Kemira Oyj Ord

and welcome to Kenira's Q3 earnings webcast. My name is Kiira Fröberi, and I'm the head of investor relations at Kenira. We report our Q3 interim reportability in the weekend market environment. Here with me today, I have our president, CEO, Antti Salminen, and our CFO, Rika Streen. our group level strategy, as well as the outlook. After that, Petri will discuss the business performance, and we'll also share some more details on the end of the presentation, before the Q&A. Antti will also give a short introduction to our new CFO, Thomas Makipeska. But now, Antti, please, the test is yours.

Thank you, Kiira, and welcome on my behalf as well. So happy to report here on our strong profitability in weekend market development. And market indeed has been quite stubbornly. We saw that first already in the beginning of the year or at the end of the previous year, hitting the performance of packaging and hygiene solutions business unit impact from the weekend market. The consumers are not consuming. Trade is not flowing globally, so less packaging material is consumed, thus less demand. go into the production of packaging. We mentioned that we see now the end of the weaker economy trickling up the value chain to the pulp for our customers in that area. And now it's visible in Q3 clearly. We have seen a lot of prolonged maintenance that is hitting the fiber essentials unit. and and we've also now started to see the kind of prolonged slow global economy impacting the over industrial activity who run race at any industrial segment especially here translated into less water consumption by industry and fast consumption of our water treatment chemicals in the industrial side of our water business so all these have led to the situation where basically the revenues declined 5% in terms of organic, quite a significant amount of us. We have significant business units. Now in Q3 was hitting all of three of our business units. Nevertheless, we keep the outlook on change as we changed in the Q2. But the good news is that profitability, we maintained the 20% operability. Maybe that performance, which I think kind of comparing to the chemical industry in Europe, comparing to the looking at the invent that we operate in and the decline top line is a good performance. And I'm really thankful for the whole organ for pulling it together. maintained high profitability in backbone of our business, i.e. water solutions unit, but we managed to improve also the profitability in the package and hygiene solutions. Coming both from cost management program or profitability improvement program that we launched in the spring for the package and hygiene solutions. Now, Even if the markets are soft, we continue to invest into our strategy, and the megatrends that are supporting the strategy stay intact. So long-term viability. and growth potential of the fiber economy and the need for clean water. We continue to invest into the execution of strategy, also continue to have a strong balance sheet which enables that. And I will talk later a little bit more about a couple of steps in terms of continuing the strategy execution. The revenues were weak in Q3. ULR had a significant impact, but overall the demand also was weaker. We repeat the unit, so basically this is overall decline in demand that is affecting the top line here. Here we saw decline in volume, as I mentioned, but price is stable, so that is the kind of good news. Sequentially, sales volumes actually increased from Q2. That is mainly driven by the water solutions unit, and Petri will talk more about it later. We saw some decline in sales price. Then, looking at the profitability, which I mentioned, it's fair to say it's on good level. So the 20% of EBITDA margin, we actually are very close to all-time high for Chimera. So really good performance in terms of profitability. Profitability remains strong in water solutions, especially the urban, resilient, steady, profitable backbone of our business. But we managed to improve in packaging and hygiene solutions significantly. The profitability of fiber as a consequence of the clearly declining volumes from the market. This kind of weakness of the market and the weaker demand, of course, puts a lot of pressure on us to focus on profitability improvement, the operational excellence, cost containment, so that we can continue to operate on a good, healthy profitability level. Those actions we have defined, but as we communicated this morning, bring clear program there. And the bottom line, well with that program and some of it are visible in the good which also was helped by the favorable product mix in this quarter. Now we are starting to assess the operating model that we have in packaging and high chain solution and the aim there is to differentiate the service level so that we can better serve key customers that we have introduced faster new innovations to the marketplace and provide better service for our key customers and at the same time optimize cost to serve levels for the more tax on our customer base. We'll start and the impacts of that will be visible in 27. So no impact expected for the last quarter of this year. The earnings came out at 38% per share. And oops, here. As I mentioned, we continue to into our strategy execution trends are there and we are in a really good position to also maybe