Huhtamaki Oy Ser 1

Good morning all and welcome to Uhtamaki's results call for the fourth quarter of 2025. My name is Kristian Tammela, VP of IER.

Today we have a presentation as usual first by our president and CEO Ralf Wunderlich and then by our CFO Tuomas Gerst. After that we'll segment in the quarter.

But look at the full year for food service, very similar picture on net sales and very similar pictures on actions to improve profitability. So call it self-help activities. Raw material was stable, but again, very, very good outcome from the cost out projects the segment did launch and execute on. And we saw a margin which improved over the full year to 9.3%. So even though we had a very soft top line, we were able to improve margin to a healthy 9.3% in food service. Especially happy to see that the focus on cash also for food service really played out. 131 million, that's 30 plus million stronger than the year before. Moving swiftly on to North America. And North America is one of the two segments where we see volume growth. In a market where consumer confidence was very low, it's extremely pleasing to see that we were able to continue to have volume growth, not just in the quarter, but also for the full year. You might remember Q3, so we had a very weak Q3. And we were hoping and we were seeing then that we saw operational improvements. We saw strong volumes coming in the quarter. So we were happy to see that our margin bounced back to 12%, 12.1% in the quarter. So volume up. We continue to see, as mentioned during the year, pressure on price. So pricing was down. And also North America in the quarter had a lot of focus on cash and delivered a very strong operating cash flow outcome in the quarter. Moving to the full year, same thing I mentioned before, volume growth for the full year. That's encouraging, but negative impact overall on comparable growth because of the pricing impact. So just negative here overall on comparable growth. Now operational costs increased and we continue to focus on taking costs out in North America to make sure that we keep our margin profile, which we promised to you between 11 and 12% going forward as well. Now our RONA is still at a very healthy 15% margin, even though it's down on last year's record performance of 19.6%. Let me move to flexible packaging. We have seen a significant margin improvement in flexible packaging during the full year and also during the quarter. The lower volumes which we see during the quarter and during the full year are offset by better pricing and better mix. So really, really strong focus on getting our mix right in flexible packaging. Lots of activities on the cost side. And you will remember that we put two of our units there under turnaround activities. We talked about India and Turkey, and I'm happy to report that that we have very, very strong positive impact from our turnaround activities in those two units. That enabled us to deliver a very strong margin in the quarter and a very strong cash flow in the quarter. For the full year, it's a similar picture. Lower volumes, but great improvement on the overall product mix, which we are selling. Turnaround going absolutely in the right direction. So as does the cost out projects, which we are running there. That enabled us to come with the best ever performance in flexible packaging of a 9.2% EBIT margin. Also, the absolute number of 115 is an all-time high as RONA is and as the cash delivery is. So we are very pleased to see flexibles going in the right direction. Last but not least, let me jump to our fiber packaging segment. Clearly a very strong profitability performance in the quarter and in the full year for our fiber segments. Net sales just shy of last year in the quarter. But if we look at the overall product which we sell, that is, in fact, increasing comparably by 4% machine sales. is down slightly, but overall comparable growth up 4%, which enabled us to come to an adjusted EBIT of 15.4%. So very, very strong performance and a margin of 15.9%, which is stronger than last year as well. For the full year, we were able to grow comparably at 8% in the fiber business and improving adjusted EBIT in absolute by 16% and growing the margin to 13.3% for the full year. That enabled us to grow our RONA to a very strong 18.4% in the fiber business. You will have noted that we spent more money on the fiber side than last year. And we did this because we see lots of opportunities to continue our growth story in the fiber packaging segment. So with our approach on capital discipline, putting money behind very profitable projects, we are aligned. So we are super happy to continue to invest. Let us move on to the financial review. And Thomas, if you could take over from here, please.

