Jtc Plc

Hello and welcome to the JTC PLC interim results presentation. My name is David and I'll be your host for today's event. Please note that the event is being recorded. For the duration of the presentation your lines will be on listen only, however you will have the opportunity to ask questions at the end. This can be done using the raise hand feature on the control panel of your screen. When we come to answering your question we will invite you to unmute and speak live to address our presenters. Before we proceed, as you will have seen, JTC is currently in an offer period under the UK Takeover Code. As summarised in the company's R&S on 12 September regarding possible offers, the Board received three preliminary non-binding proposals from Femera in August which were considered by the company and its advisors and unanimously rejected by the Board. The Board received a fourth revised proposal on 9 September and is in early stage discussions with Panera in relation to the possible offer. The Board also received two preliminary and non-binding proposals from Warburg Pincus in early September, which were considered and unanimously rejected. A further proposal has been received and the Board is currently in early stage discussions with Warburg Pincus in relation to the possible offer. In respect to these approaches, you will appreciate that management are very restricted in the comments they can make. only commentating on information already in the public domain, and would therefore prefer that most of the questions this morning are focused on the business. Thank you. I will now hand you over to the presenters for today. Good morning. Welcome to the presentation of JTC PLC's interim results for the period ended 30th June 2025. I'm Nigel McCain, the Group CEO, and presenting with me today is Martin Fotheringham, our Group CFO. Let's move to slide 1 and the agenda. We will begin with my CEO highlights for the period, after which Mark will run through the financial review. Following this, I will take a deeper look at the group and the divisions and then go on to discuss how the rise in popularity of alternative assets positively impacts JTC's long term growth potential and explain how we act as a key enabler of capital flows in these asset classes through both divisions. I will also give a brief progress report on the integration of City Trust into our wider business post completion and will provide colour on our focus areas for the medium to long term. Finally, I will summarise our key takeaways and my expectations for the group for the rest of the year. We will then open the forum up for questions. 2025 is the second year of our Cosmos-era business plan, in which we aim to double the size of the business by no later than 2027, and for the third time since our IPO in 2018. The group has delivered a strong performance in the first half of 2025, with strong organic growth of 11%, record new business wins achieved through high win rates in what has been a more challenging macro environment. The results underline the benefits of having access to both institutional and private capital basis and continues to demonstrate the sustainable and evergreen nature of the JTC business model. As we approach the end of our 38th consecutive year of revenue and profit growth since inception, our unique shared ownership culture, diversified professional services business model and continued focus on client service excellence All these are being well positioned to succeed and continue growing in any economic environment. In H1 2025, our group revenue was up 17.3% and EBITDA was up 15.1%, delivered at an underlying EBITDA margin of 32.8%. Our net organic growth was 11% ahead of our guidance for the Cosmos era, with growth growth at 14.6% and client attrition at 3.6%, an improvement from last year's 4.8%. We also achieved another record for new business wins in the period of £19.5 million. As a result of our performance in H1, coupled with the benefit of our two most recent acquisitions, City Trust and Kleinwalk Ambrose Trust, we remain confident that we will achieve our Cosmos era goals ahead of schedule. The PTS division has performed particularly well in the period, with outstanding net organic growth at 14.5%, continuing a strong trend. It is now established as the leading independent global trust company business and is the largest independent provider by some distance in the important US market, which continues to be an opportunity-rich environment for the group. It is pleasing to report the completion of our acquisition of City Trust on 1 July, and we have made good progress to accelerate the integration and harmonise the business model. I will return to this later. Building on this, post-period end, we were delighted to announce the proposed acquisition of Climewalk Ambrose Trust Company, or KHT. The KHT deal is further evidence of the reputation JTC has established as the off-taker of choice for banks. as they seek lighter operating models and retrench to their core capabilities. KHT is highly complimentary to JTC's existing offering and brings us a UK Trust presence for the first time. The deal was executed at an attractive price of circa 6 times EBITDA and we expect to complete in Q4 2025 and for it to be earnings accretive in 2026. The ITS division delivered net organic growth of 9.2%. This is a strong result in a market where macroeconomic headwinds have led to a period of volatility and uncertainty linked to long sales cycles. Nevertheless, our pipeline has remained healthy and we achieved robust win rates of over 50% and onboarded some significant clients in the period. At a