Dsm-Firmenich Ag S/Adr

Good morning and thank you for joining today's call. I'm sitting here with Dimitri de Vreese, our CEO, and Rolf Smijts, our CFO. We published this morning our first half results together with a presentation to investors, which you can find on our website. Here you can also find our disclaimers about forward-looking statements. Dimitri and Rolf will start by making some introductory comments on our results before we will open the line for questions. Important to remind that sell-side analysts who want to ask questions have to register via the questioners link, which they can find on our website in the financial calendar. If they've not done so yet, you can still switch. And with that, let me hand over to Dimitri.

Yeah, thank you, Dave, and good morning to everybody. A pleasure to see and hear you on this call. Before we zoom in on the results, I would like to zoom out a little bit first to put things in perspective. within our journey to bring progress to life. Let me start with the journey, and I'm not going through the whole capital markets presentation, but I want to say a little bit the coloring of the context where we are today. So merging two iconic companies together, we're starting the integration and also the start of the vitamin transformation program. And you've seen in our first half results that we are quite well progressing according to plan. The integration booked for 50 million in the first half and the vitamins in the first 45 million in the first half, helping our results for the first half. So we're really on track with these two important programs. Then the focus, as we've announced earlier this year, carving out ANH. I'm happy to say that we are making really good progress in 2024. Remember, 2024 we'll use to carve out ANH to be ready for a transaction to be executed in 2025. And on tuning, remember in the Capital Markets Day, we highlighted five segments where we feel that they would benefit in a different setting, where we really focus on the consumer businesses with higher growth, resilient margins. We have announced two deals, the yeast extracts and marine lipids. in a way that we think we can capitalize on the value. A yeast extract deal with a good deal with a player in yeast extracts, the software securing ingredients for us in a capital light way. And with marine lipids, really working together with KD Pharma, where we continue to have a 29% stake, where we can capitalize on the synergies and prepare for a stage exit, really valorizing on the value of that business. Then we have a third segment, which we have pointed out with the agro-ingredients. We'll continue to work on that and obviously we'll communicate when we have a final outcome there. And then we have aroma ingredients and non-differentiated vitamins. These two segments will go with the animal nutrition and health scope. so quite some progress also on the tuning actions which will mean that we could accelerate our businesses and we've said earlier we will grow what we have i think q2 is a good reference for that we anchor what we do and we're going to deliver on our promises and i'm very happy to say that q2 in terms of growth and an eboda is a good reference on what we're trying to build and then if we go through a little bit the group financial highlights On the next page, you get the highlights on the overall first half. You see a strong improvement of the financial results with exceptional strong growth in perfumery and beauty, including a good contribution from recovery and ingredients. Strong performance on taste, texture and health. Health, nutrition and care return to volume growth on higher demand of dietary supplements and a significantly improved results in animal nutrition and health with good growth, strong growth and performance solutions and higher vitamin profitability. Well, having said that brings me to our outlook. Based on this positive momentum continuing as well into the third quarter and our commitment to deliver the 200 million adjusted habitat contribution from the synergy program and the vitamin program in 2024, Although we need to remain cautious if we look at the end user data towards the end of the year and where our customers operate and shoot reference to, we do feel with that momentum that we should upgrade our full year outlook and we've done that by bringing it from at least 1.9 billion to an adjusted EBITDA of around 2 billion for 2024. And with that, I hand it over to Ralph to give a bit more color on the financials and the businesses.

