PT Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison Tbk

Hello everyone, thank you for standing by. Welcome to PT Indosat PBK FY25 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question and answer session. To ask a question, you will need to press star 11 on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message and writing your hand is raised. Please be reminded that today's conference call is being recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your first speaker today, Pa Inder Dhaliwal. Thank you. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Desmond. Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for joining us on the call today. With us on the call today, we have Pa Vikram Sinha, our Chief Executive Officer, Pa Nikki Lee, our Chief Financial Officer, as well as Pa Bilal Kazmi, our Chief Commercial Officer. I will now hand over the call to Pa Vikram for his opening remarks. Over to you, sir.

Thanks, Inder. Good afternoon, everyone. I am pleased to report a strong set of numbers in the fourth quarter of 2025, delivering on our guidance as promised for the full year. This means that we have ended the year on a solid trajectory heading into 2026. If you look at the next slide, here are some of the key highlights of our fourth quarter of 2025. where we are seeing strong performance across both financial and operational matrix. Revenue grew strongly during the quarter, and our EBITDA grew faster than revenue, reflecting our continued focus on profitability. And we have delivered strong net profit as we continue to deliver value to all our stakeholders. The key reason for our strong performance is our core cellular business is our customer ARPU, which grew 11% quarter on quarter to 44,000 IDR, which is the highest level since merger. ARPU remains Indonesia's biggest opportunity, and we are pleased to report continued positive momentum on ARPU heading into 2026. Our initiative that we have, we continue to deliver such as AI-powered hyper-personalization and our focus on delivering marvelous customer experience powered by strong network was the main reason driving this strong ARPU growth. We still feel upside for ARPU and we are committed to fully realize this opportunity. If you look at the next slide, one of our key initiatives launched in 2025 was our AI-powered 360-degree scam and spam protection. Scams are a huge customer pain point. With more than 66% of Indonesian encountering a scam in the past six months, And this is a $5 billion US issue in the country. Our solution has been in offering AI protection through an agentic platform that has 99% efficacy in detecting scams and spams. This protects customers across all channels, including voice, SMS, VOIP, WhatsApp, and any popular medium. This is one of the key efforts in building our reputation as Indonesia's most trusted telco and to date we have delivered 100% protection to covered customers with more than 2 billion scams and scams prevented. This product is delivering us positive feedback and helping us to improve ARPU and lower our churn. This quarter, also marked a landmark first step towards stabilizing our fiber co along with our strategic partner. Through this transaction, we are positioning ourselves for future growth, especially in the fiber to home business. The three key objective that this transaction give us are number one, monetizing our asset to unlock value. In Q2, Q3, we will be receiving, IOH will receive USD 700 million US dollar. The other important point on this partnership is that now we have a partner with deep local expertise, which will help us grow our FTTH business, but at the same time, we retain operational control over this fiber core. The other important initiative for us is our AI Neo Cloud platform, which was established in 2025. We set the foundation for our future growth in 2026. Our current capacity is fully contracted with USD 28 million USD revenue booked in 2025. We continue to enhance our full stack capabilities along with global giants as NVIDIA, Google, and others. and look forward to sharing more development on this in 2026. This solidifies IOH as an investment proposition with our core performing well and we aim to unlock further ARPU potential and drive sustained growth on mobile. The value of our fiber asset is being realized and positioned for future growth and expansion. and our NeoCloud platform is set for scale in 2026 to capture the growth opportunity in AI. Finally, our guidance for 2026, where we aim to grow both revenue and EBITDA mid to high single-digit level, and our planned capex spend is around $13 trillion. I will now hand over to Nikki for more detailed financial presentations.

