Piaggio & C Spa Unsp/Adr

Good afternoon. This is the Coral School Conference Operator. Welcome and thank you for joining the Piaggio Full Year 2024 Financial Results Conference Call. As a reminder, all participants are in listen-only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. Should anyone need assistance during the conference call, they may sing with an operator by pressing star and zero on their telephone. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Raffaele Lupotto, Investor Relations of Piaggio. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes, thank you very much. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the full year 2024 Financial Results Conference Call. Today's conference call will be offered by Piaggio Group Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Michele Colanino, and Piaggio Group CFO, Alessandra Simonotto. Today we have also the pleasure to have with us, Calgary Group Executive Chairman, Mr. Matteo Polanino. You can access the slides supporting this conference call on the internet at the Calgary Group website. As you may expect before starting the presentation, I need to remind you that today's conference call may use forward-looking statements based on Calgary's current expectations and projections about future events. By their nature, forward-looking statements are subject to risks, uncertainties, and other factors that can cause actual results to be materially different, as mentioned in the same airborne statement, including on page 2 of today's presentation. Also, I remind you that the class has been invited to participate in this conference call in a listening-only mode. With that said, let me turn the call over to our CEO, Mr. Michele Polanini.

Thank you, Raffaele, and good afternoon to you all, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for joining the PIADRE conference call of the day. Let me say, even if today is not the perfect day to speak about numbers, given what's happening around the world, especially due to geopolitical situations that you know perfectly, I would like to say and point out that 2024 for Piaggio Group is pointing out good results in terms of EBDA margin, reaching the best ever percentage on net revenues that we ever achieved, and at the same time, an increase in gross margin percentage up to 29.2%. This is given by a strong management of the productivity around the world by all the teams that every day work in our company and with the attention of the cash flow generation and operating cash flow. As far as revenues is concerned, the declining that we have pointed out is the consequence of the strategy that you know we started at the beginning or at the end of 2023 destocking our dealers network around the world, especially in Europe, but not only in Europe. Giving you a number, the value of the destocking has been around 110 million zeros. It means that we have a beginning of 25 that is quite satisfying considering the healthy of our dealers. And you know that I am particularly interested in having our partners making money. With a solid and healthy dealer distribution network, we can continue with the selling strategy following the markets that, as you know, can go up or can go down. But we don't have the necessity to stop deliveries because dealers are affected financially. And dealers are entrepreneurs. having high interest rates to pay, having a consumer finance situation that is a little bit frustrating because of interest rates, but I'm positive about their sustainability in the future. Another important key aspect of the 2024 results is the debt. The debt has arisen as a consequence of the stocking. It means that we have inflow of less value compared to the stock of 110 roughly million euros. We have increased our capex in our factories, our plants, and our iconic brands and products because I think that we have to fill the gap with the worldwide competition in some a medium-range bike and we have done the job. We have to renew the line in Europe given to the change in legislation both for two-wheeled vehicles Euro 5 to Euro 5 Plus and light commercial vehicles, the Porter, where we are investing and we will launch in April our first ever electric vehicle in our group. What I expect is that the situation that we are having around the world, let's say, not manageable by us, and I mean wars, I mean Suez Canal, I mean trade wars that probably will arise around the world, I mean interest rates that are slightly going down, all aspects that are affecting the consumer business let's say the premium consumer business around the world, not just in our segment, but as we see on papers, it's spreading on major business that are in the upper premium or luxury business. The Asian situation is not bleeding as it was in the 2024. It's starting recovering a little bit in Vietnam and Thailand. It is positive in Indonesia, still positive in Indonesia. I'm satisfied about the Indonesian market in 2024. It's still flat or bad in China. And this is for every business related to consumer business. As far as India is concerned, I'm satisfied. We've done a good job. We can do better. We will do better in the medium to long term because we will enter new markets on the two-wheeled vehicles. so not just the Vespas and the previous medium-range bikes, but also other scooters for mobility over there. We have electric vehicles being sold on the three-wheeled market. We have new vehicles that are coming out in the next and coming months in India, especially on the light mobility for goods, so the three-wheeled vehicles. So I'm positive on India. Europe, it is stagnant. The beginning of the year is reflecting the change in Euro 5 Plus legislations. That's normal. Nothing strange on the market. We have some adjustment in stocks, given that the dealers cannot sell any more Euro 5 and they have to sell Euro 5 Plus. To be pragmatic, we decided that the inflow and the selling of these all new vehicles, Euro 