Thanks Dimitri and good morning to all of you and happy to see you virtually just ahead of the summer break. Let's start with H1 results as usual. We provide the splits around top line and bottom line and give you some insights on the moving pieces. And what is worth highlighting here is that whilst H1 is still impacted by a vitamin effect, we actually saw that turning to a positive contribution in the second quarter, where you see a reduced impact, negative impact, where Q1 was still impacted by 80 million. We see a less impacting Q2, which is supporting our results on the back of the good and positive momentum in vitamins. Now, looking at top line, let's start at the first line in the P&L. So overall organic growth for the half at 4%, 6% volumes. And again, in the first half, we have the impact of Pinova, the site that got lost last year. It will be the last quarter where this impact is there. If you factor that in, volumes would be up 7%. That has translated into a step up in into EBITDA as well, supported by also the benefit from the programs coming through. So both the synergies and the vitamin transformation program added 95 million in terms of EBITDA in the first half. And we also saw a step up in margin. So if you look at the half and we'll look at the quarter in a second, you see a sequential step up in margin of about a percent. But also comparing into the second half of last year, you almost see a 2% step up in margin. Like I said, the overall half is still impacted by a negative FX overall about minus 25 million versus prior. And the net vitamin impact in the quarter is about 65 million negative, leaving a good step up organically with a very good contribution from PNB and TTH. And we see the momentum turning in H&C and A&H with a good step up in profitability. But we'll zoom in on the BUs a little later. Then let's look at the quarter, the most recent one on the next page. Overall, P&B and TTH have very strong performance, and I'll come to that in a second. Overall, as a group, we had the 7% organic growth, fully volume-driven. Volumes were up 9%. Again, adjusting for P&O, they were up 10%. which is a very nice step up. And also the EBITDA is 26% up versus prior year and margin is to 16%. Continued positive momentum and positive development on that side as well. The overall FX impact is about minus 10% for the quarter, but like I said, the positive momentum and vitamins offset that fully in the quarter. Now let's look at the individual BUs for a bit more color on the individual performance and how we landed each of the quarters. Starting on the next page, please, we start with P&B. And P&B had a very strong performance in the second quarter, especially as this is normally seasonally a little quieter quarter. Overall, very strong volume growth. Volumes were up 17% in the P&B unit, adjusting for Pinova even higher. There's a 2% impact from that. Somewhat lower pricing, predominantly in the ingredient space. on the back of the pass-through of some lower input cost. But all in all, a very strong quarter from an organic growth perspective. That has translated into a step up in EBITDA on the bottom line. So overall, we landed the quarter on 220 million of EBITDA, a step up of 30% versus prior year, which is a very satisfying outcome. Overall, the margin in P&B also very strong. The half landed on 22.6 with a somewhat lower margin in the quarter on the back of mix, but also some cost phasing between the quarters. And we also experienced a one-off cost in the range of 5 to 10 million, impacting the margin in the second quarter. But all in all, a very strong performance for our perfumery and beauty business. Then turning to taste, texture and health on the next page. Also a strong quarter in the second quarter. Also very strong volume increase. So the organic growth for our TTH business was 11%. With 12% volumes, overall price is fairly stable. And also here, both divisions performed very well. So both the taste and ingredients divisions delivered a double-digit increase, benefiting from a strong demand and catch-up effects following the destocking of last year. And here we also see the first benefits of the sales synergies actually coming through. Overall, EBITDA was up 16% in TTH, driven by the strong top line and cost synergies, up to almost 160 million. And also here, the margin is back up to 19%. You heard Dimitri say, here we also concluded... The deal around yeast extracts giving us a strategic benefit on that side and a capital efficient structure going forward. And it will be also supportive to the margins of TTH following closing, which is expected prior to the end of the year. Then turning to H&C on the next page. Here we highlighted an improved momentum at the end of Q1. We also see that into Q2 with a good step up in profitability, but also we're back to growth in H&C after a few quarters of negative growth. So overall organic is 1% with volumes up 2% led by dietary supplements, which is showing good growth, especially in the algae omegas that we see strong demand. early life nutrition is still characterized by a bit of softness and and destocking and i health continue to deliver a strong quarter in in the second quarter as as well overall ebitda versus prior adjusted for fx is is flat where the benefits of the programs and synergies are offset by cost increases however important is the sequential step up in ebitda and there we saw a nice step up to 94 million coming from 79 in in q1 overall in in hnc also here as dimitri said the tuning well advanced concluding the deal on marine lipids and also that will be positive towards the margin following closing when we go into 2025 Then last but not least, animal nutrition and health. Here we see a continued strong performance in performance solution. Again, a quarter of double-digit growth on the back of a very strong 2023 and also start of the year. So that is very encouraging. And we see nice growth in that business. Premix showing growth as well. On the vitamins, we remain cautious. We continue to prioritize our cash performance as well and control inventory levels. However, we're encouraged by the positive momentum in vitamins as well. So we see that. But let me at least make a few comments around that as well. Pleased to see vitamin E stepping up. That is a contribution when some of the other vitamins, it's still a mixed bag. And prices are not yet at the level where they should be. And we expect a continuation on that front. Profitability increased nicely as well within the quarter. So overall EBITDA is up to 63 million, a good step up sequentially from Q1, but also versus prior at a low of 17 million. And here you see the benefit of the programs coming in, as well as for better word, easing of the vitamin impact. We see the tight turn. uh had the we hit the bottom and we're climbing our way back up on on the back of positive momentum here as well overall it translated into a margin of eight percent and continued recovery to be pursued in animal nutrition and health now uh looking at the four businesses how does that then translate into the overall p l and you see that on this slide and we see a nice flow through of the step up in ebitda all the way down to two earnings per share And we have a little lower depreciation and amortization as well in the half. In H1, we had a few small impairments. So obviously that is contributing to a nice step up in earnings per share as well. And also our Phenix is very much in line with the guidance, actually a little below. And again, we have a benefit versus prior. Prior was impacted by the energy derivative. So we see a nice step up in earnings per share for the half. up more than 50% versus prior. Now, then how have we done on cash on the next page? Overall, continue to pursue on our cash ambitions. We're committed to that. Let's start with working capital. We see a reduction in working capital. So the percentage landed a little over 30%. Now, in all honesty, there is a bit of tailwind from the shift of the two businesses to animal health for sale. Adjusting for that, we would have landed in the low 31s, which is an encouraging step up. And you have to keep that in mind whilst we're growing the business. We have a very strong organic growth, especially in the second quarter. So around receivables, we see a nice step up. Our DSO is very much under control. But obviously, when the receivables go up, fueled by growth, we don't necessarily have an issue with that. Inventories remain under control. You have the seasonal build up in the first half as well. We're getting ready for the summer stops, especially in the vitamins where we might also prolong the stops a little. So there you see some inventory build up. But compared to the year end position, inventory is very much at a similar level. Now, that all translated. Before I comment on the overall cash flow, let me highlight also CapEx. Overall, CapEx landed at 5% of sales. We remain prudent and disciplined on that. But here also, typically, our H2 is a bit higher than H1. That then translated into a good step up in cash flow in the half. So we landed at 460 million of adjusted free operating cash flow, which is 175 million more than last year, 60% up, a cash conversion of just under 50%. And again, usually we see a better step up in the second half, given that we then see the unwind of the inventory bill that we have typically in our businesses in the first half. That brings us to the overall outlook for the year, around 2 billion. I'm not going to repeat Dimitri, but we see the continuation of the benefits of the programs, 95 million in the first half, 200 million for the year. And also the positive momentum allows us to increase the outlook overall to around 2 billion. Some housekeeping rules as well, very consistent, no change there, all coming in in line as the previous guidance indicated. And let's then see how that translates into the overall debt position and the outlook for the year on that front. On the next page, we've seen an increase in net debt to 3.4 billion, very much in line with expectation as in the guidance for the year. The big cash outs are typically in H1. Last year, we saw the dividend actually move to July. But here we're back to the normal rhythm. It's paid in H1. which represents the largest cash out in the first half. But also we completed the squeeze out for the minority buyout, leading to a further cash out and some hedges. So very much in line. And we also guide for rebounds in the second half on the back of strong operating cash flow, as discussed before. Overall, our debt will land within the guidance of 1.5 times EBITDA, as highlighted before. Let me pause there and Dimitri, give it back to you for a few words on sustainability ESG.

