Evonik Industries Ag

Thanks a lot and thanks everybody for joining our call today on such short notice. We've quite some news for you this afternoon and expect quite a few questions from you. So having said this, let's get right into it. To start, I would like to highlight three points. First, we've achieved our revised outlook for 2025. It was a tough finish in the last quarter, but we made it. Our EBITDA in the fourth quarter was solid enough to reach around 1.9 billion euros for the full year and our cash generation was more than just solid. We delivered almost 700 million euros of free cash flow, resulting in a 37 cash conversion rate, making the upper half of our guidance corridor. This demonstrates once more, no matter what the environment, we deliver on cash. Last year was not a great year, for sure. But given the environment, I would say we came away with a black eye. So, having said so, let's look ahead from there. And second, for 2026, we aim for broadly stable earnings at the midpoint of our guidance range, in an environment which remains tough. With normalizing the signing prices, delivering stable earnings, I guess, is a good thing. Klaus will elaborate further on this in a second. And third, the consistent execution of our strategy is, in this environment where challenges are everywhere, as crucial as never before. To be able to do this, we need more financial flexibility. This is why we present a new dividend policy today. which combines a still attractive dividend for investors with more financial flexibility for us. The support from IG Foundation on this change demonstrates their commitment to our success. More on this at the end of our prepared remarks. Before, ladies and gentlemen, I let Klaus dive into the more operational topics, I would like to make a case for Evonik. Some of you would ask, why invest in us? Why invest given all the headwinds for chemicals? It is true that right now we face structural challenges and weak demand at the same time. This is of course not a good combination, but already in these challenging times, we are strong industry-leading cash generator. That is why, despite investing and despite paying attractive dividend our leverage is moderate. This enables us to act from a position of strength. We, ladies and gentlemen, we do control our own destiny. From this relatively better starting point, we have significant potential to improve in the years to come. And we will realize this potential. We will reduce costs further. Our headcount will be another 1,000 lower at the end of this year, or better, the end of last year, with exciting applications and attractive growth niches, such as for our batteries or drones. We still have significant portfolio optimization potential that lies within Oxeno, that lies within Zenect, and more. And last but not least, as just mentioned, will adopt a more balanced capital allocation strategy. This means, in other words, in any kind of environment, we'll improve in the years to come and then we'll generate a ROSI of around 11%. I have no doubts about this. By the way, ROSI will become part of our board compensation with the approval at the upcoming AGM in June. This will help us to stay more disciplined and to align our interests and the interests of our investors. With that, I do hand over to Klaus.

Yeah, thank you, Christian, and to all the people listening to us online, a very warm welcome from my side as well. Before I go into the financial outlook, let's run through the puts and takes that are behind the numbers. On the side of the headwinds, we expect the demand environment to remain weak. We don't think, we don't bet on a recovery. I think that's the best thing to do at the current moment in time. So in absence of a major demand recovery, competitions, especially from Asia, will stay tough. Of course, these are not Evonik-specific headwinds. Evonik-specific is in fact that After two strong years, we now see a normalization in the methionine prices. I think this is well anticipated by the capital market. However, we will be partly offsetting these lower margins by our volumes, and after a series of intense maintenance shutdowns last year, we have more capacity. and a lower cost base in the US once our backward integration is up and running, and this is the case from the mid of this year. Increasing support will come for us from our self-help measures, with Evonik tailor-made and business optimization programs in full swing. On top, we will introduce short-term contingencies again, which we already had in the year 2023 and 2024. Also, we are expecting lower energy costs, mainly from regulation changes in Germany. That brings me to our guidance for the adjusted EBITDA in 2026, which we expect to be between 1.7 and 2 billion euros. The base assumption for outlook is the aforementioned positives and negatives should largely balance out, and leaving us at the midpoint of our guidance range with, I can say, broadly stable earnings versus last year. In custom solutions, we expect the year of slight growth, both in terms of volumes and earnings. In advanced technologies, we anticipate slightly lower earnings, mainly driven by the normalization of the methionine prices and less support from one-time heat takes, which we had last year. So the interesting question certainly is what are we seeing for quarter one, 2026? It's very early in the year, of course, and nevertheless, of course, we looked into this very, very intensively before we gave you this guidance range. So far, we see little change in Q1. So Q1 is more or less currently seen by us on the level of Q3 2025, in which we recorded an adjusted EBTA of around 450 million euros. So I guess this will be a good proxy for the start into the year, suggesting that our business in total is currently relatively stable. However, if all quarters continue on this level, and even accounting for Q4 seasonality, we will be able to meet our outlook. But to reach the midpoint of our guidance, we need a small burnings improvement. And we believe this is realistic, not because we are betting on any kind of support from the general environment, but because of specific elements in our business. So I'll give you some examples. Second half of healthcare is always stronger than the first half. And we have seen this last year in a very, very strong flow of healthcare that this is the case. Then we expect a stronger catalyst business in the second half. partly because it's a normal seasonality, but also mainly because of change in, let's call it regulations, because there's regulations out for the use of biodiesel in Europe as well as in the United States, which has not been put into reality yet, and we expect that this is going to happen certainly in the second half of this year. We have a business where we believe there will be an improvement compared to Q1. And we have the second half in the year supported, let's say, margin improvement in our Messianine business, because our backward integration in in the US is going online. Last but not least, also, we have a new hydrogen peroxide plant, which we are starting in the this year in China. So just give you a few examples. I could also even mention some more. So this gives us the confidence for the guidance level we gave to you.

