Poste Italiane Spa

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Poste Italiana's second quarter and first half 2025 results conference call. In a few moments, the CEO, Matteo De Frante, will take you through some opening remarks, and then the CFO, Camillo Greco, will call the financials. As usual, the presentation will be followed by a Q&A session where you can ask questions either by phone or through our webcast platform. For any topics we won't be able to cover today, please do contact the IEF team. We will provide any qualifications you might require.

With that, over to you, Matteo.

And good afternoon, and thank you for joining us today for our Q2 and first round 2025 results call. It is great to have you. with us today as we share another record-breaking quarter of growth and an impressive first half of 2025 as we continue to deliver on our strategic plan. We have delivered record second quarter group revenues, EBIT and net income. All business units contributed to a solid 5% year-on-year top-line growth to 6.5 billion euros, EBIT growth at 12%, to over 1.7 billion euros. These results are yet another demonstration of the strength of our business model, seamless execution, continued ability to adapt and grow in a dynamic environment, supported by relentless cost discipline. Net profit at 1.2 billion is up a remarkable 14% compared to the same period of last year. Since the beginning of the year, we registered strong net inflows in investment products, confirming our robust commercial performance in insurance product capital with record quarterly net interest margin. Our balance sheet remained extremely solid, supporting our upgraded dividend policy. Solvency II ratio remains well above 300%, including the impact of the first 500 million of additional remittance from Poste Vita to the client company paid in June 2025. The strong momentum across our platform, and particularly in our financial insurance division, give us the confidence to increase our EBIT adjusted guidance for full year 2025 to 3.2 billion and our net profit guidance to 2.2 billion. Dividend policy at 70% payouts is confirmed. Let's move to group financial results on slide four. Posted delivered some performance in the second quarter and first half of the year. Less focus on the first half with a regular top line at 6.5 billion up 5% year-on-year. Adjusted EBIT is at 1.7 euro and net profit at 1.2 billion up a remarkable 12% and 14% respectively. These are our best ever first half results since going public. And for the quarter, adjusted EBIT is at €864 million and net profit is at €572 million, up 10% and 9% respectively. On slide 5, the strong underlying revenue momentum across all our business segments continues in the second quarter. In mail, parcel and distribution, revenue growth was driven by increasing parcel volumes. The anticipated decline in mail volume is effectively mitigated through ongoing repricing actions. In financial services, revenue increased by 6% year-on-year to $2.8 billion, supported by record-level quarterly NII and solid commercial performance. Insurance services increased delivers strong profitability in both life and protection segments. Revenues rose 10% in the first half, reflecting growing CSM and higher release. Post-appendix services' unique and integrated ecosystem of everyday services deliver growth in both revenues and profitability. Payment revenues benefited from an overall increase in charge users by our clients. the telco customer base remained solid and stable, while the number of energy clients has almost doubled year-on-year, reaching around 900,000 clients. Let's go, please, to slide 6, and edit evolution by segment. Mail password and distribution reported an adjusted edit of 67,000,000 for the first half of 2025, in line with our full year guidance. Financial services operating profitability is up a sound 27% in the half to 528 million euro, driven by record MAI and overall strong revenue strength across products. Insurance services EBIT is up 8% to $789 million in the first half, supported by both life, investments, and protection. Finally, off-the-pay services EBIT rose at 11% to $276 million in the first half, driven by resilient top-line performance and effective cost management. Let's move to a more detailed review of the financial by our CFO. Over to you, Camillo, please.

