ING Bank Slaski

morning. A very warm welcome to our conference in the course of which we are going to be summarizing 2023 and the fourth quarter. Birolon Bartkiewicz, the CEO of ING Bank Śląski, Bożena Graczek, our Vice President Responsible for Finances, CFO, Rafał Benetzky, the Director of the Macroeconomical Analysis, and I am joined by Iza Rokicka, responsible for Investor Relations, Market Analysis and ESG. Bruno, excuse me, please take the floor. Good morning. A very warm welcome to you, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this marvelous 2024. May it bring more success to all of us than 2023. Why am I saying that? A word of introduction. 2023 was a year that obviously triggers a number of emotions Nonetheless, as I see it, that was a year where we actually had a relatively low market activity in general in the economy. That is a relative thing. Rafał is going to comment on it in his presentation, in his part of the meeting. It was a very specific year. Why? Because it is yet another year of relatively weak loan activity driven by demand. This is something that is worth emphasizing. A low propensity for crediting and considerable turbulence of aggregate market flows. All of that has translated into considerable turbulence to balance sheet statistics, which in itself generated new challenges and needs for adjustment. It was also a year where we had yet another phenomenon of considerable risk factor, that is legal and regulatory instability with regard to the economy as such, but also the banking sector. In all probability, banks have been affected to the greatest extent with such schemas. I believe that this was a year when a lot happened in terms of regulation, but mainly in the form of announcements and deliberations and negotiations, something that in no way supported the situation of the banks or preparations of what the Polish economy needs. That is a pull forward to illustrate the overall situation in large aggregates. We have been repeating what we had been going through overall. The deposits submitted with the banking sector totaled 575 billion zlotys. I'm going to let that sink in, 575 billion, in comparison with the individual deposits, 35 billion and the businesses, 66 billion. Now, with regard to the four-year accrual, should we deduct from that the deposits involved with the Social Security Authority and local governments and other non-banking institutions? That accrual totals 13 billion. The accrual of deposits was colossal. accrual of credits or loans has been kept to the bare minimum, which obviously has its consequences. A change to the overall profile of banking sector balance sheets and long-to-depot ratios dropping. The banks have been truly dependent on derivatives and other financial instruments used to generate funds on National Bank of Poland accounts. As a result, we are ending up with something that I'm truly bothered by, a relatively low ratio of credit to GDP, dropped by 20 percentage points. At the end of last year, it was approximately the drop, actually, in total 33%. That is the amount of credits to the non-financial sector to GDP. And that obviously is worrisome, and it translates into the overall situation of the bank and the necessity of the bank making adaptations or adjustments. Obviously, all these changes are of great importance. Now, the deposits with our bank year to year have grown by 13 billion, nearly 13 billion. Thank God, the stock exchange and investment fund market was very attractive. We recorded nearly 4 billion in accrual, including different values. Credits and loans grew by just under 2 billion zlotys. Those are statistics. that we actually do not want to get used to because they are far from desirable. That obviously drives our great optimism and expectations of 2024. I hope that Rafa will be able to convince you that we do have a sound basis for optimism. And there is another thing I would like to point to. The year 2023 has truly shown a pickup in the technological development tempo affecting different areas of life, financial services included. We obviously all associate that with the phrase of the year 2023. And it is repeated so often. that it actually has been out of proportion in terms of the artificiality or intelligence indeed. Nonetheless, 2023 has shown that despite all challenges, regulatory uncertainties included, do not have the time to wait for the technological debt to pick up. We have to introduce changes, both with regard to IT foundations, so to speak, and freeing up organizational structures of material impediments, to put it very To put it in a very general term, we have to truly cloudize our operations, so to speak, and we are about to proceed to changes in our distributional channels. Yes, it goes without saying that the old waves are still there. They are being slowly shut down. as proven by cash transactions closed in our branches. But the new is on our threshold, and this is something we have to prepare for. This is something that was truly important to our 2023 operations. Now, with regard to our performance, you can read, and I'm sure you have read all that was prepared for you. Bozena is going to introduce you to details. I know that the provisions for credit risk may trigger your doubt. Nonetheless, I wish to assure you that we have been planning no great change. We are remaining conservative and traditional. Safety and calmness. I do understand that you may have found it as something of a surprise in terms of our decisions concerning the dividend. Bojana is going to comment on that as well. Obviously we have had a gap in terms of the accrual of financial activities dynamics and hence our dividend related decisions. Now we're going to move to macroeconomics, the overall trends, and we are going to obviously listen to what our excellent macroeconomic analysis bureau is telling us with Rafał at its helm. Bożena is going to be talking about our performance, our financial performance with a specific pivotal focus on issues that might be of particular interest to you. Thank you very much for this introduction. Now, with regard to the predicted trends in 2024, we have, well, the year of slowdown followed by a pickup is behind us. Now, the tempo dropped slightly in the fourth quarter. saw that the fourth quarter data has shown us that consumption is not really growing. We are definitely in the midst of investment, which was a bright spot for the year 2023. Nonetheless, the weakness of export has been apparent, connected to what was going on in the German economy, and