Hensoldt Ag Unsp/Adr

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Henselt AG H1 results 2025 analyst conference call. I am Helise, the chorus call operator. I would like to remind you that all participants will be in listen-only mode and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. You can register for questions at any time by pressing star and one on your telephone. For operator assistance, please press star and zero. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Veronica Endres, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon, everybody, and a warm welcome to Hensel's H1 2025 results call. Thank you all for joining us today. I'm Veronika Endres, Head of Investor Relations at Hensholt, and with me are our CEO, Oliver Dörre, and our CFO, Christian Ladona. Oliver and Christian will guide you through this presentation today, which will be followed by a Q&A session. And with that, over to you, Oliver.

Well, thank you very much, Veronika, and a very warm welcome to all our investors and the analysts following Hensholt. It's really great to have you with us today. I'd like to start with a quick snapshot of where we stand on the four axes of our North Star strategy. Overall, we are progressing strongly. The eight major transformation programs steered by our group transformation office are advancing as planned and already making an impact. Let's begin with Grow with Focus. We have essentially completed the sales transformation. Resources and priorities are now fully aligned with our strategic goals. Germany is and will remain our anchor customer, forming the foundation of our business, supported by Europe and selected international markets. We are appointing our first key account leads, embedding customer centricity even deeper into our organization. Going forward, it's not just about selling, it's about serving our customers, better than anyone else. On deliver at scale, this has become a clear imperative, underscored by the recent statements from Chancellor Merz and Defense Minister Pistorius. I will elaborate on this shortly, but one thing is clear. The chimneys at our factories are smoking. We have stabilized the operation of our new logistics center and are systematically clearing production backlogs. running electronics production in two shifts and logistics in three. The move to our Oberkochen site is well underway and on schedule. On pioneering software-defined defense, I'm pleased to announce that Sven Hoyersch joins Hensoldt tomorrow as our new head of SDD and digitalization. As a former German Air Force officer, Sven brings deep operational expertise that will significantly accelerate our progress here. Finally, on culture, which is crucial as we grow, I left our recent leadership team meeting inspired and proud. Among our top 80 leaders, there is no strong shared determination to take Hansolt to the next level together. Turning to the geopolitical landscape, the NATO summit in June reaffirmed what we expected. Despite doubts earlier this year, the alliance is united and determined. There is a broad consensus that defense spending must reach 3.5% of GDP, and NATO is clearly preparing for the possibility of conflict with a peer adversary. From where I stand, it's evident that Germany is stepping into its role as the frontrunner of NATO's European pillar, with far-reaching implications. The sharp increase in Germany defense budget will set procurement benchmarks for Europe and drive a de facto consolidation in our industry. With our deep roots in Germany and unmatched customer intimacy, Hensoldt is ideally positioned to play a central role in this development. You may recall this timeline from our Q1 call, and since then, our confidence has only grown that Germany's 2025 defense budget will be approved right after the summer break, the government's Eckwertepapier, the cornerstones of the budget, are already outlined, and they set clear priorities. We expect OEM-level orders to start arriving by the end of this year, and with the usual downflow, these will start appearing in our order book no later than mid-2026. Here you see the trajectory of Germany's defense budget over the next five years. It will more than double, reaching 3.5% of GDP, about $160 billion, including support for Ukraine, by 2029. To put it plainly, while others are still reading the timetable, Germany's train has already left the station and it's picking up speed. Importantly, it's not just about more money. It's about focus and purpose. Chancellor Maersk has promised to build the strongest conventional army in Europe, and procurement reflects that ambition. We see a dual approach. On one side, a massive ramp-up of conventional capabilities, with, for example, armored vehicles orders reaching five-digit numbers through high-volume frame contracts. On the other, increasing investment in technological