Durr Ag Spon Adr

Welcome to the dual conference call for the third quarter of 2025 followed by a Q&A session. Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Matthias Christen.

Thank you very much and welcome to today's call, ladies and gentlemen. The corresponding presentation is available on our website and I assume you have it in front of you. Our CEO, Jochen Weihrauch, will start on page five before Dietmar Heinrich, as CFO, will take you through the financials. Jochen, please go ahead.

Thank you, Matthias, and good afternoon to all participants on the call. As our main focus is on profitability, I would like to start with pointing out the high earnings level in Q3. The EBIT margin before Extraordinaries increased to 6.6%, which is almost two percentage points more than last year, based on earnings growth in all of our three divisions. In the year to date, the margin amounted to 4.9%, which means that after three quarters, we're almost at the midpoint of the full year guidance. Order intake continued to be impacted by heightened macro uncertainty caused by geopolitical and trade conflicts. However, we expect Q4 to be much better. Sales accelerated in Q3 after the moderate first half and should gain more traction in Q4. Free cash flow continued to be strong in Q3 bringing the year-to-date figure to a high level of 85 million euros. The recent months were also marked by pushing ahead with our sustainable automation strategy. We successfully closed the sale of environmental technology and thus completed the process of turning Dürer into a lean company with only three instead of five divisions. At the same time, we began to streamline our administration aiming at cost savings of 50 million euros. The guidance given in March and partly revised in July is being conferred. Let's turn to page six. Regarding the 29% drop in order intake in the first nine months, please keep in mind that last year's figure was extremely high due to unique 500 million contract and further large orders. Sales were slightly lower than last year. We saw sequential improvements in industrial automation and woodworking in Q3. Automotive should benefit from an accelerated execution of large projects in Q4. Already touched the positive trend in operating EBIT. With regards to earnings after tax, please note that this position is burdened by the 120 million goodwill impairment in Q2, whereas last year's figure included a $19 million book gain from the sale of Agamco. Adjusted for both special effects, net income was up a good 50% this year. Slide 7 shows the same key figures for the group as a whole, still including the discontinued environmental technology business. Page 8 shows our quarterly order intake. After a decent start to the year, defects from the high level of investment uncertainty in Q2 and Q3 are plain to see. However, there were some positive aspects in Q3. Industrial automation recorded appreciably higher order intake than in Q2, and in general, I would like to emphasize that despite the macro turmoil, customers are not paralyzed. Many of them are pushing ahead with large investment projects, and the pipeline looks solid. This is true, for example, for strategic projects in the automotive industry, but also for HOMAG's timber house construction business. Q4 has the potential for several large orders if our customers stick to their time. Let's move to regional order intake on page nine. New orders in Germany dropped sharply as last year's figure was boosted by the huge 500 million euro contract. The increase in Asia without China was driven by India and Saudi Arabia, which has become a very attractive market for DUR. Next one is the automotive division on page 11. Two-three order intake was marked by the absence of large orders, but this does not mean that there are no such projects being planned. It's rather a characteristic timing issue of our plant engineering business. There are quarters with no large orders and there are quarters with several big ticket orders placed all at once. The EBIT margin before Extraordinaries exceeded last year's high levels in Q3 and in the year to date based on the good margin quality of the order backlog. Revenues were up sequentially in Q3 and should further accelerate in Q4 as the execution of large orders is speeding up after customer-induced delays in the first half. Page 12, please. Industrial automation saw a good Q3 with order intake and sales clearly exceeding low Q2 levels and returning to the encouraging Q1 level. BBS automation picked up with continued strong MedTech business and improvements in the auto business. The EBIT margin before Extraordinary almost doubled year over year and clearly exceeded the poor Q2 level, spurred by volume effects and the recovery in service business. Please note that for nine months figures, there is limited comparability as last year's figures still included the Agramco Group that was sold on July 1st, 2024. Reported EBIT was burdened by the 120 million euro impairment in Q2. As the battery business has been suffering from poor market conditions, we initiated restructuring Q3 to lower fixed costs. Slide 13 is on woodworking. The division has implemented a number of self-help measures and thus successfully strengthened earnings resilience. This is testified by the fact that the operating EBIT margin increased by almost two percentage points on slightly declining sales in the year to date. Water intake was impacted by the tariff uncertainties causing additional investment restraint in the furniture industry. As of now, the exact timing for market recovery is hard to predict. This is why WOMAC's improved earnings resilience is so important. Looking at the timber house construction business, the outlook is brighter, as we see an increase in demand and good opportunities for large orders, in part already in Q4. Slide 14 gives an overview on environmental technology. As this business was effectively sold two weeks ago, There's no need to comment on the figures. Next one is slide 15. Service sales recovered in Q3, beating the Q2 level by 14%. Under the impression of the tariff chaos, many customers immediately cut service spending in Q2. So it's good news that there was sort of normalization already in Q3. Now it's time to hand over to my colleague, Dietmar Heinrich, who will explain the financials.