group operations level, there has been heightened project activity in the period. in the process of implementing a global billing platform to enhance consistency and standardisation across the group in support of our proprietary frameworks performance management tool. We are also enhancing our global risk and compliance framework, including a review and harmonisation of policies and procedures underpinned by the implementation of an enhanced new RegTech solution, CAMS. In addition, we are using the city acquisition as a catalyst to accelerate the planned upgrade to Quantius Core, our group-wide primary administration system. These important projects, together with our recently implemented Group HR platform and our development of the ChatJGC AI tool, are infrastructure investments which allow us to future-proof our global platform and capture the strong growth opportunities we see, both in the current Cognos era and into the Genesis era that will follow. Although temporarily margin dilutive, these investments are all designed to improve commercial performance and enhance the platform for growth in the medium term. As always, I will wrap up my highlights by thanking the top quality team we have at JTC. In July, we were delighted to award the second tranche of warehouse shares from our Employee Benefit Trust to our global workforce. for their individual and collective achievements in the Galaxy era between 2021 and 2023. We continue to believe that the power of our shared ownership culture is the foundation of JPC's 37-year track record of uninterrupted revenue and profit growth. Having 2,300 owners rather than employees makes an enormous difference to our working environment and the organisation's culture, which is reflected in our industry-leading staff retention figures, which are currently 96%. This enabled us to ensure that the team are happy, valued and empowered and highly motivated to improve our business and client experience every day. So now let's turn to slide 4 and the financial highlights. Our revenues have grown to £172.6 million and underlying EBITDA was £56.5 million, delivered an underlying group EBITDA margin of 32.8%. As previously highlighted, our group net organic growth was an excellent 11%. New business wins were a period record of £19.5 million as the group continues to benefit from excellent win rates of greater than 50% across both divisions. Now a consistent performance metric achieved in a competitive market. The new business pipeline remains strong and increased from £49.8 million at year-end to circa 60 million at the end of H1, indicating the probability of good momentum in the second half of the year. The lifetime value of Work 1 was another record at circa £267 million, based upon the 14.2 year average lifespan of our client book. This gives us visibility of over £2.4 billion of forward revenues from our existing client book. i.e. what the business would generate without the addition of any new mandates from this point forward. This metric continues to demonstrate the long-term and compounding value of the group. And finally, onto the interim dividend, which has been proposed at 5 pence per share, up 16.3% from 4.3p. Now over to Martin for a deeper look at the financials. Thank you, Nigel. We've delivered a strong set of results that are in line with our expectations. where we've continued to focus on delivering growth. Organic growth was 11%, the sixth successive reporting period where net organic growth has exceeded 10%. The financial highlights slide shows that our overall revenue growth was 17.3%. We're performing well, led by net organic growth. It's pleasing to see the momentum we built in 2024 carry into 2025. Our underlying EBITDA margin dropped by 0.6% from H1-24 and was 32.8% and there's more on this later. Earnings per share increased by 7.1%. Cash conversion was 86% and is in line with our guidance range of 85-90% annual cash conversion. This is lower than our normal H1 performance and I'll explain why later. Net debt increased by £43 million and this was driven by drawdowns for earnouts. It was a busy year in 2024 for M&A with five deals completed, which we've continued to integrate throughout 2025. The City Trust acquisition also completed on the 1st of July and we have the KHT deal which will complete later this year. At the period end, our reported underlying leverage was 2.06 times On a pro forma basis, our underlying leverage was below 2 times underlying EBITDA. And finally, our return on invested capital for the last 12 months was 13%. An improvement from the 12.6% we reported at the end of 2024. Moving on the slide, we'll start with revenue and our revenue bridge. On a constant currency basis, our revenue growth was 18.4%. This was above a reported growth of 17.3%, where we were again impacted by the weaker US dollar during the last 12 months. As our US presence has increased, so has our exposure to the US dollar. Gross new revenue was £36.8 million, a decrease from £38.3 million in H1-24. The prior period continued to enjoy the benefit of the immediate impact from the launch of our banking and treasury service. Gross attrition was £9.1 million which is 3.6% of annual revenues and is down from the 4.8% reported in the prior year. £6.2 million of this attrition was end of life and therefore 98.8% of non-end of life revenue was retained. This is the highest retained revenue result we've posted since IPO. Revenue recognised on new business wins in the year was 54%, compared to 51% recorded in H1-24. Our new business pipeline at the period end was a best-ever £60.4 million, which is a £10.6 million increase from the end of 