Thank you, Ralph. I will take over now. Yes. And if I look at the big story of the year, which is really the currency movements, highlighting the fact, again, that it's a translational impact for us as a company. But given the big exposure to the US dollar, obviously, the movements have been very significant. If I take the quarter alone, roughly 47% of the impact on the full year top line came in the quarter alone. And Ralph already alluded to the fact that Q4 2024, we still had a US dollar at 104. And if you look at the average rate for the full year, it was at 108. Average rate for 2025 is 113. And As you see from the slide, we had a closing rate of 1.18 on the US dollar at the end of 2025. Today, I think, or yesterday, the currency was at roughly 1.19. Highlighting also the fact that we account for the balance sheet on closing rate, while then the P&L is being translated on average rates. But as you can also see from this slide, basically all other currencies were also trending negatively throughout the year. So explaining that it's not only North America getting the currency, it's also the other segments. But as I said, translational. The transactional we are taking care of by our hedging policies. If I take a bit of a deeper dive into the P&L, I would say that the positive side of the year is our very, very strongly continued management of cost. So with that one, we were offsetting some of the of the negative developments of the top line. Value-add remained strong. On the operations side, we were able to offset a lot of the salary inflation, but not fully. So without the growth, we still have a negative impact out of salary increases, despite having done significant work on that topic as well. You see from this slide also that our finance cost is at 60 million versus 71.4 previous year. This is the outcome of a continued... debt decrease, as well as the benefits from having become investment grade rated and therefore having a more favorable position when it comes to interest rate negotiations. The adjusted income tax at 22.4%, so roughly 22%, quite similar to previous year's level, so maintaining that one. And then obviously as an outcome, our adjusted EPS, as Ralph already said, we are happy to see remain on previous year's level 248, which as he mentioned, is an all-time high. Cash flow is something I'm significantly proud of, We had a very strong EBITDA conversion to cash. You will see that the capital expenditure obviously contributed well. We said already that it doesn't impact our future growth. So we have stayed very capital disciplined when it comes to how we manage that part of the story without compromising the future. You will also see that taxes had a significant positive impact when it comes to this one. This is mostly timing related and also on some treatment of losses. Then we see the net financial items, basically close to previous year's level. And as you see from this slide, we had a negative full-year impact of working capital. However, also here, looking at Q4, we had a good development from Q3, where we were still at a very significantly lower level compared to previous year. So Q4 development, all in all, one can only conclude that the cash flow generation was really strong. And with that one, obviously, we get the benefit of a continued deflation of our net debt. So we are down at roughly 1.2 billion down versus previous year with a net debt to EBITDA of 1.9 billion. So we have come down from the high of 2021 when we were at 3.1x and with a net depth of roughly 1.5 billion. So we have delivered on the promise to, after an acquisition, make sure that we take care of the cash flow generation in a way that maintains the balance sheet on a strong level. When it comes to loan maturities, you can conclude from the previous slide and this one that our liquidity and combined renewal of financing puts us in a very strong position when it comes to managing our future balance sheet when it comes to debt. We did a number of transactions during 2025, and with that one, we landed at an average interest rate of roughly 4% when it comes to gross debt. So good development and a good position when it comes to maturity, good position when it comes to ability to also act on future capital needs with the EMTN program that we launched in 2025. So quite happy with our financial position all in all. And looking then at the balance sheet here again, the currency impact has a significant impact on the asset development. Highlighting here what I didn't mention on the previous one, that our gearing is now at 0.61%. The return on investment is slightly down versus previous year, mainly actually due to the asset levels in Q1. And as we calculate the return on investments on a 12-month rolling, it comes with a lag. You see, however, the return on equity slightly improving versus previous year. So also here a favorable development. As mentioned earlier here today, our board of directors is proposing a continued increase on a year-on-year basis in our dividend. With 1.14, we would have a payout ratio of of 46. You can compare that to the previous year's levels. So remaining just in the middle of our payout ratio guidance. And with a 1.14, we would have increased our dividend for 17 consecutive years, which I believe is the longest for companies listed in Finland. Track record when it comes to delivering towards our ambitions in this market environment, we have unfortunately not been able to meet the expectations when it comes to growth. We have, however, done a very diligent job on the other elements. So profitability for second year in the lower end of the corridor. And return on investments, I would say, despite a slightly lower level versus 2024, moving in the right direction, though still being below. And then our net debt EBITDA really at the low end of the corridor or even slightly below. And then, as I said, continuing to deliver dividend in proportion to our ambitions. Finalizing here with the outlook, the outlook is for 2026 basically the same as for 2025. And also the short-term risks and uncertainties remain from a content point of view unchanged. So with this one, I would hand over for Q&A.

If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Louis Merrick from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.