sovereignty with significant R&D spent on advanced capabilities. As a high-tech solution provider, Hensoldt is perfectly positioned to benefit from both trends. Looking at our order intake in H1 2025, Eurofighter and TML4D once again drove sales to a strong 1.5 billion. lifting our order backlog to a record of €7 billion. We are particularly proud that Ukraine will soon receive an enhanced TMA-L4D capable of detecting enemy artillery and mortar sites, proof of how our software-driven products can deliver new functionality rapidly. The outlook for the second half of the year remains bright, and we see the strong momentum continuing for the rest of 2025 with a series of key orders on the horizon. We expect major contracts across air defense radars, Eurofighter programs, ground-based systems, and sustainment projects like the German P-8 Poseidon. Notably, we anticipate orders exceeding 500 million euro for optronics, and self-protection systems for platforms such as the new reconnaissance vehicle Corsac, Leopard 2 tank, and Boxer RCT-30. Our radars continue to sell exceptionally well with additional orders for TML-4D and SPEXA coming up. New projects for the Eurofighter and Algeria's border surveillance will further contribute significantly. Finally, a quick outlook at how we are ramping up capacity. Since 2022, we have been expanding production capacity through continuous improvement, automation, and outsourcing, integrated into our annual capex. This, of course, will continue. Our new logistics center and the Oberkochen move are transformative, laying the foundation for scale, efficiency, and profitability. Thanks to these initiatives, we have sufficient capacity for the next two to three years. But with the German defense budget rising and visibility on future orders improving, we are preparing a step change in our operations, fundamentally transforming our industrial system to ensure scalability, resilience, and customer service excellence. And with this view, what lies ahead? I'll now hand over to Christian for a closer look at the numbers, and thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Oliver, and I'm now happy to provide you with our financials for the first half of 2025. Once again, we achieved a solid top-line performance in the first six months. Order intake developed as planned, with orders totaling €1.4 billion. Oliver has already elaborated on the main drivers. Group revenue increased by 11% to 944 million euro, and was driven by sustained, strong momentum of our electronics business. Revenues in the sensor segment were solid, despite anticipated slower start caused by the ramp-up of the new logistics center, particularly in Q1. The level of revenue further declined in line with our expectations. Excluding pass-through, our core revenue grew strongly by 14%. With a book-to-bill of 1.5 times, our order backlog reached a new record level, exceeding 7 billion euro for the first time, providing us with an excellent visibility. The bottom line met our expectations, too. Adjusted EBITDA increased to 107 million euro, with an adjusted EBITDA margin of 11.3%. The development was driven by product mix effects, as well as the ramp-up of our new logistics center, which led to a temporary lower productivity within the census segment. These impacts on margin from the logistical ramp-up have eased in Q2 and will further dilute as the year progresses. In addition, we are seeing the realization of cost and revenue synergies from the ESG acquisition, which are beginning to contribute to our operational performance. Adjusted EBIT was impacted similarly by these effects, amounting to 49 million euro in H1 2025. Cash flow followed our usual seasonal profile with an adjusted free cash flow of minus 181 million euro. The development was driven by investments in our working capital to manage the planned business volume in the second half of the year. To conclude, Our bottom line performed in line with our expectations and is set to gain further momentum as the year progresses. Let's now have a look at our segments. In the census segment, we achieved a solid order intake of nearly 1.3 billion euro, on par with previous year's high comparison base. This corresponds to a book-to-bill of 1.5 times. Revenue in the sensor segment increased to 817 million euros. Despite the flow of starting our radar production, revenue performance was solid and in line with our expectations. Excluding the declining share of past revenue, sensors' core revenue increased by 13%. Adjusted EVPA in sensors amounted to 105 million euros. Besides product mix effects, the margin development reflected the lower productivity in the segment due to the ramp-up of the logistics center. As mentioned, the temporary effects from the logistic ramp-up are expected to further dilute during this year. Optronics achieved a strong order intake with