2024. Let's move on to slide 9 and take a look at the first of our key metrics, net organic growth. As I've already said, we delivered organic growth of 11% in the last 12 months, with our three-year average now standing at 14.8%. We've posted net organic growth in excess of 10% for three successive years. ICS recorded net organic growth of 9.2%, which was commendable when considering external factors. where the continuing macroeconomic and geopolitical uncertainty has generally stalled fund launches and slowed down activity levels. The US has continued to deliver good growth for our ICS business. PCS has excelled with 14.5% net organic growth, with the US and Cayman the key drivers. Pricing growth remains strong at 5.1%, demonstrating our ability to recover increased costs of doing business. To conclude on revenue, let's look at the geographical profile on slide 10. All regions once again reported revenue growth in the period. The US continues to deliver impressive levels of organic growth and has established itself as a leading growth region. At IPO, the region represented 4% of our global revenue. and this now stands at 31%. Taking into account the city acquisition, we expect the US will represent approximately 35% of our global revenues. The rest of the world also recorded impressive growth of 74.3%, and this was driven by the inorganic growth of the FFP acquisition and the continued growth of our own Cayman business. We now move on to the EBITDA margin on slider living. The underlying margin was 32.8%, a drop from the 33.4% recorded in H1-24. As said previously, there are many moving parts in our margin story. On the one hand, we've improved our margin over recent years through the introduction of higher margin banking and treasury business. Typically, we also have a small operational gearing uplift each year of approximately 1%. As you know, we're committed to the future success of the business, and it's our strategy to invest in areas where we believe will ultimately benefit the business, whilst delivering an acceptable margin. This includes start-up services in new jurisdictions, current examples of which are our private office, ESG service, and Irish funds business, which we calculate drag our margin today by 0.6%. We also see margin dilution from investment in growth jurisdictions. These are jurisdictions where organic growth exceeds 15% or where the current infrastructure is disproportionate to the revenue generated. We currently have just over 10 jurisdictions that fall into this grouping. Gross margins from this cohort average 51% compared to mature jurisdictions where the average is 69%. Four years ago, 33% of our revenues came from these growth jurisdictions, whereas today it's over 50%. Finally on margins, I previously noted a higher spend on risk and compliance. Notwithstanding the hard to quantify amount of chargeable time we spend dealing with regulatory obligations, we also continue to invest into our group capability. Over time, that alone has impacted margins by 50 basis points. Now focusing on cash conversion on slide 12. Cash conversion was 86%, a decrease from 104% reported last year. Our normal cash collection cycle is that we have strong collections in H1 that are above 100%, so this is a significant drop, albeit it remains within our guidance range. The drivers for the drop are temporary and do not impact our ability to meet our annual target. Adjusting for these temporary impacts would have seen us delivering cash conversion of approximately 102%. The drivers for the decrease I've shown in the bottom graph were as follows. Four percentage points for temporary timing differences. These include cash outflows that we paid in H1 this year that we would normally pay out in H2. Four percentage points for a change in billing cycles for one of our business segments, where we've moved to a biannual billing cycle for fees that were previously billed on an annual basis at the beginning of each year. These fees were collected in July. A two percentage point impact due to FX in the period. This can fluctuate and has been adjusted to show a constant currency position. The sick percentage points is due to the impact of recent acquisitions, primarily FFP and STTC, where the businesses do not follow our usual H1 seasonality and their cash inflows are not weighted to the first half of the year. As you can see, adjusting for these, our underlying performance in H1 was strong. We maintain our medium-term guidance range for annual cash conversion of 85-90%. Now, let's look at net debt and leverage on slide 13. At the end of 2024, our reported net debt was £182.3 million. By the 30th of June, it stood at £225.1 million, an increase of £42.8 million. This was driven in the main by the net outflows for acquisitions of £47.8 million, where material outflows included The payout in full for the FFP earnout of £24.9 million. The FCTC earnout of £19.1 million. And a total of £3.8 million covering Hanway, Perform and Buck earnouts. Our reported leverage was 2.06 times underlying EBITDA. However, annualising recent acquisitions to achieve a pro forma leverage shows that we would be within our guidance range. With the CITI and KHT acquisitions, leverage will be above 2x at the year end, but below our absolute peak of 2.5x. We expect to rapidly delever through 2026. As anticipated at the year end, we completed on a US private placement facility in the first half of 2025 for $100 million. As at 30th June 2025, the group had total undrawn funds available from banking facilities of £123 million. And finally, a return on invested capital. We delivered a return on investment of 13% in