Pacific Basin Shipping Limited

Welcome to today's Pacific Basin 2025 First Quarter Trading Update conference call. I am pleased to present Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Martin Frugard. For the first part of this call, all participants will be in listen-only mode, and afterwards there will be a question and answer session. Mr. Frugard, please begin. Thank you very much.

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for attending Pacific Basin's First Quarter Trading Update call. My name is Martin Forgoff, CEO of Pacific Basin. I trust you have received our presentation, which I will now run through to highlight key points before moving on to the Q&A session. Please turn to slide three. In the first quarter of 2025, head-sized and supermax market freight rates followed their seasonal patterns, and market activity reduced leading up to the Lunar New Year at the end of January, after which trade rates rebounded as activity picked up in February. Market spot rates for Hedgesize and Supermax vessels averaged 8,000 and 7,900 net per day, respectively, representing a decrease of 24% and 36% compared to the same period in 2024. The Baltic Exchange Forward Freight Agreement average head-to-size rate for the remainder of 2025 is 9,120 NIT per day, and the average supermax FFA rate is 9,860 NIT per day. Please turn to slide four. In the first quarter of 2025, the global minor bulk loadings were approximately 2% higher compared to the same period last year. This growth was driven by notable increases in the loading of bauxite, cement, and clinker. Imports of bauxite from Guinea into China continued to be strong, and China's steel production export increased in the first quarter. In the same period, global grain loadings decreased by 16% year-on-year, impacted by reduced Chinese demand following an increase in domestic supply of corn and wheat amid rising trade frictions. Harvest delay in Brazil slowed its grain exports, but the country is projected to achieve a record crop in 2025 with significant increase in soybean production. On the other hand, United States saw an 11% year-on-year increase in grain loadings as the anticipated tariff triggered a rush to import more soybean from the U.S. Global coal loadings dropped 5% year-on-year in the first quarter. This reduction was driven by an 11% drop in seaborne coal volumes to China, owing to large stockpiles and increased supply from domestic sources and from Mongolia. Similar coal volumes to India reduced by 6% due to slower manufacturing activity and increased domestic coal production. However, the decline was partly offset by increased coal imports into other Asian countries such as Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Bangladesh. Global iron ore loadings in the period declined by 7% year-on-year, primarily due to reduced Australian iron ore loadings caused by disruptions from consecutive cyclones in January and February. Iron ore loadings for China declined by 9%, reflecting weak domestic demand for steel and mounting trade tensions. However, we saw iron ore volumes increase in March, and we expect support from post-disruption catch-up in Australia and potential stimulus from China to address the impact of tariffs. Please turn to slide five. In the first quarter of 2025, our core business achieved average handy size and supermax daily time chart equivalent earnings, of 10,940 and 12,210 per day respectively. This represents a year and year decrease of 1% and 10% respectively. For the second quarter of 2025, we have covered 77% and 95% of committed vessel stays for our Hattie-sized and Supermax core fleet at 11,390 and 12,400 per day, respectively. These rates are currently higher than market spot rates and Baltic Exchange FFA rates, which stands at 9,110 and 9,870 net per day. Our cash break-even level for owned, handy-sized, and supermax vessels are 5,780 and 6,200, respectively, which includes G&A, finance, cost, and OPEX. These levels ensure our ability to generate a positive cash flow going forward. For the second half of the year, we have covered 25% and 37% of committed vessel stays for our handy-sized and supermax core fleet at 10,150 and 12,090 per day, respectively. Please turn to slide six. In the first quarter of 2025, we outperformed the handy size and supermax spot market indices by 2,940 and 4,380 per day, respectively, as we covered the period in anticipation of seasonal weaknesses, especially around Lunar New Year, when freight rates typically soften. Our operating activity generated a daily average margin of $830 per day over 6,950 operating days in the first