Elisa Oyj Ord A

Good morning everyone and welcome to ELISA's third quarter 2025 analyst meeting and conference call. I'm Vesa Sahivirta, head of investor relations and here together with me is a very familiar team CEO Topi Manner and now for the last time CFO Jari Kinnunen who will leave us in the end of the year. We have also our incoming CFO, Christian Pullola here, but now he's in the audience still. Next week, by the way, we are in a roadshow together with Christian and Jari. But now going to the agenda of the day and following the normal practice, we start the presentation followed by Q&A. And now I give word to Topi, please go ahead.

Thank you, Veza, and good day, everybody here in the room and those of you who are joining remotely. Welcome to this earnings call also on my behalf. I understand that there are quite many quarterly reports today in the Nordics as well as throughout Europe, so let's jump right into business and try to be relatively condensed with the presentation so that there will be time for a Q&A. In terms of the highlights of the quarter, the revenue of ELISA increased with 4.6%. That was very much driven by the international software services as well as mobile service revenue. The mobile service revenue landed at 3.3%. That was supported... very much by the 5G upselling and also the introduction of security features to our mobile plans. And then pointing to other direction was especially the competition in the 4G category of mobile subscriptions. In international software services, our revenue increased with 53%, roughly. The comparable organic growth was 3%, impacted by some project delays related to the tariff-related uncertainties in the global market. EBITDA was up with 3.7%, solid as such. What was very good to see is that the comparable cash flow grew with more than 12% from the Q2 level, which was already an all-time high level. This was on the back of the increasing EBITDA, strict capex discipline, and also the networking capital management. In Finland, the post-pay churn increased to 22% or a bit more than 22%, indicating that the competition was quite intense during the quarter. Post-paid subscriptions decreased by 20,000, a bit more. Of that, close to 6,000 were related to machine-to-machine and IoT subscriptions. There is some quarterly fluctuation. In this one, in Q2, we won quite a bit of post-paid subscriptions, especially in the corporate side of the business, and therefore it is useful to take a little bit longer perspective on this. The fixed broadband subscription base increased by close to 5,000, and the fiber-related revenue starts gradually to pick up. So if we look at our revenue in total, it was indeed supported by the international software services and mobile service revenue. What was also good to see is that the fixed service revenue turned to growth during the quarter period. That was impacted by some customer wins in the corporate networks in that side of the business. And then, as mentioned, also the fiber-related revenue is starting to pick up and then being visible this quarter. EBITDA landed at 214 million euros. Mobile service revenue, as mentioned, was 3.3% in terms of growth, supported by the introduction of the mentioned security features. And that particular change, that offering change, has been well received by customers. We have now enrolled something like 600,000 customers customers to this offering, and that was supporting the MSR growth. The churn number was especially, as mentioned, impacted by the competition in the 4G category, especially in the low speed tiers of the 4G category, and we saw some campaigning basically throughout the quarter. in this one. So then looking into the various business areas that we are having, the consumer business was impacted by the mentioned mobile competition, revenue up 0.9%, EBITDA up 0.4%, Corporate business on its turn had a strong quarter. Revenue increased with 5.6%, especially boosted by the price increases in the corporate side of the mobile business. The mentioned fixed service revenue contributed positively also interconnection and roaming. And EBITDA grew with 3.6% in the corporate business. corporate business. So a good quarter for that segment. In international software services, our EBITDA during the quarter improved with 5 million euros. And if we look at the first nine months of the year, profitability-wise, we are now effectively in break-even for the first nine months in that business in terms of EBITDA. And that is ahead of the fourth quarter that typically is the strongest quarter in software business in terms of revenue and in terms of EBITDA. Then this morning we announced that we are introducing a transformation program to accelerate the implementation of our faster profitable growth strategy. So coming back to our strategy, the one that we communicated in our Capital Markets Day in March, Simplicity and productivity is very much a fundament of that strategy. Simplicity and productivity is enabling the growth in our four growth pillars, namely 5G and fiber, home services, corporate IT and cyber, and international software services. We have been working with