Thank you, Matteo, and good afternoon, everyone. Let's move to slide 8 on mail parcel and distribution. Revenues amount to $160 million in Q2 and $1.9 billion in H1, up both 1%. Male revenues at 516 million in Q2 and at just over 1 billion in H1 are in line with the trend to anticipate with our fiscal 25 guidance in February. In addition, the year-on-year comparison on male revenues is unfavorable this quarter. 2024 benefited from positive one-off items and Q2 2024 in particular benefited from volumes related to the EU elections. Partial revenues are up 9% to $408 million in Q2 and up 8% to $801 million in H1, supported by all customer segments with a strong acceleration versus Q1. Distribution revenues from other business units are up almost 4% in Q2 and H1, reflecting positive commercial trends. Adjusted interest $67 million in H125 is in line with the guidance provided for the full year. Let's look at volumes and tariffs on slide number 9. Parcel volumes are up a solid 14% in Q2 and 11% in H1 to 159 million items, with growth in all customer segments, from large e-commerce platforms to small-medium merchants, as we are managing increasing volumes, gaining market share from competitors. In Q2, we also increased the portion of items delivered via the postal network to 43%, with a positive contribution to overall business profitability. Looking at prices, the average tariff was impacted by higher volumes with lower pricing and unit costs, as we saw a strong acceleration versus Q1 of volumes in second-hand items and bookless returns. Moving to mail, the volume trend is in line with expectations, with the bulk of the volume decline concentrated in lower value items such as direct marketing and registered mail. We continue to compensate the anticipated volume decline with ongoing operating actions across both regulated and market products. Moving to financial services line number 10. Gross revenues for the quarter came at 1.7 billion and 3.4 billion for each one, both up 7%. Net interest income came at a record 671 million in Q2, up 3%, and at 1.3 billion in the half, up 7%, benefiting from higher average deposits and lower cost of funding. Postal saving distribution fees amounted to 451 million in Q2, up 9%, and 892 million in H1, up 6% in the first six months, supported by improving gross inflows and longer maturity of products sold. Consumer loan distribution fees reached 69 million in the quarter, up 17%, and 140 million in the half, up 15%, driven by higher margins. A different problem mix with lower upfront fees leads to Q2 revenues of 46 million and the first half of 89 million in asset management, while OEMs are growing thanks to positive net inflows. Finally, adjusted EBIT came in at 168 million in Q2, up 23%, and at 528 million in the first half, up 27% when compared to the first half of 2024, on the back of positive revenue trends. Moving to slide 11, TFA's continue to grow, reaching $600 billion in the half, up $9 billion from the start of the year. Let's look at each component. We reported strong $1.9 billion net inflows in investment products, confirming the positive trend in life insurance, where net inflows reached just under $1 billion. Deposits were up, benefiting from resilient retail deposits at $58 billion and higher balances from the PA clients, which, however, have a more volatile nature. Postal saving net outflows were driven by high maturities mitigated by new commercial initiatives resulting in strong gross inflows.

Moving to slide 12.

Insurance services revenues amounted to $464 million in Q2, up 8% year-on-year and $0.9 billion in H1, up 10% and supported by both life and protection. We continue to report positive net flows, also in Q2, driven by strong growth rate and premiums, up 20% year-on-year, with increased share of multi-class products. Our new advisory offering, built in the context of our new commercial service model, is leading to proactive rebalancing of our client portfolios, resulting in a lapse rate of 8.9% in the first half of the year, 45% of which have been reinvested into new life and investment projects, and pension products. LIFE investment and pension revenues are up 9% to $412 million in Q2 and up 10% to $811 million in H1, on the back of higher CSM stock and CSM release. Protection revenues are up a strong 9% in H1, supported by higher gross return premiums, up 29% in the first half, and a remarkable 43% in the quarter, also boosted by new corporate contracts. Combined ratios stood at 83% in the first half, while we confirmed our fiscal year 25 guidance of about 85%. Adjusted EBITDA of $789 million in the first half is up 8% to H1-24, reflecting top-line trends. On slide 13, we showed the CSM evolution in the first half of 2025. Our stock of CSM has grown to $14.2 billion on the back of strong new business and recovery of financial variances. This provides us with strong visibility on the future profitability of the business. Normalized CSM growth stood at 3.2% on an annualized basis, up from 2% in 2024, with a significant increase in new business value and expected return more than compensating H1-25 releases. Let's look at solvency ratio evolution of slide 14. Post Evita's group solvency 2 was at 315 at the end of June 2025. Well above the managerial ambition of circa 200% of the cycle, this ratio already embeds the 100% remittance net of profit for the period to the parent company, as well as the impact from the first 100 million additional remittance paid in June. The improvement was mainly related to the reduction of BTP spread over the quarter. Our solvency to ratio currently stands between 305 and 320%. Moving to post-APEI service on slide 15. The post-APEI ecosystem continues to represent a powerful engine of growth, innovation and customer engagement for the group. Revenues rose to $404 million in Q2 and $802 million in H1, up 6% and 5% respectively, with a strong recovery in payments growth in Q2. Payment revenues are up 5% to 296 million in Q2 and up 3% to 518 million in H1, supported by transaction value growth of 11% in the quarter and 9% year-to-date. The dual number of ecosystem transactions also accelerated in the quarter with a 15% year-on-year growth, testament to our clients' increased card usage. This performance offsets the decline in instant payment revenues following recent EU regulatory changes. Telco revenues are stable in the quarter and up 1% in each one to $165 million, supported by our resilient client base and the new Fiber offer. Finally, energy net revenues are up a remarkable 68% to $57 million in the first half, reflecting an increased customer base currently at around 900,000 clients. Adjustability grew 9% to $144 million in Q2. and 11% to $276 million in H1, underpinned by solid top-end performance and cost discipline.