capitalize on the bigger market environment because big part of our strategy is based on. There's A couple of key cornerstones for our strategy, and I will touch three of them here when I talk about the strategy execution. So first of all, growth significantly in the water business. And there are two subdomains which are really important for this. Micropollutant removal, pharmaceuticals and so forth, microplastic subsegment of the water market, which is developing as we speak. And we have a clear strategy on how do we enter that market. The other part which we have been relatively weak historically is the water services, and that's also water faster than the base business. And we have taken now clear steps regarding entering both of these growth market areas. And then we'll talk a little bit about our kind of progress with renewable chemistry. During Q3, we announced the investment into our site in Helsingborg for reactivate action facility for activated carbon. That is the first activation facility in the whole Nordic market. to enter via the activated carbon service this micropollutant removal. Because activated carbon is the kind of a well-tested pre-invent method for capturing micropollutants and PFAS from raw waters for drinking water. And that's a key part of our work there. but need to amend that with other more specific innovative technologies. So there, CUSP AI, K2K-based startup is of key importance. So we started in June a joint development project to develop new-to-the-world type of adsorbent materials, and we are progressing very well. needs to come up with completely new solutions, very targeted solutions for beef. So these both are on the kind of micro pollutant removal area of the water. Then our earlier announced joint venture, the world leader in supporting us with development of commercial. We announced this JV. We are currently working on the engineering phases ongoing. looking at different engineering options for manufacturing site itself. There is some delay, so unlike we earlier informed that the production would be up and running by the end of 27, it's rather on the side of 28 that we now plan to be up and running. Eight, we have industrial-level volumes available from our industry. several industrial scale test trials with our customers, both in water solutions area and in packaging and hygiene. And many of these application tests actually look very from when we actually have the joint venture manufacturing up and running. We have existing customer base already for those solutions. And then as mentioned, Second area within the water service is one of our key growths is the entry to the, we announced this morning that we closed the transaction on acquiring water engineering United States of America. That's our first significant water service. Water engineering is a water service specialist expertise in boiler and cooling power water treatment, as well as wastewater treatment in industrial facilities, whether it's manufacturing and healthcare industry. They're based out of Nebraska, and they have built a really strong presence in the middle space in U.S., grown quite quickly. This provides us a good platform for future growth, both organically, but also inorganically, because their growth method has largely been a kind of programmatic bolt on an M&A path, and continue growing in that business. Business itself, as I said, the rationale entering that is that it is far growing market than the base water treatment market. Plus it is asset light in terms of BS model. So there's not a consequent significant capex going into maintenance and improvement and production facilities. So our existing product to serve these customers. So there's good cross-selling opportunities with this acquisition. The expected pro forma revenue of the company is north of 60 million US dollars and the purchase as we have communicated was four dollars. So I warmly welcome all the colleagues from the water engineer to the big global Chemera family. I think we will have a great few together. Now then, we have introduced a new slide here. We should be providing a bit more transparency and trackability in terms of our long-term financial targets. Now, it is very clear that we are disappointed with the... in terms of organic growth, short-term on average to grow more than 4% organically a year. Now, clearly the markets have proven to be much softer than we anticipated when we set out this target and communicated in the CMD a year ago. But I still believe that long-term this growth potential is there as the mega, ...growing new domains within the water, so it will provide us accelerators, but clearly the start on that journey has been... slower than we anticipated. Operative EBITDA, we are operating comfortably with the 18 to 21 EBITDA performance range that we communicated as a target and also in terms of return on capital target that we set. That said, of course, the kind of declining trend on both of these is not satisfactory, and we are having diligent actions and programs in place and making sure that we hit these long-term targets as we progress with our strategy. Then the outlook for the rest of the year remains unchanged, so no reason to comment that further, and we will comment in more detail the business-specific performance and other financial ratios. Petri, the floor is yours.