Indeed, Raoul, thanks for that. I think we're a people, planet, profit company, so I think good momentum on profit. I also have to proudly say we also have good momentum on the people and planet front. Here you see a few of our targets we've set on the people part. Safety is improving. The lower number, the less number of recordables we have. although we're not happy with we are today still i think it needs improvement and the only engagement that was the engagement done in january we did it on the annual basis but you still see that our people are very much engaged and buying into the value of bringing a company that brings progress to life On planet, happy to say that we have reduced our scope one and two emissions. You can see it here, 21%. That's the combination. And therefore, you see that in the first half, we did a lot of work in getting the data transparency there. Also happy to say that we made a step up in terms of purchase renewable electricity, 88 to 92%, with a set target to be 100% in 2025, in line with the climate targets, which we have submitted to SBTI for full validation. Which are fully aligned with the Paris decor to one and a half degrees and we're waiting for that validation And hopefully we can announce that that quickly but that's a process where we want to have external validation on on our roadmap I think it's clear to say that also on the Sustainalytics and the MSCI, we get strong ESG ratings, low ESG risk from Sustainalytics, the AAA score on MSCI. We continue working on our sustainability profile going forward because it's part of who we are. So with that, an update on people, planet and profit. I give it back to Dave to open the floor for Q&A.

Thank you, Dimitri. Indeed, we are ready for Q&A. So let me remind you that the CELSAC analysts who want to ask questions in this session should have registered via the questions link and they can still do that if they have not done that yet. Let me check with the operator if you're ready to start with the Q&A. Operator?