Thank you, Jochen, and a warm welcome to everybody also from my side. Let me start with slide 17 and our key financial indicators. As Jochen has already touched a couple of them, I will limit myself to gross profit and net income. We managed to increase gross profit by 5% despite slightly lower sales. This was mainly an effect of rising margins in the equipment business due to the value before volume strategy, as well as capacity adjustments and lower extraordinary expenses. Net loss in the nine-month period was marked by the goodwill impairment in Q2. In Q3, net incomes stood at €26 million versus €21 million one year ago. However, last year's figure included a €19 million increase extraordinary book gain from the Agramco sale. Adjusted for this, net income was up by almost 50% in Q3 2025. Slide 18 is on sales. In Q3, we came close to the prior year figure and exceeded this year's low Q2 level. The latter was mainly based on sequential improvements in industrial automation and woodworking. Automotive is expected to speed up revenue recognition in Q4, which in terms of sales is usually the strongest quarter. On slide 19, you can see the strong margin performance in Q3, which was supported by all divisions, with automotive achieving an outstanding figure of 8.7%. The EBIT margin before Extraordinaries for the first nine months increased to 4.9% and clearly reached the full-year target corridor of 4.5% to 5.5%. In terms of absolute EBIT before Extraordinaries, Q3 was by far the strongest quarter, not only in 2025, but also compared to last year. In the first nine months of 2025, we saw an increase of 9% based on the higher cross-profit. Overhead costs were up 2.6%, mainly due to higher R&D costs. Slide 20 shows that after a strong second quarter, free cash flow was clearly positive also in Q3 and climbed to 85 million euros in the year to date. The main driver for this was lower capex spending. Please note that EBIT and DA were marked by the impairment in Q2. Our guidance for free cash flow is 0 to 50 million euros. This implies a negative figure actually in Q4. But if you ask me if this will really happen, my answer is we stay on the conservative side as free cash flow is difficult to predict in our business. But I can't rule out the possibility that free cash flow might develop a bit better than guided cash. Slide 21 is on net working capital. Compared to the end of 2024, there was a 16 percent decline and an improvement to 31 days working capital. Positive effects resulted from well-managed contract assets and considerable prepayments that are reflected in higher trade liabilities. These two effects overcompensated the temporary rise in trade receivables. Net debt shown on page 22 was stable at a level of €480 million in 2025. In Q1, liquidity was reduced by a €97 million payment for the acquisition of 2.5 million HOMAC shares after our cash settlement offer had ended due to a final call decision. Net debt will strongly decline as of December 31 as a consequence of the gross proceeds of 290 to 310 million euros from the environmental technology transaction that was closed on October 31. Let's look to page 23 and our funding situation. The funding situation is comfortable and it will additionally benefit from the environmental technology proceeds which are not yet reflected on the chart. The maturity profile is also favorable. We repaid Schulzstein branches of 55 million euros this year. The next maturity will be the 150 million convertible in January, 2026. So far from my side, I'm now passing back the word to Jochen who will continue on page 25. Thank you, Dietmar.