Thank you, Professor Graham, and good afternoon, everyone. I'm delighted to report another solid set of results for the fourth quarter, where we have continued the positive momentum from the previous quarter. Our fourth quarter revenue grew 9.3%, quarter-on-quarter, driven by an increase in cellular revenue as we continue executing our strategy to accelerate growth through AI and enhanced network experience. Additionally, media revenue contributed to this performance, underpinned by our new cloud revenue. Below the revenue line, we delivered 11.6% quarter-to-quarter expansion in EBITDA, which outpaced revenue growth, reflecting our strict focus on cost leadership for growth. I will elaborate more on OPEX, on our cost in the OPEX section. As a result, our EBITDA margin rose by 1.247.2%. Normalized net profit increased by 51.2% quarter on quarter, largely reflecting the higher EBITDA and an operational one-off gain below EBITDA. The one-offs includes a 142 billion high gain on investment at fair value through profit and loss based on an independent valuation. Our net debt to EBITDA ratio declined by 0.1X to just 0.39X, underscoring our commitment to maintaining a healthy balance sheet. If we move on to the next slide, for full year 2025, Reported revenue increased by 1.1% year-on-year, supported by growth in both cellular and media revenue. The same factors I have highlighted earlier behind the quarter-and-quarter improvement mentioned earlier drive such improvement. Combined with continued cost leadership initiatives, This resulted in EBITDA growth of 0.8% year-on-year, while maintaining a fairly stable EBITDA margin at 47.1%. At the bottom line, net profit increased year-on-year on both reported and normalized basis by 12.2% and 11.6%, respectively, primarily reflecting the flow-through effects of high EBITDA, one of prior year tax reversal, as well as operational gains arising from gain on the investment at fair value through profits and loss, gain on disposal, asset disposals, and early site lease terminations. We saw increased spending compared with both prior year and previous quarter, driven by the strengthening momentum of our growth trajectory as we continue to capture and scale the emerging opportunities. Cost of services rose by 3% quarter-on-quarter, primarily driven by installation and partnership costs, supporting higher MIDI and VAS revenue. On year-on-year basis, cost of services increased by 5%, similar to the quarterly trend. Personal costs grew by 39% quarter-on-quarter, largely to do with higher variable pay for performance. On a year-on-year basis, though, they declined by 11%, again reflecting lower variable pay components such as bonuses and incentives compared to the prior year. On marketing expenses, it increased by 16% quarter-on-quarter, largely due to subscriber acquisition and year-end seasonal promotional activities to support revenue growth. Again, on a year-on-year basis, marketing spend declined by 16%, reflecting a strategic shift toward more targeted and cost-efficient digital marketing initiatives. G&A expenses quarter-and-quarter is flat on a On a YY basis, they increased by 9%, mainly driven by higher consultancy charges to support business growth. Overall, for full year 2025, OPACs increased by 1.4% year-on-year and 7.3% quarter-on-quarter, highlighting disciplined cost leadership to support and sustain our growth trajectory. Depreciation and amortization expenses increased by 2% year on year and 1% quarter on quarter due to the addition of fixed assets from network rollout to support medium to long-term growth. In quarter four, other operating income recorded a net income of $131 billion compared to $78 billion in the previous quarter. This variance was primarily attributable to gain on investment as I highlighted earlier. On a year-on-year basis, prior year tax provision reversal and operational one-off gain contributed to an increase in other operating income from $21 billion in 2024 to $509 billion this year in 2025. Moving on to take a look at CapEx. It reduced by 22% quarter-on-quarter to $2.54 trillion in Q4 last year due to the timing of one-off credit note from Fender. Our full-year CapEx realisation of $13.3 trillion was in line with our guidance. We delivered a solid improvement in our capital structure with net debt reducing 1.4% year-on-year and 18.9% quarter-on-quarter. Stronger EBITDA further enhances our leverage profile, driving 0.01x year-on-year and 0.1x quarter-and-quarter reduction in our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio, respectively. Thank you very much, and I will now hand over to Pak Bilal for the operational performance updates.

Thank you, Parik. And good afternoon to everyone. I think the headline from a commercial standpoint is positive operational trends. These are driven by solid data traffic growth, 7.6%, translating into very strong APU growth over a stable mobile base. What is also important to report is that our home broadband-based customer grew by 24,000 customers, which translates into a 6.6% growth. But we're also very, very excited about monetizing the impact of our 5G footprint, which now covers 24 cities in the country. In a country as big as Indonesia, one of the biggest opportunities is fixed wireless access. And there we would like to offer our customers high-spec 5G equipment, coupled with, I mean, you would know that for FWA, the onboarding...

Hi operator, can you hear us?

Yes, we can. We lost a little bit of audio earlier on. That would be best if we can restart the presentation from here.

I think we can move to the Q&A probably just from a time standpoint.

As a reminder, we will now begin the question and answer session. To ask questions again, please dial star 11 and wait for an interview now. Please stand by for the first question. Our first question comes from P.H. Chowdhury from HSBC. Please go ahead. Mr. Chowdhury, your line is open. You can unmute locally. Mr. Chowdhury, your line is open. You may unmute locally. Unfortunately, we cannot hear from the participants. Allow me to move on to the next question. If you would like to ask questions again, please dial star 11. Our next question comes from the line of Shukriti Bansal from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Hi, thank you. Thank you, Indrasat Manathan, for the presentation. And congratulations on the good quarter. Just a couple of questions. Firstly, on ARPU, we've clearly seen strong growth to 44,000 IDR. Can you remind us what is the exit ARPU looking like? And in terms of month-on-month, what was the trend from... October to November, November to December a little bit, and also how are we looking in January and what is the expectation going forward? And secondly, on the MIDI revenue, clearly good growth, but in terms of GPU as a service contribution, Can you remind us for the full year and for fourth quarter, what is the final contribution that we had from this business? Because it still looks a little bit lower than what we were expecting, I think, for the full year. Also, if there's anything you can share on what is the EBITDA that we've observed from this business.