we are not in a great at a great place at this time. 2024 is a year of more opportunity, but we have to count on ourselves to put things bluntly. German economy is going through cyclic and structural difficulties. Cyclic, for example, the lack of possibility of generating a fiscal impulse and with regard to structural issues that ties in with expensive energy, and the automotive market. So we obviously have to understand that this is reflected in the loan market, which ties in with income. Certain statistics are not very popular with the society. Nonetheless, there are foundations to improve consumption in terms of income and general mood. The potential is there. albeit it has not yet happened. Now, we do know that consumers are cautiously optimistic. Nonetheless, they have a propensity for saving. I believe that affordability and prices of certain commodities and services may be behind it. We have to be aware that certain frozen accounts may be actually unfrozen. We do know that war is still at hand. So the society is showing a high propensity for savings, for saving in general, as Bronan told you. We should not expect any kind of consumption boom in 2024. We can be cautiously optimistic, predicting a 3% increase rather than a 1% drop in 2023. Now, with regard to investments in 2024, we have recorded a 3% growth, slightly below one half than what we had recorded last year, the structure of investments may change. In 2023, we were dominated by the energy sector and transport, mainly the gas pipe infrastructure. Now, investments focused on a very narrow community of companies mainly managed by the State Treasury. We do hope that the situation will improve in 2024. We are obviously also taking the EU funding into account. The graph in the bottom left part of the page shows the EU funding. 1.3% of GDP is going to be fed to Poland. Without the national recovery plan, that would be zilch. Nonetheless, if we add the green bar there too, the net balance of grants and loans will total 2.7% GDP compared to 2.1% in 2023. There is an improvement there. Funds are going to be coming in in December, followed by April and October. So we are truly hoping on the effects, the multiplication effects, bring some kind of effect. We also hope that not only large companies and state-owned companies, but also the medium-sized companies are going to take advantage of it. We do hope that the Polish economy's potential is going to be unblocked. The share of investment in GDP had been dropping in 2023. It was very low, approximately 17%. And apart from national investments, domestic investments, we also see a potential for a growth in foreign direct investment. We have been talking to investors from external companies. Yes, we are definitely perceived as number one in terms of investment sharing, but we are also preparing for a new European and global deal. I know that some countries want to have their manufacturing processes closer to the borders, I know that many investors had been waiting for the results of Polish elections. They are definitely going to be moving their manufacturing processes here, but in all probability only in the second half of the year. So in all probability we will have to wait for that. Now in terms of interest rates and inflation rates, now we are expecting that we are going to go down to 2.5% in terms of the minimum. We know that disinflation... signals are there. We already have seen that the base inflation has been dropping. The shocks of last year have been dissipating. That also translates into our base inflation rates. That plus the propensity for saving, probably we can assume that inflation in Poland will drop to 2.5% in the first quarter, but then it is going to grow to 5% or 6% towards the end of the year, because some of the inflation factors have been have been frozen, such as, for example, the VAT on food. So we may expect a net effect of inflation of 4.5% to 5%. Yes, the cost of labour and the minimum remunerations, minimum wages are definitely going to be affecting the inflation rate, keeping it high. Now, what will the Monetary Policy Council do? Now, the reactions have already changed. In the US, for example, You may actually expect a decrease of 100, 150 basis points in Romania, 150, a similar effect in the Czech Republic. So we are going to be reducing the rates by 25 percentage points, which is absolutely symbolic. And last but not least, energy investments of great importance to our bank as well. We took a look at the cost of emission of so-called high energy and high emissions on the Polish market. That's on the left. Today, Polish companies are spending 1.8% of GDP on the emission rights. We are purchasing some of our emission rights outside and 8% from our own government. Now Poland is now spending 1% of GDP on green projects, very little. So we are spending very little on green investments, very large sum of money, excuse me, on emission rights, which means that ETS, is actually penalizing us for the slowdown of energy conversion over last years. Now, the Czech Republic is in a similar situation. They are actually purchasing a specific percentage of emission rights outside their own borders. How do we get out of that? We have to keep investing in green energy. Until the end of this decade, you can actually used 45 billion in loans and 35 billion in grants from the EU to support such green investments. So you can support each and every investment with a loan, which means that we can get out of the situation that we have placed in by high energy and high energy costs. Good morning. Let me say a few words about what was going on in our financial performance in the fourth quarter and 2023 in general. A lot has been going on. So, starting at the top, our net profit in the fourth quarter totaled 1.27 billion zlotys and commentaries have proven that this has been a the effect of changes to certain expectations and the low cost of risk. I'm going to talk about it shortly. 109 million, that was our increase, 9%, quarter to quarter on quarter. And should we segment the growths, I would like to primarily point out that in that particular quarter, We had reversed the correction for amendments we made to interest rates as introduced in the third quarter, 190 million quarter on quarter. As said before, our cost of risk dropped by 85 million zlotys quarter on quarter. That is the effect of changes to macroeconomic decisions concerning our provisions and sales of our irregular portfolios that allowed us to generate 24 million zlotys in net profit.