I would like to briefly comment on the sale of our environmental technology business. My personal judgment is that we were able to conclude a very good deal for Dürer and its investors, but also for the environmental business that will benefit from better growth perspectives. Enterprise value and proceeds clearly met our targets. We will use the proceeds to further strengthen the balance sheet and bring down net debt to presumably less than half of the pre-deal level. Please note that the 290 to 310 million euros are cross proceeds after having acquired the 25% reinvestment share and before tax payments that will be mainly due in 2026. We anticipate a book gain of 160 to 190 million euros after taxes which is at the higher end of expectations. Moreover, the transaction was a major strategic step to finish the transformation into a lean group with a clear focus on highly automated and sustainable production processes for our customers. Slide 26 visualizes our transformation. Within not more than one and a half years, We divested the non-core businesses of Agramco and environmental technology, consolidated our automotive business in one powerful division, integrated the automation business under the BBS brand, and reduced the number of divisions from five to three. The new DER Group acts under the motto of sustainable automation, with automation as a joint technology platform and further synergies, for example, bundled purchasing, cross-selling in the auto sector, shared services and business locations, as well as best practice processes in order execution. And on top, we are more focused and easier to understand for our investors and analysts with only three divisions. Page 27 shows the result of our transformation process. This structure is the right setup for the coming years. We are not planning any larger M&A transactions, but we'll put the main focus on further improving efficiency. Our target is an EBIT margin before Extraordinaries of 8%. Even though we are not yet there, we have already done a lot of homework. The Automotive Division reached its mid-cycle margin target of 8% last year and is set to repeat this in 2025. Woodworking has strengthened its earning resilience and will return to an 8% plus margin under normal market conditions. In 2026 and beyond, we will put special attention on improving the margin of industrial automation. There is still work to do. Nonetheless, I'm fully convinced of the potential of our automation business, especially as we continue to expand the well-performing activities in the medtech sector. Slide 28, please. The consequence of our lean group structure is the planned resizing of the administrative sector. As outlined in July, we are planning to cut 500 jobs to make admin structures leaner and more efficient. This goes in line with empowering the three divisions and give them more entrepreneurial leeway. We are targeting for cost savings of 50 million euros which requires provisions of 40 to 50 million euros in Q4. We've already started to reduce the admin workforce abroad and entered into negotiations with the Works Council in Germany. Page 30 brings us to the outlook. We are confirming the target set in March and partly revised end of July. The order intake guidance requires a strong Q4. There is still work ahead of us, but I'm very confident that we will be successful as there is a good level of investment activity on our customer side. Regarding sales, we are confident to reach the lower end of the 4.2 to 4.6 billion target corridor, backed by a strong Q4, especially in automotives. The EBIT margin before Extraordinaries almost reached the guidance midpoint after nine months, so it's fair to assume that last year's level should be exceeded. Regarding free cash flow, Dietmar found the right words before. We maintain a conservative approach, even though there's an opportunity to beat the upper end of the guidance. Given the book profit from the environmental technology sale, and the good earnings performance since Q3, we are confident regarding the net income guidance of 120 to 170 million euros. The target for net financial debt is absolutely realistic, given the environmental technology proceeds. Slide 31 is a rather technical one, designed to help you to follow the guidance, especially the information on the influencing factors for net income may be helpful. The divisional guidance on page 32 is unchanged compared to August 7 when we made some adjustments marked in blue. We are confirming the divisional targets, especially the improved earnings performance in Q3 is a sound argument to be confident. Slide 34 brings me to the summary. The sale of the environmental technology business was a milestone, not only because it was a financial success, but also because it represents the final element of our transformation. It has become a lean engineering group. Our leading competence for highly automated and sustainable production processes is the distinguishing feature that sets us apart from the competition. We are confirming our guidance and expect a high order intake in Q4, provided that there will be no customer-induced delays in order placement. The good performance in Q3 underscores our earnings resilience and our ability to improve margins even in a challenging environment. Free cash flow and net financial debt should meet the targets set in our guidance, maybe even more. We continue to improve earnings resilience and margins with the planned adjustments in administration targeting for annual cost savings of 50 million euros. And after having reshaped the group, we will direct our focus even more on improving efficiency in 2026. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. Dietmar and I will now be happy to answer your questions.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press 9 and star on your telephone keypad. In case you wish to withdraw a question, press 3 and star on your telephone keypad. And the first question is from Svenvaya UBS. Please go ahead with your question.

