Imcd Group Nv U/Adr

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for holding, and welcome to the full year 2020 analyst call of IMCD. At this moment, all participants are in listen-only mode, and later we will conduct a question-and-answer session. I would like to hand over the call to Mr. Piet van der Slikker. Go ahead, please, sir.

Yes, thank you very much. Hello, everybody, again. I, as usual, sit in here with Hans-Corey Malms. who will later take you through the numbers, and we will both answer the questions on the full year 2020 results. Now, as you all know, it's now almost a year after many countries went into first lockdown, and I think we are now in the second or third here in Holland, and the world has changed dramatically. However, we stayed open, IMCD stayed open for business, And I'm very happy to say that our strong and resilient business model helped us through this year. Actually, we can present very good results, achieving again growth in all important KPIs. go in more detail, but you have seen in our press release that our EBITDA increased with 13% versus 2019, and even with 16% on a constant currency base. Free cash flow grew with 27% to 282 million, I think that's a record, and cash earnings per share with 13%. Many regions and countries showed strong growth, while some who were affected by severe lockdowns had a more difficult year. Also during this year where we could not travel, we were able to acquire several attractive businesses. In Israel, China and India we made important acquisitions which fit into our strategy to globalize our pharma business. In Mexico, We increased our presence by acquiring two companies who will be both integrated into IMCD Mexico and we expect a lot of that in the future. And in Brazil we strengthened our presence in the food industry. We are very optimistic about the contribution of all these companies to our overall growth and strategy. I need to say that all this has been possible because of our fantastic people, many of whom work from home. I would also like to mention those who helped us in logistics, in our warehouses and kept our business going. Our IT and digital infrastructure also played a key role and we have been able to further optimize our capabilities in this field. Despite uncertainties in the outside world, we remain quite positive about our ability to grow, also this year. Our business model proved to be strong, and we will benefit once economies turn to normal again. And with this, I would like to hand over to Hans to take you through the numbers of 2020. Hans? Thank you, Peter. Thank you. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Earlier today we published our full year results in the form of a short press release and we further published our annual report, a legible document with information about various aspects of IMCD's business model, including a lot of details about our financial performance. In this call I will limit myself to a summary of the 2020 members, but I would like to start on page 10 of the presentation. As you can see on this page, Forex adjusted revenue increased 6% and gross profit increased with 11%. The increase in gross profit was a combination of 6% acquisition-related growth and 5% organic. The acquisition growth is the balance of the four-year impact of acquisitions done in 2019 and more recent acquisitions done in 2020. For an overview of the 2020 acquisitions, I would like to refer to page 8 of this presentation. Growth profit in percentage of revenue increased with 1% point from 22.3% in 2019 to 23.3% in 2020. And this increase is the result of gross margin improvement initiatives, the usual changes in local market circumstances, currency fluctuations and newly acquired businesses. All reasons contributed to the margin growth and improved cross-margin percentage. For your convenience, we included a line with an operating EBITDA comparison. However, for IMCD's asset-light business model, combined with the impact of IFRS 16, the EBITDA development shown in the next line seems to be more relevant to our opinion. Operating EBITDA increased 16% on a constant currency basis to 254 million. This increase was a combination of healthy organic growth and a first-time inclusion of acquisitions. The operating EBITDA in percentage of revenue increased by 0.7% from 8.4% in 2019 to 9.1% in 2020. The conversion margin, calculated as operating EBITDA in percentage of gross profit, increased from 37.5% last year to 39.2% in 2020. The improvement in conversion margin is amongst others the result of improved growth margins in combination with lower operational expenses. On the next slide, stage 11, you will find a few key figures from the P&L for operating segment. Growth profit of EMEA in the first column increased 5%, a combination of 1% organic growth and Acquisition growth as a result of the acquisitions of DCS in 2019 and Zicroni and Cocco Fiber in 2020. 2020 growth profit margin percentage increased with 0.7 to 25.4%. Operating EBITDA in EMEA increased 6% whereby the EBITDA margin increased from 9.6 in 2019 to 9.9% in 2020. Cross-margin in the Americas increased 11%, which is a combination of 10% organic growth and 1% as a result of the first-time inclusion of acquired companies. Margin growth combined with disciplined cost control resulted in a further improvement of the EBITDA and conversion margin with respectively 1.2 and 1.9% points. Then Asia-Pacific, who had another good year, whereby they realized 36% growth profit growth. And this was a combination of 11% organic and 25% as a result of acquisitions like Marwan, Daveling and Cignet. The growth profit margin increased from 20.5% last year to 21.1% in 2020. Operating EBITDA increased 53% on a constant currency basis, which was a combination of healthy organic growth and acquisition zone. EBITDA margin increased to 10.5% and conversion margin further improved to close to 50%. In the