At the same time, despite that trend in the risk costs, we managed to generate 105 million provision for CHF portfolio related risks. Also, our general cost in the P&L grew by 126 million, with a major contribution from the restructuring provision amounting to 66 million. If we look at the dynamics of our results across 2023, it's a record-breaking result.

for the growth from year to year. But let's remember that last year this result was covered by high costs resulting from credit holidays. If we were to clean up our interest rate for the effect of holidays from credit vacation

If we adjust for that, the growth was 13% year on year, which was mainly due to higher volumes and better interest margin. I do believe that it's worthwhile to mention what happened in our remaining income. We had a historic result of 343 million. PLN annually. It's mainly due to our trading income. In 2023, it was subject to high volatility in terms of interest rates and FX. And all that allowed us to generate such a high tracing result. Well, of course, in this P&L, year on year, we had a significant drop of regulatory costs by 41%. You might remember last year, we had the cost of SOPCA and the higher regulatory costs, which decreased by 35% this year. And again, about the risk costs lower by 40%. In our case, the trend is a bit different to what you might have seen in other banks. Last year, we booked a provision for CHF denominated loans because we anticipated what happened with the EUCJ decisions at the beginning of this year. That's why the change in that provision for CHF loans. And I mentioned positive recalculations of risk costs and macroeconomic assumptions related to backtesting our models. All in all, our accumulated ROE adjusted by macro cash flow hedge result amounts to nearly 23%, which is nearly two percentage points higher quarter on quarter. Now about the interest income. In Q4, it was 2.2 billion PLN, which was better by 4% quarter on quarter. Our quarterly interest margins stayed virtually unchanged at 3.7%. The annual result being 8.2 billion, which was 13% growth year-on-year, if we adjusted by the effect of credit vacation. As a result, our accumulated interest margin went better by 7%. BIPs were 3.63% at present. It is also a result of higher interest rates in 2023 against the backdrop of the previous periods. Well, looking at what Bruno said before, let's look at our LTD ratio at the end of Q4. It was one of the lowest recently. Last time we had 90% LTZ was at the end of 2019. It might not be the best level possible and the situation is even worse in the banking sector. Mind you, based on the 69% level across the sector, we might say that it's the lowest within the last two decades. This clearly shows the need to generate demand on loans. Speaking of fees and commissions, our result in Q4 was the highest recently with 1% quarter-on-quarter growth. But if we look at the year-on-year result, it is indeed a 9% growth in fees and commissions income. All in all, we can see a very positive trend of higher activity of our clients across all areas of our operations. Looking at annual, not so much quarterly results, we can speak about 8% growth on financing. It's a result of... the credit activity of our customers in 2022, we had a very positive card result. 16%, a very solid insurance growth and a very solid result on FX transactions. It's very much after expectations. in this area. Speaking of costs, our Q4 costs amounted to 1,143,000,000 PLN, growing by 126 million throughout the quarter. with a strong contribution of restructuring provision amounting to 86 million PLN. But both in quarterly and annual results, we can see a snowball effect of the inflation we've been facing for the last years, which ups the costs across the board. Speaking of the cost of risk now, in the previous quarter, a write-off amounted to $177 million, with $151 million in the preceding quarter. walk you through it step by step. This quarter we had 105 million Swiss franc denominated land provisions, which is 109% portfolio coverage. And this quarter we also had a slightly negative impact from costs related to changing macroeconomic forecasts. We've seen a different corporate trend. with a growth of 26 million resulting from the adjustment by the GDP trends and a very positive trend in the retail segment with 17 million change. we've seen a very positive contribution from changing unemployment rates. Like I mentioned, in Q4 we had a large irregular loan sales deal with a very positive impact on the retail segment amounting to 24 million PLN. Now about the corporates segment, because it had a slightly more complex dynamics. If we compare Q3 and Q4, you cannot help but see a growth of 87 million resulting from macroeconomic changes. Because in Q3, we had the release amounting to 144 million. And in this quarter, we set up more provisions, like I said before. And this is the backdrop of the change of provision costs. And this quarter, the remaining effect is from the performance of our loan portfolio, which I'm going to dwell upon in a minute, and it's a normal trend in the corporate loan portfolios against the backdrop of the overall macroeconomic trends. In the retail segment, if we leave out the effect of CHF loan provisions, we could see considerable provision release. On the one hand, we could see a very strong effect of our mortgage loans. But like we mentioned before, we had some backtesting of our models in Q4, which released the provisions amounting to about 100 million. We already said that whenever we speak about the cost of risks, quarterly situation won't tell you much. It's better to watch longer time periods. So if you look at the whole year, you might get a better picture of what happened in the cost of risks and why it happened. So in 2023, our annual cost of $613 million, which was $417 million, less than in the preceding year. Half of this net difference was due to changing CHF provisions, and the other half, 260 million, was due to changing costs related to macroeconomic models. Last year, we set up 217 million Whereas in this year, we released provisions amounting to 42 million. If you look at the macroeconomic parameters, you can see why it happened. And it clearly shows the way IFRS 9 model operates, where the macro effect precedes the real growth of the risk costs. That's why in the previous year, the major contribution was macro changes. And in this year, we saw some macro adjustment and individual