Yeah, good afternoon, gentlemen. Thanks for taking my question. I just have one regarding the order intake and what you said on Q4. I mean, with a view to the group guidance, is it also fair to assume that it's more likely that you will end up at the lower end of the range? And I was also curious how you see that on an individual divisional level. Thank you.

Thank you, Sven, for asking the question. That's fair to assume in terms of rather the lower range of the guidance. And from a divisional perspective, we see some momentum in HOMAC, but the bigger part at this point is assumed to come from automotive.

HOMAC is also going to be more towards the $1.3 billion level, I guess. Let's see.

I would guess rather somewhat above, but let's see.

Okay, understood. Thank you. Thank you.

The next question is from the Kita Papa to Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead with your question.

Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions. First, congratulations on the strong profitability we saw in this quarter. Is this a run rate we can expect for the next quarters, or what is it dependent on? My second question is on any comments on dividend already. Should we expect a payout ratio of roughly 40%? And the third one, when we think about 2026, do you see any improving KPIs for Hallmark? Thank you.

Thank you, Nikita, for your questions. Let me start with a run rate for the remainder of the year. If you make the math with the midpoint of the guidance, which we've now reached, we would expect Q4 probably not be exactly at the Q3 levels, but at least to a point that it well confirms what we've guided. On the dividend, no, we have not yet discussed anything. But I would say we are probably known for some sort of continuity, whatever that means at the end of the day. And then your last question was on HOMAC, I think for next year. Let's see how things develop. HOMAC, has made good steps this year. And you can clearly see, I mean, homework is up almost 2% compared to last year, that we've made our homework in terms of efficiency and the effect of our restructuring program kicks in. But next year, to some extent, really depends on the outcome for the remainder of the year. And being... at this year's level would already, I would say, would be a good starting point, and let's see what's possible.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

And the next question is from Adrian Pihl, OdoBHF. Please go ahead with your question.

Yes, hi, gentlemen. Good afternoon. Actually, a couple of questions. Well, first of all, on HOMAC again, actually phrasing it a little bit differently, Since in the past we have been talking a little bit about the quality of discussions that you had with your Clients and I was just wondering if there was some sort of incremental change on that Hopefully towards improvement, but happy to take any color you might share The second one is on as you were referring in your presentation to probably not pursuing bigger M&A transactions nevertheless wanted to hear thoughts on the proceeds that you will be collecting from the sale of the environmental business is that will you pay down debt with the money or how should we think of the respective capital allocation here and thirdly before I might have a follow-up on the phasing of the cash out on the restructuring maybe you could remind us how this will unfold starting Q4 going into 2026. That would be helpful.

Okay. Thank you for your questions. I will answer on HOMAC and Dietmar will probably take over for M&A proceeds and the phase-out of the restructuring. On HOMAC, obviously, you know, it's I've been burning my tongue a few times on this topic, always looking at when things would become better. It's twofold. It's very difficult to guess action from the discussions I have with customers, so we're careful when it comes to furniture at the moment. I don't think there is more room to go down, but still... you don't see any real recovery in the numbers. I think there is with some customers in Europe, maybe discussions become a bit more positive. On the other hand, we see some uncertainty in the U.S. from customers who now, of course, have to suffer from tariffs. How this will play out in the end and when really there will be momentum upwards, downwards, I don't expect any. Hard to say. Where we see definitely activity is around wooden houses and timber processing. And there we really are discussing with a number of customers on significant projects, and there I'm quite optimistic.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, Adrian, so I will pick up, as Jochen already mentioned, the other two questions in regard to the use of the proceeds of the environmental technology sale. We are going to use it for debt reduction. We have the maturity of the convertible bond coming up in January of next year, and we have another shulchan then coming up in April of next year, and we are targeting actually to repay these two debts. In regard to the cash out for the restructuring, then in the administration area that Johann explained, we are targeting to build up the provisions in the fourth quarter of this year. We are already getting closer to the negotiation results with the Works Council. And so I'm confident that we will build up the related provisions in Germany, but also outside of Germany until the end of this year. In regard to the cash out, I do not expect a real cash out to happen within this year. The majority will for sure be done in 2026. But depending on the individual agreements and the impact that we are having in there can also be that some portion of the payout still will be done in 2027. We can provide more information in regard to this when we are really having the progress in conjunction with getting the agreements with the individual employees who are targeted to leave the company.