This brings me back to Christian. Thanks a lot, Klaus. Ladies and gentlemen, in this tough environment and facing clearly weaker results than we would like to see, the execution of our long-term strategy is more important than ever. We need both growth and cost optimization to be successful in the long run. Realizing growth is obviously more difficult than we thought one year ago. We are ramping up new capacities, as Klaus has already mentioned, and attractive products and end markets. These are making a contribution, albeit a smaller one for now. We're complementing these with more focus on growth opportunities in attractive and markets. So we have interesting solutions, for example, for drones, for data centers, and for consumer electronics. I can hear you. I can hear your skeptical question, these businesses are too small, Kullmann, to make a difference. Yes, they are small today. But this is how innovation or new application always starts in chemicals. For example, think about our Veramaris businesses. So it takes time to build sales and earnings. But that does not mean we should not be doing it because the opportunities we could have and we could benefit from are really attractive. The second pillar for future success, obviously, are self-helping measures. ranking from Evonik TaylorMate to various business optimizations and our procurement optimization. Here we have a lot of things at hand. All of these are pretty well on track, visible in the clear headcount reduction of more than 850 in the last year. And another 1,000 as part of these programs are to be reduced in this year. Unfortunately, The benefits of our cost reduction programs are partly eaten up by fixed cost increases. On average, these are around 4% a year, or in other words, around 200 million euros. In 2025, especially due to strong wage inflation in Germany, the increase was higher than normal. We were able to offset this higher inflation and expect that In 2026, the increase will be definitely lower. We'll also bring back short-term contingency measures, such as travel restrictions or training and communication spending reductions. Here, I dare really say we are used to it, because we have proved to be successful in the years 2023 and 2024, and it is now urgent need again. In total, this means that more savings will come to the bottom line in 2026 compared to 2025. Before we jump into your question, let me please close the presentation with the details of our new proposed dividend policy. First of all, in principle, our priorities of cash allocation remain unchanged. We focus on capex, we focus on dividend, and deleveraging in that order. Note that we will still rule out M&A until 2027. In the past, we had a stable, very high dividend payout. This was favorable for and rewarded by mostly the REG Foundation. However, a rigid dividend is not adequate in this tough market environment and for a company in transformation. So we are switching to a dividend which is tied to the financial performance of the company. This enables us, first, the long-term sustainability of our dividend. Second, more financial flexibility for us to reach our strategic targets and goals. investors to participate in future growth. And we will roll out a new policy in two steps. At the upcoming AGM in early June, we will propose to pay one euro per share for last year. We offer this as a smooth transition from the previously fixed dividend to the performance-oriented dividend. This is still an outstanding dividend yield of around 7% today. From the AGM 2027 onwards, we will propose to pay out 40 to 60% of the adjusted net income. For this year, this would have resulted, sorry, for last year, excuse me, for last year, this would have resulted in a dividend between 54 and 82 cents per share. The range we provide for the payout ratio allows us to provide a good degree of dividend continuity and reliability in Euro terms. That means we aim at a higher payout ratio in years of weaker financial performance and vice versa. So obviously right now, payout would be rather 60%. At current share price levels, this would imply a yield of still around And let me stress again, the support from the REG Foundation on this change demonstrates the commitment to our success. Thanks a lot for your attention, and now we are happy to take your questions.