Thank you, Antti. So I'll do, as Antti said, I'll start with a sort of a key point, and I think really Our ability to defend the profitability as well as the PHS business unit profitability improvement are indeed the key in this report. And as I said, acquisition is an important step. So let's – top line is almost an – development is almost an exact repeat from Q2. Forty million decline driven by effect changes, and again, mostly it's the U.S. dollar that has continued to weaken year and year. Organic growth also was negative in Q2. We have been able to maintain prices well, again, considering the weak market environment. Variable costs have been stable throughout the year, so the change is in essence zero. Also, what I think that in essence, we have been able to kill inflation. So the fixed cost is zero. Again, we all know the salary inflation ongoing. There's an inflation in many other areas of the way, how we have been able to defend profitability. This is very good. obviously not be happy about the top line development or the absolute level of profit generated. Fact from the variable code and is really flat. And as you can see, almost for the last four quarters, it has been pretty much flat. So now the force is really much more right to period between 21 and 23, when really a lot of our profitability was how can we defend against inflation, how we are coping with inflation and how we are passing the inflatory raw material. Now it's really about volume. Again, I'll start business unit comments with water solutions. So, excluding the FX impact decline against the pretty strong last compare. You notice that... In the comparison period, we had vibrant organic growth, so it was a stronger comparison period. The water treatment markets. Antti already mentioned that the urban market continues to be really strong. And even in this world, the business unit is declining. Urban market is stable, and it continues up. EMEA is more than offsetting the small decline in America's urban market. Then the weakness was on the there, like Antti was talking about. It's both the industrial activity, the weakness in it, But it's also the fact that we have this one falling customer compared to a year ago. So initially, from Q2 to Q3, both volumes and revenues increased despite less FX impact. Very strong at 23.1%, very close to last year's level. Packaging and hygiene solution. So challenging market continued or recovered. There's a lot of underlying or behind the factor impacting the business unit. But I think the key point is it wasn't actually getting any worse in Q3. Volumes, essence, flat, and sequent even increased modestly, remodestly. The market looked a bit more post-Americas, and there was positive development in APAC as well. However, weakness continued in Europe. In a map of our customers' reports yesterday, which were sort of indicating that. Year in year, we saw some price decline, but sequentially prices were flat. 13.6%. which is actually quite a sequential improvement below 10% in Q2. This was driven by cost containment topics, like Antti was talking about in Q3. So that helped there as well. And also, I'd like to remind that we have an extended maintenance in one of our key facilities in China, In Q2, Q2 results even more. Regionally, both Americas and America are at 15% or above, so diluting the overall business unit margin. And continue those profitability improvements until we talk to business partners business model change that we will be implementing now. And, again, this implementation will take well through to the next year. Market was weak. And we updated business assumptions. in Q2, and then we highlighted that we are a CPAP industry, and indeed, this is what happened. So the market, the softness was really driven by the Nordics softness here. Market related downtime to our customers. Volumes declined here and sequentially. was prices were higher on year. However, this area we did see pressure on variable cost help the market either. We do have some base goals in our portfolio, caustic soda, sulfuric acid. And some of the global market price of these products were also declined that depressed profitability more. Now I move to balance sheet. Again, not a whole change in our balance sheet. Exactly year-end level and approximately at the same level as in June of 2025. The third quarter, which is noteworthy, is that we implemented or started our share buyback program to buy back almost 40 million of our shares during the quarter. A reminder, this program, when it was approved and initiated, it set a maximum of 5 million shares that we will buy back or 100 million. current level, which is of course limited by our daily liquidity, we will be hitting the end of the program around the year, and so maybe in December, maybe so that at the current level looks like. And Antti already showed the trend reports on return on capital, and I and regarding our fee markets. So, yes, the lower EBIT, which is the result of the weaker market impacting our capital efficiency. Cash flow improvement. We did have a networking capital decline. I think I mentioned in Q2 that we had a little bit of a buildup in networking capital during Q3. I'd like to remind that typically our cash flow is more weighted in half of the year, particularly Q4, as you can see from the figures which we have here on the quarterly breakdown. So I hope to expect to see that sort of a seasonal pattern this year as well. to our capex guidance. We expect our capex to increase over last year. So again, you do the math, you'll see that the capex will increase significantly from the quarterly run rate. With that, I'll stop. Antti will be able to announce my successor. So, I'm today ready to go. Thank you.