Right. That's been helpful. Then last question from my side again on automotive, just also probably a bit more color just to what you said already. I mean, I took obviously and the order intake in QC was pretty low, but I want to hear thoughts. Is that just a function of shifts in projects that on the other hand are very likely to materialize? anytime soon because I'm actually asking you referred in the press release to I think that was a half sentence saying that if these products are then finally been signed so there's still a high level of uncertainty obviously and there might be some shift into 2026 but anything on you know color clients regions you know investment behavior would be helpful thank you

Thanks for the add-on question. We have a few, some large orders that are very much progressed in terms of the negotiations. So still not signed, but it gives us the confidence that we have expressed in our comments before. On the regions, I ask for your understanding that it's also from a confidentiality point of view and that the market is quite sensitive at the moment. I would rather comment on that we have booked the orders.

All right. Thank you. Thank you.

And the next question is from Philippe Laurent Bernstein. Please go ahead with your question.

Yeah, thank you very much for taking my question. I wanted to bounce back a little bit on automotive. From today's point of view, would that be fair to assume that the kind of order intake level that we could expect for Q4 kind of matches the one that we've seen in Q1?

It very much would match, yes, what we had in Q1.

Okay, perfect. And then a second question to specify a little bit more what you were saying on the adjusted EBIT margin guidance. So I take it that you were saying, okay, you are very confident with the midpoint of the range, but the midpoint of the range at 5% would imply actually like another 5% or so in Q4, if I'm not mistaken. So Just to circle back with your comment like saying, okay, if we look at Q3 and maybe we assume that it's not exactly the same level of margin that we can generate for Q4, that would imply actually that we land well within, let's say, the upper half of the margin range. So is that fair to see it that way?

Yeah, maybe, Philipp, I take this question in that regard. As you know, we are always a bit conservative, and projects have sometimes their own dynamics. So we stay on the conservative side, and then we stay with what Jochen explained before, staying at a very, or we stick to staying with the guidance. We are in the mid-range of the guidance. We will feel comfortable in that regard in case we perform better. Of course, that will be the case, but I don't want to raise the bar right now that would not be reasonable.

Yeah, okay, perfect. And my last question, again, it's probably a bit more on automotive and to some extent also on HOMAC, but now with the trend that we've seen that Q2 and Q3 were slightly weaker in terms of our intake, how should we expect actually sales to evolve in the coming quarters? And I'm trying to extrapolate a little bit further than just Q4.

Yeah, especially on automotive, we still have a very good backlog. So, you know, the orders we're now fighting for are rather further down in 26. So there, you know, we have a nice buffer independent on whether we get one of the bigger orders a quarter earlier or later. HOMAG? We'll have to see. You can see the numbers. The order backlog has somewhat come down. This is even more visible on the furniture side. So we will have some measures in place already for Q1, which should help. We've seen a similar thing this year. We're working, I mean, we're working from, how would we say, hand to mouth. But that's why I said, you know, expecting something similar to start with for next year compared to this year, I think is a fair assumption.

Okay. But on a full year basis, probably still continue on an improvement trend margin-wise, no?

That would be our aim, but let's see how the market helps us or doesn't help us.

Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you, Philipp.

At the moment, there seem to be no further questions. If you would like to ask a question, please press 9 and star on your telephone keypad. And the next question is from Olga Schmidt, DZ Bank. Please start with your question.