quarter, representing increase of 63% and 4% year-on-year, respectively. Please turn to slide eight. The near-term bulk market demand outlook is clouded by uncertainties from increasing trade and geopolitical tensions. However, ongoing disruption in the Red Sea and potential shifts in the trade flows could provide some support to ton-mile demand. Miter ball continues to see broad-based increases in projected volumes driven by manganese ore, bauxite, and fertilizers. However, demand for construction materials such as cement and steel products remain weak, hinging on global economic development, which is expected to remain uncertain in the near term. I know demand is projected to be under pressure due to reduce Chinese domestic demand and increased trade frictions, which have prompted plans to again curb steel output, although we have recently seen an increase in Chinese steel export. Coal demand in major importing countries such as China and India is expected to decline due to increased supply from domestic production and Mongolia overland, while the transition towards renewable energy in Europe and some Asian countries continues to impact global coal demand. We expect some support to come from ASEAN countries such as Vietnam and Malaysia, while anticipate stimulus in China, to counteract the impact of tariffs could potentially boost demand for coal. Brazil is projected to achieve a record grain crop yield in 2025, and China is expected to shift its grain import from the US to Brazil due to intensified trade tensions, which translate into more ton mile. Please turn to slide nine. In 2025, global net fleet growth is projected to outpace demand growth. Global dry bulk and minor bulk fleets are estimated to grow 3% and 4.5% in 2025, respectively. This growth is driven by an increase in new building deliveries, particularly in the handy-sized and supermax segment, which is estimated to account for around 5% of combined fleet growth in 2025, while minor bulk fleet scrapping is forecasted to be only 0.5% of the fleet. However, the long-term supply fundamentals remain favorable, with the total dry bulk order book and the combined handy size and supermax order book both currently standing at around 10% only, while new building ordering activity recorded a 90% year-on-year decrease in the first quarter. New orders continue to be constrained by limited yacht capacity and uncertainties around decarbonization and the proposed U.S. port fees on Chinese-built ships. Meanwhile, the scrapping pool continued to expand, giving limited scrapping and aging fleet with heavy size and supermax vessels over 20 years old, representing 14% and 12% of the existing fleet, which is larger than the current order book, pointed to a foundation for long-term structural supply shortage, which is likely to be accelerated by decarbonization regulation in shipping. In addition, about one third of the minor ball fleet was delivered between 2009 and 2012, and their replacement will be required in the next decade. Please turn to slide 10. The situation in the Red Sea remained volatile as earlier ceasefire attempts unraveled and disruptions in the region continued. This highlights just how fragile truces of geopolitical tensions can be and their continuous impact on shipping, which in this case has resulted in increased ton miles as shipping companies have been rerouting vessels around South Africa. We continue to monitor these situations closely. Although the dryball sector is less impacted compared to other shipping sectors, there could be further pressure on dryball ton miles demand if transit through the Suez Canal normalize, which remained uncertain at the moment. Please turn to slide 11. Growing protectionism and geopolitical conflicts around the world bring uncertainties for bulk shipping and the global economy, but they may also present opportunities depending on market and government responses. Global commodity demand is expected to remain steady in 2025. Broad base, minor bulk and grain volumes could potentially offset the impact of softening demand for iron ore and coal due to high stockpiles and the weak property market in China. Further, stimulus in China is expected to meet its economic growth target of around 5% amidst rising challenges and to counteract the potential impact of tariffs. While tariffs and other protectionism measures, such as the proposed U.S. port fees, could suppress trade volumes, drive up inflation, and hinder global economic growth, the versatility of the dry bulk trade could potentially lead to an increase in ton-mile demand as trade flows shift, resulting in longer