orders summing up to €164 million. This was primarily driven by sites for ground-based systems as well as self-protection systems. Revenue performance in Optronics was excellent, continuing the momentum from the previous quarters. This was boosted but a sustained strong performance of the German entity, which realized revenue growth of 28% in H1. Main driver was accelerated production in ground-based systems. As shown in light green on the slide, the South African entity achieved modest growth in order intake. Revenue development, however, continued to reflect the effects from the ongoing technology change and strategic realignment. In terms of margins, Optronics continued to show a strong improvement compared to prior year. This was driven by high volumes in the German units, supported by lower OPEX. Also, the South African business was still impacted by lower volumes. The action plan we have implemented continues to show results. Overall, Optronics realized an adjusted EBITDA of 1 million euros. As announced last week, Hensel has now successfully issued its promissory note loan. By replacing the previous bridge facility, we have reached the final milestone in establishing our long-term financing strategy. With the placement, we took advantage of the new funding channels unlocked by our recent refinancing. And the result speaks for itself. The significantly oversubscribed placement attracted a broad base of investors, and we secured 300 million Euro at the lower end of the pricing range. With our comprehensive refinancing now complete, we have significantly strengthened our capital structure, gaining higher financial flexibility, reducing costs, and achieving greater independence through a diversified debt profile. At the same time, we remain committed to a disciplined deleveraging path, confirming a leverage of around 1.5 times for this year. With this solid financial framework in place, let me now come to the guidance for the fiscal year 2025. First and foremost, we are fully on track to achieve our 2025 targets and hereby reaffirm the guidance we published in February. we continue to anticipate strong order intake in 2025 with a book-to-bill ratio of approximately 1.2 times. As Oliver highlighted earlier, we expect strong additional demand driven by the increased defense budget. While we currently foresee most of these orders being placed in 2026 or beyond, there is potential for some contracts to be awarded earlier, which could provide further tailwind to order intake and book-to-bill ratio. However, as of today, there are still uncertainties around the order flow and exact timing. We expect to gain more clarity on these issues after the German budget is approved in September, followed shortly by parliamentary approvals with defense procurement projects. As outlined in February, we expect revenue in a corridor between 2.5 and 2.6 billion euro. That said, The rollout of our two transformation programs, the new logistics center on the one hand and the new site over Cochrane on the other, may temporarily slightly moderate the pace of growth, resulting in revenue being towards the lower end of our guidance range. These initiatives are strategic investments in our long-term competitiveness and operational efficiency. While they may slightly impact short-term top-line performance, they are key to drive sustainable growth over time. We forecast an adjusted EBITDA margin of around 18%, and for our free cash flow, we expect continued strong performance with a cash conversion target approximately 50% to 60%. Net leverage is expected to run stable to around 1.5 times, reflecting our mentioned disciplined financial management. Finally, Our dividend payout ratio will continue to be in the range of 30% to 40% of adjusted income and in line with our commitment to shareholder returns. Coming to a conclusion, let me mention the following key takeaways. The ever-increasing demand for products and solutions is reflected in the substantial order intake across all hands-on divisions. Our order book exceeded €7 billion for the first time. a great milestone achievement that continues to provide further excellent visibility for the years to come. Paired with solid revenue performance, we're confirming our growth trajectory and guidance for fully 2025. Our outlook remains promising, and we are strongly positioned for the upcoming growth. Germany is taking the leadership role for defense in Europe, and hands are left to our strategy, to our products, and the capacities. to play a major role in upcoming German and European procurement programs. And we expect to have high visibility and additional orders towards the end of this year. Based on the planning security, we are ready to take strategic investments to secure long-term success. Thank you very much. And with that, we are now happy to open the floor to your questions.