And is it okay if I stay here for the Q&A? Yes, very good. Okay. So, indeed, a happy day for both of us, probably, that we have now. Tuomas Mäkipeska will start later some day in May. Our CFO, Tuomas, has a strong background both in terms of business unit leadership and of CFO position with YEE, the Finnish construction company. brings us plenty of experience and good energy as well. So I warmly welcome Tuoma Koova to working with him in this field.

And now I think it's time for the Q&A. And you can ask your questions to us through the So maybe we'll start then to take the questions. So operator, please go ahead.

If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key 6 on your telephone keypad. Please go ahead.

Hello. Good morning and thanks for taking three questions and I would like to ask them one by one. Auntie, the first question is for you. It's about the strategy. After the acquisition of water engineering, will you continue with acquisitions with a similar size? And the reason I'm asking is that you are your target mixed deals with an enterprise value of 200 to 250 million euro, which enables you to finance the deals from your cash flow clearly below that price tag.

Well, first of all, what I have communicated when I've indicated the size kind of target, mostly small and mid-sized targets, because that's the way to build the growth in M&A. And as you mentioned, I've just indicatively given that they have to be below 250 to qualify for this. 150 is below 250. pipeline of different targets which we are working on and yes, we will of course tell about them when the time comes.

For Petri, regarding the packaging and hydrogen solutions business, you mentioned the reasons for the strong earnings increase year-over-year, sales mix, and cost savings. Can you provide more color on that segment, and where did the mixed effect come from?

I won't specifically give out product line and product line profitability. I'll shy away from giving exact. And I think it's also what you compare against. So please don't compare to Q2 because bottom was sort of... I would say it was arbitrary too low. The maintenance break in China actually impacted the city quite a fair amount. But if we sort of say that the last QR numbers of average is somewhere between 11% and 12% EBITDA, there's an equal split between the three areas of mix and some market recovery, particularly in North America, and then so cost-saving actions. Okay. And of course...

financials, which was below market expectation. I wonder, do you have also cost savings here? And to last year, was there any, so that we should be aware that last year's high margin in financials, especially for Q4, It's not a good proxy for this year.

I don't think that there was any issue in 2024 in fiber. There was over-earning, particularly in the high electricity cost years and high caustic price years, 2021, 2022. but really not throughout the year. Now, memory is badly in terms of individual quarters, but there tends to be a bit of a seasonal pattern. Electricity costs are higher during the winter, and I can see that there is a link of the costs. So we tend to have a some longer terms of profitability for our pricing of our electricity-dependent products, mostly chlorate. Martin, I encourage you to rather look at sort of a trend line and through the year and not individual quarters, because in each quarter there can be some Some sort of one-off impact, cost item came through, may impact the cost, a margin of a business unit point this way or that way. So I'd rather encourage you to look at the trend. So they are the same customers, particularly in fiber. this solid track record of many customers. And so I encourage you to look over the longer period of time, not individual quarters.

On that a bit, so you referred to the kind of shortfall of fiber essential compared to expectations. So maybe we were not clear enough in Q2 when we communicated the expectations to be lowered because we already saw customers, especially in Nordics, about take downtime at their pulp mills. So that translated now to weaker performance in our fiber essences. We are in Q3 as we expected already in Q2. Yes.

But the downtimes are now over.

talk to us about that, what are the customers and what they announced. So I'll leave it to that. Yeah.

And sometimes we know a little bit more than our customers openly communicate. So that's why we need to be mindful that we respect and talk.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Martin. Let's now take the next question, please.

The next question comes from Ansi Rousey from SB. Please go ahead.

Yes, hi, Olande. Thank you for the presentation. I continue on. So seasonality there has changed a bit last year. So how should we think about it now going in? and also on Q4 last year as a compact or worth of reminding.

Thank you. If I start from the seasonality, so if you look at the water solutions as such, I don't think there's a major change in the typical sea. That remains, so environmental phenomena that impact the demand of water chemicals is not changing and thus typically uh first and last quarter are the weakest and the mid quarters are the strongest in that remember what we have communicated it's now we have this one big thing customer within the water solutions whose demand has quarter to quarter comparison quite significant impacts than than we have expected and that can then distort what we kind of reported typical season pattern. But the underlying water treatment business, the seasonality is as it is because climate is changing. It has not changed dramatically in that short period.

Okay, got it. Thanks. Packaging and height changement and this change in mix So how would you describe the current mix in Q3 like you mentioned? Is it like normal now or maybe a bit different?

Yes, well, again, and as Petri said earlier, so you should not be in isolation because there will always be fluctuation in terms of demand, but in terms of product mix as well. Certain products are more profitable than others for us, and there might be this fluctuation for quarters. Now, the third quarter happened to be very positive in terms of mix for us, and us order pattern that kind of a ravel out week by week we even if we would want to be on the q4

Yeah. So, Anssi, maybe addressing your question a bit differently. The profit improvement need is nowhere in BHS. It's a business unit at all. That's what we are now. And this will actually take, like I said, well into next year. We are implementing it. So, actually, it's a fairly fundamental. If I continue to drive that to get get the business unit property sustainably to the level where it actually ought to be. So don't take that Q2 degree improvement and put a linear stick on it and expect that to continue bluntly.

Okay, that's clear. Thank you. That's all for me.

Thank you, Anssi. Let's now then take the next question, please.

The next question comes from . Please go ahead.

Hi. I was thinking, do you expect lower to have a positive effect in Q4 in the cost side for you? Already something in Q3 may be potentially affecting in a positive factor in your hygiene solutions resulting Q3.