last column, you will find in the holding companies all non-operating companies, including the head office in Rotterdam and regional support offices in Singapore and New Jersey in the US. The absolute amount of holding cost increased from 15 to 17 million, and holding cost as percentage of revenue remained stable at 0.6%. On the next page you will find a summary of the P&L lines from EBIT to the net result for the period, some general remarks about the sheet. The development of net finance cost and income tax expenses are summarized on the next two slides, but before we go there, Amortization of intangible assets and related tax credits are both MON cast cost items related to the amortization of supplier relations, distribution rights and other intangibles. The increase is mainly the result of acquisitions done. Then, MON recurring income and expenses of about 5 million in both years includes cost of M&A activities and costs related to one-off adjustments of the organization mainly as a result of post-acquisition integration processes. On the next slide, slide 13, a breakdown of the 2020 finance costs, adding up to 26 million, which is about a million lower than previous year. This decreases, as you could see, a combination of 2.8 million lower interest costs related to our financing structure. Further positive changes in the first considerations of 2 million are reported on this line, and we experienced unfavorable currency exchange results, adding 7.5 million to the 2020 finance cost. On page 14, a summary of our income tax expenses. The reported increase of our regular income tax expense is 5 million, which is an increase of 12%, more or less in line with our reported EBITDA growth. 2020 tax cash out was 46 million, compared to 44 million in 2019. I would like to refer to our annual report for further details on tax and tax calculation. On the next page, the calculation of cash earnings per share and our dividend proposal. As you can see on this slide, we report 3 euro and 22 cents cash earnings per share in 2020, which is 37 cents or 13% increase compared to 2019. At the AGM in June, we will propose a dividend of €1.02 in cash per share, which means an increase of 13% compared to last year. This dividend proposal leads to a payout ratio of 34%, an increase of 2% points compared to last year. Then on page 16, a summary of IMCD's balance sheet. Property, plant and equipment slightly decreased and is as a result of the asset-like business model still relatively low compared to the size of our business. Right-of-use assets is a result of the application of IFRS 16, and this 68 million reflects capitalized operational leases. Intangible assets and related deferred tax liabilities are mainly a result of acquisitions made. Then there is a growing equity position of close to 1.3 billion, covering 63% of capital employed. The increase in 2020 is a combination of a share capital increase, the addition of net profits, minus a dividend payment in cash in July last year of 47 million. In September last year, IMCD successfully raised 400 million in share capital by issuing 4.4 million new shares. And the net proceeds of this new capital have been used to finance the acquisition of 70% of SIGNET and for general corporate purposes. Through other balance sheet lines, working capital and net debt are summarized on the next two pages. On page 17 you will find a summary of the absolute amounts of the various working capital components and these absolute amounts translated in days of revenue. As you can see, the absolute amounts the absolute working capital amount increased 7 million and this increase is a combination of 74 million additional working capital related to 2020 acquisitions and a minus 31 million as a result of exchange rate differences. Further, we report an operational decrease in 2020 of 35 million in capital. Working capital days based on year-end balance sheet positions, were end of 2020 slightly lower than end of 2019. On page 18, a summary of our net debt position. At the end of 2020, we report $739 million of net debt, which means an increase of $4 million compared to year-end 2019. Apart from the usual bond loans, Hulstein and bank loans, net debt includes $81 million of operational lease liabilities as a result of the application of IFRS 16. Further, under net debt, we report about 194 million of deferred considerations. Most of these deferred considerations relate to the remaining 30% of sickness that we will buy in 2024. On this same page, an overview of the maturity profile of our debt structure as per December 2020. Compared to a similar overview in last year, you may notice the increase in contingent consideration and the change in our revolving credit facility. We were able to increase the borrowing capacity on this revolver facility in March last year from 400 to 500 million and extended the maturity from March 24 to March 25 combined with better terms. Reported leverage at the end of 2020 was 2.3 times EBITDA, and the leverage ratio calculated based on definitions used in the loan documentation was 1.6 times EBITDA, which was well below the required maximum as set in the loan documentation. I would like to finish the financial summary with the cash flow overview on page 19. As you can see, the absolute amount of free cash flow improved from 60 million to 282 million, as mentioned before by Pete, whereby the cash conversion ratio increased to 109%. This increase in conversion ratio is the result of higher operating EBITDA combined with relatively low capex and a negative working capital investment. And on the last slide of this presentation, you will find the outlook in which we can indicate that IMCD sees interesting opportunities to increase its global footprint and expand its portfolio both organically and by acquisitions in 2021. So far my summary of the 2020 figures and Peter and myself are happy to answer your questions.