Will I now begin the question and answer session? Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and 1 on the touch-tone telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and 2. Participants are requested to use only handsets while asking a question. Anyone who has a question may press star and 1 at this time. The first question comes from the line of Sebastian Grover, BNP Paribas. Please go ahead. Go ahead.

Hi, Mika, hi, Oliver, and hi, Christian. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one would be just a pulse check post-NATO summit in June. So with the quarter one results in May, you had raised the 2030 sales goal to $6 billion. That was based on a 2.5% related GDP defense spending. So in the meantime, as you also mentioned yourself, apparently we had NATO agreeing upon 3.5%. We had Germany forging ahead with a 3.5 by 29% already. And also your pipeline, for instance, for the DRMO, for D-Radar, keeps swelling every quarter. So how might the recent changes impact your business and mid-term planning, if we could start that, please?

Yeah, thank you very much, Sebastian. This is Oliver speaking. Indeed, and I think we stay to the the reasoning that we put on place when we raised it to $6 billion. Indeed, I see that the confidence is progressively improving on really those orders coming in, but still we're in the dynamics on putting all these orders offers with the customers. And as Christian and I have outlined in the presentation, based on the confirmation of the annual budgets, in Parliament in September, that's the planning for 2025, and then the budget for the years to come, which will be 26 forward, then in November, I think that is about the time when we have the visibility to, of course, re-evaluate this 2030 ambition. Again, yet a very promising, confident-raising discussion But as a matter of fact, we stick to our conservative approach. It's discussions and not yet in writing. Once it is in writing, of course, as we announced many times, we will revisit our future guidance and this ambition.

Okay. That's understandable on one side. And maybe can you, however, shed some light around you have seen more, especially also outside German interest in the meantime, or how is the regional overall pipeline discussion unfolded?

Very clearly, Sebastian, and I think Christian outlined it, the focus at the moment, I mean, all this growth, all this market potential is developing really well. Our focus as a management at the moment is really to set the prerequisite that we can digest these massive orders which we expect from the market so it's really about our production about our infrastructure and all of what we have in place so the past weeks we we have started as christian outlined operations 2.0 to really look at the next step still of course not being under pressure because with the the recent investments since 2022 the 1 billion we're well positioned for 26 27 But as you say, I mean, the past three months, the market demand, especially Germany, has developed significantly, especially on land systems. We see the next Eurofighters under discussion, and that is not only Germany. I think Europe the same. However, the maturity level in Europe is a different one. I mean, here in Europe, some of the nations funding their defense spend are looking on loans. That is what we hear in the news. And so I would see that Europe part comes a bit later, which perfectly matches also our planning as at the moment we are working with our teams to prepare the planning for the year 2026 following. More concretely, we see first the initiative of Minister Pistorius that Germany is really pushing for framework contracts, also offering other nations to join. So one example is the Leopard tanks, where at the moment, on top of the 103 German tanks, we see the Netherlands, Hungary, other nations coming up to see that they want to join these frameworks. Same applies for air defense. Probably you saw the news that BINBW is facilitating contracts for Denmark, joining EFI now. So, for sure, especially in EFI, we see a lot of momentum. You have might also read the news that deal has negotiated with Switzerland, with Sweden, and then Denmark. So all of this, of course, will be downflowing to us. Next part is Pegasus. You know on Pegasus, which is really also progressing on project level, we have passed the CDR in June for the payload. And also here we see now with the U.S. assets probably being not that available anymore as in the past, that those strategic assets, like a second aircraft, are addressed. So far, the demand came rather from rest of world, far countries, but now we see a massive demand coming up in Europe. So, maybe that's three examples, and hopefully with that, Sebastian, I answered your question.

Thank you so much for the color. If I may just quickly come back to the quarter 2 or H1 performance, and let me start on the sender segment. You pointed earlier on to the revenue and cost images that we have seen with ESG. Can you quantify what the overall impact of ESG was in the second quarter? Because I'm apparently also interested in the underlying development in the core business.

Yeah, Sebastian, thanks for this question. I think let's be clear. I think it's absolutely fair to separate Q1 because technically we accounted this year, which we did not do for last year. But when we come to Q2, I have to say this business is more and more integrated. It's part of the multi-domain solutions business. And we see the synergies coming up. But when I especially look at cost synergies, these are only possible because it's now one group, and also in terms of two or three concrete programs, such as Counter UIS, we see this is only possible within the group. So, it does not make sense for me to really outline this Q2. It would not create a solid picture. So, this is why I see Q1 essentially showing separately, but from Q2 onwards, it's an integrated company.