costs of risk springing up, replacing some of the latter. If we leave out the macro effects and the effect from CHF loans, our aggregated margin and the aggregated cost of risk in 2020 In 2023 was 35 bps and in 2022 34 bps, which shows quite a stability in our costs of risk and which is a good explanation of how to follow the dynamics of costs of risk because quarterly situation is not a good indicator. Now about the quality of our portfolio, you can see a large stability and the share of irregular loans across all segments. I should mention steady growth. of the coverage provisioning ratio at Stage 3, despite the sales of irregular loans. Speaking of capital adequacy, we have a considerable surplus with a positive trend due to Tier 1 adjustments and revaluation reserve pricing of capital elements and debentures being part of our fair value and hedge strategy. We are up to all MRAIL requirements. We already reported the MREL loan amounting to 1.5 billion euros last December, which buffers us to meet all MREL requirements. Now about our intention to pay out the dividend. Today, we reported to the market that the intention of the Management Board is to recommend it to the General Assembly to pay out the dividend amounting to 75% of the net profit for 2023, mainly due to the capital surplus generated with lower lending we've witnessed this past year. On the other hand, we already reported it in our December report that the KNF had no reservations as to the possibility to pay out the dividend for the past years amounting to 1 billion PLN. So this is the decision we want to recommend to General Assembly to be paid out together with the profits for 2023. So much for our comments. We are open to questions. So let's have the Q&A session now. First, we'll handle questions from the audience, if there are any, and then we'll move on to questions from our online participants. I'm Adam Soss from Benyus. I'd like to ask about your forecast when it comes to the interest, net interest margin against the backdrop of what you said, a slight drop in the interest rates. Please bear in mind that we are not commenting upon future events, but considering what Rafał said, if we had such a scenario, I don't think we should expect major change in this area. But what can have an impact here is the form and the operation on the markets, abrupt increase of lending and investment segments, and subsidized instruments. In particular, the housing loan programme announced by the government for Q3. But bearing all that in mind, we shouldn't expect major changes in that area.

Thank you very much. Jacek Ramotowski, I have the following question. With regard to this conference, if I understood you well, you were talking about the coverage for the Swiss franc portfolio to the tune of 109% by provisions. I would like to ask what the explanation is. Why did you decide to exceed the 100% and what is the ceiling value what is the cap so to speak what is the limit you know 109 190 or less we are using model components and we are also referencing whatever is going on on the market you have already noticed that this particular ratio this index is not super accurate It considers the provisions to the active portfolio, active current portfolio. I would like to also point out that any disputes might arise with regard to closed portfolios. So this is a certain model that may, in 2023, have been affected by the... EUCJ decisions and the actual FX value. That is something that we are very much aware of. We are trying to adjust to what is going on on the market. Should you take a look at analogous indices of other financial institutions, you will find that this is the way taken by the market. As time passes, The share of paid-off loans is growing with regard to the value of outstanding loans. And our financial flow requires us for provisions to be transferred from balance sheet to non-balance sheet positions. which is very much visible once you take a look at our liabilities, where we are showing the provisions, non-balance sheet provisions for paid off loans. This is a natural phenomenon that is definitely going to be expanding as time passes. On the other hand, we are also reviewing and verifying assumptions concerning disputes for outstanding and paid off loans. And as a result, the sum of provisions for the active portfolio in the banking sector, in the banking system, is growing. According to data filed with the bank, we now have 85% of provision coverage in the fourth quarter. It actually grew in 2023 as a result of the formation decisions. We have 170 a million had been actually set up in provisions throughout 2023. Now, I do not wish to predict the future. Yet again, we are making an effort to set up provisions for Swiss franc loans to avoid debt. Whatever we have to set up, we set up. That is This is as far as I will go with regard to predicting the future. But we are not the first bank to actually have exceeded the 100% threshold. I believe that the group of such banks will be growing also as time passes. I see no questions from the floor. Web questions. Let's start with the... loan campaign in the sector. What does the bank want to do with regard to campaigns, specifically when it comes to financing local governments? That is a question coming from bank.pl, and we also have a question from Paulus Bizneso. Given the forecast concerning inflation rates as presented by Mr. Bonecki, should the loan campaign be more intense, along with its performance, with regard to forecast of depots and loans, with regard to what Brunon said. Indeed, over the next two years, 2024-2025, we are probably going to be balancing out the depot-to-loan index. In 2024... The depots will be growing by approximately 60 billion, half of which in loans in 2025. Probably the growth in depots and loans is going to even out. With regard to consumer loans, this year, we are quite cautious with regard to this year. In 2024, consumer loans will in all probability be growing by one BP given, well, probably by the end of 2024. Well, by the end of 2024, consumption will grow by 3% rather than by five to six as we saw during the previous years. The society has a propensity for saving and this is how everything translates onto the overall dynamics of consumer loans. In 2023, we have noticed a gradual improvement of corporate loans in the second half of the year as EU funding began trickling in. In the first half of the year, the dynamic was was and in all probability will