voyages and increased congestion, providing some support to the dry bulk freight market. Uncertainties around trade, decarbonization, and U.S. policy has dampened the interest for new building orders, and this continues to support supply fundamentals in the longer term, despite near-term pressure from new deliveries pushing estimated minor bulk net fleet growth of 4.5% above estimated demand of 1% in 2025. However, the current total dry bulk order book of around 10% and limited new building orders Coupled with the expected mid-term decarbonization measures from the IMO, which are likely to result in speed reduction and increase in fleet inefficiencies and scrapping, provide the basis for favorable long-term supply fundamentals. We are cautious about the development and uncertainty in the global market, but we believe our experience and customer focused global organization, our financial strength and the versatility of our business position as well to navigate these uncertain times and take advantage of the rising opportunities. Please turn to slide 13. A core fleet in the major It's the beta contributor of our profit, and it consists of 123 handy-sized and supermassive vessels, of which over 70% are Japanese-built. Our strategy is to grow and renew our fleet. We maintain a disciplined approach, especially amidst uncertainties in the market and the prevailing vessel prices. In the first quarter of 2025, we continued to add larger and younger vessels to our own fleet by exercising purchase options for two long-term chartered Japanese-built handy-sized vessels. We also sold and delivered three older, smaller handy-sized vessels with an average age of 21 years as part of our renewal strategy. Since 2021, we have purchased 22 larger and younger second-hand vessels while selling 28 older, smaller vessels. This adds over 200,000 tons dead weight of new capacity to our fleet, equivalent to a 4% increase in total dead weight of the fleet. In November last year, we ordered four dual-fuel methanol LED new buildings in Japan for delivery in 28 and 29. which we believe are well-timed and will contribute positively to our future earnings. LEV new buildings provide Pacific Basin with additional optionality for growth and enable us to meet the industry target of net zero by 2050. Last week, IMO announced that agreement has been reached on its mid-term measures designed to force ships to adopt cleaner fuels from 2028. or face financial penalties. We are currently evaluating the measures and their expected impact. We support the efforts of IMO in respect to reduction of greenhouse gas emissions and believe the agreed measures are an important step forward for the shipping industry and that they will support our initial investments in fuel optimization as well as our dual fuel methanol LEV new buildings. We hope the rules will be adopted at the next MEPC session in October 25. More is obviously required to accelerate the transition, but if adopted, it will be an important milestone and the right step forward to begin decarbonizing the shipping industry. Please turn to slide 14. Long-term inward charter of vessels, particularly new buildings built in Japan, With latest design that maximizes fuel efficiency, enable us to expand our core fleet while maintaining maximum optionality as they come with options that allow us to extend the charter or to purchase the vessels at fixed prices. We currently have firm commitments for 20 long-term chartered vessels, four of which are due for delivery between 25 and 26, consisting of three 64,000 deadweight Ultramaxes and one 42,000 deadweight handy size. These new buildings are all built in Japan and will be equipped with scrubbers. During first quarter, we declare purchase option on two long-term chartered vessels, which will be delivered during the summer. In the second half of 2025, we can declare purchase option on additional two handy-sized vessels built in 2017 and 2020, and one Ultramax vessel built in 2017. All again from Japanese shipbuilders and attractively priced. In light of the uncertainties ahead, we remain close to our customers and are continuously optimizing our short-term cargo commitments to position ourselves optimally in what is expected to be a volatile market. At the same time, we have the financial strength to pursue growth opportunities that normally arise from increased market uncertainties, which will position us well for the next market upturn. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our 2025 first quarter trading update presentations. I will now hand over the call to the operator for Q&A. Thank you.