Yeah, hi, everyone. Good afternoon. I have just one question on the battery side. Could you give us an update on your battery business? I mean, you are making some capacity adjustments at the moment. Do you see any kind of improvement or potentially deterioration of the business?

Yeah, thank you. Good question, Olga. No, it's tough to be quite fair at the moment. That's why we're restructuring. We see a challenging market. We still believe that there will be some activities coming back. There's a few smaller orders, but nowhere near to what we've been planning for. This is why We make significant capacity adjustments and this is where we obviously see some earning issues at the moment. But we are adapting the team. It's not too huge anyways. And then see what we can get out of it. But it definitely is an issue at the moment and that's why we already announced significant restructuring and let's see how it goes forward. Fortunately, it's not big tickets in total.

Okay, thank you. And let's assume the market would remain weak at the current level. Would you also consider to step out of this business?

We don't do that right now. Let's see how things develop. If you listen to what is said in public, there's the confirmation that, especially in Europe, we need some sort of a supply chain. In the battery business, there is some projects, and actually we are hopeful also to collect a few projects orders, at least one or two double digits. So we will, in a way, deal with what we have. Hard to rule anything out, but at the moment, that's not our plan.

Okay. Understood. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

And the next question is from Elizabeth Weissenhorn, Porticus Investment. Please start with your question.

Hello. Mr. Weirach, you very often go to China, as I noticed, and I would like to know what you think about the competition there. I read and see pictures about the automation degree that is going on there and how competitive it is.

Yeah, thank you for the question. Indeed, I go to Spanier quite often because it's an important business for us. And China is very competitive in any industry. And in automation, definitely, there is a number of very strong players, obviously including us, because the majority of our customers employees in production automation are sitting in China mainly in Suzhou and Kunshan and we're playing a significant role that's why it is important to play in China to learn what's happening there but the dynamics are incredible I can really only say and that's why again it is important to be there to be successful and we are successful in our automation business with our strong local team. But you have to continuously develop, be efficient, be cost-driven. This is why the business that we run and the competition we play with in China makes us also quite strong for the business outside of China. I hope that helps a little bit. That's all I can say at this point. I'm always impressed.

Okay, then we come to the last question. It's a follow-up from Philippe Lohan Bernstein. Please start with your question.

Yes, thanks. Just wanted to follow up with two little more questions on automotive. So the first one was just like to make sure I understood you were saying your, let's say, confidence with regard to the statement speaking about an improvement in Q4 or intake trends is based more on the fact that you see orders being like nearly assigned. But how about orders that you've signed maybe at the beginning of Q4? How has it been like current trading, so to say? And the second question would be, and perhaps it ties also together a little bit with all of that generally, but I remember you were speaking about a bit of a slowdown in execution this year. However, it seems to pick up, especially with regard to Q4. Would you say that all these issues are now behind us, or has there been like a structural shift somewhere?

Thanks, Philippe. Yeah, on Otto and bookings in Q4, in general, our pipeline overall doesn't look very bad, I must say. Actually, let me turn my words around. It looks quite solid. And that is not only Q4. It is, you know, we're always watching the next 12, 18 months. And this is where I can say it is solid. Is it... fantastic, probably not, but it's very solid and there's enough projects out there to feed the organization at this point. When it comes now to Q4, there is two to three larger orders that would turn the needle. And on most of them, negotiations have progressed quite well. And then Based on that, let's see how things turn out. Does that help a bit, Philippe?

Yes, perfect. So I understand it's really something that needs to be signed. And with regard to the question on the pace of execution on sales?

Sorry, I missed that one. I would say we are running a relatively normal pace at this point. There was a few orders of few projects where, you know, there was some modifications at customer ends. There was a few delays on progress of buildings, which, by the way, can happen always in that business. But what we are currently seeing is, I would say, normal project execution.

Okay, perfect. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

And as we have no further questions from the audience, I would like to hand the floor back over for closing remarks.

Thank you, Heike. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your questions and the discussion in today's call. If there are follow-ups, please don't hesitate to contact me. We are looking forward to meet some of you on the investor conferences during the next few weeks. Take care and have a wonderful end of the year season. Bye-bye from our side.

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