simplicity and productivity with continuous improvement measures in the past, and now we are accelerating the implementation of that with the aim to simplify our operations, improve agility, and speed of decision-making in the company, and with that, enable growth. And at the same time, we are taking swift action to improve the cost competitiveness of our business in the current market environment. With the transformation program, we are aiming for 40 million euros of annual cost savings during the calendar year of 26. And with these measures, we ensure that we will achieve our mid-term revenue and EBITDA targets, the ones that we set for ourselves in the CMD. So when we look at what the transformation program includes, it will be about organizational streamlining, de-layering the organization. It will be very much about process simplification, process optimization, also cross-functionally within the organization. It will be also about scrutinizing our outsource services, most notably the use of IT consultants in the organization, renewing our software development model. And then we are resetting our procurement effectively and finding efficiencies in the procurement space of the company. In the organizational streamlining, in the changes related to the way of working, we will be utilizing more and more automation and AI, and that is an element that is embedded in the transformation program. But as stated, the bottom line is that this is in line with our communicated strategy, accelerating the implementation of the strategy. When we look at the mobile business in a bit more detail, the 5G upselling continues with the trend that we have seen in the past. The mentioned upgrades related to security features are supportive of the mobile service revenue. As stated, we have now enrolled something like 600,000 customers, and that enrollment rollout process will continue in phases in cohorts during the course of this year, but especially going into 26. We have been also launching new types of security features, scam call blocking for foreign numbers being one of the examples, and that has been now well received by customers. and the initial take-up rate is encouraging. We also had a nice opening with private 5G standalone networks with slicing technology in one of the ports in Finland, where we are able to serve our customers with the kind of technology, standalone slicing technology, that our local competitors do not have at this point of time. a good reference case for similar opportunities in the future. When we look at the fiber business, as mentioned, we are starting to see strong revenue momentum in that part of the business. And our accelerated network construction is being continued as we speak. All within the 12% capex to sales envelope that we are having. Then just quickly looking into the digital services, in the home services space, we introduced a new original service called Icebreaker, and the international distribution actually for that one has started well in a number of European countries. In terms of home services, in energy solutions for households, Our home battery solution now has a coverage of 70% in Finland. We are in very initial stages of the rollout, but we have clearly proven the product market fits, and therefore an encouraging outlook for this solution for 26 and onwards. In corporate IT and cyber, we are clearly very competitive on the market in terms of our cyber offering. And one of the examples is that in cybersecurity, one of the biggest retailers in Nordics, Kesko, chose us as their cybersecurity provider in Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, the Baltic countries, as well as Poland. So yet again, a good reference case for the future. In international software services, in that side of the business, our aim has been to grow more than 10% organically. There are the tariff-related concerns have resulted in some delays of customer projects that have been impacting especially the license and service revenue parts of the business. And therefore, when we look into the Q4, when we look into the likely realization of the project, we expect for a full year, an organic comparable growth between 5 and 10 percent in this part of the business. However, an important indicator in software business, of course, is the recurring revenue. And the recurring revenue during the quarter grew with 13%, double digits, and the year-to-date number is 15%. The share of recurring revenue is increasing all the time in the total revenue of ISS. An interesting individual reference point is in our energy flexibility solution called Griddle, previously called Distributed Energy Storage, and there we signed a first grid scale battery solution with an energy company of the city of Vantaa for 10 megawatts. an interesting reference point, opportunity to scale for the future. And then finally, when we look at our outlook and guidance for this year, we will keep our guidance in terms of revenue and EBITDA intact. The bottom line being that with the transformation program, we will be accelerating the implementation of our strategy. And with that, I will be handing over to Jari.