Thank you sir. Ladies and gentlemen we will start the question and answer session now and to be registered for the question and answer queue You may press star 1 at any time. So that's star 1 for your question. Go ahead, please. And the first question is from Mr. Matthew Yates, Bank of America. Go ahead, please, Matt.

Hey, good morning, everyone. Thanks for taking the question. I wanted to ask about your outlook statement and the reference to interesting opportunities, both organic and externally. I guess from memory perspective, following you guys for a while, is that the same statement you've generally made at this time of year? Or is there anything about the opportunity set you're looking at at the moment that's particularly stronger or weaker than you thought in the past? Maybe it's a somewhat related question. The Q4 results, obviously very distorted from the catch-up effect from shutdowns earlier in the year, and I guess widespread restocking. But you mentioned you did 10% organic profit growth in the US last year. Any sense of the traction you're getting as we annualize now a year of your platform launch? I would imagine that profit growth is stronger than the end markets or your competition would have realized.

Okay, Matthew. On the outlook, as far as I know, I think it's the same. wording as we use and we have discussed this from the start of our listing we don't give bold outlook statements I mean we have to emphasize the strength of our business model our track record, our ability to grow even under difficult circumstances and that's as far as we go and I think in the course of the year we become slightly more specific but we don't see any quite frankly any benefits in forward looking statements also let's face it because of the limited visibility in the future But nevertheless, I've indicated also in my contribution that we look positively to the world. On your second question, I'm not totally sure if I got it. You mentioned that in the fourth quarter, the element of restocking, I think these elements are always very difficult for us to gauge, but I think there could be truth in that, so we have a particular scroll. fourth quarter we have to see how that evolves in this year but until now I don't have indications that let's say that that trend is reversed so to say Can I follow up then on the opportunities that you said that

standard language that you use. Do you think at the moment that opportunity set is bigger than it's been generally in the past, i.e. the crisis is creating opportunities you can take advantage of, or is it just normal course of business?

No, I would say normal cost of business. It is of course the case that as we become more global and more stronger in certain regions that we get opportunities to add product lines in those regions. So we have definitely positive traction with new product lines and suppliers. So in that sense, we remain optimistic about opportunities that we get. Our organization in North America, countries like Brazil where we have a very strong setup, or Canada. So we have a lot of opportunities, I would say, in many regions. Asia, as I mentioned. The new opportunities we get through our acquisitions. I mean, as you know, the synergies that we get from acquisitions are very often not so much direct cost synergies, but very often synergies, top line synergies, supplier synergies. So we're really positive about the possibilities that that gives us going forward.

Thanks, Doug.

The next question is from Mr. Muthu Gundogan. Adrian Amro, go ahead, please.

Yes, good morning, everyone. A few questions. The first two on Asia-Pacific. So the first question is, your organic growth profit growth was 18% in Q4 versus 10% in Q3. Can you talk about the phasing throughout the quarter? and in which countries' product categories you saw this acceleration of growth. The second question is also in Asia-Pacific. So, if my numbers don't fool me, I think your OPEX declined 25% year-on-year organically. Is that correct? And if so, can you tell us why that was? And then, thirdly, on inventories, I'm a bit surprised to see lower inventories both year-on-year and sequentially. especially considering the acquisition of StigNet and the refocusing we're seeing in the world. Can you tell us why that is?