On slide 16, let's look at workforce evolution.

In the first half of the year, the average headcount was just shy of $120,000, with the increase aimed at supporting business growth, both at the holding company and subsidiaries. HR costs per FTE are up 2% to 47,800 euro, driven by increases linked to the new labor agreement and variable compensation to reward performance. Moving to group HR costs on slide 17. In H1, ordinary HR costs increased by 3% to just under 2.9 billion due to the higher FTEs and variable compensation as already mentioned. In the half, ordinary HR costs on revenues were down to 40%. Moving to slide 18, non-HR costs increased by 120 million year-on-year, mainly driven by 72 million additional variable COGS reflecting higher business volumes. Fixed COGS are up 10 million. DNA are up by 38 million in light of the increase in investments driving our continuous transformation. In general, our focus on cost and capital discipline across all divisions remains the laser sharpens protecting the bottom line profitability as well as cash flow remains our top priority. Thank you for your time. Let me hand over to Matteo for a wrap-up.

Thank you, Camillo. I'm proud to say that 2025 is progressing very well, with these results reflecting consistent strength across all businesses, achieving record first-half revenues and profitability. We continue to build upon our solid momentum with clear commitment to generate long-term value for our stakeholders. The strong performance today gives us the confidence to raise our full year 2025 guidance. We're increasing it at the adjusted EBIT level from the initial $3.1 to $3.2 billion. and the 2025 net profit guidance from 2.1 to 2.2 billion, resulting in a higher shoulder remuneration in light of our dividend policy based on a payout ratio. We maintain a solid group balance sheet with low leverage and an insurance solvency 2 ratio at 315%, well above our managerial ambition, providing us with significant financial flexibilities. Our unique model continues to position us well for sustainable, profitable growth in all market conditions and is fully supported by the strong diversification of the group. Finally, I want to thank again our dedicated employees whose hard work, commitment, and professional skills are key to the strong results that we continue to achieve. Thank you for listening, and Giuseppe, it's over to you for the Q&A. Thank you, Matteo.

So we're ready to start the Q&A session. To ask a question, please press Start 1. And to remove yourself from the question queue, please press Start 2. I ask you to limit yourself to two questions. The first question we have is from Gianluca Ferrari, Mediobanca. Hi, Gianluca.

Yes, hi, good afternoon, ciao Matteo, ciao Camilla, ciao Giuseppe. The first is on the news of the day, so the article reporting that you might be exploiting a Danish compromise to be applied to the group and that would also bring a reorganization of your operations. Now, apart from the comments you can make today, my question is, in case of a significant benefit, would you ever consider taking a full banking license? Second question is on the retail investment flows. Apparently, the number is not that high in Q2, but I think if my reading is correct, you made a very strong requalification of your last business in Q2 with a big switch from G&A Savings into Uniten Multiclass. And if you can remind us, what are the margins on those two products? On the postal savings, it seems that the net outflows are reducing quite materially, so much more gross flows. And will this lead to potentially more than $1.7 billion for the year? Thank you.

Thank you Gianluca. I'll take the first question and let Camillo take retail investment flows and gross postal savings. The answer is very simple. I mean, technically today, as you pointed out, we don't have a banking license. This is a decision that lies with our shareholder, not with management. But as far as we know, there is nothing in the cards of changing the status of Poste Italiana. So there is nothing... to focus upon the Danish compromise space at the moment, as far as we know. Please, Claudino.