I would even add, I mean, part of the post-merger integration and really the successful work we have done with the team, we also moved some business units and so on. So it is hard to identify the ESG structures as part of our Hensol 2.0 that we started January this year. I think we would compare apples and pears if we look back into the past structures.

Okay, gotcha. And the last question for me is just quickly around the electronics business in here and the South African entity. So I appreciate it's a relatively small business per se, but nonetheless, we have seen orders indeed inflecting quite a bit. I think first half has been around two times lookable. So my question is simply, when will we really see then also the revenue bit accelerating? And if you could also shed some light around what you expect in terms of the profitability, i.e. when it's swinging back to to profit and could we also think of this business becoming a double-digit EBITDA margin business over time?

Sebastian, my view on that, let's be careful on that. I think we have outlined that we are carefully rethinking strategic options and they were also in the press. So this is why I'm currently a little bit hesitating to give more details on that. I think the increase in orders was, yeah, a good sign, but how it then will reflect in revenues and profitability, let's see. So I'm a little bit hesitating on that to provide more details, I have to say.

Okay. May I go back to you? Thank you both.

We now have a question from the line of Aymeric Pullen from . Please go ahead.

Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. The question is a follow-up on the ESG contribution. So now you don't report it anymore, but could you give us an idea of how advanced you are in terms of extracting the cost synergies that you were marking when you made that acquisition? And indeed, just to get a feel for the outlook of the RDT&E market that it serves, is it the same as it was before the acquisition or has it been enhanced? by the market size that obviously will be a lot bigger. That would be the first question. And secondly, you mentioned the opportunity and the size of potential investment that you need to do between working capital or capex for capacity and potentially also M&A. So how do you plan to fund it? Do you expect more advance payment from the German government or will it have to come from the cash flow of the group?

Maybe I start with the market potential, and then I leave the room for Christian to go a bit more in the number crunching, so to say. Of course, I would at that stage definitely say that with the dynamics that we see on the market and the assets and capabilities we have with ESG, acquired with ESG, we see strong opportunities as far as market potential is concerned. Three elements that probably as examples I would highlight. First thing is the U.S. programs supporting exports, so that's why the tariff discussion and everything we saw recently is of course looked at from a German perspective. with some question marks and quite critical. But on the other hand, for us, it also bears a huge potential. As you know, we're with ESG heavily engaged in P-8 program with Boeing in the F-35s, in the CH-47, and coming back to my visit at the Paris air show recently, we definitely see that now the discussion framework with those companies is opening up, and F-127 Lockheed Martin would just be another example where definitely we see a growing potential where we take the commercial power of a handsaw combined with the capabilities of ESG, where especially also in the maritime domain, where so far we haven't been that strong, we can take a stronger role. Second thing is, of course, the idea of solutions, which is around our pioneering software-defined defense approach, where also we see a couple of initiatives now under the new procurement plans of Germany, where ESG, I would say, is the perfect lead within the Henselt organization, combining our products, with third-party products, and that is, for example, in the recent cooperation we have started with Quantum, where ESG is now the point of contact of bringing, you know, Quantum UAV solutions, Mosaic, their AI stack, together with the solutions we have in Hensoldt, and that is the way of business that ESG has been used to, which we can now significantly leverage on. And the last part is probably very fresh, but it's the element of logistics. As you know, also in Q1, we had reported the Sebel contract, our support to the German logistics system. As we're discussing a return to conscripts and looking at the scarcity of personnel in the German armed forces, we see a growing discussion on how industry could step in and give logistical support, IT support, in kind of shared approaches to the customer. And that is something where also with the capabilities of ESG, we are very well positioned. Of course, all of that too early to quantify, but qualitatively, it's, again, an opening perspective which confirms us in really doing this acquisition, which I think can be considered as a very strong success.