be negative in the first half of the year to then grow to 2% in the second half of the year. The big picture is that the large production of deposits will be slowly but surely petering out, and it will take loans approximately two years to catch up in order for the both to even out by 2025. Well, I am oversensitive here, and I would like to emphasize yet again with regard to that particular question, the poor activity of financing the economy is a result of the poor demand rather than barriers in the banking system. I would like to re-emphasize that the banking community truly needs a dynamic loan campaign. The economy needs such a loan campaign as well. The banks are something of a reflection, a mirror, a conduit. What we need is a growth in activity and growth in activity ought to begin with financing. So it's all about demand. I know that the market believes that we don't get loans because banks are not giving us loans. That is not true. Such beliefs are not reflected in statistics. The most recent report by the National Bank of Poland proves that phenomenon as well. Whereas during previous periods, the National Bank of Poland had been in some... doubt whether that had not been due to certain barriers in procedures, in our ability to improve overall ROE indices. But this is not the case today. You also have to bear in mind that individual banks have little to say in terms of the overall market condition. The competition is there. Institutions will be competing. The competition is rather fierce in the banking sector, but if there is no demand, there is nothing to compete for. I hope that you, ladies and gentlemen of the press, understand it. This is something I wanted to say with regard to that particular underlying question. I also have other questions concerning the dividend. Another question... The generous proposition of the dividend, is that a rather generous proposition tying in with the loan performance? Well, that is a combination of our current equity position and our predictions. We are definitely very much optimistic with regard to loan campaigns, but Let us understand and make no mistake, our equity is our basis for any kind of loan campaigns and our mission that we carry with regards to the economy. In other words, if we plan for an increase in the loan campaign to the tune of what Rafa was talking about, can we assume that things are going to get better, although there is a limit to that, too. We are proposing the payment of a dividend to the tune of an amount that will not affect our performance. We are definitely expecting lower demand for demand than our capacity actually is. And we are not taking a one-year perspective here. annual average perspective. Equity and capital are there to fund, to finance. We are a bank that generates equity capital for our growth, and growth is our priority because this is what the economy needs, and we are there to support the economy. Such is our mission. I would not want to conclude that we are predicting something bad in the economy. The reverse is true. As Rafał said, we are actually predicting a growth in the loan campaign for companies to the tune of 10%. We always want to grow faster than the market. We also have to point out that we have quite an equity surplus there, and there is the element, the component of equity effectiveness in terms of balance sheet structure management, hence the extraordinary proposition of dividend payout. There is one other thing that is worth mentioning, i.e. that is the management's proposal that has to be confirmed by the General Assembly, but also it has to be approved by the financial... supervision authority and we have not yet received that approval. One other question. What is your equity surplus at the end of 2023? And how about an estimate of how the payout is going to actually affect the equity adequacy indices? Our liquidity index does not account for 2023 performance that had not been made part of our equity calculations. In other words, should we pay dividend of 75%? As a result, 25% is going to be acclimated in equities and that's approximately a billion zlotys. In other words, roughly equal to the undivided profit for previous years. So I think that this proves to you that we are going to be safeguarding our equity stability despite what has been going on, for one. And another thing is, according to this particular slide, we are showing you nominal values above the minimum requirements. Now, with regard to TCR, because that is what we have to account for, we are now declaring that our overall liquidity ratio has exceeded 6%, 6% above minimum requirement levels. And that is a truly important or significant amount. Now, in terms of what is going to happen pre and after the dividend, well, our interim performance had not been accounted for in equity, which means that the overall performance is going quite neutral. Is the bank planning for 81 instrument emissions in 2024? No, we are not planning for any emissions of the kind. We don't need them. There is also a question concerning the CRR and CRG new requirements on your equity performance. I believe that this is really an interesting topic to be discussed throughout 2024. Yes, the CRC changes are definitely going to bring advantages and disadvantages changes. Now, since we are not using advanced methods for retail portfolios, the impact will not be detrimental, will not be hugely negative. It is going to be neutral. And to close the equity motive, I have the question concerning the cost of our MRL and how will it affect us. We have taken out a loan for four years. It is an intercompany transaction, which means that by definition it is based on market margins, based on benchmarks, market benchmarks. But we are not in the habit of disclosing the margin. Thank you very much. I have other questions here at hand concerning the governmental programmes regarding housing campaigns or governmental plans concerning housing programmes. Do you intend to partake? As you know, we did not join the previous programme. We also told you why. The formula of resolving the housing issue by supporting demand is by no means a miraculous remedy that we are in any way willing to support. Now, given what is going on now, well, given the fact that it will be designed as a perpetual, long-term, and stable program, we are somewhat inclined to join the program, to join the campaign. I would like to emphasize that even in case of governmental programs, the bank does not want