Morning, Ralph and Thomas. Thank you for taking my questions. Starting just on food service packaging, from a top-line perspective, growth was quite soft during the quarter. I mean, you mentioned the softness in Western markets and specifically the U.K., being the driver of that in the statement. Can you just elaborate on whether you think this was destocking or simply just soft underlying demand? We've just got one follow-up. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Louis. And good morning to you too. Yeah, look, it is mainly a really soft market. Our customers tried with promotion to bring traffic back. Some of them did achieve that. And in fact, with those, we saw good numbers, but most of them did not. And that clearly impacted us, as I mentioned, especially in Western Europe and in the UK. In the other markets, we saw good growth. But we were hoping for more promotions to bring people back into the restaurants, which did only actually occur in a couple of our customer cases. A bit disappointing with how the promotions ended up at the end of the year. But look, they will fight, as we know, and they will continue to fight our customers and we will continue to support them.

Thank you. And just on North America, one of your peers has been quite challenging competitive dynamics right now. Are you seeing any increased competition at the moment in some of your North American end markets?

Yeah, nothing now stronger than what I reported to you before in our quarterly calls, Louis. So we see clearly that with the overall consumer confidence levels going down, volumes not being there, many of our competitors and suppliers also not seeing volumes. We clearly see pressure on pricing, but we saw that during the year, And that obviously, you know, was a decision we had to make on whether we are going to fight for the volumes or just let them go. We decided that the high level of margin, which we have seen in the years, a couple of years before, they were artificially high from a time where it was exactly the opposite direction. So we decided to stay in the market. That's why we did grow volume in North America. But we had to give price for that. That will flow on an... year-over-year perspective into 2026, but we are not seeing more fight now than we have seen during the year 2025. Many thanks.

The next question comes from Robin Santiverta from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning. I have two questions. First of all, if we look at your margin and cash flow in Q4, you had, again, very strong performance, but the comparable sales is still in negative territory. So my question is, first, what is the comparable sales outlook for the flexible packaging and food service business going into H1? And the second question I have is related to to North America, we've seen some of your customers complaining about adverse weather patterns or snow storms in January. Is that something that will impact your business in January? So those two, thanks.

Good morning, Robin. Thank you for the two questions. As you will appreciate, we don't give outlook numbers on volume for any of our businesses. Let me just tell you on especially flexibles, which was core of your questions in 25 and in the quarter, very similar picture. The segment decided to go after profitability rather than any volume was important for us after years of six or last year, 7% EBIT margin to make sure that we bring this up. One of the activities out of three really was a mixed improvement. So a strong focus on on mix, on products, which makes sense for us going into what we call blue loop, more sustainable products where we have capacity built. So that was really important for us from a mix change. A lot of that mix change came with substitution from prior non-sustainable products to now blue loop products at a better overall margin level. So that's one of the activities mentioned. The other one was cost initiative, taking cost out. And the third one was really the turnaround activity. So Overall, Flexibles did focus on that. Look, that focus is not over. You know my words on that. One year doesn't actually give you a trend. So that focus will continue to make sure that we deliver and deliver on what we have now achieved in one year in Flexibles. Second question was about the weather in North America. Look, it's a timely question because, frankly, we did experience very severe weather conditions in North America in January, which absolutely impacted our business. We had to close temporarily five of our sites and two of our distribution centers. So, for days, those were shut. So, of course, that is going to give us an impact. We are... We are assessing the impact currently, but as you will appreciate, it's a one-off impact. The weather is happening fortunately one time, but there will be clearly an impact for our North American business in January due to that. We are now back running in all our sites, Robin.

Thank you, Ralf. That is very clear. Can I just try on Flexibles? and food service, just to get the feel and some color on all the intake, just trying to get to the point Are you seeing any signs of a bit better order intake, a bit better volume outlook?

It's a similar answer. Rather than going into specific guidance of outlook, I don't want to go there. Let me answer as I tried for flexible. So the picture on what we are trying to do with our overall product mix is, which we did in 2025 or started in 2025, we don't see any reason why we would change that. And on food service, we are so much dependent on food service. Middle East, Africa, we did see really good progress with local and regional customers, even more so in Eastern Europe, where we saw really some...

Good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. I have a couple. The first one is on North America.

It was good for us. And a lot of that is because first, the seasons were good for retail. But secondly, there was a shift from which we do. Overall on the tariff situation, if I may say, answer a bit more general. Overall, as we really produce and sell, so we buy, we produce, we sell all in the US, we don't really have so much of an impact. Competitors coming from the Far East who have currently a huge huge drop on tariffs, are absorbing a lot of that currently as they are waiting for the final outcome. Or we see a bit of a shift from, for example, China to Vietnam. So I would say overall, the impact on tariffs during the year for us, not significant.