the last 12 months. This was an improvement of 40 basis points from the position at the end of 2024, and this continues to be significantly above our cost of capital. I'm really pleased with this improvement in a period of ongoing acquisition activity. The lifetime value of clients, which represents the revenue that our client relationships will generate in the absence of new business, increased by 4.3%, from 2024 to £2.4 billion. Since IPO, we've reported over a 700% increase from £0.3 billion in 2018 to £2.4 billion today. To conclude, we continue to deliver a solid and resilient set of financials in the second year of our Cosmos era, and on that note, I'll hand back to Nigel. Thank you, Martin. As I've mentioned earlier, next we will cover the macro environment, its effect on the M&A market and take a deeper look at the two divisions. Following which I will discuss two key topics. Firstly, how the growth of capital allocation to alternative assets acts as a tailwind for the group. detailing the positive progress of the City Trust integration and how our ability to solve for banking institutions seeking lighter operating models provides JPC with a competitive advantage. In the wider M&A market, global deal volumes were down 13% in the first half of 2025 when compared with the previous year. This was largely due to the macro environment including trade uncertainty, geopolitical instability and a difficult funding environment. The sentiment has definitely improved in H2 as the financing markets improve. Buyer appetite remains strong as firms face mounting pressures to deploy capital, demonstrated to some degree by the recent interest in JTC. Advisors have backlogs of deals creating a buoyant market In our sector alone, we are aware of close to 10 deals of a good size attracting strong market interest. Given our current financial leverage and recent acquisition activity, we will concentrate on maximising the opportunities presented by City Trust and KHD in the short term. But we will keep a closer eye on the developments in the wider market, where we continue to be viewed as a good counterparty and long-term home for businesses by sellers and advisors alike. The regulatory regimes continue to prove challenging, as I've commented on previously. The propensity to look to impose regulatory fines on organisations for specific client matters, which are often minor in nature, rather than systemic issues, has been unhelpful. At JTC, this current environment has led to increased costs in the risk and compliance teams, greater the need for greater technology spend, and a disproportionate amount of time being demanded on the divisional fee earners. The number of regulatory interactions we've been required to engage with across our growing global platform continues to increase period on period, reflecting the trend of increased scrutiny across the sector as a whole. Regulation can, of course, also act as a tailwind to our industry, however, creating additional demand for our services and providing M&A opportunities as businesses consolidate to share the cost of the regulatory burden. As I mentioned earlier, the divisions have both performed well, although have been faced with slightly different challenges. In PCS, we have had opportunity of pre-completion work ahead of the delivery of City Trust, our largest acquisition state. As mentioned, we have also been successful in our bid for the KHT business and are now following a similar but less complex integration process and expect to complete the transaction following regulatory consents in Q4. Alongside this, the division has benefited from excellent net organic growth of 14.5% and continues to lead its market. In ICS, we have not had the benefit of MA activity in the period and as a result, it has been a consolidation phase we have taken the opportunity to refresh our go-to-market strategy and implement operational and technological enhancements. As indicated earlier, the macro environment has been more challenging. As a result, we were pleased with organic growth performance of 9.2%. This has included the addition of some substantial clients, which will continue to grow and flourish on our watch. Overall, as we look across the group, what is crystal clear is that we have an abundance of opportunities to explore in the second half of the year and beyond. I mentioned earlier that our industry is developed to deal with greater complexity over time, leading to several market participants leaving the sector. In part, this is due to increased burden of regulation and internationalisation, which in turn has led to sector consolidation. This has then been accelerated by the attractive nature of the business model to investors. However, in our view, the core underlying tailwind has been the growth and increase in popularity of alternative assets. This is particularly evident by the retrenchment of banks from the market, where bankable assets alone do not provide the breadth of holistic solutions demanded by ultra-high net worth individuals and families. Similarly, on the institutional side, with a growth of alternatives came the need for new and innovative corporate and fund structure solutions to manage those assets, creating a powerful driver for the industry in the process. As a result, we are operating in a market which has undergone profound structural change. It has expanded, consolidated and become increasingly multifaceted driving demand for sophisticated administration, advisory and governance solutions, all of which are core strengths of JTC. According to the data provider Prequin, today there is around $16 trillion in global