Thank you, Topi. Let's first look at the profit and loss. Q3 continued with good trends, growth trends, solid growth in revenue, as well as in EBITDA revenue, 25 million increase, 4.6% growth in Q3. If you look at behind the... revenue growth levers overall good development in in service revenues 5.8 percent growth in in service revenues mobile services increasing with nine million both consumer and corporate customer segment growing 5g customer base increasing and changes in the service offering, security features and price changes. in that change all contributing to that 3.3% mobile service revenue in Q3. Fixed services growing 3 million, fixed broadband, especially fibre. Broadband connections are growing. Also in the corporate segment, corporate networks and related security services are contributing to growth. Negative impact in traditional fixed voice Domestic digital increase was 2 million. IT services in corporate segment contributing slight decline in consumer segment digital services. International software services increased with 12 million. acquisitions and set up the first consolidation impacting approximately 11 million acquisitions impact and comparable growth at 3%. Equipment sales flat like was the interconnection and roaming and All in all, organic growth totally was at 3%. Epida, 3.7% growth to 213.5 million. Epida margin was strong 38%. 1%. EBIT 1.9% growth to 138.6 million. EBIT margin was 24.7%. EPS was growing 2.3% to 64 euro cents. In Estonia, improvement both in revenue growth as well as in profitability and revenue was growing 2% mobile and fixed services, developing positively and negative impact in equipment sales. EBITDA increase was strong, 9% driven by service revenue growth, as well as cost efficiency measures. In mobile, postpaid subscriptions, slight decline, 1,200. Prepaid base, minus 200. churn came slightly up from Q2, still relatively low at 9.4%. CapEx, reported CapEx was 81 million, excluding licenses, lease agreements and acquisitions, the guided CapEx at 60 5 million and in line both Q3 and year-to-date. Guided capex in line with 12% from sales. Main investments continuing in 5G network as well as fiber network and IT investments. In Q3, cash flow continued good development, like has been in the previous quarters. Comparable cash flow was growing 12% as a result of higher EBITDA, lower CAPEX, as well as lower paid interest. Networking capital change was positive. However, slightly less positive than a year ago. Year-to-date comparable cash flow growth is at 10% through higher EPIDA, positive net working capital change and lower investments and negative impact through financial expenses. Gas flow conversion was improving, and EPIDA gas flow conversion at 70% in Q3. Then if you look at the balance sheet and capital structure, in line with the medium term targets, net debt to EBITDA decreased from Q2 to 1.7 times, equity ratio increased from Q2 to 35 point 7% and return ratios continued to improve. Return on equity was at 30.7%. Return on investments improved to 18.6%. And in terms of financing, average interest for interest bearing debt continues same level as was in the previous quarter to up to 2.5%. And now I give word to Vesa, please.

Thank you, Jari. Now we move on to Q&A part, and first we ask if there is any question from the audience. No, we don't have. So we go to the conference call lines and ask first question from the lines, please.

If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Andrew Lee from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon, everyone. I had two questions. The first one was just on your adjustments in guidance on the cost cutting side of things. So two incremental things you said today is one, that you're raising your cost cutting expectations to offset costs mobile service revenue growth weakness and also um macro uh uncertainty stroke weakness but at the same time i think what you're saying is that you're seeing a macro improvement in your fixed business So with your cost savings to offset macro weakness, are you being conservative in your outlook on macro weakness, i.e. if it gets worse again or doesn't continue to improve, or is there something else going on there? Just a little bit of help in terms of what's changing versus where you're adopting a conservative approach would be helpful. And then second question is just on your mobile service revenue growth, which is, I guess, the big negative surprise today. Could you just give us a bit of a sense of the mobile service revenue growth trend into Q4, just so we can get a sense as to how badly things have deteriorated in terms of the competitive environment versus what you were saying, sticking to the guidance at Q2? Thank you.