Thank you. Yeah, I meant more in terms of the benefits from competitors having pressure. But it's clear that you mentioned some of the shifts happening in Q4. Thank you. On the free cash flow, could you help me a little bit on how I should think about it in 2026? I see some negative working capital impact in 25. So what are the building blocks, I guess, to help us think about next year? So CapEx, I guess, will remain moderated. How do you think about working capital?

So focus on both CapEx and working capital was significantly increased during 25 and there is no reason to believe it would not continue. We are, of course, seeing some of our customers putting pressure on us with regards to payment terms. So we are, of course, now having actions in place also to look at inventory and payables to offset or hopefully more than offset that. So we are pretty positive with the overall development during 2025 on how we are managing working capital. Thomas alluded before that we have had some really good progress in Q4 already. So that's very encouraging. And you are spot on. No reason to believe that we would have a different view on CapEx. that allows me maybe to to stress one important point we are not we are not uh saying no to capex which doesn't make sense where we see profitability improvements where we see efficiency improvements where we see growth opportunities we are investing the examples i gave fiverr is a great example where we are growing where we need capacity we are putting it back in so Don't feel like we are just cutting capex for the sake of doing it. We are doing it because that's good management of a disciplined approach.

Thank you. And my final question. So 1.9 times EBITDA now, your capex being moderated, you're focusing on working capital. Free cash flow, I see a strong free cash flow, but then you're below your target of two to three times. So what are the avenues here that you might explore for the next year in terms of spending cash?

Thank you for that question. We have been very clear on our ambition to be in the range of two to three times. And we have also in our profitable growth bucket been very clear around the M&A agenda. So I would say it's quite clear with the organic side, we are more on a continued deleveraging path. So clearly for that sake, we are continuously looking into the M&A field as well. And of course, seeing that the M&A landscape is quite favorable at the moment.

Understood. Thank you.

The next question comes from Cole Hawthorne from Jefferies. Please go ahead.

Hi, Thomas. Thank you for taking my question. The first is just on understanding how your raw materials and costs are developing. Would you mind talking about food service and then North America separately? Because I imagine besides labor inflation, you should be benefiting from lower paperboard and polymer prices. I'm just... like some color and how you're thinking about that into 2026. And then secondly, maybe on the commercial side, following on after the costs is, you know, we have seen promotional activity and how do you make sure that you don't concede price if you are getting, you know, a raw material tailwind? You know, what are you commercially doing to try and minimize that, you know, price give up? Thank you.

Thanks, thanks, Cole. Good morning. So look, overall on the raw material side, I think it's important to remember that other than in fibre, in our three other segments, with most of our customers, we have an automatic pass-through. So you would see an impact of that maybe on the top line, but not really on the bottom line. There's a bit of timing impact here, but there's no real impact. If we see paper board prices going down, you would also see that we have to pass them to our customers. So the impact, again, other than a bit of timing advantage or disadvantage, you wouldn't really see. And maybe the advantage is then taken out with regards to your inventory valuation. So we don't see this as a big impact at all. We have had a few raw material substrates which went the other direction, just giving you an example, aluminium, which is also a substrate which is quite important to us, went the other direction. So we don't see currently any significant move for 2026 from what we have seen and what was negotiated in the last quarter. So on that side, no real impact.

And then the one on promotional activity, customers have done a lot of promotional activity. I know you mentioned it for Western Europe that we hadn't quite seen that benefiting volumes, but Are you seeing any of that in North America and how could that potentially benefit? you and your footprint there?

So both promotions happened in both North America and in Europe. In North America, we saw more of a positive impact for us on the food service side, I have to say. So we participated and did win more of those promotions than in Europe. And you're spot on. We've got to be super disciplined on pricing with these promotions because temptation to say... We win the promotion and we afterwards might also get then the volumes following. That temptation is there. It doesn't always work that way. So for us, with regards to promotions, it's important. We want to participate, but we've got to be disciplined on pricing. Otherwise, it's super, super difficult for us to maintain our take food service, global food service. Really difficult for us to keep our margin profile, which, as you're seeing, we have improved during 25 to 9.3%.

And then finally, just on your retail plates business, you've obviously got the premium China brand, which is well regarded in the U.S., but there has been some capacity additions in kind of the lower price point levels from Georgia Pacific. So I'm just wondering, how has that development been in retail plates? Have you seen any kind of down trading from consumers or any disruption in that market, considering it's a higher margin business for you?