Yeah, so maybe I take the first question and then Hans will go on with the other ones. I think on Asia-Pacific, I think overall we saw very good growth, both in Australia and New Zealand. although a country that was subjected to lockdowns, as in the Asian countries, China particularly. I think that if you look at categories, as you know, we are more, let's say, skewed to life sciences in Asia-Pacific. Pharma is strong, food is strong, and we consume in this area. So I would say in most of the countries we are active, we saw this trend, and that's very positive. And of course, pharma consumers Moodloo, I missed you a bit on your calculation of the OPEX or own cost side. I think if you compare the own cost structure this year versus last year, is that on the one hand we slightly increased the number of people, adding additional cost to the structure. At the same time, we save quite some costs on course lines like travel, exhibitions, PR, and these type of things. And as a balance, I'm not sure if you were referring to Asia-Pacific specifically, but I don't see a decrease of 25% organically in Asia-Pacific.

Yeah, let me take that and maybe get back to you on that one.

No. Looking at stop levels... I think during the COVID crisis, we made a big effort in optimizing and rationalizing internally about stock levels that we have and tried to become more efficient. So that helped us in certain areas to bring stock levels down for quite an amount. At the same time, we benefited from exchange rate differences. I indicated more than 30 million of exchange rate gains. And what you also could see on my working capital days is that on the debtor side, we did pretty okay given the market circumstances. The combination of that resulted in the working capital positions as we reported year-end.

Right. Thank you very much.

The next question is from Mr. Kirijnmilder, ING. Go ahead, please, sir.

Yeah, good morning, everyone. Can you hear me? Out and clear. Perfect, perfect.

Yeah, a couple of questions. My first question is about the sectors in, let me say, the more industrial parts. Did you see the recovery of the automotive taking place in the latter part of, let me say, 2020? That's my first question. And then my second question is, you're also doing a lot of excipients and all things in the pharmaceutical industry. Is there anything to say about excipients you are delivering for big pharmas who are involved in this whole vaccinations? Is there anything you can say about that?

Okay. On the first question, Quirijn, I think, as you know, let's say the automotive, because that was a question on the industrial sector, is of course a very important sector in many countries and has also an effect on our business because of the advanced materials sector that we have, but also the clothing sector. That has been affected of course over the years, but we saw indeed both sectors strengthening in the latter part of the year. Of course we are a bit farther away from the direct automotive sales in the chain, but we saw positive traction in the latter part of the year. And I guess that will be continued going forward. On the pharma, I can, I mean, we would have reported, I guess, if we would have a big boost from vaccine production, but we are not, as far as I know, not in any, let's say, vaccine production involved with our products.

Okay, my final question is about Brexit. Was there any impact in the fourth quarter because of the Brexit?

I think you could say that as many other companies also outside of our sector have reported that there was stock building in the UK going on so that should have also positive effects on our results but Generally so, so we saw that, but it's not so material that that has, that the material affected our total results.

Thank you.

The next question is from Mr. Rajesh Kumar, HSBC. Go ahead, please.

Hi, good morning. Excuse me if I may. When you look at 2020 performance, it obviously has been very credible in terms of growth. Are there any pockets of growth that were either directly or indirectly driven by the pandemic-related products? I know a question about vaccines has been asked earlier, but anything in your mind that comes which potentially you need to reflect when you are costing our estimates at a difficult comp and not project it on an ongoing basis. The second question is on the supplier synergies. Obviously, you now have a much larger global footprint. You've always said that you are able to One of your growth levers is to cross-sell products between different suppliers. How has the nature of the discussion with the suppliers changed as your footprint grows on a geographic basis, but also due to the pandemic?

Okay Rajesh, the first question, progress of growth, I think we reported also during 2020 that our pharma business has been strong. I guess in particular in the first period of the year, maybe the first six, seven months. So I guess that there has been some anticipation with pharma companies to ensure that they have sufficient material. Again, it's very, very difficult for us to estimate the volumes and the amounts, but I think that it's fair to say that business was positively affected, whereas other businesses, of course, were negatively affected. But that is also, I would say, testimony to our model that we have, that also dampen downturns or even give us a boost in an upturn. So it's something that we have said all along for many, many years about, let's say, the stability of our business and the resilience of our business and I think 2020 is absolutely an evidence of that. But if you look at the different sectors, to summarize your questions, I think Pharma had a good year. On supplier synergies, I think what suppliers are looking at is when they outsource is a trustworthy partner. with credible on the ground capabilities and I think that what we try to do when we enter new regions and markets is to have credible organizations and of course people ask us sometimes yeah you are an acquisition machine I mean it has the objective is of course to have a credible local organization and then with the IMCD overall capabilities to organically grow locally. And I think in our conversations with suppliers, let's say the context that we have with our suppliers, the trust that is between us allows us to then expand with suppliers over different parts of the world. And I think that is, has that changed because of COVID? I don't think necessarily it has changed a lot. I think the conversations are more or less in the same way. I would maybe only say the capabilities of us to reach out to customers, for example also digitally, We have invested a lot in that. I mean, not so much only for them to place orders, because that's not the key of it, but more to have contact with them, to have webinars, to have virtual exhibitions where we show that we can invite customers as physical exhibitions are not possible anymore. Helps us, of course, to have contact with customers, and that itself is of course also important when you make decisions on outsourcing. So I think the scale that we have here, the IT infrastructure, the digital infrastructure helps us also in this difficult COVID time. I hope this gives you a bit of a flavour of what we do.