Thank you, Andrew. If I start on the first one. Yes, the transformation program that we introduced aims to have 40 million euros of annual savings during the calendar year of 26. And when we come back to the macro and especially the impact of macro to fixed service revenue, during the quarter in the corporate business we had a handful of very good customer wins that contributed to the fixed service revenue growth. And also the fiber pickups starts to be visible there. I think that these are more micro examples in the sense that they are telling about our competitiveness in terms of fixed service revenue. If I look at the sort of near term for the next couple of quarters in fixed service revenue, I think that we will be seeing some quarterly fluctuation still. And I wouldn't yet say that there has been a macro trend change in this one. But when we look further to late 26 and 2027, we do see that in the fixed service business, there is a possibility for additional growth revenue and profitability growth in terms of data center connectivity, data center fiber connectivity. So I just want to check whether that address is at least part of your question, or did you have something else on mind?

Yeah. No, thanks, Toby. That was great. Can I just check that 40 million, is that a net benefit that we can just add on to the EBITDA line, or is that a gross benefit?

Yeah, related to the cost. So the bottom line with the transformation program and with the annual cost savings is that with this transformation program, given all the changes in our business, we aim to achieve our midterm targets, the ones that we communicated in CMD last March.

Okay, I thought you said that you're accelerating it earlier on in the call. Maybe I misunderstood that.

Yes, we aim to achieve the mid-term targets, like stated. We are accelerating the implementation of the strategy, accelerating the implementation of the enablers for CROP. understood thing. And then the second part of your question, I guess, was related to the mobile service revenue and the competitive landscape that we are seeing on the market. So on that one, The outlook that we have for mobile service revenue development as of now is that during this calendar year, it will be low to mid single digit MSR growth. And as stated, what we have seen now lately is intense competition, more intense competition, especially in the 4G category of things. At the same time, when we look at the total market, the 5G upselling continues. Our bundled offering related to security features has been well received on the market, and we will continue that rollout, and that will be supportive. of mobile service revenue. So, you need to look at both high end and the low end of the market, in order to understand the full dynamic.

And how should that play out in Q4? Should we see any kind of material difference to the growth trend you saw in Q3 and Q4?

When we look at now the competitive situation, Q4 is a bit more challenging before the cost savings kick in at the start of the year from Q1 onwards. Thank you.

The next question comes from Owen McGivron from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Thank you and good morning. It's Irma Gibbon from Bank of America here. On the elevated post-fed churn in Finland, could you just give us a few more details on the moving parts there? How much has hard bundling contributed to the churn? And is it all or the majority from this more competition in the 4G offerings? Thank you.

Yeah, I think that what we are seeing is that the market is more diverse than it has been in the past. So if we look at the high end of the market, 5G category of business, and especially if we look at those cohorts of customers to whom we have been rolling out the new offering with the security features, I think that that has proceeded well. As stated, we have now rolled out 600,000 customers approximately to the new offering. And when we look at the churn of those customers isolated, that has met our expectations, or actually has been a little bit below our expectations. So that means that we do see that customers understand the value, and there's a possibility for us to continue expanding that offering. At the same time, at the other end of the market, where consumers are more price sensitive and more prone to be attracted by 4G offerings, then there we see a price competition and campaigning, and that has been one of the drivers or the main driver behind the increased churn number from Q2.

Okay, that makes sense. Thank you. And just a very quick one on the hard bundling cohort rollout. In a seasonally more competitive Q4, should we expect a slowdown in the rollout of your security offerings to customers, or do you think you can continue at a steady pace?

I mean, if we look at the rollout schedule for the remainder of the year, the original plan was already that Q4 will be calmer in terms of that rollout. So the rollout base will pick up in 26.

Okay, thank you.

The next question comes from Andreas Jolson from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning or good day rather. Just two questions from my side as well. First of all, the delayed projects in the international software business, how should we view that? Is it more cancellations of orders or do we expect that to come back in the near term? And secondly, the cost reduction program usually come with a cost. So, what kind of restructuring costs should we expect from that, and when? Thank you.

Absolutely. So, if I take the first one, and Jari, you take the second one. So, on the first one, in the international software services, this is really a delay. So, no cancellation of projects. It is a timing issue as such. I mean, typically in a customer project, when a project starts, there is a license element in terms of revenue. Then there is a certain service revenue element related to installing the software, configuring the software. And then there's a significant recurring revenue element on this one. And we are proceeding according to plans in terms of the... recurring revenue part in ISS, but the delay of some projects is impacting the license and especially the service revenue part of these projects.