We will now begin the question and answer session. The first question comes from the line of Tom Rigglesworth from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.

Thanks very much for the presentation and the opportunity to ask questions, too, if I may. Firstly, just on the change in dividend policy, clearly your shares were not being rewarded for the high yield. But at the same time, I think investors would look at the challenging conditions and say this is not a market that needs more CapEx. You've talked in the past about, you know, share buybacks, probably more so in the last couple of years than you've ever spoken about potentially returning capital through other measures. Does the cut of the dividend mean that a buyback becomes more attractive given how undervalued your shares are? I'm just trying to square where we sit on that. Then with regards to the strategic review of Cinect, can you give us an update there? Have you got a deadline as to when you think you'll come to the conclusion of a strategic review? What are the moving parts? in terms of the process. I think we saw an announcement of an appointment of some bankers at the end of last year, so just keen to know what you think the timeline is there. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Tom, for your questions. The first one on the capital allocation and buyback I give to Klaus, and the second one on the next two questions, please.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, thank you for the question. Dividend policy, I think Christian explained what are we looking for. We need more financial flexibility for, let's say, for our future. And, of course, here, and Christian said it, we have to look for CapEx. Of course, we have projects, fast return projects, which are attractive. So these remain on the list. And as much as you are right with the current utilization of plans, There's not much need for a huge investment at the moment, but there are smaller ones that really promise fast returns. So this is number one. The dividend, of course, will remain an important factor. We want to offer an attractive dividend yield. We are very high right now, but I think our share price is also too low and has to rise. And lastly, or not last deed, then we will actually look for deleveraging. We are very stably financed. We have a very good solid financial foundation. But here we still want to reduce our debt. And, of course, we also don't rule out buyback of shares. So that would depend very much on how strong the cash flow is going to be. But, of course, it remains an option.

Hi, Tom. I take the second question. First of all, I really take pride in saying that we have successfully, with high speed, carved out this business over the course of the last year. And now it is an independent company. What is next? Next is that means we will tackle... different options. Option one is joint venture or maybe specific corporations and, of course, that goes without saying, straight sales, straight divestment. That is what we'll discuss over the course of the next weeks internally in the executive board and then we will come along. That is where we are as of today.

Okay, thank you very much.

The next question comes from the line of David Seamont from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.

Thank you. I think I'm going to go for two as well, please. The first one is you mentioned an oxyno improvement from Q1 onwards, and I've been noticing C4 prices rising recently. Is this the reason for the improvement that you expect there, or is that just passing through higher energy costs that we've seen in the first part of this year? And then just maybe coming back on capital allocation, am I right in thinking that buybacks are the lowest priority use of capital for you? Because it sort of comes to the bottom of the list, but at the current share price and given weekend market volumes, I would have thought deleveraging and new capex would be lower on the list than buybacks at this point. Thanks.

Yeah, thanks, David. Christian starts with Oxino and what we see there, and then capital allocation, I guess, again, and comment on the priority list that we have.

David, I guess it is fair to assume that the last year our Xeno business, let me say, has met the trough point. And for this year, having said so, let me say we see the chances for a slight recovery. How comes? First, there are first positive signs in respect of of permissions given for the area of construction. That is really helpful and maybe over the course of the year that the stimulus program of the government in Berlin could pay off in this direction. As you know, construction is one of the key areas where they want to and where they want to, let me say, increase additional growth. So here might be a good chance. Second, and that is what we should not underestimate, is the announcement of the commission in Brussels that they will overhaul the CO2 trading system. Because that means in future terms, that we would, in respect of our Occino business, benefit from this, and that would even lift up the chances for the sales process to get a better price, referring to this announced changes of the commission in Brussels. So, for 2026, however, there is a chance for an bettering for an uplift because of the construction and maybe for the construction impulse given by the government, which could pay off over the course of the second half of this year. And we do see and hope for some ups in the automotive businesses. So this all together gives us some, let me say, it is a mixture of, let me say, underpinned confidence and good hope that it would turn into the better for Oxeno in this year than it has been last year. And please keep in mind that if, and we do welcome and appreciate the announced changes of the CO2 emission trading system very much, this would additionally better the chances for our Oxeno business getting a more attractive price than maybe before. With this, I hand over to Klaus.