Yeah, Marek, just to add, I think we've outlined in our MLS column, we acquired ESG, this 19 million cost synergies, run rate until 2028, and a similar figure for revenue, or if they aim big from revenues, they were fully on track, I can say. So, when you look at the actual figures, the pro-lata figure flows in quite well. And maybe some comments on operations 2.0 and how we will fund that. I think, let's be honest, the situation we currently see, which is very promising, is now I would say two months old. That means when you look at slide 10 of the presentation, We are now really designing operations 2.0, and formally we will kick off this process in September. And then I think around the capital market day, we are in a position to give you some more details on that, how the layout can look like, and then also some figures. So, this will now last a few weeks. I think the good news is what you also see on page 10 and what Oliver has outlined, that the recent decision we have taken in the last two to three years, we are well on track until 2027, 2028. That means we have enough time now in the next six to 12 months to come out with a good concept and then go in the realization phase that then by 2027, 2028, we have the infrastructure in place. And in terms of funding, please be a little bit patient. I cannot comment on that yet because it will also depend on how we model this. Will we have a turnkey infrastructure where we can move on? Will there be investors which are currently asking us to work with us together who fund the infrastructure and we only go in with our technology? Then it will be rather different than funding it all on our own. But nevertheless, let's be clear around the capital market that there will be some more details also around funding.

Maybe to add on this one, last week I attended a roundtable with Minister Pistorius and roughly 40 leaders of the German industry. That was along the signing of the new planning and procurement acceleration law through the German cabinet. So we expect that law to be endorsed by the parliament after the summer break. And part of that discussion, which of course is in a very early stage, The government is also asking, and you also saw that the Minister of Economy, Reiche, is establishing this senior expert group. So part of that discussion is also how could government support, and we made very clear it's not about loans. I mean, with access to the financial market, and we saw what Christian and his team have achieved, which I think is very much successful. I mean, we made very clear to the government we need more concrete support. That message is out, and I think also here we shall expect some contribution, and putting all of that together, I agree with Christian that around the capital market day we can probably deliver the clear perspective on this one.

Many thanks.

The next question comes from the line of Christoph Menard from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon. I had three questions. The first one is on electronics and the German entity. The incremental margin that you're incurring on this entity keeps improving. I mean, between H1 and Q1. I just, I mean, I just wanted to understand what, I mean, if we forget about South Africa at the moment, when do you think we're going to have a good idea of where the margin could stabilize on that? Because I think we had, you guided us to a progressive recovery in margin in optronics, but it seems to me that there is a pretty good improvement quarter on quarter. That's the first question. The second was on free cash performance. In the number you've reported, which was down year on year, is there anything that is related to some inventory buildup ahead of the logistic center moves so that we better understand the swings? And the last question is kind of more broader and general. You mentioned at the very beginning the presentation, the new sale and business development team that has been put in place. I was wondering, what is their mandate? I mean, is it chasing export contracts? It seems, I mean, you always need sales, but it seems that at the moment, order intake will not be an issue for the future. So I was wondering about what was their mandate within the organization for the coming years. Thank you.

Thanks, Gustav, for your question. So first question of Phonics. As you say, we are proud that we have this quarter-on-quarter performance. I think we will have this, I would say, underlying performance moving on, but we should not forget in the second half here we have now the movement of production from the cult size area to the new site. This could impact, of course, a little bit margins, and this is why I'm still a little bit careful on that. But the good news, when you look at how we manage our logistics center, that this margin is diluting, that we are contributing. And I was always saying, okay, look, last year we were around 7% on the segment. That figure around 10% is realistic from my point of view to reach within the segment for this year. Second question, working capital in connection with logistics center. Yes, I would assume that a figure around 20 million is there, which was built up around logistics center on the one hand and some productivity impacts. But this will fade out also during the year, as we have seen also in H1. So this is my view on electronics margins and working capital.