5 Plus, will be not suddenly done by Piaggio Group, We have begun at the beginning of 2025 with the Euro5 Plus vehicles. We will continue until the end of March, substituting selling of new vehicles. So we are taking a low-page selling for Euro5 Plus, respecting, obviously, all the obligations that we have from the low. The United States has been affected in 2024, given 99% because of high interest rates. We don't have major problems there. It's a big market for us. It's an interesting market for the medium-range bikes. So we are satisfied of the new Aprilia bikes that we are introducing, that we have introduced. And I think that we need some stability. That's what I think, given that entrepreneurs cannot substitute politicians and policymakers. but I want to be positive, let's say, and I hope that our policy makers will find a solution for the situation that we are seeing since the beginning of 2025. As you can see, we have slightly declining inventories, that is positive, it's not growing, let's say, even though we have a longer period due to the Suez Canal that impact working capital and inventories. It seems that since June, if nothing gets worse, the situation can be positive in that site, so ships starting to enter the Suez Canal and not being obliged to go around Africa to reach Europe, coming from Asia, I mean. As you can see, we have a decline in commercial tables, and that's positive to work properly with our suppliers, because we work with our suppliers and we have to work together. You know, we are not enemies, we are friends. As I said, we have a stocking of 100 million euros, increasing capex for 20 million, and an operating cash flow positive of around 200 million euros. This is very briefly what we are pointing out in our slides that, as you can see, are also showing our product range and our iconic brands that we are selling around the world. As you can see, we have approved a dividend, and that's positive, even if it is reflecting the reduction in net income. I think that shareholders will be satisfied about the payout. That is not decreasing. It's maintained stable. And we are managing also a positive return on stock investments. given that the percentage of the total amount of the dividends is roughly 10% on the actual value of the share listed on the stock. That is to say that we are continuously investing in our product. I don't see any necessity to reuse the investments page. We will have, for sure, a slight reduction this year, given that the electric port has will enter the market, and that all the homologations are finished. So, in the next years, I foresee a declining necessity of capital expenditure in new products, as far as in production facilities, where, as you know, we are totally renewing the Moto Guzzi house in Mandello Lario, and that's one of the reasons of the increasing in CapEx, and we are investing in safety processes for our workers, and obviously we are investing, as you are aware of, in electrifying our engines production in Italy, also through the possibility and the opportunity given by the recovery plan that has been delivered by European unions in the last years. So we will be investing in this electrification of our product range, Without any hurry, as you know, we decided not to rush too much in electrifying our vehicles because we foresaw something that would have taken more period of time compared to what is in the future of the electrification of the world. I repeat and I point out that two-wheel vehicles are not under the legislation of any reduction of CO2 emissions and obligation to convert all the product range because the electric two-wheel vehicles market has a weight of just 0.5 of CO2 emissions all over the world compared to the total and overall emissions of CO2. The ratio between net financial position and ABDA is still under control, below two. So I'm not worried about the number because we know why we have this increase in debt. The stocking and investments. So it's, let's say, momentum that we will recover in the coming years and we will continue to push on productivity, perfect investments and return on investments, and hoping to have, let's say, negative but positive vision for the medium to long term period. What's happening around the world I don't have to tell you. You know everything. The market now is overall down in every single listed market because of trade wars between US, Europe and China. Let's hope that they will find a solution because I am not in favor of these situations given that the policies about Paris you know, it's a temporary relief, perhaps for some economy, but in the medium term is a disaster. So let's see what happens. Just to give you a brief description of what at the ASEM level and the chairman in Brussels we are discussing is that we don't need any tariffs between Europe and U.S. We are in favor of good competition, fair competition, and even because the balance between U.S. and Europe on our vehicles is quite flat. It's the same. We don't have any need of tariffs, import or export. Let's hope that also United States will take the same direction that we are aiming at the Aetna level. And that what I think it's a good way to manage the business instead of having unfair competitions. The maturity of our debt is safe. We have roughly four years of debt profile. We don't have any IRA this year. We don't have any IRA next year. So we are very happy about the situation of our relation with banks and bondholders. So this is a fact. Fortunately or not fortunately, there is a strategy. We have secured our debt profile. So we can concentrate now on doing our day-by-day job. Sellout is the priority. So to have a consequence of, let's see here, increasing revenues and the consequence of increasing revenues is everything that is below revenue. This is very briefly what we decided today during the Board of Directors and we approved all the numbers and this is what we have achieved last year.