Okay. Thank you, Christian. Maybe a few additions to this. OXENO, when you look into, don't expect, we are not calculating a huge improvement, just to make it clear in terms of quantitative level. But a significant one. And Christian pointed it out very much. And there's also, when you look into, we had a major shutdown in 2025, which cost us quite a lot of money. This is not going to happen in 2026. So these maintenance costs are not there in 2026. We see currently also a little shortage in butadiene in Asia, so we will certainly benefit from this. If the freight route through the Suez Canal goes up again, we will save freight costs as well. All of this together we put into this kind of assumption. And so I think it's not a hope, I think it's clear fact driven. And coming back to your question with priorities, I can only repeat what I said before. I think CapEx is number one. Like I said, we have topics where we get fast returns, and I mean fast means one to two years. We want to remain an attractive dividend company, and so this is, of course, also very important to us. And the leveraging is also clearly, right now when we look to our net financial leverage, it's only at 1.6, yes. If I take our pension obligations into account as well, then it's 2.4. Still very much, let's say, maybe a little bit below average of the market. But I think we believe in the times ahead of us, it's very important to have a very, very sound balance sheet. And so this remains number three. And then again, I can only repeat, if we really have a lot of free cash available, then of course, share buyback remains an option. And so this is maybe just to clarify again, this would be the list, priority list for what we do with our earnings.

That's very clear. Thank you very much.

The next question comes from the line of Chita Nudeshi from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my questions. I had two. First, can you remind us, you know, you mentioned this maintenance shutdown in C4 having an impact in 2025, but you then also had a lot of bonus accrual released through the year. So just remind us, you know, what were the key headwinds and tailwinds outside of the business conditions in your businesses that we should have in mind as we think about the bridge for 2026. And the second question may be for you, Christian. I mean, from your perspective, what do we need to actually see for this sector to really come out of this malaise? Because, you know, we've seen the industrial production globally improve last year PMIs in most regions, at least outside Europe, have been at 50 or about 50. But when we look at the numbers of Evonik, but also most of your competitors, they still look very, very tough. And I guess the question for a lot of us is what can change that? I mean, from your assessment, what do you think we need for the sector to become, you know, let's say more interesting again for investors?

Hi Chetan, yeah, thank you very much for these. The first one on the special effects, bonus provisions and so on goes to Klaus. And then on the broader sector outlook and what we need for the improvement, that's Christian's turn.

Okay, good. When you look back to 2025, of course, the major impact on the batch results, don't get me wrong, that's why I said the improvement will be not a super huge one, was, of course, volume and prices down. But we also had only, I think, every five years or so, a shutdown to do where we take all the entire chain out and have the maintenance, I think, here. it was then, let's say, a lower double-digit million cost for us, which contributed to the result level of Oxino. And of course, the bonus provisions, last year we had good performance bonus, so we had high payouts. This is not the case this year, of course, you are right. And from that point of view, this will also have a release. But, of course, we also have – also in Orsino, we have our cost-cutting programs. This will contribute as well. We reduce still spendings in the unit. So that's all this together. But when you look to the biggest single portion, you are absolutely right. It's the maintenance shutdown, middle double-digit million area plus – less bonus payments in 2026. Okay.

Hi, Chetan. I tried to answer your second question. And let's be, maybe let's start in being very concrete on this. As of today, of course, the chemicals industry looks a little bit lackluster for the markets. But if you look behind the curtain, we could occur sexy And why is it that I come to this kind of conclusion? Yesterday, a German newspaper has penciled and published that there is a good chance for the energy-intensive industries all over Europe to get a relief from an easing of the emission trading system. And all of a sudden, our share prices have remarkably risen up, which means, in other words, for me, that the investors do have realized that if we would, that the pain from regulation, that the pain from this emission trading system would be eased, hence to this we could create a level playing field with our competitors abroad. It could really become a game changer and help us to become for capital markets more attractive. So first issue that we have to tackle is less regulation and create for Brussels and create a level playing field that we could be able to bring our performance straight on the street. Let's keep it like this. I guess we have to differentiate between the companies. As of today, there are companies maybe having reserves, in other words, having additional potentials, maybe by cost-cutting, maybe by divestments, maybe by being in attractive growth niches, maybe by the geopolitical footprint. And those who do not have. I'm convinced that Evonik belongs to the first group, so that is on top. a chance. In Germany, we should maybe give the acceleration of growth, the stimulus program of our government in Berlin, we should give it a chance. And it could start to pay off from the second half of this year onwards. And, of course, maybe last comment about the politics of our days, if we could see an easing of geopolitical tensions, if we could see less tariffs between the United States and China, then of course that would be helpful in an additional way. So that are my ideas about what is need. And I do really bank on the announcement of Brussels in respect of the emission trading system. That could really become a game changer for us. And as I know, the governments in France, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in Poland, in Slovakia and in Germany, too, are elaborating here, let me say, new ideas of how to support the supply and value chains all over Europe, that our economy could, in future, prosper in a better way.