Yeah, so I'll start talking about the net inflows. First of all, I'll say that the net inflows are in line with our expectations. We have had an acceleration in net inflows in 2020. The insurance business, if you compare it to both the first quarter and second quarter of 2024, which objectively were unsatisfactory with 100 million of net inflows, and we are, as I said, exactly in line with what we expect to do for the full year, which is probably twice that amount. Secondly, I would also like to point out that we had also very strong performance in terms of gross inflows, both on insurance and our postal business, so our retail workforce has been working very hard to convert the gross maturity that we had. Just to give you a number, only in the second quarter, and this is in the appendix of the presentation, we had a billion more of gross inflows if compared to the same period of last year, a bit more than 4 billion in Q2 2024 to a bit more than 5 in Q2 2025. With respect to the other question on postal savings, we had indeed a good first half. At this point, we do not intend to change the guidance on specifically this product or on any other product for that matter. What we want to do is that we want to give you an overall feel of what's going to be the elite of the group, which we feel comfortable is increasing by 100 million in terms of guidance from 3.1 to 3.2. It is probable to assume that part of the performance will also come from postal savings, like possibly some other stuff from NII or other divisions of the business. You also asked a question around... fees in capital-guaranteed versus non-capital-guaranteed. Yes, we have marginally higher fees in the multi-class products. an amount which I would, a tenth of 100 basis points of magnitude. But obviously what we are doing here is that we are moving our customer base towards products that are more competitive in the current rate environment. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Next question is from Alberto Villa of Intermonte. Go ahead, Alberto.

Thank you very much for taking my questions. A couple from my side. One is again on the potential reorganization. First of all, just to understand if this is something that you are considering or not and then if this would be eventually functional also to manage the reorganization of payments and mobile businesses and if it could eventually facilitate in the future the combination of the mobile business with the team in the future, if that is something that could be considered in the future. And the second question is related to the revision of the guidance. I see that the NII is stronger than expected and the first alpha was very strong. So I was considering whether the revision of the guidance is mostly related to NII or there are other parts of the business that are delivering stronger compared to what you anticipated when you released the guidance. And finally on the NII, The dynamics we have to consider on the second half of the year, also considering the resetting in September, please, just to understand what are your expectations for the second part of the year in terms of NII. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Alberto. I will take the first question and then let Camilla Jane to prepare for the second one. I mean, there is, first of all, at the moment we are technically not yet fully authorized by the antitrust as owner of Thin. So, you know, we're still in the process of getting the final clearance. Having said that, assuming we will get the clearance soon, sometime down the road we will explore potential additional synergies on the cost side for sure and we will start looking at the revenue side of the income statement as well in the future but to do that it doesn't need to you know at the moment we don't I think there is any reorganization needed to achieve, within Pulse, to achieve those results. So we can carry on as I answered to Gianluca, back to our current organization. And obviously, you know, we're always trying to optimize everything we do. But at the moment, you know, winning team, you don't change.

So with respect instead to the other part of the question, which was what contributes to upgrade the guidance, and secondly, NII, I'll start with NII. So when we presented the numbers in February, we talked about overall portfolio return of $2.6 billion. The $2.6 billion was a combination of around $2.5 billion of NII and around $100 million of what we call active portfolio management, total $2.6 billion. What we are now saying is that we think that that number will indeed be 2.6 with probably a lower contribution of active portfolio management as the business is performing in a way that we might decide also for overlooking to keep some of those gains in the base of our investments. And with respect instead to the guidance, I'll repeat what I said to Gianluca, which is that we have indeed increased the EBIT of 100 million from 3.1 to 3.2. There are a number of drivers for EBIT. that decision. One is certainly NII, but not the only one. Postal savings are also performing well, as was highlighted, and also other parts of the business are doing too. Also, both the insurance and the payments business are performing strongly. So I think I wouldn't single out a single driver for that decision.

Thank you. The next question is from Andrea Lisi of Etica. Go ahead, Andrea.

Thank you for taking my question. The first one is on the trend we are observing on the mail business where there is an acceleration in the year-in-year decline of revenues versus the first quarter, especially linked to the trend in volumes. Just wondering to understand if this trend is the one that you were expecting and if we should expect it to continue also in the coming quarters. The second question is on the protection business where we are observing a strong year-on-year growth in the corporate side. Is it a relief to the NASCA's mandate of recovery or is it a relief to something else? How are you positioned on this front? And every last one is still on NII, which benefits the year from higher volumes of investment and also on the asset use side. The question is, do you have further margin to increase the size of the portfolio, also considering your leverage ratio, the position of your leverage ratio? Thank you. Thank you so much.