And the program cost reduction programme and restructuring charge question. So, at the moment, we estimate that there will be a restructuring charge, approximately 20 million, and that will be booked in Q4.

Perfect. Thank you.

The next question comes from Paul Sidney from Burenberg. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Two questions as well, please. Firstly, on Finnish Mobile, if we take a step back and look at what you said three months ago, you said the Q2, all price increases had landed well, customers had valued the offering of the new services. What's really happened in the past two, three months to change the competitive dynamics so quickly? Just get a better understanding for that, please. And then secondly, given the competition is mainly at the bottom end, you've mentioned 4G, is there any measures you can take to accelerate the migration to 5G? And also, are you confident that this elevated competition level won't spill over into the 5G market as well? Thank you.

Yes, so, I mean, if we look at what we said about the introduction of the bundled offering with the security features, not that much has changed between Q2 and Q3 on that category of the offering we have been offering. Moving forward with our original rollout schedule and customers understand the value, we see that the take-up rate of those individual security features is increasing among our clientele. And as stated, that whole initiative is supportive of our mobile service revenue growth at this point of time. What we are seeing in the market is that, especially in the lower end of the market, speaking of predominantly 4G subscriptions. The competition has been tighter, as the churn figure indicates. During the Q3, there has been campaigning ongoing. When we sort of slice and dice that a bit, one new mobile virtual network operator started during the quarter, Giga Mobile in September, that individual player has not impacted the market that much. So the competition in the 4G category is very much between the traditional three big players on the market. For us, our stance in this one is very, very clear. We will keep our market number one position. We will keep our market share in mobile subscriptions. And with the transformation program, we are improving our cost competitiveness on the market.

That's great. Thank you. Can I have a quick follow-up, Safi? Would you consider cutting price at any stage looking forward if competition levels remain?

Sorry, Paul. Now I missed some of it. So could you please repeat?

Oh, apologies. It was just a follow-up. Would you potentially consider cutting price looking forward or is that not an option? You want to continue to compete on quality?

Yeah, we will be a responsible market leader. So we are not fueling the price competition on the market. So we will be a responsible market leader. At the same time, we will keep our market share. I repeat, we will keep our market share. So we will be responding to the price competition if needs be. Very helpful. Thank you.

The next question comes from Ajay Soni from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my question. The first one is around that, this 4G low-speed area where you're seeing more competition. I was wondering if you could give us an indication of what portion of your customer base is within that. Obviously, you highlight within the slides, it's around 37%. I think that's for the market, which is below 200 megabits. But what about for you guys specifically within your customer base? And the second question is just a quick clarification. The workforce reductions of all the 40 million saving that you expect in 26, do you expect that full run rate to come from Q1 26? Thank you.

Good. Jari, you take the last one. When we look at the various segments of the markets, and now of course I'm simplifying quite a bit, We are not disclosing the number of 5G penetration, we are disclosing the number of high-speed penetration, more than 200 megabit penetration, where we have all of our 5G customers and then we have some 4G customers. But if we look at the high end of the market and we include all of the 5G subscriptions to that one, we are closing in on 50% of the market in that one. And then the sort of most price sensitive customer group is not Half of the customer base, it's less than that. We are probably talking about roughly 30% plus minus of the clientele.

And regarding 40 million... cost savings, the majority of that comes through personal reductions. There are other parts, however, on that, and we estimate that from the beginning of the year in Q1, we have a majority of the savings already coming in.

Yeah. and still coming back to the mobile competition and the overall dynamics of the market, I think that it is worthwhile to say that we have been seeing times of a bit more intense competition also in the past. If you look at the past 10 years, there have been individual quarters when the churn has been on 22% level like now. So... the competition comes and goes as such and is of volatile nature. And I think that if we take sort of a mid to long term perspective to our market, This is effectively a three-player market in terms of mobile services, and we don't think that the underlying rational nature of the market has changed.