Thank you.

The next question comes from the line of Martin Brodiger from Kepler-Schwerin. Please go ahead.

Yes, hello. Thanks for taking my three questions. Question number one is I have to come back to this CO2 topic with the EU Commission eventually softening this CO2 scheme. including the postponing of the deadline for the free CO2 allowances and also the auction time. Based on your talks with these guys, do you have the impression that the shift in the timeline will be one to two years or five to six years or up to 10 years? Secondly, on cost savings, you expected incremental cost savings in the magnitude of a high double-digit Euro million figure in 2025. Did you achieve that? And going forward, what are the incremental cost savings you expect for 2026? My guess would be 100 million. Is that correct? And then thirdly, on energy costs, I recall that you intended to reduce energy costs from 950 million in 2024 to 900 million in 2025. Did that work out? And what is your best guess for energy costs in 2026, including your hedges?

Yeah, thank you, Martin. The CO2 certificate question will go to Christian, and then on to Klaus for the savings and the energy costs.

Hi, Martin. Let's keep it like this. Give me a chance to split my answer up referring to your question. First, maybe as a sprinter, which would help us, where we would benefit from here in particular in Germany is about the new industrial electricity price system and the compensation of it. That is what would work for the next three years. Decisions in Berlin are already taken and now they wait for the approval from the Commission in Brussels and here I'm confident that it will come soon. So not in due course, instead of soon. That would support our energy cost calculation over the run for the next up to three years. And then it is about the emission trading system. The emission trading system, there's desperate need to overhaul it in a radical way, as mentioned before. Talks are ongoing, and that is what would pay off in the long run, which means if we take investment decisions for new technologies, ETC, here in Europe, and we would be eased, or the relief would be there in respect of the level of the CO2 fees we have to pay, that would be somewhat like a game changer. Could come one. Is it now possible for me to judge upon it about the, let me say, duration, when it is going to happen? No. Here we have to wait until July when the Commission will provide us with a precise, let me say, proposal of what they will have in mind. And in the meanwhile, there will be a lot of negotiation and talks about how we could become, or let me say, how we could bring this beef that it would be digestible in future for each and everybody to the table.

The next part of the question? Yeah. So first, the cost question. So when you look into 2025, we can say our programs went very well. So we achieved more than a reduction of 850 headcounts in 2025. That means these costs are really going. Of course, they went over the course of the year, so it's not a full year impact. And we also heard Christian saying that we have the plan to have 1,000 more in 2026. Here, the same will apply over the course of the year. When I look into the numbers of 2025, I can tell you we reached almost the level we wanted to reach in terms of cost savings. However, and then now it comes to however, we also had a lot of cost increases that are more or less compensated in fact of the costing cost savings. So of course we had huge increases in wages in the last year. Germany alone, just to give you a benchmark here, was 7% wage increase in 2025. And we had also across the world significant increases in wage because of inflation compensation. I don't have to explain it to you. You know it yourself very well. So this actually resulted that we kept our fixed costs more or less stable. That was 2025. 2026 will be totally different. We will have it again with our cost-saving measures. We have the program. We know that we will deliver. And I'm certainly not expecting that kind of increase in factor cost increase, fixed cost increase in 2026. So that means at the year end, certainly, along from this portion, we will see quite a significant reduction in fixed cost. So that is certainly happening in 2025. I don't think that we will see much more than 1% increase in fixed costs. That is at least the target of the CFO or interim CFO, if you want to say. But in 2026, you can take my word, you will see a significant increase in fixed costs, which we unfortunately, reasons that I've given, could not achieve in 2025. 2026, I think, Over and above, Christian, we have also contingency measures. However, they will, like the word says, is not permanent one. The cap count reduction, of course, is a permanent. And over and above, we have the temporary ones, which will support the results in 2026. I'm coming to your question about energy costs. Yeah, in 2025, you are right, we saw quite a decline in energy costs, double-digit million decline in our energy costs, and we reached a level now below 900 million euros in our total energy bill. Unfortunately, we will not see much more decrease in 2026. Here is a different story to what I just said on the fixed cost side. So... We saw also pricing in the spot markets for energy, gas going up. Strong winter in the U.S. contributed to this. Of course, it will not stay on forever. Nevertheless, in a nutshell, I have to say we believe in 2026 we will see a low double-digit million decrease in energy costs, but not more.