That's all from my side.

Thank you for your patience. We seem to have lost the speakers' lines. Allow us to check and the conference will resume shortly. Thank you. One of the speakers is George Williams from Telecom Digital News. Please stand. Ladies and gentlemen, the conference will resume shortly. Ladies and gentlemen, the speaker is experiencing some technical difficulties. The conference will resume shortly. Please come to the standby. Thank you for your patience. Ladies and gentlemen, the conference call will resume momentarily. Please continue to stand by. Thank you for your patience. because experiencing something before people feel least, we continue to stand by and try to run through this in short. Hello, this is the operator speaking. You're now reconnected. Please continue.

Hi, Jasmine, can you hear us?

Yes, we can. Please continue. We have a question from Security Bansal. Please go ahead with your question.

Hi, just before we go into the question, apologies, we had a bit of a technical error. I think let's just start the question and answer flow again. So Sukriti will be the first question and then we'll go back to whoever's question that we missed earlier. Go ahead Sukriti.

Thank you, Inder. Thank you, operator. And thank you, management, for the presentation. A couple of quick questions for me. Firstly, on the ARPU, you know, strong growth in 4Q at 44,000 IDR, can you remind us what is the December, what did the December exit ARPU look like? And also month on month, what were the trends like and how is ARPU looking, you know, going into... Also, in terms of the midi revenue, again, strong growth in 4Q, but it was expected that most of the GPU as a service contribution will be coming a large part in 4Q. So can you remind us what was the final contribution from this business? for 4Q and for the full year and what is the EBITDA that we've observed from this business for the full year and also what is the expectation going into 2026 for contribution from this business.

That will be all. Hi, hi, so quickly, this is Vikram. Let me start with the Harpoon. I think as you saw in the for the growth was very strong, close to 11% on a stable pace. But we have seen a lot of symptoms in the market, which is good for the future. So I think we are now sitting at around 44,000-45,000 monthly ARCO. And we see a good momentum as we have brought in in February. So that is why, to highlight it, we still see a lot of upside on ARCO. and we will continue to focus on that. Especially some of our initiatives on AI-led hyper-personalization, some of the products like Spam and Scam.

Overall, our focus will be on quality and safety. This is what I can say. Nikhil, you want to take this question?

Certainly. For GPU, the Q4 revenue is around $20 million. So the outlook for 2026 would be around $50 to $60 million based on the current contract. But we are very confident that we will get there. Before that happens, this is the number I can share.

Understood.

Thank you. And any outlook on the EBITDA that we had from this business?

We don't share the margin for the contracts.

Got it. Understood. That's all from my side.

Thank you for the question. One more for the next question. Our next question comes from Piyush Chaudhary from HSBC. Please go ahead.

Yeah, hi. Can you hear me?

Yeah, Piyush, please go ahead.

Yeah, hi. Congratulations, management, on stellar results and strong recovery in mobile R2. Firstly, on the mobile segment, could you tell us whether all the initiatives which you undertook in 4Q is kind of reflected in the ARPU or you are experiencing kind of sustained growth going into 2026? And when can we expect subscribers to stabilize and start growing? So that's the first question. Secondly, on the cost side, are there any one-off items in fourth quarter We observe rental and services cost is down 29% quarter on quarter. What led to it? Is there any one-off here? And any like cost in kind of investments in 2020, OPEX investments, because your guidance suggests of a stable margin year on year. So any color there will be helpful. Thank you.

Thank you. Let's start with the cost.

Yeah, on the cost, We have used to have, you know, some ups and downs, show-off adjustments, things like that, you know. So we have some of those in Q4 also, not that we don't have adjustments in Q3, right? So you're seeing some of those impacts reflected in the lease cost.

Hi, Piyush. This is Vikram. I think on the mobile segment, our initiative, especially on the AI hyper-personalization, you know, it is all data is getting trained and it is getting more effective. So what I'll say is we see much more opportunity getting into 2026. The other important thing to highlight is, you know, we have seen significant improvement on our churn also, especially greater than 180 days base. So overall, we see much more opportunity and upside on ARPU. And early days of Q1 also is trending on that direction. In terms of base, I think one good thing which is happening on the market with much more discipline on SIMs is a bit of a consolidation of rotational customers. So we see a very strong momentum on ARPU daily. daily data unique users. But in terms of reported number, I think it's more of a base which last quarter we lost around half million customers. But from an overall, you know, it is looking very solid. And again, our aim is to have both progressive base and progressive R2.