Thank you very much. So with that we are ready to start the Q&A session so please ask your questions and also Conference call sake, please limit the number of questions to maximum three per person, please. Thank you very much.

Thank you. This is the Coral School conference operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. To remove yourself from the question queue, please press star and two. Please pick up the receiver when asking questions. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question is from Monica Bosio in San Paolo. Please go ahead.

Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for taking my questions. I will limit it to three. The first one is on the stocking process and the situation in terms of revenues in Western countries. So if I understood well, the company lost 110 million euro revenues in due to the stocking, which according to my math was in the range of 24,000 vehicles. So how much of these revenues is the company going to recover in 2025, given also that the selling in the first part of the year will be weak, if I have understood well. Any indication could be useful just to address if revenues in Europe will grow low single digit or will keep flat or whatever. The second question is on the CAPEX. I understood that it will go down, but I understood also that it will go slightly down in 2025. So any indication could be useful on this side, also on the free cash flow generation that the company expects for this year. And the very last is on the production the company has in India for two wheels. Are you going to manufacture scooters in India and then maybe to export these scooters into Europe? Is this a strategy that you're going to pursue?

Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Bozzi, for your questions.

Let's start from the stocking process. I think that we have quite finished the stocking process. At the beginning of the year, let's say January and February, we have a last way and page of the stocking in Europe. But the major... and 95% of the process has been done in 2024. Now, if we have the possibility to start stocking again, it just belongs to markets. If market growth is what we expect, because we expect some growth around the world, we have the possibility to increase also the stock, because we have a ratio that we don't want to, we want to maintain that ratio to sustain the dealer's profitability. So it basically depends on the markets. We hopefully will increase some market share on our vehicles, but what I can tell you is that 95% of the work has been done in 24 hours. The remaining 5% is just, well, you know, normal management of the dealers. Nothing serious, nothing that will need us to break the system and stop selling the vehicles. CAPEX, yeah, it's slightly down. We have to finish the Vandello-Lario investment, and we have to improve our electromobility investment in Italy, because I'm convinced that it's intelligent to manage, let's say, the heart of the vehicle, that is the engine and the software, as you know, I told you many times in the past. So we will invest in this technology. I'm totally convinced that in the world of today, any company, and we are doing that, must invest in technology. If you do not invest your money in technology, you will lose the opportunity to customers that are interested in technology. So we are investing in software, we are investing in capability for verticalization of sound components that we think are crucial for our engines and our vehicles to be ready whenever the European and let's say the Western countries will ask for these kinds of technology. We know that Asia, especially China, is the only market that is pushing on selling electric vehicles. But I've been in Beijing in the last 20 days. I've been there one week to understand what's going on. I can tell you that China is living on exports. They are investing a lot in technology. We know that. It's a technology that we can manage. It's a technology that we are investing in. But the market is still a marginal market. A marginal market means that the break-even, let's say the break-even of the volumes you have to achieve on these cheap vehicles in China is two million average. So it's not our strategy to go into marginal business. We are not in China, we are in Europe. We have to sustain our margins. Possibly not increasing prices, and is what we are doing. We are not increasing prices. Well, just a slightly increase due to Euro 5 homologation, but nothing serious. So we don't want to enter the Chinese marginal market. India. India is a market that is very interesting for two-wheel vehicles. It's starting to enter a value that we can be competitive in, so we will localize, produce, and sell India on India. Some export markets are interesting, for sure. It is not for Europe, it is not for United States, just to give you the view that I have on the country. It means that Europe and United States will be supplied by Italy, 95% of the selling that we have in those markets. We continue, and I think, look at this, that the strategy that we took many years ago to produce and sell where we have production facilities, it's demonstrating it was a good strategy. Because if we enter in a tariff war, you know, every company, every continent will increase their tariffs and imports, but we decided to have production facilities, supplier bases that is good, and the market that we supply from the market where we produce. So you know that Asia is supplied by Vietnam, Indonesia, and China. India and surrounding countries, that it's the export possibility that we have, the surrounding countries and perhaps some African countries, is supplied by India. Europe and the United States will be supplied by Europe. So the strategy is correct. The strategy, it's demonstrated that we took the right decision. Now it's our job to make the strategy transform into Selenium. And I have to say, sorry, I forgot to say this, but it's very important to me, that I'm satisfied of the people that are working in the PIG group around the world. They've done a good job. We have done a good job. We have done together a good job because, you know, being resilient, that's a word that we have to stress. In 2024, that has been characterized by many, many magnitude, problem of big magnitudes that, you know, was not forecasted. We cannot do nothing, so the fact that we have been able to achieve not the budget that we had approved in January 24, but the numbers that we have, even if it is reducing compared to last year's, are quite solid numbers. It is the best third ever year of the Piaggio Group, and the best ever on the percentage of EBDA since 2003. That's why I'm satisfied. If you ask me if I'm satisfied about revenues, no, but I cannot do nothing to stop the wars.