Great, thank you.

The next question comes from Abhilash Mahapatra from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon and thanks for taking my question. Sorry to come back to the transformation program, please, but it's just interesting that you've put a very explicit number around the cost saving of 40 million euros linked to the headcount reduction. Just trying to understand, is that, I mean, should we be reading something into that, that that's the sort of headwind that you're expecting in your business elsewhere, you know, due to a combination of all those things you talked about, like sort of, uh, mobile competition, macro pressures, and that's why you're looking to do this or, um, or was this always a part of the capital markets day, uh, sort of strategy and, and you've just now taken this moment to, um, announce this programme. How should we be thinking about that? Thank you.

If I start on this one, and Jari will continue. So, it's more the latter of what you have stated. So, if you come back to our strategy in Capital Markets Day, simplicity and productivity has always been part of our plans. we have factored that in to our mid-term targets in terms of EBITDA. We have been working with simplicity and productivity for long with continuous improvement measures. You know, if you look at what we did during 24, there were some productivity measures visible during the calendar year of 24. Now, since the Capital Markets Day, we have been working with issues like finding efficiencies from procurement, We have been looking into automation and AI possibilities, cross-functional synergies within our organization, possibilities to de-layer in the organization. And now the time has come to accelerate the strategy implementation. And at the same time, there is an element of taking swift action to improve the cost competitiveness in the current. current market environment, but in this order.

Yeah, I can literally repeat the accelerated growth strategy that we presented besides the concrete growth levers for revenue. An important part of that strategy is, and also as we presented in the capital markets day, is the productivity cost efficiency development. So it's an element of part of that strategy. And we will continue also beyond beyond this programme to build productivity.

Absolutely.

That's helpful, thank you.

The next question comes from Artem Beletsky from SEB. Please go ahead.

Yes, hi, and thank you for taking my question. the call a bit later so maybe those have been answered but still coming back to competition situation and the increased intensity during you you three could you maybe comment on churn profile what you have seen during supporter so has there been a gradual pickup or did it really increase during september months and maybe how do you see the development in early part of q4 and the second question is relating to 40 million program So in the past, you have been doing this type of efficiency actions, but you haven't really been quantifying those ones. So could you maybe provide some color how this 40 million program could be compared to what you have been doing over past years? And maybe just in terms of cost inflation, so could you maybe comment what you see on that front, just trying to extract what could be the net figure in terms of these actions. Thank you.

Okay. So, if I quickly start on the churn profile. So, looking into Q3, I think that we saw the 4G category competition to pick up in July. and basically continue throughout the quarter. And then, of course, there was some campaigning also in September. So, basically, something that was across the quarter as such. Now... Looking into Q4, typically we see campaigning in Q4 during the Black Friday weeks of November and then a calmer period before that. if we look at sort of very tactically, the sort of short-term sort of patterns in terms of churn, I think that that is playing out as of now. And then remains to be seen that what happens in November related to Black Friday weeks.

And to cost-efficiency development and this program... Yes, it's true that we've been doing that also in the past, increasing productivity, cost efficiency. We did some reductions also last year in employee numbers. And in different times, these... opportunities mature, and there are several levers below that, automation, AI, among the others, and like mentioned already, this is a very central part of the strategy that we introduced earlier this year, and we will continue with productivity development also going forward and beyond this.

And if you look at this transformation program, I guess that in the nature of things that we will be implementing, if we look at the things that we did during 24, we basically did continuous improvement within the verticals of the organization. In this transformation, there will be also horizontal end-to-end process optimizations and streamlining of those processes. Also seeking synergies between business areas and the tech ops part of the organization. And with that, there's a bit more transformational element to what we are doing right now. To give you a bit of flavor of the nature of things.

Yeah, that's helpful. So that's all from me. Thank you, Topi and Jere. Thank you, Akhten.

The next question comes from Siayi He from Citi. Please go ahead.