Thank you. We will now begin our question and answer session. If you have a question for today's speaker, please join the Zoom link via the blue ask a question button. Press the raised hand button and you will enter a queue. After you're announced, please unmute yourself, state your name and company and ask your question. If you find that your question has been answered before it's your turn to speak, please press the lower hand button to leave the queue. You may also type your questions in the Q&A box. Our first question comes from Paris Jane. Please go ahead.

Hi Martin, can you hear me?

I can hear you, Prash.

Lovely. Thank you and good evening. I have two questions. First, with respect to the development in the first quarter, given an apparent imbalance with respect to supply and demand and the fact that the average tc slash freight rate remain significantly above the cash cost level or rather profitable level at a p l does it signal us that it is it is pretty much the bottom as far as demand and supply mismatch is concerned and evolution through the year probably will be anything above those level what we have seen in the first quarter and my second question will be more on how is pac basin preparing for various scenarios of ustr and are you seeing your japanese built vessels values are are are going up versus some of the japanese some of the chinese build vessels that you have both in the second hand as well as in the new build market thank you

Yeah. So I guess, Paresh, the first question was a little bit, what is the rate expectations for the rest of the year? Was that what you were asking me?

I mean, so what I was asking you is that first quarter, given the demand and supply imbalance, freight rate could have landed anywhere. The fact that it has settled at a level where you are comfortably profitable, especially on the cash level. So what are the driving forces which is supporting the freight rate in a scenario of supply exceeding demand and what shall we understand from that pattern for the rest of the year?

Yeah. So let me try and talk a little bit about the market. So you can say that the market this year actually developed a little bit as it normally does. You saw the dip in the market in respect to up to Chinese New Year. So actually the market developed maybe a little bit like it normally should have done. It didn't do that last year, but it did it this year. And as you can see from our earnings, or at least our TCE earnings, we were well positioned for that, to be prepared for that part of it. And when you look a little bit ahead, if you look at the market right now, I would say I can see all share prices in April, of course, took a big dip and some of them have recovered a little bit and so on. The freight rates are actually quite stable. They sort of didn't do much during April. So we have actually had a fairly flat market at a decent level. in that part. I think what happened in the market is that when all these things started, everybody steps back, especially those who have cargoes in and out of the US. So you immediately saw some impacts on that part of it. Everybody steps back a little bit to see what's going on now. And of course, our cargo owners, of course, step a little bit back and wait a little bit to see what will all this mean. I think they're still stepping back and waiting to see exactly what's going to happen. But there's still a lot of activity in many other places and we see actually a quite active market. And I spoke to our commercial people today as well and also earlier this week and what they're saying that probably the market is more thinking about Easter holiday and Golden Week and an Indian monsoon right now. So there is actually activity in the market. So I think the impact of all the tariff discussions probably has a little impact on people stepping back and not replenishing the inventories and these things, but there's still activity in the market. But I also have to say, Pares, there's so much, you know, all these things, there's so much uncertainty, you know, with all the things going on. And it's very hard to predict exactly how that's going to be going forward. I think the way we look at it now is that we will have more volatility in the market. And that's also how we set ourselves up in respect to our cover. in it that that's normally what we do well is is you know position ourselves well with a lot of volatility in the market so yeah that didn't happen last year that last year we had some issues getting the upside of these things but but i think we're much better positioned this year and our contract cover is also it's I wouldn't say quality is better. It sounds like it was bad quality last year. It wasn't, but it's a little bit different this year compared to... It's a little bit less, but it's also a little bit different. It's not so much backhaul. It's a little bit different in that sense. So we think we have better position for a more volatile market. Fundamentally, of course, and we also said that early in the year, there is a lot... There's more ships being delivered than what we see on the growth side of it. And the concern is, of course, where does all this end up? Will it end up in some sort of recession? That is, of course, not very nice in it. But if it's only trading patterns that changes and so on, that's normally good for us. But if it takes overhand and it impacts the... the global economy, that would not be so good. We are still dependent on global trade growth in that part. I hope that answers your question. Yes, yes.

And second on USTR.