It does, thank you very much. That really gives us something to go by. Just a On the other group of suppliers, you know, you outsource quite a lot of your freight and warehouse work. Have you had a difference in discussions with them? Because obviously freight inflation is coming through, so with your scale, do you see any positive discussion in certain environments?

No, I think what we experience, but I think everybody else as well, is on the logistics side. So the transport in particular is that we see shortages here and there, increasing prices, and that is something that we have to pass on to the market.

How quickly is it to pass it on?

Very quickly. And I think that's also one of the benefits of having our systems. We can do that, I would say one-on-one, but almost immediately. Got it. And I think the margin, let's say the margin shows that also, you know, we don't see a negative effect of that on the margin.

Thank you very much.

The next question is from Mr. Daniel Houghton.

Go ahead, please. Good morning, everyone. I'm just one less than me, please. It's around your growth topic, organic growth. I was just wondering If you could say something around what's driving that. Is it new clients who've seen increased outsourcing penetration or was it driven mainly from the existing client base?

Well, maybe this is not a very satisfactory answer, but it's a little bit of everything. I think very important, of course, for us always is to benefit from increased outsourcing or to cross. crystallize suppliers into new regions. It remains of course extremely important also for us to grow the business on a customer level. That is of course the whole point for us to increase our penetration on the customer side. What I forgot to mention is also that we do now quite a lot of digital marketing campaigns to reach out to customers. So I would say, again, we have to turn many screws, so to say, suppliers, customers, new product lines, benefit from outsourcing. These are the levers that we use for organic growth. Cool. Thanks very much.

The next question is from Mr. Chetan Udeshi. JP Morgan, go ahead, please.

Hi, thanks. I just had a question on strategy of IMCD in terms of building position in China because usually China is considered to be more competitive country for the chemical industry. So can you maybe help us understand what is the long-term thought process on how much is IMCD willing to penetrate the Chinese market, both organically or inorganically, and how do you see the competitive landscape impacting that decision?

Yes, that's an important question, of course. As you all know, China is a huge market. It's also, let's say, huge regionally, different regions, very competitive. But the strategy that we choose is that we will really go into the more high-end product ranges. At the moment, we're very strong, again, in the pharmaceutical excipients, which is... with our suppliers that come from Western countries, which I would say do not on the higher end compete with local production. We also are in very specialty applications for advanced materials, plastics. So we will grow in China, but select us. And we will really look at the high end of the market. And we invest in that. We are very successful so far. But we won't compete with, let's say, the general products or the me-to's. We try to stay on the upper levels of, let's say, the more complicated products. And that's so far extremely successful because we grow and we're very profitable so far. So I think that we are there for the long run. We are patient. Also, we don't take, you know, very risky steps. And I think so far it has paid off very well for us.

Understood. And maybe a couple of other follow-ups. I don't know if you, earlier in the call, did you quantify... or can you quantify the contribution from Stignet for the time you consolidated it in Q4? And the second question was, given this cold wave in the U.S., and even before that, there was this general inflationary environment in the transport and shipping sector, network are you seeing that and is that something that you can pass it on quickly to your customers in terms of incidental cost?

On your first question I think we have in our results two months of sickness results so you have to calculate yourself more or less what that what that has contributed. The other thing I can say is that it performs in accordance with our expectations. On the logistics in the US, yet again, also there we see increased rates, I think already for a longer time, also pre-COVID, and we are able to pass that on quickly to the market. So, on that side, I'm very positive. Customers understand that, are faced with that themselves if they do direct research. So, that normally is not a problem for us.

Understood. Thank you.

The next question is from Mr. Matteo Cataldi, exam DRC Paribas. Go ahead, please.