to expose the clients to confusion and any kind of misunderstandings of principles, both long and short term, long term in particular. And that will be the baseline for our partaking or not. We are not today aware of all the relevant details of the program. On this day, as of this date, we are rather positively inclined to join the program and participate in the process of distributing subsidized funding. But obviously, we are very much aware and somewhat concerned about the pricing performance of pricing consequences. We also have a question from Bloomberg concerning frank credits. Your portfolio of 11.9% of outstanding loans, will these clients be offered any kind of conciliation? If yes, what kind of conciliation are we talking about? As said before, The non-balance sheet provisions for paid-off credits includes provisions that had been set up for outstanding loans as well, which means that this index ought to be perceived as such. I believe that in principle we have to be very much aware that there is a certain proportionality of provisions for paid-off credits in the context of disputes that have been filed and submitted. Importantly, the paid-off credits or paid-off loan portfolio has its own closed-off value based on the FX differences taking out of the difference of the date when the loan had been launched and paid off, respectively, which means that the scale of risk for that portfolio is considerably lower than in case of the portfolio of outstanding loans. So there is definitely a certain proportionality at stake, also arising from the specificity of disputed cases. Given the potential of profit, quote unquote, for the client, obviously the potential profit for the client who had already paid off the loan is considerably lower. In terms of conciliation agreements, there is no reason for which a conciliation should not be offered for paid off loans, specifically if cases are taken before courts of law.

I can see no further questions from the audience. Or there is one. Yes, I'd like to ask about V-RUN. I'm not sure whether it is largely forgotten or not so much. What's... your general volume of loans at Veyron with special focus on mortgages. This indicator was adjusted in January. So somebody paid their installments, some time. Let's say the adjustment was four and the installments should have been paid at the level of 3.2 or 4.8. It can be either. So do you have any claims from that client or are there any back claims? So what happens after the adjustment? I've got some further questions prepared as well. For all we know, the RFR or VIRON reform is going on and going strong. So if you ever heard any rumours about its end, they are largely exaggerated. So the reform is ongoing. Late last year, we had typical reports on the adjustment volume. Also, quite importantly, There were reports about the updates of the roadmap. The reform is, of course, very important because of the current share of variable rate based loans and the share in our economy. So I believe there'll be more information to expect about the adjustment. As for the mere adjustment report, the administrator told us that the adjustments volume wasn't really huge and it wasn't necessary. And all adjustments are unidirectional. So after the adjustment at every quoting day, historically Theron was higher than the one before the accrual adjustment. To that end, on every interest accrual day, it's something different, but even if then it could be better for the customer than the bank. Well, of course, the administrator said that these were adjustments, but not material enough to be included in the further talks. And the bank does not intend and will never intend to go out to the clients and quote-unquote demand anything based on that from them. Well, of course, you're right. It's a lucky coincidence that over that period all adjustments were unidirectional because they didn't have to be. Well, of course, we wish there are no adjustments, but it's impossible. There will be some, but we wish for as small ones as possible. As you perfectly know, as of past June, we extend mortgage loans based on variable rates and V-run because that was the assumption of our working group that we would increase their production. We are aware that their production out there on the market has not been growing. So we are like the last man standing here. We feel stranded here, but we'll go on. I'm not sure we are revealing our exposure here, but as you might guess, the loan production in the second half of last year, that was based on the variable rate, not huge as compared to the previous periods. So the aggregated V-run variable rate value is relatively small as well. Well, you can see in our presentations that in Q3, which was the first quarter, where Viren reports 80% of our production was fixed rates, and Q4, we had 76% production at fixed rates. So the volumes are appearing, but they are not material, not yet. So the production was relatively low in the second half of the year, And with the highest share of fixed rates loans, we start getting at 30% of fixed rate share when it comes to PLN denominators or mortgage loans. And this is where we are going. In 2023, we celebrated five years since we actively started selling fixed rates mortgage loans. This is still the dominant form of loans extended, not only in our bank. It's worth mentioning that the borrowers which started taking out fixed rate loans five years ago contributed a lot to what the model is now. So the mortgage lending model in Poland should be largely based on fixed rate products. We are strong proponents of fixed rate mortgage loans. We are trying to do our utmost to pave the way to higher exposure and higher awareness of them. This is what we do. because, well, if we want to make a change, we should always start with demand and bearer. So we've seen considerable growth in the share of those products across the board on the mortgage market. And there's a larger offer of strong, secure loans based on fixed rate as well. Just to continue, I've got some more questions. You had a deal with PKO BP for derivatives to secure well, to hedge this VIRIN variable rate. What can you say about this market? Is it just you and PKO? Or are there any other institutions joining the picture? What's the scale of that market? KNF promised to give us data for that next year because now they are giving data for 2022. They reported 2022, and next year, they'll report 2023. And this is when it all