Hello. Thank you for taking my questions. I have two, please. The first one is following up your comments on the cost cutting earlier. I think looking at the past, it's probably one of the rare times we see that you announce a major staff reduction. Just wondering, could you comment on the current negotiation progress with the unions? And if you could, in what areas, if mobile, ISS, we see most of the staff reduction from your program? And the second question is if you could talk about the market condition in B2B. I think in mobile, you showed some decline in mobile ads in P2P. But I think last quarter, you mentioned that have won some contracts. Just wondering how should we square your comments from last quarter and this quarter's performance? Thank you.

Okay. Thank you for that. So, if I take the staff implications first and how they will be divided and distributed within the organization, I mean, the overall estimated number of job reductions within the company will be 450. of that 400 will be associated with our businesses and functions in Finland, namely consumer business, corporate business, corporate functions, and the tech ops part of of the organization. And that also means that in Finland, the union dialogue is important. That has been initiated. We have a good tradition for collaboration in that space, and we will be proceeding with that when we implement these changes. during the weeks to come, during the remainder of this year. And then coming back to your other question about the B2B and the customer wins. Yes, during Q2 we won significant new customers, especially for our IT business. and sort of all around customers in B2B in a sense that they would be having connectivity services like corporate networks, cybersecurity and IT services. And the sort of takeover of those services has partially commenced and will continue during Q4, but it is not in any material fashion impacting the Q3 numbers yet.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

The next question comes from Terence Sui from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.

Yeah, thanks very much, and good day, everyone, as well. My question was just, again, on this cost-saving program. I'm just wondering why you haven't been a bit more ambitious. I think some of your Nordic peers have been a bit more aggressive in taking out their headcount. From my calculations, it's roughly about 7% of their headcount. So just wondering, you know, why didn't you see scope for maybe a bit more aggressive cost-cutting, please? Thank you.

I mean, if you, you know, look back a bit and include the sort of continuous improvement measures that we did during the 24... the calendar year of 24. During that year, we reduced some 300 people in terms of staff. And when you calculate the impact of the transformation program now into it, then, you know, that total number is quite equivalent to what we have been seeing some of the other players doing. Then I think that there's a difference in terms of how we have been doing it. We have been doing it predominantly with continuous improvement measures and now also because of the cross-functional sense of this or cross-functional nature of these initiatives introducing this transformation program to accelerate the implementation of the strategy. So we have been implementing it and designing it in a little bit different way. And then, of course, there has been this strong culture of continuous improvement in the company for a long time. And therefore, we have been cost efficient previously as well.

Okay. Thank you so much, Topi and Jari. Wishing you the best for the future. Thank you.

Thank you.

There are no more questions at this time so I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.

Thank you for your questions and participating with this call. And now I give the closing remarks to Topi, please.

Thank you for all of you for participating in this earnings call. And before we close, I would just like to acknowledge Jari and his great contributions to the company during the 25 years that you have been serving as the CFO. I don't know whether it's 100 quarters or even more than that, but many, many quarters. So your contribution has been invaluable. So thank you. Thank you for that. And all the best for the future.

Thank you, Topi, for kind words and small correction. Of course, CFO knows the numbers, so it's been 20 years as CFO.

Yeah, 25 years in the company.

25 years in the company. That's correct. It's been a great journey and, of course, a great development over the years, and I'm very privileged and grateful that I've been part of that journey and worked with great colleagues in the finance team, in the management team all over the ELISA and of course with Utopi and before that long years with Veli Matti and with this audience as well. There has been great cooperation and interactions over the years and a big thank you for all for that and I'm very I'm very pleased that I can hand over this responsibility to Christian going forward and the companies in the great position to continue value to customers and especially also to to their shareholders going forward with the strategy in place, with the culture in place, and great people in the company. So, thank you very much. Thank you for participation.

Thank you, and until the next time. And next week, we are on the road with Jari and Christian, so we'll meet you where we are. So, until next week. Thank you.

Thank you.