Ladies and gentlemen, we'll now begin our Q&A session. If you have a question, we ask that you please use the raise hand function at the bottom of your Zoom screen. Once your name has been announced, you can ask a question. If you want to withdraw your question, please lower your hand using the raise hand function in the Zoom app. Our first question comes from Charles Eden at UBS. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Hi, good morning. Just checking you can hear me okay.

Loud and clear. Good morning, Charles.

Yeah, morning both. So just two questions for me, please. Firstly, on PMB, an extremely strong volume performance in the quarter. Could you please help us break down this 17% volume growth between the three business units, so perfumery, ingredients and beauty care? Because obviously very, very strong volumes. My second question is on vitamins. And I know soon enough, we won't have to talk about vitamins in any meaningful way. But given you mentioned the 15 million benefit from improved vitamin profitability in A&H and Q2, Could you help us understand what benefit you'd expect from Q3 and Q4 on current spot prices? Or maybe you can confirm the sensitivity on your analyzed EBITDA for every $1 per kilo move in vitamin A and vitamin E prices. I think on legacy DSM, you used to refer to about a 20 to 30 million annual impact, but maybe you could confirm or deny that. Thank you very much.

Yep. All right. Let me take those two questions. Thanks for those questions. P&B, I can be short. Perfumery, beauty and care, and ingredients, all three had double digits. So it's nice to not make any distinctions. So that to your background on volume growth. In terms of vitamins, let me take some time to that because I think it's good to understand. First of all, in the context of what we're building as a company, remember any vitamin questions are linked to a strategic context where we decided to carve out ANH to reduce the volatility of vitamins. Nevertheless, I think it's important to understand a little bit the setup and I want to take some time to do that. So first of all, on the vitamins, and I'll come back to some of the sensitivity in a minute for Charles. So what we see is that spot prices are going up. And you also need to remember that spot price is not that immediately impact into the contract. That takes a little bit of time on A&H. It's quicker than on H&C, but it takes time going forward. By the way, we've seen the same when they were going down. So it's a dampening effect. secondly you need to be aware that um if you talk about the category of vitamins um we bring it down from around 15 post a and h to seven eight percent and with the tuning we'll bring it more into towards five percent but uh from these vitamins and we have 13 plus number of vitamins vitamin e and a are are important vitamins in terms of impact and if you remember well we always said that um On vitamin E, one euro is about 50 million on an annualized basis. So that is something you need to be aware of. So let's look at vitamin E a little bit. Average 23 was about 7.5. Average H1 was also 7.5. But we do see momentum on the swap prices going to 9.5. So Q1 and Q2, you don't see that huge effect, but you see the positive vitamin effect has more linked into the costs. Vitamin A, however, that's a big chunk of it as well. And remember, prices were at 50, 60 and were normalizing on average at 22, at average 20, 23 prices. H1 was around average around 20. Spot prices indeed are now into the 22, but it's basically at a level where we're not seeing very sustainable volumes and profitability. And that's also why we continue having the shutdowns in system in Q3, by the way, where vitamin A and E asset-wise are linked. So that a little bit on the vitamins and then the components, what to expect. So we see on the vitamins different components. So first of all, it's the cost and the cost program. And that is helping us in the first half and that will continue in the second half. Secondly, you have the idle component also linked to volume. We're still very hesitant on the volume. We're also holding back a little bit. We need to be careful there. So idle and volume component will not help us in the second half. The pricing component could be, because if you look at the spot prices, the vitamin E prices will help us into the second half of the year, more into the last quarter four than in quarter three. But it's vitamin E. Remember, vitamin A and the others, you see some uptake. But if you compare to year on year, that's not really helping us. So let's be careful that we see a positive momentum. That's good. But if you make the calculation for the second half, vitamin E will help us a little bit. And one euro is about 50 million on an analyzed basis. So if you take the seven and a half on average to nine and a half current spot prices, it's two euro. which will mean 100 million annualized, and we'll see that affect predominantly into Q4. So a few tens of millions help towards the second half. However, we're happy with the positive momentum to set that aside. A bit of a longer story on vitamins, but I think it's important for us to shape the context a little bit.

That's really helpful. Thank you very much.

Our next question is from Nicola Towing at BNP Paribas. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Hi there. Thanks for taking the question. I wanted to ask a little bit about volumes in general, but I suppose particularly around PMB and TTH and the strength there. I was wondering to what extent this reflects underlying demand versus potentially some restocking and what volume assumptions are you baking in in your upgraded guidance? And then a sort of, you know, second question, but linked to this, you talked about, you know, continued momentum into Q3. Last quarter on the call, Ralph, you gave some helpful color, basically running through each of the divisions and what you were seeing in terms of current trends and sort of order put patterns by division. I was wondering if you could do the same again. Thanks.