Unfortunately. Got it. Got it. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The next question is from Emanuele Galazzi, Equita. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for taking my questions. I have basically two questions. One is on the dealers. You mentioned some measures to support them, including the stocking and also the better credit condition. But just looking at Europe, what kind of feedback are you getting from them about the Euro 5 Plus products and the overall market condition there? And my second one is still on the networking capital, because we have seen this, give or take, €50 million increase. cash absorption in 2024. I was just trying to understand what do you expect for 2025? Should we have to expect inventories down and also payables down?

Thank you for your question. Dealers are happy.

Obviously, we have shown them at the ECMA fair in Milan what we will have done in the 2025 product range. They are waiting to have the especially medium range capacity bikes. They are positive on that market. They are happy about the Vesto brand. Let's say that they are not, you know, happy, but they are entrepreneurs like me. They are not happy paying 8% to the bank for, you know, doing that business. But that's life. You know, we pay our interest, they pay our interest. So they are not, they are still not the same confidence, let me say, that they had in 2022 or 2023, but that was an exceptional momentum of our market. So from the product line, Euro 5 Plus, European dealers, they are satisfied. And they think the products are okay. The stocking. The stocking has been intelligent. It is, you know, a way to work together with them. It's not that we want to sustain them. I continually tell them that they have to do their job like we do our job, so that we have to work together to have an increase in sell-out. But, you know, what we have done is it has been necessary because we forecasted that it would have been a tough year in 2024 in Europe, mainly due to the legislation changes, but also due to, you know, factors that you cannot manage without having an impact on your business case. The high inflation rates in the previous years and the interest rates, the other two major aspects, you know, that affect heavy business, that has a relation with consumer. So, you know, I hope that we will find that, you know, well, let's say that we not go back to the problem that we foresaw in 2023 and 2024. If the situation will continue like this, and given that they are satisfied about the product range that we have given them, you know, I don't see any decline. Let's say like this. We know that Europe is not a big growth market. It's quite stable. Yeah, it's plus two, minus two, minus five, plus five, but it's a rich market, so the price and the margins are very good for us, and we are satisfied about the products that we are introducing in the network from now to March. Networking capital, I would leave to Alessandra our CFO to tell you the major issues that we had to manage.

All right, the major issue that we had during the year was more or less the first one, the Swiss Canal, as we already said before. 30 days more of the by the sea around the Africa, more or less cost to everyone, this work on a risk of more or less 20 million euros. more on the inventory. So this is the first factor of the working capital. The second one is the minimum health that we have given to our customers. In a period in which they have to work on a stocking and heavy stocking on a near market, we give them two or three days more as a global credit fund. And this is more or less cost to Piaggio and to our cash flow, 10 million euros. One thing that you can see in our cash flow is the slowdown of the payables. Also in this, we have worked with the supplier in a period in which the cost of that is higher than 2022 or 2021. So in the cases in which we consider important to support the supplier, we have helped them with the reduction of the payment service. And this is more or less impact on the next capital, on the working capital for more or less 40 million euros. So this is the picture that we put on the table when we talk about this most important effect.

Very clear. Thank you.

The next question is from . Please go ahead.