Yes. Yeah, especially USTR, again, In some ways, we are well-positioned that 70% of our fleet is Japanese-built. And as we always see, there's also some opportunities in that part of it. Of course, we didn't buy those ships in Japan for this reason. We did it for different reasons. Of course, better. you know, better performance and at least over time and speed consumption and these things. And now, of course, this comes up. So we see that there's some opportunities in it. The challenge is, of course, so far, we don't really know exactly what what the regulation will be. What we hear right now, and we actually expect to see more today, I think it's supposed to come from the US today. What we expect to see is, compared to what we saw earlier, that the demand or the requirements will be somewhat diluted. compared to the initial statements that we have. And we probably also feel, maybe also hope a little bit, that it will be more linked to ship sizes than port calls. So, but, and also, you know, there's also lots of, I think the devil is in the detail of this. So I think we are sitting here waiting to see what it is, hoping also a little bit that they will give us a little bit of time before they implement it. the regulation. And I also hear the rumors that they will only do it end of the year. I think that will be, I think it's going to happen for different reasons in it. And we see that as things we need to do, that we will prepare to do that. We also see it a little bit as an opportunity for Pacific Basin in all of this. But it will probably require a little bit of preparing and planning to do that. And of course, I think Again, we have a big own fleet of ships and, you know, we're sitting here looking a little bit ahead as well. And what it also will do is, of course, it will put some pressure on the yards in respect to who's going to build new buildings in China. A little bit of question, huh? So I think that would have an impact on that part of it. In the secondhand market, you also asked about that. In the secondhand market, I wouldn't, you know, we are selling some of the old ships we have been selling. They are Japanese built. I would not say that we get a lot more money. We always get good prices because well-maintained ships, but there's probably more liquidity. There's interest. There's probably more buyers in it. So maybe that also has an impact on the prices. I think if we had, we haven't sold the Chinese-built ships. I think if we had one of those, I think there would be less buyers interested.

Absolutely. No, that is very, very helpful. And also, it was quite reassuring to see Bank Basin re-establishing its premium over the spot market. So that was quite reassuring. Thank you. And I'll pass it back to the operator. Thank you.

Thank you, Parash.

Thank you very much. So our next question will come from Nathan Gee. Please unmute yourself and go ahead.

Hi, Martin. Thanks for the call. Maybe three questions from me. Firstly, just in terms of secondhand prices, I think they're down about 10 to 20% from peak. So can you comment on whether secondhand purchases are looking a bit more interesting? That's the first question. Secondly, just in terms of the buyback, Was there any internal debate in terms of potentially pausing the program given the macro uncertainties right now? And then thirdly, Clarkson's I think is also calling for oversupply into 26. Do you have any early sort of base case for you for next year or just too early to say, too hard to say given uncertainties? Thanks.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's true. Second-hand prices, they actually did come down at the end of last year into this year. But it actually has come up a little bit as well lately. That could actually have something to do with the USTR and other things. We're actually discussing a little bit why is it doing that. Because the market... did the usual dip in January and then came back. But, you know, I'm not so sure that's driving the secondhand prices. But actually, we have actually seen a little bit of improvement on secondhand prices the last month or so. Not a lot, but just a little. And, of course, new building prices are fairly flat, maybe a little bit down, but that's pretty much flat in that part. So we're interested to see how that is developing. And there, as I said before, I think the USTR will have a, you know, but have a big impact on that development as well. Same about inflation and exchange rates. Everything is a little bit in play at the moment, so we have to see how that is going. On the buyback side of it, we have bought back... $13.5 million of shares, 63.5 million shares so far. We are always discussing what is the right thing to do in it. But fundamentally, we actually still believe that we are undervalued when you look at the share price compared to the fair market NAV of the company. Even if you are a little bit, if you wanted to be a little bit negative on the asset values, we are still trading at a big discount. And the cheapest asset we can buy still is our own shares. So I think we will continue to do that. We will, of course, monitor what's happening in the world and so on. But I think we will, unless something major happens, we will continue to do the share buyback, as we had also announced to the market.

That's great.

