said that 32% of the finished units are in Rio and 23% in the south of Brazil. And historically, those numbers have been exceeding 30%. I would like you to give us more color about these finished units. Do they have lower liquidity and about HIS in Sao Paulo. We saw some news about the public prosecutors trying to or considering finishing those benefits. So I would like to know how that would impact vivas and the living segment. If you can give us more color on that, it would be great. Thank you. Good morning, Mazini. This is Miguel. Well, about the finished units. You mentioned Rio de Janeiro and the South region. Towards the end of the quarter, Rio de Janeiro had 25% of the finished units. And due to two deliveries, it went up to 33%. There are two specific projects involved here. And we believe that this year, next year, they are going to sell well. And Rio de Janeiro will go back to the normal levels. We should remember that Rio accounted for 22% of our launches in 2024. So 25% is really not a number that concerns us. Rio de Janeiro has been very successful. And we had issues with Finnish Tunis in the past, but we have addressed most of them. So it's not a major concern for us, although projects... The new projects sold less than we expected, but we are going to work on it and we don't think it's going to be a major concern. The South accounts for less than 10% of our launches and our inventory level there is a bit higher. We have some projects that have been struggling with liquidity. It's a problem that has been affecting us for a while. We have been trying to reduce it. But in that region, we have a liquidity issue that's a little more significant. About HIS, we saw a couple of things on the press about that. We were inspected. on a few occasions, which is natural. That is part of the regulation. And we provided our answers about the questions that were made. And so far, we have not had any answer. We were not fined. So looking forward, we believe that the regulation that is currently in force provides for selling units to low-income customers or you can sell those units to customers that are going to lease those units to families that are also under the the range that is covered by the program. So we are going to continue working the way we are right now. No changes foreseen. Okay, thank you. The next question comes from Ms. Carla Grossa with Bank of America. Hello, thank you for taking my question. I have two questions, actually. The first one is about your backlog margin. It's been stable for a few quarters now. Do you think there's still room for a backlog margin to grow? Or do you think 35% to 36% is the ideal level? Now, also about CashMe. If you can give us more color about its performance in 4Q24 and your perspectives for 2025. Good morning, Carla. This is Miguel. About our backlog margin, it's been reflecting our operations. It's in line with the reported margin. And if you consider the margins from 2021 through 2024, that's the level we have had. So we don't think that level will change in the coming quarters. And Rafa is going to address your question about cash me. Well, cash me did not grow that much in 2024 year on year. It's right about the same level. The ROE was 15 to 16% last year. It's not easy, of course. Our market is not an easy one, but the ROE is going up. We expect to improve it a little bit this year, try to grow a little bit more. But again, it's not an easy business, and it's not a business that we can scale up past. But it seems to be a good business. The ROE is at 16. It's lower than Sorella's. We need to work on it a little bit more. Okay, thank you. Rafael Reder with Safra will ask the next question. Good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. I have two. I'd like to know your perspective about your sales performance. You have been outperforming the... competitors consistently? Do you think that's due to better locations or maybe better brokers or maybe better products? Whatever color you can give on that would be very helpful. And the second question is about the ROE. Can you break it down between the different business lines? You finished 2024 with an ROE north of 20%. Is there any potential of improving your ROE in any of the different business lines? Thank you. About selling expenses online. When you sell well, it means your selling expenses are efficient. I don't think it's that related to our expertise in managing selling expenses. It's more related to selling well. You said that we are outperforming the competitors. I don't know about that. If so, it's a good reason for us to continue praying to keep selling well. But we have good competitors that are selling well as well. And... You know, we can't relax that there are competitors selling as much as we are. There are competitors that are not so good. But, well, again, when we have record-breaking events, selling expenses on the low side, it means that we sold more than expected. But it doesn't mean, it doesn't guarantee that it's always going to be good. But the best way to manage selling expenses is selling well. It worked last year, doesn't mean it's going to work this year in the same way. We are not relaxed at all. Every single day, we are trying to anticipate what can go wrong and doing what we can to sell well. So 2024 is over. Now it's time to look forward into 2025. Now, let me give you more details about the ROE in the different business lines. I cannot give you too much detail, but in 2024, one of the things that improved our ROE was the fact that the brands that have a good ROE, for example, Sorella and Living Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, those brands accounted for most part of the whole. They are the ones that grew the most. And I think we still have room to improve our ROE in the low-income segment. which was impacted by vintages that had lower profitability. But in 2023 and 2024 vintages, the profitability is better. And going forward, our perspectives are more similar to those margins. And that's all I can tell you about ROE. Thank you. Thank you, Rafa. Thank you, Miguel. The next question comes from Mariangela de Castro with Italo BBA. Good morning. Congratulations on the results. Thank you for the presentation. And I have two questions. Still about selling expenses. Although it went up this quarter, selling expenses compared to the volume sold reached its lowest point since 2021. Does that mean that we are going to have a structural level in terms of savings? Or is it a one-off situation? And also about the civil construction inflation rate, the INCC. I know that the high income segment is less sensitive to that. But how is it impacting vivas? And do you think it is causing any selling issues at all? Thank you. Thank you, Maria Angela, for your questions. First, about the selling expenses. Well, that record-breaking low level is much related to the denominator part of the equation. We sold a lot. We launched many products and we sold really well. We were very efficient in that line because of that. Looking forward, we know that in 1Q, we might shut down some sales stands because we don't