So we have we have seen that for us, because, as you're rightly saying, the premium China wasn't wasn't really impacted by the Georgia Pacific slash Dixie investments, which we have seen. They are they are more competing with the imports. So they would be more competing with what I mentioned before, imports and or the imports. transformation from extended polystyrene towards paper. So that's more where, you know, you would see an impact going from left to right for Georgia Pacific volume, we assume. For China on the other side, don't really have that. So China more premium. So who wants to buy China consumer will go with China. So we didn't see that impact there.

Thank you. I'll hand it over and get back, Nicky. Thanks, Colt.

The next question comes from Pasi Vaisanen from Nordia. Please go ahead.

Thanks. This is Pasi from Nordia. To start with the market, so could it be even a realistic scenario that your organic volume growth could be a positive in the second quarter of this year, mainly due to the kind of investments you have made and also due to easier comps coming from the last year? So the question is, is the underlying market stable or still declining?

Thanks. Thanks, Pasi. So look, we have invested in the past, but we have also invested this year. Even if CAFEX is lower, we still have invested and we have invested for a reason. We have invested because we believe that we can generate growth with those investments. We were with our operational issues in In North America, we were hoping to be at a better point with some of the investments which we did in prior years. So no reason to believe that we wouldn't see positive impact from that going forward. And then, of course, I guess not just us, but we are all hoping... that the huge headwinds which we are seeing and the consumer confidence low consumer confidence levels are starting to turn so of course that would give us a tailwind and you're of course right with lower comp in the second half that would help i guess the overall market and and us so we are we are positive that the investments which we did clearly in 25 And the progress we are making on investments made in prior years will start showing us positive impacts going forward.

Yeah, excellent. I hear you. And secondly, when looking at the crude oil price, that has actually came down roughly two years in line. So is the plastic prices actually the reason for an improvement you have seen in flexible segment?

Yeah, Pasi, I think the question is very similar to what we got before. We would see with the impact on oil, we would see, of course, that some of the resins will be impacted and would be impacted to go down a bit lower. But in flexible specifically, most of our contracts actually have an automatic pass-through. So whatever we would see here, now maybe on a slightly positive side, in another year slightly on the negative side, is only an impact of a very short period because then it's passed through. So you might see it in value, but you don't see it in margin, even on value-add. So I think on that side, we've got to be clear that, again, fiber is the exception here, where we don't have pass-through automatic clauses. But for the others, impact of raw material, timing, yes, but overall, no. I would say they're clearly not the reason why we have had flexible packaging advantages in 2025 versus the prior year.

Okay, I see. And maybe lastly, so have you seen any progress in India or are you going to make a kind of decision regarding your presence in India during this year? So is it going on track according to plans?

Yeah, so it is in fact outperforming what we were hoping to achieve. So we are super proud with our two turnarounds. Our colleagues from India, I think, have announced their results a couple of days back. So I would encourage you to have a look at that. So India specifically, you can see. We are seeing significant improvements in our overall Indian performance. So very happy with the turnaround activities in India and Turkey, just to add, even if you didn't ask about Turkey and Turkey.

Excellent, excellent. That was all from my side. Thanks.

The next question comes from Paul of Middle from Barclays. Please go ahead.

Hi, good morning. So firstly, can you talk a bit more about your food service operations? Your comparable sales were down 7% and you have highlighted weakness in Western Europe and UK. It seems like you're losing market share because I don't think the underlying demand is down 7%. So any comments on that would be very helpful.

Thanks, Padev. As I mentioned, Western Europe and UK down and those are our largest markets. So the impact of them is greater and we can't offset with the growth which we have had in Middle East, Africa and Eastern Europe that declined. Look, it depends on who your customers are. So with our largest customers, we in fact did grow. But then with a number of our not as large customers in Western Europe and the UK, unfortunately, their promotion activities did actually not play out as good as they wanted. And or we, because we wanted to be disciplined, we didn't participate in the promotions for the right reasons that we need to maintain our margin level. Once it's down, it's super difficult to bring it up again. So some of those decisions were our decisions. Some of those decisions were our customers' decisions. But if you look at the bigger picture market share perspective, I don't see that. I don't see us losing over maybe in a quarter, but over a medium to longer term, I don't see us losing market share with our customer base. So don't look at the overall food service market, but really look at what we are doing, our product ranges and our customer base.