Yeah, let me take the businesses along and then hand over to Ralph for the upgraded guidance. So first of all, on P&B and TTH, you were asking about restocking. Unfortunately, I have to say that if customers are ordering, they don't indicate whether it's restocking or whether it's normal or whether it's innovation. So that feature maybe we should think about, although I'm not sure whether our customers really know themselves. But let me share just a little bit of feel we have. So it's not rocket science. It's a bit of a good feel we have. So let's go through P&B first and then TTH. What do we see in P&B? We do see that the percentage use of fragrance in end products, certainly post-COVID, has increased. So that help is overall in terms of growing the cake. Secondly, what we've seen that the innovation pipeline is being filled and that basically fragrance use in new product launches are there. And that also means that our customers are looking a little bit about their value chain. And remember last year, maybe there was a bit of destocking. That certainly is not the case anymore. And maybe we even see some restocking. I think we should not deny that maybe some restocking is taking place in perfumery and beauty. And then last but not least, in the ingredients part, remember, we have perfumery, we have ingredients and beauty and care. The ingredients part, remember, was a bit soft in the last one or two quarters. We have our improvement program running and we do see that ingredients businesses are normalizing a bit and therefore we see that good momentum also in Q2. And for perfumery and beauty, we do see that momentum going into Q3. So I think we're confident. One of the reasons why I think we also upgraded our outlook. TTH, a little bit the same story in terms of restocking. Also there, I think restocking has faded and maybe some restocking is appearing. Full innovation pipeline. We see the first benefits of the sales synergy on predominantly the cross-selling. And we also see the effect of the choice to play in the blue ocean space. So, if we go to the sugar platform, the plant-based platform, if we develop ingredients with our customer to reduce sugar in their formulations, sugar is pushed out. We're not part of the sugar market. So, it's growth. It's blue ocean growth for us. So, overall, I think that works in our favor with the synergies. but typically also our regional growth with our regional player where we have a global regional approach in our taste, texture, and health business for the whole taste part. So that is on TTH. So on health, nutrition, and care. I think we see a good business in biomedical and eye health really continued their strong performance. Pharma and medical are continuing that. Dietary supplements, we see an improved business condition. We already highlighted, I think, that in quarter one when we saw the AC Nielsen index data improving. We see now that also in our portfolio and we see that continuing in TPO3. Early life nutrition is an ongoing destocking. However, if you look at the innovation pipeline, also the HMOs, we do feel after that, destocking will fade away somewhere, somehow. But in Q2, we did still see some destocking near the live nutrition place. We see that H&C is on the right track. The quarter two is back to a positive organic growth. And then A&H, I think we discussed about. And having said that, build that down into the outlook, Ralph, why did we upgrade our outlook?

It's a good question. Obviously, we're benefiting from the momentum in Q1 and Q2. We also see that. To your question, Nicola, and thanks for that, what have you baked into the outlook? We see the good momentum in PNB and TTH continue into the third quarter. That is obviously something that we baked in. In these businesses, you also have to take into account that Q4 is typically the weakest quarter in the year. You see continued good growth into the third quarter and normalize that in Q4. If you look at H&C, there you typically see biomedical and iHealth having a strong step up in the second half with iHealth typically having Q4 as the strongest quarter as highlighted before. So there on the back of some easier comms, we have good growth in H&C as well. And on animal nutrition, there is an improved momentum, but we're going to be careful in terms of volumes. We want to see the prices go up for vitamins, as highlighted by Dimitri, I think, gave an elaborate overview on how the vitamin dynamics actually are. A&H typically has a stronger second half than first half. However, keep in mind that we also have the stops in the third quarter typically impacting our EBITDA as well. So that is all included in the outlook with obviously a continuation from the benefit of the programs.

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Our next question is from Matthew Yates at Bank of America. Please unmute your line and ask your question. Go ahead, Matthew. Our next question is from Eric at Van Langshot Kempten. Eric, please unmute your line and ask your question. Eric, please go ahead. We'll move on to Artem Cheburov. You are up next at Redbird Atlantic. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Hello and good morning, everybody. Just to check if you can hear me well.

Luckily, loud and clear. I was worried. Yeah, three in a row wouldn't be too much.