And the last one was the oversimplification. I have to say, Nathan, with all the things going on at the moment, I haven't really looked at 2026. But fundamentally, when you look at the order book, the order book is when Michigan say that it's peaking this year. The order book will decrease next year. And you can always discuss, will there be some ships being pushed from this year to next year? You never know about that. But this year is the highest number of ships being delivered when we look at it. And then it will come down somewhat next year and even lower again the year after. And if you want to do a new building today, it is basically 28. So there's a lot of transparency on the supply side. going forward in that sense. The demand, so that's quite clear. Of course, some adjustments, but it's quite clear what the supply would be. The demand then, there's so many questions. It's very, very hard to predict. It depends on, of course, the outcome of all the discussion going on at the moment where that ends up, but We are still, when we look at it, the trade routes will change. That is normally good for us. Many of the disruptors that we are seeing at the moment, it's hard to see them going away in the short term. And that's normally also quite good for the market. Actually, new disruptors will come along, USTR and other things. So probably a lot of volatility in the market. Fundamentally, overall, the best thing for us would be a world where global trade is increasing and global growth is going on at high levels. That's fundamentally long-term better for us than these short-term disruptors. That helps. But we have to also admit that our market sometimes is driven by these disruptors, as we saw last year with Suez Canal or Red Sea and Panama. And they keep coming up. It's perfect. Thank you. Thanks so much, Martin. Thank you.

I have one online question. Martin, what's your take on the IMO midterm measures? Thank you.

I would say, first of all, I think about IMO We are studying it. We only got it last week. So the devil is always in the details. So there's a little bit of studying going on on that side. But when we sort of look at it overall, this is actually what we had expected. This is actually also what we had hoped a little bit for, that they came up with such a level playing field regulation. where they actually put a fee on the emissions you do based on the fumes you are using. I personally feel this is a good way of doing it. This is actually also the foundation for our ordering of LEAV. We had expected and hoped that this would happen, and now it's happening. Do we think that the initial reaction on the size of the fees, we think it's a little bit of a slow transition, but we also respect fully that You know, you need to get everybody on board and you need to get at least majority of these things. So we also understand we have to take it in stages in that part of it. But we actually do think that this supports the strategy that we have had, both with respect to renewing our fleet, to reduce our consumption, our existing ships, and also our investments in the LEV ships on the metal side. This is the right step forward. Still always not happy thinking it's too little, but I think if this is adopted in October when they have to do that at IMO, I think this is a milestone for the industry and it's a good signal to send. And this is something that will be positive in the transition, both in respect to to get rid of some of the older less efficient ships and and and hopefully get more of these dual fuel led ships into the market we have another online question what's the driver behind your operating margin improvement yeah it is it is a it is a compared to last year, you can say we actually, in all fairness, I would say we are returning to what a level that we're supposed to have on our operating business. And I would say last year, the margins of the operating business was too low. And it was actually linked to to the mainly to the steel business we did last year where there was a lot of steel going out of out of China and we do a lot of those businesses and we were caught a little bit both in respect to to delays in port and congestion and so on but we also caught a little bit because many of our deals goes to loading areas so they're backhaul voyages with steel And maybe we got into areas where the bonus we normally get was sort of not there as much. We have changed a little bit how we are doing it. We have put more focus on optimization in the ports. And we're also using a little bit more our own ships for these trades because it gives a little bit more flexibility. I said a little bit earlier, I think the quality of how we do things, a little bit more focus on the margins, a little bit less aggressive on the number of days, even though we are increasing the numbers of days. to make sure we get the full value out of it. So I think the nearly $900 in operating profit and a little bit higher number of days, that's where we're supposed to be. And the focus will be on maintaining that and hopefully improving it over time.

Okay, and just a reminder, if you do have a question for today's speaker, you can join the Zoom link via the blue ask a question button or press the raise hand button and you will enter the queue. After announced, you can unmute yourself, state your name and question and ask your question. And if you find that your question has been asked before it's your turn to speak, please press the lower hand button to leave the queue. You may also type your questions in the Q&A box. I'll just pause for a moment to allow any more questions to form the queue. OK, and we have a queue. We have a question. We have a Yasmin Key. If you'd like to unmute yourself and go ahead. Yasmin, I can see you've unmuted yourself, but we can't hear you. Could you just try speaking again?