Yeah, so on the new business development team, as a matter of fact, I have to say this is not new in that sense that we're building up a huge force or something like that. It's rather of better orchestrating what we have. And I would, in explaining what is a task, what is a mandate, I would mention three elements. The first one, It's about a new operating model where we manage better our central, which is more about account management, political affairs, and so on, our central sales functions with the decentral sales functions, which are in the divisions. So this is a lot about efficiency, but it's also in a growing market environment managing orchestrating demand. Where are the priorities? Where do we sell the TML4Ds, the various products? We have, of course, the fast, the quick sellers, the ones which go at a level of scale, and then we have others which also need lead time. So that needs some orchestration between the divisional, which is more product-project oriented, and the central sales, which are managing our customer relations. The second element is the account management. So very clearly, we have identified strategic accounts, and I think we highlighted them. It's about KNDS. It's about Rheinmetall, the big legal OEMs, but it's also about shipyards. It's about Airbus, Airbus helicopters. And we put strategic account managers in place, and that is really to nurture those customers penetrating those customers, which in some parts are only with one product, but we have the possibility to really penetrate those customers with a full portfolio, but it's also shaping our future, where we see that those customers are significantly important to shape our product roadmaps, which so far has been more opportunistic, so it's really an investment into our future. And last but not least, in times where we see this ever-increasing demand, where for sure, and we experienced it earlier this year, with the ramp up of Leichingen, it's also about to manage customer relations and customer satisfaction to have a close alignment on the delivery milestones in a system that is really under challenge. And here this account management, strategic account management will be a strong benefit on how we do our sales and interaction with our customers. And the last one is a regional focus. where now we have agreed on those five worldwide regional clusters. And probably coming back to an earlier question of Sebastian on the international business, we see definitely based on G2G agendas that there's a strong G2G agenda between India and Germany. So I've just recently traveled to India. Also did it last year with the Chancellor. So that is really where we are paving the way in a more strategic manner to opening new markets for us. Same applies to Singapore, where we have a strong outlet into the Asia Pacific market. And this is more in a sense of building a sustainable path than now, you know, harvesting and getting opportunistic orders in. That's the transfer, and I think that is really about now with the peak that we are expecting to happen in Germany and Europe, that also with the industrial setup that we are building up, that we can sustain this growth, then with complementing orders coming in internationally, and that's what our sales transformation is about.

Thank you very much. Very, very comprehensive work. Thank you.

We now have a question coming from David Perry from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Yes, hello. Good afternoon, Oliver and Christian. Thanks for taking the questions. Three, please, as well. So sitting here in London, we keep seeing these incredible stories on Bloomberg and Reuters about the number of armoured vehicles Germany is going to buy. And I know it's not locked down in law yet, but I think two nights ago it was 3,000 boxers and 3,500 from Patria, et cetera. Can you check, on these German vehicles, will you always do the periscope, or are you going to have to compete with someone else? That was the first question. The second one is, if it's always Hensel, and I know you've asked us to be patient about slide 10, which is a very good slide. But does slide 10 mean that that middle bit, new site over Cochrane, do you need a second over Cochrane to do this? Would be a related question. And then my third one is just TRML, continuing to win orders, the Ukraine one. I think you've talked about going to up to 30 units in 27, but any thoughts about potentially how many you could build thereafter 27 at an annual rate? Thank you.

Hi, David. Thanks for the question. I'll start with question two, answering question two before I hand over to Oliver for one and three. So, no, we do not currently see a second site over Cochrane. We are just finishing the first. And then we will see. So again, here I think around the capital market is the right moment to put more and more figures on the table. But nevertheless, there are one, two, three, four ideas already there. But let's see. But I do not think that a second overclocking in this size and magnitude will be needed. And also in terms of resilience might be adequate. So here we will go other ways from my perspective.