started. This is what we learned. What's the volume of the market? And where is it? settled here in London, or London. So the volumes, the market, the number of entities. Okay, let me handle this one. The deal we are talking about between us and PKOBP, which was also covered in the context of the reform, was a test deal. trying to show the possibility to roll such deals out further. This is, by the way, one of the milestones to change this indicator, creating the derivative market. It's a very important element of growing this market. But for this market to be really relevant, We need loans. It's like communicating vessels. But the first thing you need is the cash markets to arrive at the derivative market. So like we said before, this is just the beginning of the lending. And we still have too few entities offering cash products based on vRun. Only after we arrive at a certain volume of those products will we be able to talk about a state of the art market. So we still have to wait for more VIRON-based instruments to come to start talking about the active derivative market. We are talking a bit about changing the indicator, but what we are talking about really is creating a new market. It's a very relevant yet very difficult reform because of the scale of using variable rate products and the Polish economy. We want to decrease the dependence of the Polish consumer on the variability, but we are also shaping the market along with new participants. We are trying to create a market through production. We never wanted to be alone on this market. We are still optimistic And we hope that Veyron-based production will become more ubiquitous and that the market will grow faster, leading to more stability. K&F also has certain oversight expectations of this market. When they adjusted the roadmap and extended the transition period, they voiced the oversight expectation that in mid-year this year, the new loan production be V-run based. And this is where we are. We are talking about mid-2024. And this is when banks should switch to variant-based production. And it was very closely related to the steering committee's decision to extend the rail map. Andre had a question. Good afternoon. I've got a question about your expectations of capital requirements, because we are slowly but steadily starting a debate on the possible anti-cyclic buffer or coming back to the systemic risk buffer. I think we all have the same level of knowledge here. It's the Financial Stability Committee decision. There are comments springing up here and there, but so far we haven't had any decision coming. So it's hard to talk about any expectations. Frankly, speaking of the systemic risk buffer in particular, when it's there, it will be like it is on other markets. We won't talk about a single indicator of 3% like we had before. There'll be multiple levels, but we still have to wait for decisions to come. Although in capital planning, we should factor that in as well. Similarly to the central bank, From the perspective of the banking overall, we cannot see any major durations. In Poland, the banking sector is pretty stable. There aren't any serious risks materializing in the next future, we think, but you're right. We start talking about it, but we are not going to participate in this discussion because of purely governance. Okay, some further online questions. There are questions pertaining to the restructuring provision. What are the main factors to reduce the headcount by 17 percent? What are the banking areas with more or less reduction? What is the restructuring effect we should expect in the years to come? Is there any pressure on growing wages? Well, let me put it this way. The bank's optimizing its cost-based It sounds very bureaucratic, doesn't it? But we are an evolution-based bank. We want to avoid technological and production debt, which means that we are trying to boost our productivity all the time, constantly. What this comment is about is physical access channels and we've been working on it for decades already and we'll keep working on it because there's still space for it. We could follow the number of transactions in physical channels and there is a certain trend, a very clear trend showing that the contact points are no longer transaction points, but the points of talking to clients about the decisions they will take about a retirement plan or a possibility to buy some real estate. So all these conversations are held in physical points of contact. And it takes different tools than 10 years ago. It's a dramatic change, what happened. Secondly, along with the growth in self-service, end-to-end in the bank, we have persons working in transaction support, mainly in our operations division, including contact center and some ops employees. Not many of them, but these are the areas we've been reducing employment in for over a decade. We've been working on it constantly for over a decade. Well, there's growth in employment in regulatory areas because of KYC AML. if nothing else. That's why the drop in the headcount in the bank was less visible recently. And it's no secret either that we are constantly growing our tech headcount across all divisions in the bank because you can find the data scientists anywhere. be it CX experts or the finance division. They are everywhere. They have to be everywhere. So, the trend is to increase productivity. And this is what's been going on for a decade. It's nothing new, and it's not restructuring. So, there are no abrupt changes. We're just continuing the process that has been going on for years. Speaking of areas, well, there is an area where we reduce employment in the physical channels or contact points, technology permitting. And I already mentioned that. Also, we've been reducing employment in KYC AML, where the regulatory situation made us hire more people, and now we don't have to. We have more and more tools with AI and so on. We'll see an impact of it slowly in the years to come. We'll see it even more. The growth of our bank is also a factor. The net result will be a gross result of certain changes and increments and decreases Well, like I said, it's nothing new. It's been going on for several years. During the pandemic and the war, it was hard to do anything huge. So understandably, with all that and KYC, AML, new regulations and new employment requirements, I understand where you're coming from. But otherwise, we are just continuing what we've been doing so far. Thank you.