Good afternoon, thanks for taking my questions. The first one is again on inventories. I see basically that even if I took off the 20 million you were mentioning of Suez Canal impact, days of inventories are still much higher compared to your historical averages. Is there any room for further improvements in 2025 onwards? And if not, why? My second question is on gross margin. What are your expectations going forward, assuming no big changes in the country mix? Are you seeing any particular cost item which is trending against you or you consider that everything is under control? My very last question is on Southeast Asia. At the beginning of the call, you said that markets are in a sort of stabilization phase, bottoming out phase. But over the past few quarters, we have seen a marked difference between overall markets and the premium segment. So can you give us an insight of how the premium segment of the market is faring so far? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Storer. Starting from the inventories, yes, I think further improvements in the 2025 year. The 2024 situation has been affected by the delay on delivery of logistics given to the Suez Canal that has pushed us to have a slight increase in what we have bought, given that we take a longer period due to the situation. I'm not worried about this. We are working every day to reduce the level of inventories, so I think that I can say we will have improvements. Yeah, if you're asking this, I can confirm this. As far as gross margin is concerned, well, confirming the 29.2% of 2024 is what I can tell you we're working for. I see some issues, but it's more... local issues, if you take the electricity cost in Italy, if you take possible tariffs that can affect the business, if you take the cost of the debt that is affecting the business, but it's not affecting the gross margin. But overall, I don't see major risks, even because we have taken some opportunities during 2024 on raw material prices. We have taken some opportunities in some exchange rate with some international currency. So we have fixed what we could fix to maintain the actual level of gross margin. Southeast Asia, you know, during my trip in Southeast Asia last month, I have to tell you, we could do better in Indonesia. because Indonesia has not been affected until now of the China crisis. So with the brand that we have, I'm positive that we can do better results over there. I'm not positive on China, but I can tell you that the only positive picture that I have in front of my eyes was cranes around Beijing. It means that they are starting to push a little bit on real estate. And you know better than me that the problem of real estate in China is what affected the market of banks and consumer business. So if they foresee recovery, even if it is a slight recovery in real estate markets, it means that the consumer markets can restart. And these affected especially premium and luxury markets in China. So they told us they see some, you know, sunshine at the end of the day. They are not fully positive. They're not, it means our, you know, the people who spoke with, that are bankers, that are, you know, entrepreneurs, that are real estate businessmen. But the policy makers, let's say like this, told them we have not to belong too much to export because we do not know what happens in the world. So we have to push for our internal markets. And you know better than me that China is a place where the decision, when the decision is taken, everyone, everybody follows the decision. So that is the only positive situation I can tell you, even though the market has been struggling in 2024. And we are working, especially with the Vespa brand, all over the Asian markets to push on the brand image that we have over there. So to enhance our brand visibility, not just on the vehicle, but also, you know, on the lifestyle that is the Vespa soul, let me say, of the brand. You know, without any intention to go to Paris or to the filet, but the brand, especially in Asia, can sustain an enlargement of the value, let's say the value of the brand. You can take it as a marketing opportunity instead of an opportunity for revenues, but I think that we can do also some revenues on that. But this is not included in our budget and forecasts. Let's say we take it as a marketing opportunity. We have created these pop-ups around the Asia markets for the 946 15,000 euros value FESPA snake, the lunar calendar edition. We have done these pop-ups in Beijing, Jakarta, Indonesia, Singapore, and Hanoi. And let me say they started since January the 1st, and they are going on to, let's say, middle of March, you know, to see the market, to explain to our customers what we do, to show them the value of our brand, and to show the quality of our brand. It is totally different compared if you buy a 300cc scooter just to go from A to B. This is a strategy that you guys all know and that we are pushing, And I think that the return will be positive. It's not tomorrow morning because the situation, the financial situation, it's not for, you know, I spent value in the Asian market, but we cannot stop the enhance and the value of our brand. Buys are different, so we don't have any production of buys for the time being in Asia. The Vespa brand and the Piaggio brand, we introduced a new Liberty in Hanoi. We launched a new vehicle that is, you know, a middle, low middle value market. So it's not cheap market, it's not marginal market, it's a community business that is totally in line with the Piaggio brand strategy. So I don't have to say that I'm positive on China and Thailand. We can do better in Indonesia. I'm slightly positive on Thailand and Vietnam because numbers are slightly positive. They're not the same of 22, but the sellout per week, it's starting to grow. Few numbers, low numbers, but it's a positive momentum of consumer attitude. Let me say like this. Usually when the consumer attitude is growing, also the purchasing power will grow. So they are now in a situation of having saved money, because especially in China they are saving money, and employing in design. But let me say that I've seen the Beijing that it's starting to, you know,

Ignite the engines again. Grazie.

Next question is from Gianluca Bertuzzo in Termonte. Please go ahead.