Thanks, Vikram. This is very helpful. Just going back on the cost side, is it possible to call out how much was the one-off adjustment in fourth quarter, like a positive attribution? And is it right to think that you are suggesting of a flat margin for 2026 from a guidance perspective?

Yeah, we will come back to you. I don't have the number in front of me. In terms of the guidance, we don't feel there will be a significant movement. We improve the EBITDA margin by 1%, but we will need to see how the revenue mix will change and all that. We'll give more color in the upcoming quarters. Sure, Nikki.

Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you for the questions. One moment for the next question. Next question, we have the live from Sachin Mittal from DBS. Please go ahead.

Yeah. Congress management on, I think, 11% quarter and quarter R2, which is probably waiting for the results, I think, higher than the industry. Two questions here. Firstly, when we look at the guidance, it's like a mid-single digit to high-single digit. Well, the ARPU is actually almost double-digit. So, trying to understand what are the levers to watch for, you know, what could take it to high-single digit and what could take it to mid-single digit, you know, is it mobile? Is it MIDI? Just to understand what to monitor from mid-single digit to high-single digit, what are the variables, given that ARPU is already quite solid. Secondly, could you also disclose a little bit on the expected dividend payout, how to think of the payout for this year, and any color on the dividend will be useful here. Thank you.

Hi, Sachin. This is Vikram. Vikram. I think, you know, we wanted to stay very conservative in terms of our guidance. You know, last year has been a great year for learning. You know, so we live in a very uncertain world. So we don't want to overguide. That is why we have been conservative on mid to high. That is what I say. But our tools and the victory into the year is looking very rock solid. All our fundamentals are very rock solid. So you know things are heading towards close to double digit but again we want to not over guide the market that is what our approach will be number one. Number two on dividend while we have you must have seen that the net profit dividend is linked to net profit there is a solid increase on year on year and we have had policy on dividend very clear that we want to go up to 70% by 2028. Nicky, you want to add to that? Yeah.

Hi, Sachin. I just share on dividend. So we published our dividend policy last year for year 2024. The payout was 55%. So our intention is to raise the payout ratio gradually to 70% for year 2026. For 2025, we need to go through our process to determine it will be higher than 55, but less than 70. So somewhere within this range, but with the much better net profit, the payout, the actual dividend should be much better than 2024.

Got it.

Great. Thank you. Thank you, Vikram.

Thank you for the questions. One moment for the next question. Next question. We have the line from Ranjan Sharma of JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Hi, good afternoon. Can you hear me?

Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead.

Thank you for the presentation and the opportunity. A couple of questions from my side. Again, starting with the guidance, if I just analyze your fourth quarter revenues on EBITDA, we should get to like an 8%, 9% growth in revenues on EBITDA in 2026. but your guidance is like mid to high single digit. I mean, should we expect no growth in quarterly revenues from the fourth quarter onwards? Just trying to think, how are you thinking about the guidance? The second question is, as you spin off the private assets, I believe you're no longer going to be majority shareholder in this. So is it fair to assume it's getting deconsolidated And what is the impact on revenues and EBITDA from the change in accounting? And the last question is a housekeeping question. If I look at slide 14 of your presentation, you talk about normalized profit of 1,993 for the fourth quarter. But if I look at slide 24, You disclosed a net profit of 1930. I know it's not material, but just want to understand what the difference is. Thank you.

Hi, Ranjan. This is Vikram. On guidance, you know, I think we are trending towards 9-10% growth. So there is no reason, you know, we should go below that. But again, learning from last year, we just want to be a little prudent. On early days of lot of recovery on micro, we have seen domestic consumption getting better. So we want to watch out for this little more. We had a very painful year last year, especially lower value customer, middle class, they were optimizing. So in quarter four, we have seen early signs of recovery. And we expect more to come, especially on domestic demand. That is the only reason why we have put it mid to high, single digit. But today, as we speak, we are trending towards double-digit revenue growth.

We will take spin-off asset.

Yes. Hi, Venjit. On this spin-off asset, the revenue would not be impacted. And the impact on EBITDA would be fairly small if we load single digit on EBITDA.