Thank you. I've got one on perfumery and beauty volumes, obviously some really impressive number on volume growth, but just to understand the moving parts in Q1, you have volumes up 4%, and now you have volumes up 17%. What has been the difference between those two? Because if I recall correctly, in Q1, you mentioned stepping away from some non-profitable activities, which I presume might have kept the volumes lower. Is that the only reason why the volumes have moved up so much, or is there anything else behind this? And the second, a very quick one, on the net debt slide 13, is that including or excluding the hybrid, the number you have on the slide? Thank you.

Yeah. All right. Let me take the PMB volume part. I mean, indeed, if you have a step up from plus four to plus 17, it needs to be across the board and it is across the board. I remember it's a big step up in the ingredient recovery and normalization, but it also has to do with, I think, great performance in beauty and care and perfumery. Remember, in Q1, we basically said we have a full order portfolio and also a full innovation line. So we were pretty confident that Q2 will bring in. And let's face it, you don't need to look at one quarter as being the proxy of the valuation business. I mean, we have innovation pipeline and order pipeline, and sometimes you win a brief, which you best deliver at the end of June or in beginning of July. So you need to look at the overall trending. And I think if you take Q1 and Q2, I think overall that gives you a good proxy of what our innovation pipeline and briefs look like. So I'm very happy to see that. But in Q2, all three businesses brought it together. And that makes the step up.

And then on the net debt? Yeah, on the net debt, that's excluding the hybrid. So that is consistently excluded in the overall overview, as we usually exclude that, given the equity credit of the rating agencies.

Sounds good. Thank you very much.

Our next question is from Isha Sharma at Stiefel. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

hi good morning just checking if you can hear me yep loud and clear perfect um just two questions from my side one is very straightforward on the guidance why not at least 2 billion and around 2 billion instead and the second question would be on um the volume momentum you have we have seen it obviously it was it surpassed market expectations and especially at the two divisions mentioned also before. Why don't we see the volume leverage translating to sequentially higher margins? And this is especially the cases at taste, texture and health, please.

Okay, let me, so we turn it around. I will do the outlook and then Rolf will do TTH. So on the outlook, around is around. And like Rolf was said, there are things about the second half where H1 normally is a bit better than H2. We have the vitamin price momentum. We have the growth elements where Q3 we have to stop. So let's not repeat all of that. Normally, the perfumery in beauty and TTH have a quarter four is the weakest from all the quarters in there. So we also don't want to say rocket science. So around is around. And I think yeah cementedly it's around and then maybe on the volume part with the leverage on tta

Yeah, so overall, we're happy with the performance development in TTH. So we see a continued absolute step up in EBITDA as well. And the question on the margin is that you have to look at it over across a couple of quarters where we're also in TTH. We saw margins being impacted. And if you go back to Q4, we were at 70% and then sequentially we moved up. So it's always difficult to track on a quarter to quarter because it also depends on that you encourage or incur some costs around some of the stops and the like. So that is something that is impacting these numbers as well. But overall, we are targeting a continued improvement there. And the margin is now back up to above 19%, which is something that is a good starting point for TTH. And we'll continue to see progression there. So with the tuning of the portfolio as highlighted before, following the exit of yeast extracts, we'll see continued improvement in line with the guidance and margin bridge that we also showed at Capital Markets Day. So it's very consistent with that, but it's also not a straight way to heaven where you see an improvement month over month. It's also very much impacted on the seasonal effects of how we run the business.

Thank you very much.

Our next question is from Fernand de Boer at DeGroof Petercam. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

I don't have a problem with muting.

Fernand, please go ahead. Our next question is from Chetan Udeshi at J.P. Morgan. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Hi, can you hear me? Yep, yep.

Morning.

Now we can't hear you anymore. Hello.

Hello.

Yeah, you're a bit scrambled.

Can you hear me now? Yeah, perfect. Okay, sorry about that. I don't know what's going on. But just on guidance, you know, the H2 implied is just over a billion. And I think you mentioned about the seasonality in Q4 tends to be slightly weaker. So is it fair to assume you are looking at Q3 maybe something close to 540 million or so and then step down or you expect a more even split between Q3 and Q4 even also you talked about possible help from vitamins in Q4. And the second question was a bit more straightforward. The two asset sales that you announced recently, a good progress there in terms of asset sales. But you've taken an impairment and I've seen you have a table at the back showing the net assets of the combined core, which tends to be or is close to be 150 million euros. So is that the kind of ballpark you are now expecting even that you in terms of sale value, given the fact that you've written off the value of at least one of these assets or you think you can do much more than that? Thank you.