I showed the raw material development year and year, and it was a flat line, so I didn't even – as a group, it looks pretty flat. But there are individual areas where we have cost pressures, and we have some cost pressures. In some instances, we have some areas in our fiber I mentioned. mentioned some that was already visible in their sort of as we talk about it so consequently there was perhaps a slight improvement on variable cost environment in PHS but again these are small I think really the focus is much on what can we do and how can we draw more volume.

Thank you. A different question, if I may. On water engineering, which they have been doing in the past, can you comment on that? Can you kind of give us an idea of how much capital this platform could deploy going forward?

We will not put on how much capital, but so typically they have done several of these kind of small acquisitions, and that's kind of what we plan to do. Of course, with our bigger muscle, we can also then look at bigger targets to add on to that being thus far doing.

I think it's a little logical to say that Antti described water engineering as a platform. So it is a platform to continue on off deals and maybe increase the size which they have 10 million revenue type of deals, even smaller, some smaller deals. So maybe increase that a little bit. It's an effort you can get a bit more meaningful impact. But this platform wouldn't be something hugely bigger on top of this. That's not the idea.

Thanks.

Thank you. Let's now take the next question, please.

The next question comes from Jamie Sandvall from Nordea. Please go ahead.

Thanks. A couple of questions also from my side. You mentioned that uncertainty in the industrial side of the potential solution. So could you give any more color as to which sectors are, you know, most affected and does this have any impact you know, on your mix.

Well, like if you look at the industrial water, industrial is serving all the fossil that use water, which is basically all the industries. So in a sense, kind of thinking which industry is exact or kind of in decline than some other, it's impossible. Really, as I started my career role, and then the less global trade that happens. We both are kind of not only impacting the packaging and hygiene solutions, but really all the industries, especially in EMEA. We all see it. And then when the industries run with lower utilization rates, they continue. consume less water and impacted and that impact typically is gradual because you have some industry a bit better than others and they are we don't see it in industrial water treatment if there's some short-term notes in the in the in the economy but when when it's this kind of hunger kind of degrade starts to be visible for the water and chemicals demand as well and There's no particular step from Q2 to Q3, so you should really get a long continuum of what happens to the economy, especially here in Europe.

Maybe it helps if a lot of these industrial clusters we actually don't go to address direct, so we go through distributors. So these are for us smallish, or the end customer is so small for us that we cover the urban customers, the municipal customers, we cover them all direct. But this is an indirect channel, and as I said, that's why it gets a little bit diluted, the impact of what happens at sort of a... Okay, thanks.

Maybe still digging into the package topics. and the improvement, let's say, potential for 26. You mentioned that, you know, Eric and Nimi are at 15 or at 26, up to its, you know, mid-teens levels on, let's say, run rate on profitability.

Well, we are working as hard as we can to prove it as much as we can.

Yes. Yeah, so clearly we're not the run rate of profitability in BHS through 2025. So, yes, we want to improve, and there are efforts going towards the mid-teens range, and when we will get there, we're not giving an exact guidance. It also depends what happens in the market, and if yes, when it will happen.

Last question from me. Given that we are currently in heavy pressure on price from the companies.

Well, it's obvious that kind of a situation leads to more pressure, but our customers are quite really professional cycle, they are tough negotiators. So we have all the pressure on our prices. It is a bit more hard for us in the kind of environment when you have seen, you know, savings programs of our customers. But as I mentioned, I think in the webcast as well, our effort around to kind of collaboration efforts where we look together how can we help to save more so that it's not about the the per ton of the chemicals but our application and solution which is healthy materials less energy and so forth so so it's also an opportunity if even if there is some more pressure on the pricing but it's also an opportunity because we have some of these solutions for instance some of our digital services are exactly aimed for this kind of a improvements in the customer's processes, both, of course, but also a really good opportunity to help our customers.

Okay. Thanks. That's all from me.

Thank you, Joni.

The next question comes from Tommy Raylo from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Tommy from B&B Carnegie. First question, Fiber, do you expect or are you initiating actions on the Fiber side now that you see the impact of getting us in PH?

We're of course all the time looking at the profitability of the business units. It's good to remember with the Fiber that It is slower turning bolt. We have relatively lean organization. It's not that easy to look at the kind of organizational model, and our cost to serve is very low because we have this kind of typically lightly connected supply to our customers. It's a slower turning ship and new potential actions. And you need really kind of a prolonged downturn from the customer side in order to start some kind of actions on that business unit. But obviously, we are all the time looking at with a good profit.

Just to follow up, if it's slower, can it also be deeper? How do you see that kind of if it's slower? but does it also decline more, or does it work if we were to assume a longer, prolonged thickness?