capital allocated to alternatives across private equity, real estate, infrastructure, renewables, private debt and hedge strategies. This figure is projected to nearly double to $30 trillion by 2030, growing at 9.5% compound annual growth rate. The growth is driven by both institutional allocators, for example pension funds, sovereign wealth funds and endowments, all of which are supported by JTC's diversified model, and by private capital from ultra-high net worth individuals and family offices. Many of them have a scale and sophistication that means they operate at a quasi-institutional level. JTC facilitates its capital deployment by providing administration for funds, companies and trusts. This places JTC at the intersection of two major flows, institutional capital seeking exposure to higher return liquid strategies and private capital pursuing diversification and intergenerational wealth preservation. From an analysis of our own broker clients, we estimate that around 80% of our revenues are lived structures that are designed for or contain alternative assets. This underscores the group's strategic focus and exposure to these long-term growth trends. If global allocations shift further towards alternatives, demand for sophisticated and scalable administration services like those provided by JTC can be expected to rise significantly. JTC is therefore not merely a professional service provider. We are an enabler of capital allocation in a fast-growing alternatives market. With strong exposure to both institutional and private capital flows, we are positioned to benefit from multi-year tailwinds. We have recently decided to update the names of the divisions to Institutional Capital Services and Private Capital Services, respectively, to better reflect both what we do and this important value driver that is common to both divisions and the vast majority of client types. The alignment between our service offering and the expansion of the Alternatives ecosystem across both institutional and private capital provides a clear, durable and scalable growth trajectory for the business. Now onto the progress of the City Trust integration. The Steelers already have a significant positive impact on our profile. and in particular increased the awareness of the JTC brand in the United States and opened up greater access to very important markets in the Middle East and Asia. The City credentials have been particularly important in this regard and we have experienced excellent collaboration from the Bank with a sense of a true partnership, including the introduction to both potential and established clients, providing new distribution channels for JTC. We are already able to report that we have a clear route to improve the operating model, bringing an accelerated margin enhancement from our previous estimates, made at the time the acquisition was announced. As we indicated in July Trading Update, we are now confident the margin of the business will be 30% plus by the end of 2026, and this acquisition continues to look to be one of our most exciting deals to date. Generally, we have proved ourselves as a reliable counterparty for bank card out deals by concentrating on the priorities of the banks, which are focused on protecting their reputation and the client experience. We now have a track record that places us as the off-taker of choice for deals of this nature, as a lighter operating model is sought. as most recently demonstrated by the subsequent KHT deal. Finally, onto the key takeaways. We've delivered sector-leading performance with strong organic growth and stable margins that reflect our ongoing investment in the global platform. We have established the leading independent provider of trust company services globally and the additions of City Trust and KHT are highly complementary to JTC's existing offering. The growth in capital allocation to alternative assets is a major structural tailwind for the Group and JTC's positions at the intersection of those capital flows ready to capture significant growth opportunity for both divisions. We are progressing well towards achieving our Cosmos Era goal of doubling the business from January 2024 and are highly confident we will be able to do this ahead of schedule before the end of 2027. Looking at the second half of the year, we have a strong new business pipeline and consistent high win rates, giving us good momentum for organic growth in H2. While we will focus on the ongoing integration of Citi and early stages of KHT, we continue to track good opportunities to our M&A pipeline across both divisions and our key target markets. Return on invested capital is expected to continue to strengthen in 2025 with further improvement anticipated in 2026 as we realise the full year contributions from the City Trust and KHT acquisitions, both of which have been acquired at excellent multiples. As always, we will continue to invest the growth, ensuring that our global platform is always scalable and fit for purpose. Ultimately, we continue to concentrate on being the best service provider and less on being the biggest. Once again, we maintain our guidance metrics that define what sustainable success looks like for a business of our nature. So thank you for listening and for your ongoing support. We will now be happy to take your questions. Thank you to Nigel and Martin for the presentation. They're now unmuted, so we'll be happy to take questions. If you'd like to ask a question, can you just use the hand-up feature? I can see a couple there. I think the first one up was Michael Donnelly. So, Michael, we will come to you and unmute you first.