Okay, rather than the acid impairment, I can be short on the guidance. We do an outlook for the full year. I don't feel compelled to do an outlook per quarter. If you may, I think we gave some highlights. And the impact on what to expect for Q3 in terms of stops and business and what to do for Q4. The full year outlook is around 2 billion. I would like to keep it that way. Rob, on the impairment?

Yeah, so well spotted. So the overall asset value is indeed, I think it's 178 million. So it's closer to 200 million. But in terms of... Impairment, let me comment on that. So you have to look at it. The asset value is actually the combined value of the yeast extracts and the marine lipids business. Now, we took an impairment on marine lipids, obviously, in accounting world. you carry the goodwill uh from from history as well and whenever you do a divestment you need to allocate the goodwill of that proportionally and that has impacted or basically triggered that that impairment of of about 90 million on on the business now it's not representative the asset alpha sale is not representative of value because i mean overall Like I said, it represents both businesses and also whilst we took an impairment on marine lipids, yeast extracts profit can only be taken at the time of closing. So we do expect more than that combined value for the transactions.

Thank you.

Our next question is from Georgina Fraser at Goldman Sachs. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Hi, also checking that you can hear me. Excellent. Thank you. I haven't thought very how to articulate this question very well. So bear with me. What is the regulation? It was a good start, right? A good start. So what is the regulatory or policy backdrop that you might be seeing with relation to potential tariffs in vitamins? Just thinking about how it's, you know, a very concentrated market in Europe and there isn't really any production in the US. Is that... Are there assumptions that you've made around the evolving environment? Are you seeing, at the policymaker level... Any considerations about tariffs for vitamins versus the Chinese competition? Thank you.

Yeah, well, I think it was well articulated. Thanks for that. So we did not make any assumption on it because I think it's difficult to make any assumption on it. But if it will be implied, it will work positively for us.

Okay, so sorry, you're saying it would be... Sorry, I didn't hear the end of your answer, Dimitri.

If it will be implied, then it will be positive for us. Because I think 75% of the vitamin production is made in China. You know that we have closed our B vitamins and vitamin C in China. So we have some vitamin production left, but we also have European base. So you will get a different balance, which will net-net really help us.

Okay, great. Thank you.

We didn't factor anything in because, I mean, you don't know what's going to happen. And in all fairness, to build a strategy on import duties, I don't think it's very wise either.

Fair enough. Thank you.

Our next question is from Alex Sloan at Barclays. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Yeah, hi. Morning all. Just two clarifications for me. The first one, obviously, EPS in the first half, you know, beat quite nicely versus consensus, obviously, in part on the operating result, but also in part on the lower financial expenses. In the housekeeping guidance, you've not changed the guidance on that. You know, does that imply that there's a kind of a catch up in the second half or can that below the line tailwind carry through to the to the full year? The first one and then just on the second one, thank you very much for the moving parts on the ANH outlook. Just wanted to clarify in terms of the stoppages and the impact there, would that be would that be expected to be higher year over year in the second half? Thanks.

right let me take the first one on uh on on eps so uh indeed we haven't changed the outlook uh or the the guidance or housekeeping for that matter on some of them if the question is specifically around the phoenix i think you can add the guidance to the h1 reference and then then you're there for the year. So we benefited a bit in H1, but expect that to normalize around to 35 million a quarter. So overall, the year is somewhat better than four times the guidance that we gave at the beginning of the year. So not necessarily a catch-up effect to be expected in the second half. Dimitri, you want to take the way?

Yeah, on the stoppages in the Q3, remember last year, We already deliberately made an extended shutdown. That was an extended, extended shutdown. We're currently having an extended shutdown. But we will watch a little bit what's happening in August to decide how long we want to extend our shutdown. So I can't give you directly the answer to it. But prior year, it was already an extended, extended shutdown because of the vitamins. Depending on how the vitamin prices are moving, we will decide somewhere throughout August whether it should be extended or not.

Thanks very much.

Our next question is from Matthew Yates at Bank of America. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Hey, gents, trying again. Can you hear me okay? Yes. It worked. Perfect. There we go. All right. A couple of quick questions just around margins, please. On fragrance, the margin went backwards a little bit sequentially. The top line didn't. Ralph, you mentioned some cost items. Could you just elaborate a little bit why there is that phasing? And if you're describing something as one-off, why that wasn't treated as an exceptional? And then on the human business, nice that we're back to volume growth, but margins are still far, far below average. the 20% plus level that this business used to operate at, how much of that delta is dependent on vitamin price recovery? And what are the other things that are more controllable, whether that's sort of the portfolio pivoting or anything else, just to get us back above 20% margins in human? Thank you.