Sure. And secondly, if you could talk a bit more about your market conditions across segments so far in the quarter, and I appreciate your comments around the winter storms in US, but if you could quantify whether it is likely a 10 million impact or a 20 million impact, any sort of quantification would be very helpful.

Yeah, so getting back to what I think it was Robin asking that question about the weather in North America, we are still evaluating, but we know it will hurt our January result in North America. And that's a one-off. We understand that. Clearly, in some of our markets, cold weather is not helpful. Of course, if you come to summer times, that's where we have, of course, more interest in beverage, as an example, than in winter times. So cold winters in general aren't super helpful. But we are in early February now. So giving you an idea how the quarter is looking would first be wrong because we don't give outlooks. And secondly, I just really don't have any facts to support anything stronger here. And you know that, sorry, just to just allude to, you know, you will appreciate that Q4 proved to be a very, very strong quarter for us. So we are, of course, really happy with the outcome of Q4 overall.

Sure. And if I can just ask one follow up on the capital allocation. So you did say you could look at some bolt on M&A. But given your net debt EBITDA at 1.9x, is share repurchases on the table or that is not a discussion point at the moment?

Yeah, so we are, I think Thomas made the point, of course, and we started the journey last year where we wanted to drive profitable growth with all levers. We are actively looking at bolt-on opportunities for us. We did one last year. Why one and not two, three or four? Because we've got to be super disciplined. We are only going to do them for bolt-on if they are accretive in year one. That's clearly what we are striving to get to. And we continue to work. We have a very healthy pipeline and we are actively looking at that. But we are only going to execute if it is the right thing from a returns perspective for us. And of course, the discussion on how do we return capital to shareholder holders is one which the board is always entertaining. And the one thing the board is now proposing to the AGM is, is another dividend increase. As Thomas said, it's the 17th year in a row, if approved by the AGM, that we are increasing dividends. That doesn't mean that the board is not discussing and evaluating other opportunities to return capital to shareholders.

Okay, thank you.

The next question comes from Cole Hawthorne from Jefferies. Please go ahead.

Thanks for taking the follow-up. I'd just like to follow up on the commentary around the M&A landscape is attractive. How do you think about M&A when you think about the Hutamaki business? Because you have over time rationalized some capacity where you had too much supply. So I'm just wondering what segments are attractive to you and how do you think about M&A to make sure that M&A is accretive and You know, you don't buy any kind of excess or older technology for the business. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Cole. Of course, super relevant question because we have, and you know that, we have free capacity in a number of our segments and factories. So we would not and never entertain a discussion to add to free capacity, idle capacity, even more idle capacity. So we wouldn't do that. Sure. When we look at M&A, other than the strategic fit, other than the fit of the products, the substrates and the geography, we are, of course, looking on what do we have already on the ground? What could we do by investing organically? So that's always something which we are analyzing before we come up with the decision. So take the one we did last year as an example. That was in fiber egg packaging in Florida. So it was interesting because in Florida, in that state, we didn't have any egg fiber production. But it was something which was already, you know, very profitable and fast growing in that in that region. So even though we had free capacity in Hammond, we couldn't deliver from Hammond into Florida. So it made absolutely sense for us to take that on. And again, it proved to be the right step. So summarizing Cole, we are, of course, analyzing what capacity do we have? Could we invest organically? Or does it make sense for us to add with an acquisition capacity in certain areas?

And then maybe just following up on that, it's clear to say that, you know, it's a It's a buy versus build market when you look at kind of upstream in the paper and packaging space, but in your landscape on the downstream converting, I imagine the competition is still a little bit more competitive for those converting assets. Is it a buyer's market out there, or are people still looking for decent prices for their assets?

No, it's currently, I would say it's a biased market currently. Look, there is, of course, now since a couple of years or certainly during the whole of 25, a very, very low volume market. It's clear that whether it's destocking, whether it's consumer confidence, but it's a market which is not growing and not just for us, but for everybody. So, Of course, there are competitors out there which are struggling. Our margin is super healthy. Our EPS is at an all-time high. Our cash flows are very healthy. So, of course, we are in a good position here. But we will continue to be disciplined. Let me repeat this because it's an important message internally and externally. Only because it's a buyer's market and there might be opportunities, if they don't come with the right return profile, We are going to pass on them.

Very clear. Thank you.

All right. That was all for the questions for today. As always, if you have any follow-up questions, please feel free to reach out to us here at the IR team. And with that, we'd like to wish you a great day and thank you for attending.