Please quote the main reasons for which we have noticed a drop of conciliations for CHF loans in the fourth quarter. Well, the trend of dropping conciliation agreement volumes is a universal one. Probably you have been following the rulings of the EUCJ, and that has been affecting the entire banking system. At our bank, the phenomenon is on a micro scale. The conciliation and mediation is always a very good solution for CHF loans and related issues. for the banking system. Offering conciliation agreements is ubiquitous and has been performing. In order for a conciliation agreement to be entered into, you need more than the will of the bank. You also need clients willing to sign. I am still in favor of the statutory solution, but no new news there. No news there. The process is simply too long, too lengthy, and it is not healthy for economic education or economic awareness. both of which ought to be recognized as a foundation for a strong economy and strong state, the new wave that we definitely need. I will be sticking to my guns, and I will ask you to bear with us. I will not let that slide. It is too important a moment for Polish economy for us to waste the historically important opportunity. we are actually putting it to waste. I believe that such waste may actually be to the detriment of the iron cast rule of sticking to contract rules. Do you see a potential for the growing number of conciliations for PLN-denominated loans? My response will be similar. The low cost of entry emphasized by offices of law, despite all the declarations of the regulators and the FSA. Well, the number of entities are really huge on the Polish market. The cost of entry, as I said, are really low and the potential for profit is high. So I believe that is simply an invitation for people to walk in and sign the deal. The regulator's position is non-ambiguous with regard to that particular phenomenon. Let us bear that in mind. We also have questions concerning the performance for the fourth quarter. How many NPLs did you sell in the fourth quarter? We sold, as the table shows you, we were selling retail and corporate loans. and we have exceeded 200 million zlotys in our balance sheet. The majority, well, the retail loans accounted for a major share thereof. And the second question, when's the high amortization index in the fourth quarter? It is due to two factors. We have to bear in mind firstly that our balance sheet values are growing for asset components that are subject to amortization. not to mention the fact that we are actually engaging in annual cycles of amortization of reviews. We performed a very similar exercise in 2023 with a specific result. And we also have two questions concerning state treasury bonds, T bonds, in two different contexts. When will you introduce retail T-bonds to expand your offer? Now, that question crops up every quarter. Why is the bank not joining the primary market? Let me explain. The bank wants to. The bank is not being taken account of. We are not considered by the... by the powers that be, it takes two to tango. We are now the, you know, the supplicant. Now, the other question is, how do you consider, what do you think about the possibility of expanding your offer to include T-bonds to expand the loan campaign? Now, in the bank structure today, T-bonds account for 25 percent of our assets. So, I'm going to wear my economist hat now. From the viewpoint of economy and from the viewpoint of the impediments to the balance sheet associated with the risk of focusing on a single financial instrument. As an economist, I do not really see the potential of that particular share of T-bonds growing. That share actually grows from 15% the share of those financial instruments grew from 15% to 25%, which obviously means that we have increased our concentration of assets on that particular instrument. The National Bank of Poland have been focusing on that particular risk and it considers that risk to be moderate given the equity value and given the overall growth of interest rates. If memory serves, the stability report of the bank points to a 300 300% growth, and that gives rise to 90% growth of potential risk. And I, as an economist, consider that to be huge, huge risk. So if a 300 BP growth is going to bring us close to the margins of acceptable standards. I consider that a huge risk, but I have been the head of risk management for many years, and I believe that this is what is shining through in my comment here. And this is exactly the kind of signals we are giving out, that this potential has now been affected. Moving from 25% to 35%, for example, in T-bonds will definitely generate a problem. I'm talking about the overall sector. And I'm talking about the entire banking sector, as I said. And as the example of such banks has told us, some banks have already been engaging in it. That is it in terms of the web-based questions. I see no questions from the floor. So I wish to thank you for today's attendance and please do join us in May for our next session.