All right, let me comment on the fragrance piece. So overall margin dropped indeed a little in Q1. So overall, the phasing is more often related to production. The big driver is also obviously the mix where whilst we focus on value and ingredients, we saw a good underlying demand in many of the segments that had a little impact on the margin. At the same time, we saw some production costs typically in the second quarter where we have a bit of stops in some of these plans as well. The one-off is more related to the implementation of a system upgrade in our DRT business. It was anticipated and we basically take those costs as part of normal activities. So despite the fact that it's a one-off cost from a business perspective, this is not something that is exceptional and ordinary and should not be taken out of our running results, hence it's in the margin, explaining a somewhat lower margin in the quarter. But again, looking at it on overall, a very nice step up in P&B, and that is something that we continue to move on forward. um with respect to agency does that depend on vitamin recovery no i think what we explained is that part of the impact in vitamins is also on the back of the volume growth so now with dietary supplements on the on the way up that's going to be supportive but obviously we're also allocating these uh these costs across the divisions uh that have an outlet for vitamins. So on the overall volume development, that's going to help restore the margin. But here we also see good growth opportunities in biomedical, eye health, pharma. That is something that we're focused on in terms of upgrading our portfolio and the tuning effort in that sense helps as well. So if you look at the margin buildup and bridge that we presented at Capital Markets Day, very much focused on all of these areas where on the one hand we're improving our cost base and vitamins and that will drive it up. So it's not necessarily dependent on vitamin pricing, although that obviously helps, but it's more volume driven. And at the same time, we're focusing on optimizing and growing the portfolio where we see an above average margin in the agency portfolio.

We're approaching 10 o'clock. Perfect. Thanks, Raph. One last question, a quick one, before we round off. The last question.

Yes, our last question is from Fernan de Boer at Digos Petercam. Please unmute your line and ask your question.

Can you hear me now? Yes, yes. Super. Yes, okay. Very good. I have actually a couple of questions, but On the fish oil prices, why cannot, because these are already high for a very long period, why cannot you pass this on to your customers? And at the same time, I guess in fairer maras, you should have the benefits of this very high fish oil prices. It could help you to try to increase the price of the algae-based oil. So could you explain?

Yeah, absolutely indeed. So fish oil prices are high. We have passed them on to customers, so don't worry. But what we've seen is that the customers have passed it on in their end products and that consumers say it's too expensive and no longer buying it. And so good luck. So that was a bit the value chain next to the fact that these fish oil prices remain on a very high level because of the structural overfishing of the ocean um and that's also why strategically we've chosen to make the deal uh to to exit that business and capitalize it by the deal on kd pharma um and we are benefiting from that on vera maris um vera maris is uh is is doing very well it has growth it's uh it's about 100 million a couple of tens of millions towards 100 million of sales in terms of growth It is contributing positive EBITDA. Remember, it was one of our innovation big tickets before. So we do see the benefit from that. The only disadvantage is and was that the marine difference business was still slightly bigger than our Viramara's business. So net-net, it was negative for us. But strategically, going forward with the deal we've made for KD Pharma and the accelerated growth on Veramaris, this will help us really strategically in terms of our growth, in terms of our margin. And that's exactly why it fits into the future of the SM family. So I think it fits your question with the background, fits with the fact why we made these strategic choices while going forward.

And with that, Dave, I think we've fully consumed our time. We promised to stop in time. Rolf, any closing remarks?

Yeah, just maybe quickly. Well, thanks again, everyone, for joining on the closeout of an eventful H1. Like Dimitri said at the opening, we announced our strategy, made great progress with the A&H separation. We signed two deals around yeast extracts and marine lipids, progressing nicely on the tuning. And we've seen the business momentum pick up with the strong growth in the second quarter and That coupled with good self-help, we saw a nice step up in sales, EBITDA, and cash. We'll continue that journey going into the second half, and we welcome you all back after a well-deserved break for all of us. And we're going to see you at roadshows or at the next earning calls. And with that, Dave, thanks.

Yeah, let me then thank all of you for attending today's call. As always, please, if you have any follow-up questions, other questions, reach out to the Investor Relations team. We're happy to take your calls and your questions. And with that, we can end this webcast, and I give the call back to the operator.

This concludes today's call. Thank you, everyone, for joining. You may disconnect.