Hello. Thank you very much for taking my question. I have two, please. First of all, I just wanted to expand on the presentation. I just wanted to check. You mentioned about transport, but how should we think about the prices of these products? Would you be able to use them as a benefit for your bottom line? And the second one is whether you could quantify the difference between your own fleet and third-party distribution within NCD. Thank you very much.

I'm not totally sure if I got the first question, have you? No, it's the same issue, but it had to do with the sound. The sound was not good, so... Can you hear me better now? Yes.

Okay, perfect. I just wanted to check, in an inflationary environment, how shall we think about your bottom line, apart from transportation, about raw materials? Would you be able to benefit from fluctuation in raw material prices?

Ah, okay, yeah. Got it. As a general remark and as general experience, increasing prices are normally good for us. As long as, of course, we also ensure that we are responsible with stock buildings. but normally I would say rising prices are okay for us. The second question was on logistics. I think... And then the difference between what we do ourselves and what we see in the market. Was that the question, Matteo?

Yes, whether you could provide a percentage of how much you don't feed third parties.

We don't have a fleet. We have maybe one or two... Somewhere in Morocco or Indonesia. I'm not totally sure about that, but we really use third party. Third party, so there's no difference here. Perfect. Thank you very much.

The next question is from Mr. Mutlu Gundogan, ABN AMRO. Go ahead, please.

Hi, yes. A follow-up question, if I may. I think probably for Hans. Can you tell us what the temporary cost savings were last year? Have, for example, relating to travel or advertising and to what extent you would expect that to reverse in 2021. And then maybe one for Piet as well. I mean, when I read your remark about, you know, on the first page of the press release, it sounded, but correct me if I'm wrong, it sounded as if you were a bit more optimistic than usual. You talk about very positive about ITV's opportunities. I mean, how should we think about 2021 given that 2020 was so strong? Do you think you can, you know, hold on to this pace or would you expect a bit of a normalization? Thanks.

Last question maybe before we want to think about the cost. I have to be careful, of course, with respect to the outlook. But I would like to stick to the very positive close. I think our business generally, again, and I repeat it already for a long time, is a strong business in diversified in regions, in markets, and I think when the economy is opening up again, and let's see when that takes place, because it's not there yet, we will see in various segments, I would say, growth again, and good growth, where there's now not a lot of growth, and also in certain countries. So in that sense, Maybe it's also a little bit a view on the post-COVID world, but I'm really optimistic about that. And then your question, Mutlu, about the cost savings and what is temporary and what is structural. If you look back at last year, I think the first quarter was a normal quarter with normal travel and normal behavior. And then we had three more quiet quarters. At the moment I think it's fair to say that where we are at the moment with respect to travel and exhibitions is similar with what we saw in the last quarters of last year. In our annual report there is quite a detailed breakdown of the other operating expenses in which you can see that for instance on travel compared to 2019 we had a cost saving of about 12 million. on other operating car expenses of about 1.5 to 2 million. So part of these savings will for sure be temporary. At the moment that the world opens up again and people can travel again, then we will spend more money on these lines than what we did this year. But I also think that some of the savings will be more structural because during this crisis we learned that we can do much more digital than what we did in the past. And a lot of travel will be replaced by just talking to a screen. But the exact percentage is there, I think we will find out in the future. But there will be savings on those lines also in the future. I'm not sure, Mutlu, if I answered your question this way.

No, you did, definitely. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, if there are any additional questions, please press star one. And there's another question from Mr. Kirai Miller, ING. Go ahead, please.

Yeah. The question is about the suppliers. We have discussed it, I think, in the spring last year that you saw that there was an inclination by the suppliers for further outsourcing And that trend was going on. Can you maybe give me an idea about, let me say, post-COVID and pre-COVID, that there is a difference there of the behaviour of the chemical producers?

No, I think I mentioned it earlier. I don't see a significant difference between pre- and post-COVID or at COVID in terms of outsourcing. And it's also, of course, not so easy to to pinpoint that. We are in discussions constantly with suppliers for new projects or to expand corporations elsewhere, but I don't think that is now particularly triggered by COVID.

Okay. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, if there are any additional questions, please press star one. There are no further questions at the moment.

Okay. Then we stop. And then I wish everybody the sun is shining in Rotterdam. and I hope in your place as well. So I wish you a great weekend already. Thank you very much.