Of course, David, now going into all these vehicles, we could spend the afternoon talking about it, but at least I would try to give a shed of light on what is happening. Indeed, we need differentiation. I mean, the 8,500, so that's talking about 5,000 boxes and 3,500 from Patria. plus 1,000 leopards which are in the room on top and all of that. I think for each and every project, and that's part of also why we cannot tell you at that stage what is the future ambition, the guidance, and all of that, because that is what we're still sorting out with the OEMs. What is clear, and that's why we have quite a clear perspective, is that for the puma and the leopard, we do the weapon sites and the periscopes. And that is clear. That is under negotiation. So that kind of set, I mean, despite that there is competition on the market with Elbit, for example, Israel, also with Thales, but Thales UK rather on these ones. I mean, that's really an integral part of the systems. And in that regard, I think we don't have any risk related to those orders. The second element is now the new wheel-based infantry fighting vehicle, the Boxer, or they call it RCT-30. In the past, it was called the Pumbo. It comes from the Puma and the Boxer because they would put the Puma turret on the Boxer vehicle. Also here, I think as we take the turret from the Puma, our weapon side as well as the periscopes are definitely set. So that is the strong part. Corsac, I think we have mentioned that. That's a new reconnaissance vehicle where we also see a massive discussion on additional quantities. That is a fully new one where also Hensoldt is now stepping up into bringing all those sensors together, and probably that's a growth area for us in this vehicle market as we go forward, because so far the sensors within the vehicle have been designed for a specific function and purpose. There is hardly any integration on the vehicle between the various sides, and as you can imagine, bringing a good order of battle, a good situational awareness, It would be great if we could combine all those sensors together. And that's actually what we're doing with the Corsac at the moment with our Ceretron software. And the big opportunity is once that is done, given the fact that with several sensors we are across those platforms, we can then augment. And that is the good example for the software-defined defense approach. a communication platform, the C2 computers in those platforms could host that additional software where we could connect those various sensors together. And that's the growing part. And then you have many other smaller vehicles where we see, like, for example, the remotely controlled Howitzer, the vehicle Howitzer, where we put driver sites, where we can put see-through armored systems, a new 360 degrees, and all of this is upsell potential across. But again, yet it's across those various vehicle types, a very different maturity of the discussions we are having. If you see the Puma Leopard, where we have a full visibility, but for all those others, partially we're also in competition, of course, But I would definitely say in Germany we have a unique positioning as the national censor house.

That's very clear. And just the last one was the TRML opportunities longer term, please.

Yeah. So, again, I mean, that's part of the discussion that Christian was referring to. For sure, at the moment, ESSI is really lifting up. And I think in some of the previous calls, I told you about a 2 billion potential selling those TML4Ds across Europe, which is maturing. Germany, looking what we have under contract so far. We have the discussion, and if we look only at Germany as talking as a former air defender, of course not being the military responsible, but I would see a potential between 40 and 60 radars to cover full Germany with air defense. However, this demand is not yet clearly in writing on the table. If we look at what is on the table, I think we're well positioned with what we did with lighting, with the incremental improvement, with an annual capacity of up to 30, which is absolutely not only feasible, but which is clearly in the planning with what we have set up. And part of the operations 2.0 that Christian is referring, of course, we look at what would it need in the sense of augmenting existing capabilities, but also building, extending our TML4D production, probably in synergies with other elements. And last but not least, what we at Sensol see as a business potential for the future, doing build-to-print, for Radars of Lockheed Martin. We are doing that for Elta today. We could also consider going into partnerships with other industries and have them build or at least finally assemble our TML4Ds. So we have a broad spectrum of possibilities. I would say have a good visibility on the quality of demand, which is progressively increasing, but yet we are not sure on the exact quantities. Once this is clear, we will tear one of the other scenarios that I've outlined.

Very clear. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you at the CMD. We too.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to Veronica Endres for any closing remarks.

Thank you all for listening today, and as always, should you have any further questions, the IR team is around all day to follow up. With that, have a great day. Thank you, and goodbye.