Thank you.

The last question for today is from Christian Bell from UBS. Please go ahead.

Hello. Thanks for the presentation and allowing us to take some questions. I've got three. The first one is, if you are expecting significantly lower fixed costs, as you just explained in the previous questions, in 2026, a long slide, flat to slightly higher sales, could you just help us understand why that does not translate into earnings growth for 2026? That's the question?

Yep, that's it.

Okay. Oh, hello. Yeah, yeah. We hear you. Oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah. I was waiting for the answer. I can ask my second and third question as well. The second one would be the pre-announcement today together with the level of detail provided a month before the result was not something we typically see from Evonik. So I was just curious as to why you decided to pre-announce today. And then finally, as a result of the new dividend policy and the current outlook, on our rough calculations, that suggests dividends to RAG could be around €100 million lower. To the extent you can comment, do you know how RAG plans to address that potential shortfall? or are they comfortable with a lower level of income? Thank you, sorry, that's the end of my questions.

Never mind, never mind. Maybe I take the one about the ad hoc communication style. You know, I'm close to falling in love with my chief counselor, and he has given me strong advice to give this ad hoc communication, and that is what, for me, it was a must to obey. So that is the reason why we have decided to have this talk communication. In respect of REG Foundation, first it is to underpin that they do support the strategy of the company and that they do have totally, totally agreed upon the suggestion saying here we need a new EVONI strategy, dividend strategy, because that is That is helping us in respect of future growth and so here they are totally supportive. That is what I could say. So, comfortable and convenient for them, yes. And the first question about lower fixed costs, I have to now to hand over to Klaus.

Yes, thank you Christian. Maybe one addition. If you calculate the numbers, One euro is actually resulting in 466 million euros of dividend payment compared to the one you paid so far is 545. So it's roughly, let's say, 120 million below. And then you can see what the share of ROG is and you get an applicator feeling for what it means. Coming down to the other question, let's say a fixed growth not translating into earnings growth. Yeah, this is a good question. And the major or the biggest point towards this one is the development in our sign-in business. So here we have, I think that is also, capital markets know well about it. You make your own assumptions. But we see the new capacities coming in. We have the new NSU capacity coming in in Q4. We will have another new capacity from Lieben coming in, most likely Q2. And so we anticipate and we see it already from the decrease in price level. US, super stable, protected territory by tariffs. Europe, slight decrease so far, strong decrease in China. and also moderate, let's say, in Asia. All of this together, unfortunately, has an impact, and it will consume, let's say, quite a bit of the fixed cost savings. That's why we put our guidance into the more or less stable kind of results in 2026 compared to 2025. That's the biggest single reason.

Sorry, I'm just still not fully able to understand. The impression I got from your previous answer on the previous questions was that we would see a net decline in fixed costs. But are you actually saying that we're going to see a net increase?

No, sorry. I was talking about our Messianic business, amino acids. And here we have the situation that we have more capacity built up at the end of last year. And this is reducing the market price. And this is quite a significant counter effect. Not on the fixed cost side, it's actually more or less on the contribution margin side. And therefore, you don't see the full impact of the earnings reduction, on the fixed cost reduction, sorry.

Sorry.

Fixed cost reduction on Evonik is compensated to some degree by decline in messianic business.

I still don't fully understand. At the group level, you're guiding to higher sales, but then you're also saying your fixed costs are going down, but you're still expecting flat to slightly lower earnings growth. So I still don't quite understand how that works.

Maybe we take this after the call, and we'll call you later and clarify this.

What a beautiful bridge you've built for me, because that is now bringing us to the end of the first call of this young earnings session for our sector. All the best to you, and I hope we meet soon in person on the road. And that is the end for our call today. Thanks for your attention. Take care and goodbye.