Okay. I'll take the last one and let Camillo prepare for the main revenue trend and protection business. We do have marginal room for increasing the leverage. Thank you for your questions. I wanted to take the opportunity to remind you and the other people on the call that we've been working on the stability of the return of our portfolio for the last three to four years. So when rates back up back in 2022, we took the opportunity to try to immunize and get the highest possible return in our portfolio so that when rates eventually drop, would have gone south, we would have had the maximum possible resilience. And that's what we are showing today, and that's what we have committed to when we launched our plan in March last year. So we are performing well. our plan, but the aim of the management is to try to keep the investment portfolio return stable year on year if possible, increasing it when the market allows us to do so. Please, Camillo.

Okay, so I'll start with mail. So, I guess that without going too back in time, we have been quite transparent on the fact that the secular trend of mail was downwards as opposed to upwards. We had a positive year in 2024 with... above expectations performance that was also driven by positive one-offs and we specifically talk about one in Q2 2025 as in Q2 2024 we had European elections which contributed around 20 million to the performance of the quarter. The performance of mail business in the second half of the year is not expected at this point to be impacted by other one-off. It's going to be down compared to 2024, but absolutely and very forcefully, I reconfirm, it's going to be at least in line with our expectations. Our expectations is that mail business will contribute 2.1 billion in revenues for 2025. So we are exactly in line with the trend. With respect, sorry, a touch more saying that that trend will be supported by continued repricing actions, including the OSU repricing as of the 1st of April, and we have the benefit of repricing around 15 million in Q2, and we will continue throughout the year. With respect to the performance of Q3, P&C, we were pleased too by that performance. The first general point is that the strength of the business was throughout the different categories, both at Poste Sicura, Poste Vita, but also NET, our business, and at insurance. The things I would single out in Q2 are with regards to specific couple of positive contracts that we won in the corporate world with two large customers who started to contribute to the P&L of the business. Here, instead, we have given a guidance of the year of premium while in excess of a billion. That's obviously where we will go, probably be shy of 1.5 billion.

Thank you. And with respect to the net cut business, you're not seeing... any revenues there, because we have already started, but we are ready. We're not going to be big in the space, but we have the product, and we're starting to market it mainly to SMEs.

Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. Next question is from EMP. Do I have the answer?

Hi, afternoon everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one was just on the lapse rate in the insurance division. Just trying to get an understanding of if you see that lapse rate being driven by those commercial actions and if the two-point increase that we've seen is something that you sort of expected and are comfortable with. And the second one is just on the foster pay. This has been a quite marked decline in the total number of card stock at foster pay. If you could just give some detail about what's driving that and if the expectation was that the card stocks would fall and that would be offset by the digital payments in the plan.

Those are my two questions, so thank you. Okay. On that, Camillo, and I will be answering on card stock.

Yes. So as I've mentioned, I think one of the previous questions. This year we have been much more proactive in terms of commercial actions with our customer base and we have tried in the benefit of our customers to migrate some of them towards a product that is not fully capital guaranteed but towards a product that has some flavor of equity content. That has led to close to 50% in the second half of induced lapse rate. Anyway, if you were to exclude that managerial action, you would have a lapse rate in there of 4%, which is much closer to what we had historically. You should assume that this managerial actions will continue as the strategy is to move more of our customers towards that type of product which we believe that in this environment is more conducive to value generation.

And Ian, on the cards, stock is correct. We decrease the number of cards which is a specific evidence of the fact that the Italian government has stopped paying the minimum salary to citizens and that was done in the past through a post card so that's a specific technical aspect you see there what I think is more relevant for our business is that we look at the usage of the cards, so our market share of the transactions that are done with cards, both physical and digital, both on physical sites and on services, so online, and the first half of the year from the data we have was a meaningful increase in our market share of the transaction with cards. So we restarted growing in 2025 after we were relatively stable for a couple of years after a big increase we experienced from 2019 to 2021.

Thank you.

Okay, next question is from Michael Apner at Berenberg. Please go ahead, Michael.