Three from me. Can we take them in turn, please? First one, Nigel, you said the 20% Youth Business Pipeline growth from December to June is suggested, what's the effect of strong growth in the second half or good growth or something like that? Can you just confirm, should we interpret that growth in the second half as being in line with the 10% or 10% plus organic growth in that period?

I think, Michael, the signs are good, right? So it's the fullest pipe we've ever had. I think you've seen slower delivery in particular in the institutional market in terms of bringing clients through to a successful launch and into fee-earning territory. But the signs are really good and it's a very strong pipe. So we're expecting, I think, to be keeping above our 10% plus organic growth metric.

That's great. Thank you. Secondly, the 14.5% organic and private capital services. Can you tell us how much of that you think came from UK Channel Islands? You made up the exact number, but just a few of them. Was it a major contributor or was it just in line with everything else?

I don't think, if the question's around the exposure to migration from one to another, we're not really that exposed to the UK market to a large degree. So what I can tell you is the Jersey's probably the biggest single jurisdiction for migration. in that period, and then we've had some really good wins in Cayman, Singapore, and Dubai as well, but not necessarily as a result of sort of, you know, driven by tax or other considerations. We're just not exposed to that market particularly.

Understood. And then finally, on Clive Watson's cities, both trust businesses, do you think that once they're both completed and vetted in, the amount of revenues exposed to assets under management will be very different from the sort of 15% that I think historically we've been used to that are AUM exposed.

No, the KHT book is actually a time and materials book in any event, so that doesn't change the mix at all. The Citi book, on the other hand, has got AUM elements associated or primarily is AUM, and the way we're dealing with that is we will We will use this year's fees to create, if you like, the minimum for future fees. So we create a floor and then we'll run the clock alongside what we do for these clients and top up accordingly if we believe that's what it is. So in effect, we'll make it, you know, how can I put it, measured by time and materials.

Time and materials. Got it. That's great. Thank you.