Hi. Hi, Martin.

Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you.

Thank you for taking my question. I have two questions. The first one is, as you have mentioned, that some buyers have stepped back on the back of uncertain US tariffs and you have seen some trade shifts. So my first question is, can you share more on what kind of trade shifts have you seen in the past few weeks and What kind of commodities have you seen the shift? And the second question is that, as you mentioned, MA opportunities as a strategy to grow your fleet. So I want to hear more on this side. Do you look for smaller companies in the intra-Asian market or other projects on the dry bulk segment? Yeah, thank you.

Thank you very much. When we talk about commodities into the commodities into the in and out of the U.S. on our size of ships, it's of course grain. It is fertilizers. It's cement, salt, forest products, and these things. And I think, I can't say if, and also scrap, I can't say if all of them have been impacted, but I think just in general, that's the feeling that everybody, also the ship owners and operators are stepping back a little bit for anything that involves cargo or ships in and out of the US. I'm sure something is still ongoing, and of course there's contractual obligations and these things. It's still ongoing, but I think there's probably also discussion about who's going to take the risk of different things. I think today, hopefully we get a little bit more clarity from USTR. I think that would help a lot on that part of it. So it's not that there's no demand. There is actually demand for these things, but But who's going to bear the risk? And there's so much uncertainty on when are the rules enforced and And if you do a deal into the U.S. with a ship and you arrive there, is there suddenly a fee on the port call and these things? So I think it's very clear and very obvious that everybody stares back and just want to see that because the money involved is actually fairly big. So I think, you know, maybe we get something today and maybe next week there's a bit more clarity on it. And then I'm fairly sure that that trade will start again and people will start moving forward. moving the cargoes. Of course, the big tariff thing between China and the US, of course, that means that trade will, especially the trade from the US to China on grains, That will ship somewhere else and that will probably go to Brazil and other places. It makes no sense to do that part. But the thing about dry cargo commodities, especially a lot of them, you can always source them somewhere else. It might not be as optimal distance-wise, but that's the thing. And that's sometimes very good for us that you can shift around on that part of it. I hope that answered that question. The M&A part of it, we are sending a little bit of a signal, I guess, by when we sort of put in M&A. But the wish is, of course, to tell the market that we are a growth company. We like to grow the company. We are also growing the company, maybe not as fast as we want to. We have a very solid balance sheet that allows us to do things faster. we we want to be super disciplined about it in many ways we like organic growth because it gives us you know the choice of what kind of ships we get quality ships and you know looking at decarbonization and all these things but on the other hand we also like to keep the door open for for m&a opportunities and we we we would we would definitely look at at at companies that maybe have a little bit the same culture and synergies to what we do. So we don't have sort of a specific point at somebody on this part, but it's of course something we keep on evaluating and we'll also keep on evaluating. And we're just saying that that's also an option, not an option we've done a lot. We are normally doing organic growth and that's also, we like that actually, but we like to keep the door open for other growth opportunities.

Very clear, yeah, thank you.

Okay, and just a final reminder, if you would like to ask a question and you're on the webcast, you can click the blue during the meeting link. Once you're in the webinar, you can raise your hand to ask a question and lower your hand if you want to remove yourself from the queue. So I'll just pause for another moment to see if there's any further questions. Okay, as there are no further questions, we'll now begin the closing remarks. Please go ahead, Mr. Martin Frogard.

Thank you very much. I'd like to thank you again for joining us today and your continuous support of Pacific Basin. If you have any further questions, please contact Cameron Ip from our Investor Relations Department. Thank you very much and have a good Easter. Bye.

This concludes our conference call. Thank you all for attending.