have that many visits in the first quarter of the year historically. So we might see an impact in 1Q25, but it shouldn't be so significant. But I believe that you can expect some impact. Now about your second question about the INCC rate, it is a concerning topic for us. We saw a slowdown, especially because of the FX rate that helped us control the inflation rate. We have been struggling with inputs, but we are navigating it well. And the INCC is at about seven and the IPCA inflation rate is about five. The gap is not so big. Therefore, over time, that can reduce affordability because the income proxy is more limited. indexed to the IPCA rate, although the wages have been growing. And so far, we have not seen any impact on sales. We had much more impact when the INCC was 17% per year in early 2022. So it is a problem that concerns us, but we have not seen major impact so far. If I can follow up on that, is the inflation gap growing as compared to the INCC rate under the VVAS segment? It's actually a decreasing gap. For quite some time, our costs basket exceeded the INCC rate. Now it's pretty close to the INCC rate. So right now, we don't see a growing gap when our internal inflation is higher than the INCC. That gap was increasing, but since last year, we don't have that increasing gap anymore. Okay, thank you. Now, the next question comes from Gerald Gilotti with Goldman Sachs. Good morning. I have two questions. First one is about ROE. You said that ROE can continue to grow. So I'd like to know the drivers behind that. Would they include better pricing power, lower selling expenses, changing your mix? And when you look at the company today, do you have a target for a structural ROE? Those are my questions. Thank you. How's it going, Jorrell? Well, I think Miguel misspoke. I don't think we're going to be able to grow the ROE even more. I didn't even think we would be able to reach 20. It's at a good level, in my opinion. Of course, if it improves, it's great. But I don't think we can expect that in our segment. And Miguel said that La Viva's ROE will improve. I hope it does. But as it improves, on another side, it might decrease. And we are not going to give you any ROE guidance for as long as I'm here, at least. We are always worried about Brazil. And a 20% ROE is very surprising to me. I was not expecting to see such a high number. in my lifetime. So it's better than we expected. We can't double the target now. This number is good. And again, we are working every single day very hard and the ROE is just a consequence. We don't have a structural target for our ROE. And Miguel said something that's very right. The ROE in the low income segment is better than the mid to high range. So if we sell, the ROE is going to improve. But you shouldn't really expect an ROE guidance north of 20%. And if you look at your net debt, it's at 10%. Of course, interest rates are high in Brazil. But when we look at your track record, it used to be 20% to 30%. So should we understand that the company is right now at a moment where you... believe that we are going to keep 10%? Or should we expect you to go back to the past levels? So I would like to know more about what can we expect in terms of net debt. Jorrell, this is Miguel. Good morning. About the net debt, it's been quite a while that we have been operating below 30. And indeed, that was a historical level until 2016. But then there has been a downward trend, and then it stabilized at 10%, a little bit more, a little bit less. We like to operate with low net debt, but on the other hand, we should remember that the screenshot is different from the film, right? Net debt can quickly increase if you don't sell well. Thankfully, over the past years, the screenshot shows us that it's 10. But if you look at the film, it seems to be higher than that. And we are always considering a conservative scenario. so that we can optimize our capital structure. So we are always going to be more on the conservative side as regards our leverage. If it increases, that's just because the operation is growing. It's a natural result. Okay, thank you. The next question comes from Mr. Marcelo Motta with JP Morgan. Good morning. I have a follow-up question on financing. Miguel said that rates for individuals went up. We saw announcements by Caixa Econômica Federal in the beginning of the year. And I understand this is not a concern to you, but it really impacts the sector as a whole. and people have been repaying their mortgage debts quickly. So I'd like to know how that impacted your selling dynamics, if there has been any impact at all. Thank you for your question. Well, about cancellations and transfers, the financing rates for individuals increased across the board, not only Acacia, but other banks as well. And so far, we have not seen an increase in cancellations or delinquency. We continued with the same pace in transfers. The team has reported that we need to contact more banks to get approvals, but we've been able to navigate this situation relatively well. In terms of sales in launches, we increased our rates. We did not feel any impact in the launch sales. And for finished units, the customers need to get credit approved right at the moment where they are buying the units. And we heard reports about that from the sales team, but we have not seen any changes in the numbers. Indeed, the increase was significant. We need to monitor this increase throughout the year, and we're going to bring you more information when we have it. Okay, thank you. This concludes the Q&A session. I'd like to turn it over to Mr. Rafael Horn for his closing remarks. Well, I said earlier to Jor-El that I never expected to see a 20% ROE in my lifetime. There was an ambition that I had, of course, but I did not place my bets on that. Of course, you have to shoot for 20 and you're really going to deliver 15. But thankfully, things worked out well. And now we need to fight to keep that same level. But we don't really wake up in the morning to reach a high ROE. We need to use our potential, the potential of our employees to work hard and deliver. And the consequence of that is a good ROE. If it's good, it looks like the efforts are paying off. If it's not good, it seems to us that our efforts are not leading anywhere. We are happy about this number. It's not easy to reach for sure in this segment here in Brazil. I would like to thank and congratulate every employee including in the construction sites, our interns, analysts, coordinators. This is the result of a collective dream. There is a lot of sweat, blood, and tears put into this. And this is the merit of each and every employee at Cirilla. The management are the least involved in this. So congratulations on the incredible success result and we dreamed about this and it worked so let's continue to dream and maybe we'll be able to turn it into a reality thank you so much everybody see you next call this concludes sorella's earnings call for today should you have any questions please contact the investor relations team at ri at sorella.com.br thank you very much for your participation have a good one