Hi, everybody, and thank you for taking my question. You mentioned that you expect in 2025 to improve compared to 2024. The improvement you are seeking is on both the top line and profitability or just broadly speaking? Do you expect an improvement only in revenues or in profitability, and what are your thoughts around that? Thank you.

Let me say that if we achieve an increase in top line, I would be very satisfied, and we are working for that. Moving further, the margins of EBDA, that is 70%, you know, it's not easy, given the situation that we have. So we are working on top line.

Thank you very much and a follow up maybe on competition. What are the effects on the market due to the particular situation of your competitor and are you seeing higher competitive pressure overall or the situation is more or less stable?

You're referring all over the world or Europe?

In Europe, and if you want to add a specific comment to Asia-Pacific, it would be helpful as well.

Asia-Pacific, very low competition compared to the Vespa brand. I think that we are the best premium vehicle in the market. That's been affected by declining consumer purchasing power and aptitude. So I don't see any big risk on that market. As far as Europe is concerned, you know that we had a turbulent, let's say, end of the year, given that some of our competitors have been obliged to discount up to 50% their bike. And it's a European competitor, unfortunately, and luckily. I hope that we solve the problem very soon. And it seems that they will solve the problem. So the pricing point has been affected by, you know, some hysteric situation at the dealers. Not because, you know, particular situations, because of the stocking, Euro 5 Plus, and, you know, some competitors that have fixed their problems. Chinese are coming. They are about doing a good job. As I told you, I don't think that they can... go even further in price compression in China, because they need also the internal and local markets, not just the export. But once again, we will now enter the low price competition. We keep our value, let's say, slightly higher if you compare to other Chinese or Indian brands, given that I think that the value of our brands are still stronger than their value. If it is just money versus money, they are stronger than us. But it's not a competition that I would like to have, given the branch that we are managing.

Okay, thank you.

The next question is from Javier Ecavaria in Vaxel. Please go ahead. Maybe your line is on mute.

We cannot hear you.

Yeah, sorry. Sorry. My question has already been answered. It was about the competition, so thank you very much.

Thank you, and happy to have you here.

The next question is from Michele Baldelli, BNP Paribas Exxon. Please go ahead.

Hi to everybody. I have a question on the, let's say, recurring no-recourse factoring. I would like to know how much was at the end of 2024 the no-recourse factoring that is off balance sheet. And the second question relates to the level of capex spent in the last years. on intangible assets because I saw that the amortization on these was just 76 million last year in 2024. But if I'm not wrong, the investments were 90 million on average and plus in the last five, six years. So shall we see an increase of those amortization in 2025 with the electric vehicles going into production? And the last question relates a little bit on the trends in Q1 that we should expect. If you can give some color because I was looking to the statistics and also to your comments. It seems like Q1 will hardly show any growth. Thank you.

Well, I would play to the second and third question and then I leave the stage to Alessandro for the non-recurse factor. Markets, as you see from public communications, let's say India is positive, still positive. Europe is down because of Euro 5 and Euro 5 plus problem, basically. It's not because of any bigger issue on the market. It will finish, so it will recover. Captex, the intangible is research and development. that we do every year. And obviously, we will have a slight increase on amortization costs due to the introduction of the electric porter. Nothing related to, you know, two-wheeled vehicles, even if we are introducing also new vehicles. So we will have a slight increase in amortization, but that's, you know, the consequence of doing our products. Also, the amortization costs As I told you about the CapEx, I think that we will reach the peak in 2025, and then we'll start reducing them. Because we are entering now in a not-necessary necessity of totally new vehicles. We are filling the gap. Once we fill the gap with the competition, especially in bikes, we don't have to put on the streets every year any new vehicles. So let's say the maintenance, let me say like this, cost and capital expenditure on vehicles that we have launched, it is not at the same magnitude of doing a totally new vehicle. I leave the stage to Alessandro.

About the... the factoring with our course. At the end of December 2034, we were at 125 million euros against the 117 at the end of 2023.

Stable.

So, no particular differences. And I do not remember where the other question about the intangible assets.

No, it was about the RMD.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, we already asked that. He asked about why we have this amount in what is because we invest in R&D development. Yes.

Or the new products.

Okay. Great. So, I think there are no more questions. So, operator, can you confirm?

Yes, there are no more questions registered at this time.

Okay. Thank you. The call is over, and thank you for attending this conference call. If you need further info, you can call me later, as usual. Bye.