Thanks, Michael. That's great. Appreciate your questions. Next, can we unmute Vivek Rajan, please? Thanks, thanks. Thank you for your presentation. I found your results presentation very comprehensive. I don't have any questions, so apologies. I'm going to ask you about the bid situation. Just a simple question. You set different PUSU dates for Hamira and Warbird Pincus. I was just curious about why you've done that. Thanks. No, we didn't set separate different PUSU dates. It's really driven by when the bids were received. So they were just received on different days and therefore the dates are different. Nigel, would it help if I jumped in? It's Stuart from Deutsche. The PC dates are set by the date of the leak announcement. It's as simple as that. And those are two different leak announcements. That's what sets those 28 days. Okay, thanks. Is that process, how are you going to align that process given you've got competing bids then? There is no obligation to align it. Okay, thank you. Thanks for that. Thanks, Stuart. Can we get you James Clark next, please? Great. Thanks, Ox. My first is just on the wider industry and sector. There's obviously, as you know right now, a lot of PE interest in all sorts of assets, both bolt-on and larger platforms. I guess I just wondered, from your perspective, when you take part in these bids and you see PE either out and to compete you on price, or maybe that could be them. I guess I just wondered what we are able to offer to some of these larger businesses privately that drives their interests specifically, i.e. things like are they able to accelerate the margin profile because of greater automation or greater use of AI? Are there any other areas that they're able to really explore that perhaps publicly the publicly listed company it's a bit harder so I guess what really drives their specific interests obviously it's a highly consolidating industry and there's lots of M&A potential but what are they able to deliver do you think by the leader perhaps is harder publicly I have a second question as well which is more on the the margin profile but I'll wait for I think, well, can I just answer it from our perspective? We like and have liked being a listed business, but our industry is dominated by private equity, as you probably, as you're alluding to, and, you know, it's at various levels. So, you know, if I look at it from our perspective currently, it's fair to say that the ability to, you know, we have got balance sheet constraints in a consolidated market, so that is a challenge for us to to work through as a listed business and I think occasionally it's meant that we couldn't compete for good assets over time but we work it through and we find and we always have found very good deals to be done sort of away from and outside of perhaps the normal processes that you go through but clearly there wouldn't be the same balance sheet constraints in the business as a whole. In terms of what they can do that we couldn't do ourselves. I think it's debatable. I think there is a little bit of... There can be a sense that we're in sort of period-to-period sprints as a listed business, which you may not be in quite the same place with a longer-term view that may be taken by a private equity house, particularly to, if you like, just really take time to sort of... pit stop for a little bit and work out where it is you know you want to be doing in in particular areas technology you alluded to could be one of those so there's obviously pros and cons with both but there's definitely advantage advantages for us of being the only listed business in our space but occasionally works with a disadvantage for us as well so i hope that answers the question That does. Thank you. That's very helpful. And then my second question is just on the additional costs to do with compliance and risk management spending centrally and the regulatory costs headwind. I think you flagged as 50 bits headwind in the first half. Should we expect that to heighten the spending to kind of continue, and I guess is it accelerating today versus a year ago? And then to follow up to that would be, the upper end of your margin has been 38%. Is that now not really achievable because you've got this sort of, I guess, headwind structurally to your margin? And then I think this is a big question here, but you also said that you could manage that margin headwind through scales. I'd be interested to know how you do that and why you wouldn't pass it on through price. Happy to pick that up. I think it's too early to say whether the risk and compliance or risk and regulation environment we work in is necessarily always going to be a drag on margin as Korea is today. But just to answer your question about sort of regulatory interactions which we track, we've gone from 46 in 2022, 58 in 2023, 76 in 2024, expecting 90 plus this year. So I think the idea of now in fairness we will have We're probably regulated in more ways in more places than we were initially. But just to give you an idea of the burden and that there was permanently some sort of regulatory interaction required. More generally, I think we were quite pleased with the MoneyVal visits to Jersey and Guernsey, which obviously are quite big jurisdictions for us, that seemed to go reasonably well. And we had a very good meeting with... a group of international finance centres. I think we met five or six of them together in a forum around the beginning of the year. So having said that, you know, we've seen a little bit more interest in the regulatory environment from both the Netherlands and Luxembourg in the last sort of six months or so. So it's, you know, there's sort of one area you feel is feeling it's going quite well and then you look at interest from another area. But I wouldn't necessarily say that it means that 38% isn't doable. I just think, you know, there are different ingredients and different times, and there's other things we're doing all the time. I mean, the margin's quite complicated. I'm sure, as you know, growth can affect your margin. Tech investment can affect your margin in the short term with a view to being long-term. But I wouldn't say it's impossible for us to get to 38%, but it's probably a little bit more difficult than it was when we set the 33% to 38%. And then in terms of how we might address that, I think there's digital and efficiency are all things I'm thinking of. Scale is part of it. Technology is part of it. And frankly, pricing could be part of it as well. So I hope that's helpful. Larry, thanks very much. Thanks, James. We don't have any further hands up. So unless anyone wants to jump in quickly, I think we are through most of our time anyway. Great. Well, thank you very much to Nigel and Martin and all who have attended today. I hope you enjoyed the presentation, and the presentation will be on our website later today also. Many thanks. Goodbye.