Yeah, that's a really complex question, and of course, you should, again, understand kind of what is happening at global pulp markets. But the global world is here actually very important. So the pulp markets are global and our customers are not only kind of playing on the geographies where they produce, but depends on how China economy will develop and so forth. So it's kind of a complex question to answer and difficult to say whether it would be any deeper of the pulp and the packaging. So basically you can't really separate the timing. It's the same. So I think it's an impossible question to answer.

But in a sense, it's to do your self-help actions than it is at the...

Tommy, the core structures are quite different because we have a few small customers on fiber essentials, very small sort of sales and application team, whereas the packaging hygiene solution, a lot more customers. There's a lot more applications. There's a lot of applications. So the mix, when you talk of fixed cost, there's a mix between manufacturing and what we call business overhead, where we lump both the sales and application and technical support people together. It's a difference. So there's a fairly little, whereas there's a lot more in BH. And with that, of course, you can play with. And that way we are implementing this business, supporting our customers with this. Not only the technical support people, the application people, the sales people, but also the support organization that is managing the whole support.

Thanks for the call. The second question, just... starting the fourth quarter. Have you seen any kind of change? Do we continue on a similar kind of situation as in the third quarter, kind of negatives, any third quarter negatives?

Tommy, you know our practices. We never comment on the ongoing quarters, and you almost always try.

All right.

Thank you, Tommy. Let's take the next question, please.

The next question comes from Andrew Noel from Chemicalesk.

Hi. Hi, everyone. After taking my questions, I've got two. I wanted to ask about PFAS and how you see that developing, and I seem to think that when it comes properly, it will come quickly and big, if you see what I mean. So I'm wondering about your investment plans. You see Heltenberg is sort of 10 million. Are you going to be ahead of this, or how do you see that PFAS market growing in terms of timing, and whether you're going to sort of scale up whether you can scale up and what, you know, have you done a focus on what perhaps you may need to do in the market when it does sort of gather a bit more momentum? That's the first question. And one on valuation in some other hats, but, you know, Some chemical distributors are talking about durations coming down. I just wondered, you know, as I've been a bit worried about the outlook and so on, I just wondered what you are seeing in your particular sector.

Thank you. I'll take the first question and let Petri go. The PFAS removal market indeed is a really interesting market, which is developing as we speak. and a kind of a new market there's a lot of unknowns we have really stated that we will be playing that market and it's also interesting from the dominant solution that will be used by our customers for removing of PFAS. So it will always be a combination of the good old warhorse, the activated carbon, so other technologies are needed. Some of them are chemical, some of them are non-chemical. And it's this combination within which we need to find our playthings. So which parts of that we play. And we have really started our So we purchased a small, actually kind of we have filled it up very nicely and it's working well as a first step. We have announced now the investment in Helsingborg for reactivation. So those are all the small steps that we are taking. into the market as it continues to bigger steps. But that all depends on how the market develops and what we can do there. But we are really kind of determined about that. But then also, as I said, I mean, this will not be enough. So we are working with different external partners and our research and innovation partners more specific solutions, which will be complementing the activated carbon on this farm. So we are serious about the market will grow. And as you say, some are expecting it to explode. Some are expecting it to have a kind of a more linear. We are taking our steps according to our strategy. We have, I think, a very clear plan to enter it. And our benefit on that will be that we are serving already all polymer solutions. So basically the customers. So whatever the new prevailing technologies will be, we are in a really good position to globalize them and capitalize on that market presence that we have.

I think the valuation question is also a fair and good question. Very few sellers would have that their expectations of multiples are coming down. But when you look at what's going on in the market, there's numbers that are holding towards their maturity. So clearly there is still a discrepancy on valuations and maybe the seller expects higher. I think in general at least I wouldn't say that they are going up anymore. So clearly we've sort of maybe moderated from the... zero-cost financing that years ago in that sense. Perhaps you're right that there is an expectation and realization of some moderation on the valuations. And, of course, this would be welcome very much because some of the things we've been sitting on the sidelines because we did not make the ends meet.

Thank you.

Thanks very much.

Thank you. I think we start to actually run out of time here with our webcast. So webcast question formula. They were related to the packaging and hygiene solution and profitability improvement program. And they were covered in the other question. So we don't need to take them now here. But participants for the active participation and good questions. And as a reminder, we will have our financial statements bulletin on February 12th. That's already next year. And possible on meetings tomorrow. During the next week, we will be actively on the road. And, of course, have a great day, everyone, as well as a great weekend. Thank you so much.

Thank you.