Fantastic, thank you. Two questions. One, you just mentioned increased market share, and it seems to come through not just in cards but in mail, obviously. It feels like you're gaining market share and insurance and possibly also in deposits. So just wondering what's driving this. Is there a big campaign with a big picture of Matteo and Camilla at the front saying positive is great? I know it sounds facile, but there seems to be a shift here. I'd be interested. And the second one is the FTEs is rising. Now, I've always hoped or felt that part of the strategy would be to try and reduce or limit the FTEs. the growth in HR costs, and it seems to be the opposite trend, not just in terms of cost per head, but also in terms of number. My guess is it's linked to what I see as increased market share, but any thoughts would be helpful. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, Michael. I'll answer the first question and set the scene for him to answer the second one. I think we're not winning market share everywhere, but we monitor market share very closely because for us having a platform strategy based on often relatively low margin products, increasing market share is extremely important. So we go for volumes and we need to see those volumes coming through. So I think the fact that we are managing to win market share in relatively a high number of products and industry is due to the fact that one, we offer to our clients the best service in terms of physical versus digital. Let me take the opportunity to say that, you know, on the digital side, we are increasing our footprint. Today we're doing 26.5 million daily interaction with Italians. Our unique app, the one that will combine all services of Poste Italiane, has reached over 9 million users. Italians lean to it, and we have another 6.5 that will move by the end, by mid-October 2025, so last quarter we'll have more than 15, 16 million Italians on one single app. That single app has five times the conversion rate of any cell channel of the the legacy Banco Posta and PostaPay. So when you go on that app, the UX is helping us doing the sale. And, you know, we also observe the fact that the clients that are buying more products and helping us increase market share across Products are the ones that have a hybrid approach about the use of postage. So they most of the time go digital, but every now and then when they need to, they go to the office. And those are the clients that have postage. more products of Tolstoy and therefore of supporting the market share. So I hope I was, you know, Michael, clear enough in one word. Hopefully, this is the platform effect.

And with respect to FTEs, it is true that FTEs are up compared to This is also true that we said that for 2025 the FTEs would have stood around 120,000. We are slightly shy of that number. We have a business which is growing and that requires additional manpower, not only at the holding company but also some of our subsidiaries. as I mentioned, so that is in terms of number of heads, in terms of labor labor cost our colleagues have a four-year union negotiated agreement which ends at the 31st of december 2027 it has specifically specific salary increase on a yearly basis so that is within our numbers and and planned what we show in the presentation also is that the people affect in terms of additional heads that we have, where it's around 37 million, whereas instead we have 46 million, which are related not only to the salary increase, which is unions negotiated, which I just mentioned, but also related to increased premium to the network to ensure that, in fact, our products are sold exactly as the CEO was saying. So we basically pay more and more for performance.

Fantastic. Thank you.

Okay, the next question is from Manuela Meloni, Bancaini. Please go ahead, Manuela.

Thank you for taking my questions. I have two. The first one is a follow-up on the potential organization. Do you see, from a theoretical point of view, any financial or industrial benefit from reorganizing all your financial activities under Banco Posta? And the second question is on your active portfolio management activities. I noticed that they unrealized their capital losses on the government bond portfolios turned into capital gains. You said that you're not going to realize capital gains in the second part of the year. This is what I understood. So I would like to understand how we can, let's say, what are you going to do with the capital gains going forward? Are you going to use it in an opportunistic way so you can, if you can please explain guide us on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Manuela. I'll take your second question. We haven't stated that we're not going to do additional capital gains in the second half, so we're still assessing the best market opportunity and it will not certainly be more than what we had in the budget which is short of 100 million so that you can certainly consider it as a cap for the total year. The capital gain that we now have in the portfolio has emerged as a significant amount on a gross basis we basically reach 1.9 billion euro and we always stated since our first plan in February of 2018 that you have a sort of a balancing effect of NII versus capital gains over time depending on the interest rate environment. So we're probably getting to the phase where the capital gain component of our investment portfolio returns. We will, you know, going forward, grow to balance what we are going to lose on the NII market. side of the investment portfolio picture. So that's, you know, you could probably consider 2025 as a turning year and, you know, from 2026 is probably going to be a different pattern. And on, you know, your first question, I think I don't have anything more to say that is not in the cards at the moment. There is no further question. So thank you all for joining us today. Thank you, everybody. Thank you for the time.