I think Ranjan, the important thing to note is this is a very strategic transaction which we have done. While we have been able to retain our operational control, but at the same time, we will be not consolidating. So we are in the process of signing to clothing. We expect 700 million US dollars to IOH between Q2 and Q3. This is the timing of the clothing. So you will have to wait for a little more to have the full color. But as Nikki said, the impact on EBITDA will be very small. But overall, this will help us significantly unlock a lot of value for IOH.

Ranjan, just on your third question, let us get back to you after the call on the online network.

Got it. Thanks. Maybe a quick follow-up for Parvathram and Nicky. You are saying that there won't be any impact or there won't be any material impact on revenues and EBITDA from the deconsolidation, but you're getting $700 million in proceeds. So are you... Are these assets not generating revenues, but you're still able to get $700 million from them? That seems to be a pretty strong statement. Thank you.

Yes, yes. For revenue, we are confident. On EBITDA, Nikki will update you as we come closer. But yes, this is what I have been telling you, that there is a significant value unlock, which we are doing.

Yes, there will be some impact, as you know, on EBITDA, as well as on right? So, but it's not like a huge impact because we also get thinking there wouldn't be like the maintenance costs that we need to go forward, right? So it's a mix of the net impact from various factors.

Thanks, Kiki. But the impact can only be positive then, right? If these assets are not generating revenues, then there can only be some costs associated with them. And now you are reconsolidating it, so the EBITDA would go up.

No, IOH will have to pay to Alpaca for some of these services which we will take from them. This is like the sale and feedback. Okay, thank you. Okay.

Here we have the next question, operator.

Thank you for the question.

The next question, Dr. Pineda from CT.

Please go ahead.

Hi. Some questions have been asked. If I can just ask with regard to the licensing for 5G, I'm just wondering what your engagements are with the government, the expectations of the timetable, and if anything could happen this year or next year.

Sorry, Arthur, your voice is breaking up. You were asking about the spectrum options for 2026 and the timeline. Is that right?

Yes.

Hi, Arthur. This is Hitsam. So we are expecting Q2 700 and 0.6 to be option. That is what we are getting from the regulators for now.

Any discussions with regard to pricing or payment models for the auctions?

Look, we don't want to speculate on all those things. They have been always telling that they will look into making it better. But for now, you have to take it as a base case, the way Indonesia has been.

Understood. Okay, thank you.

There are no further questions from the room. I beg your pardon. I think we have a follow-up question. One moment, please. Follow-up questions from Sachin Mittal from DBS. Please go ahead. Excuse me, Sachin. Your line is open. You may leave locally.

Oh, yes. Hi. Hi, can you hear me? Yes. Okay. There's a follow-up question on the balance sheet. Now that we are waiting for proceeds from the fiber divestment, even then actually our balance sheet is below 0.4 time net debt to EBITDA. And the cash proceeds are there. I mean, balance sheet is maybe too healthy, maybe at this point. How do we plan to use the balance sheet to further accelerate the growth. Maybe that's a way to think about it. Of course, GPU as a service is a big opportunity. Could you just throw some light here if balance sheet can be used to accelerate? Because I think the demand seems to be quite huge in this business. The question is supply, right? Yeah. The penny color will be good in terms of balance sheet or GPU as a service if they can... you know, how they can be used together to further accelerate the growth in the, I don't know, near term or medium term?

So, thanks, Sachin. Thanks. You are right. We have a very healthy balance sheet. I think the good news is, you know, also the 5G cycle, we are seeing the cost of radios and coming closer to 4G. So, again, you know, We are in a very good place to unlock new opportunities, especially GPU as a service. Having said that, you know, we are working on few models. You will have to wait for another one quarter. But one thing I can tell you that we are getting a lot of interest from both regional and global customers because we have been able to change the capability of running workload for AI cloud, and we will, for sure, unlock this opportunity. How we use our balance sheet, we do our balance sheet. You will have to wait for one more quarter.

Okay. Thank you, Vikram.

Yeah. We also have a lot of questions from Piyush Choudhury of HSBC. Please go ahead.

Yeah, hi.

Can you hear me? Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I have two questions. Firstly, your interest expenses are kind of trending down. Just want to confirm if you can highlight, has there been any refinancing at the lower rate? How should we think of this, given you have a very strong balance sheet and Hi, this is Nicky.

Yes, yes, we get savings from many different aspects. Interest would be one of them. So we've been able to secure better pricing from banks. following the expansion in our business, our balance sheet is very healthy. So we feel blessed to have the banks trust DinoSet and willing to offer us better terms and better pricing. And also our debt is not heavy also on the balance sheet.

Right. Could you share if possible, what's like the latest funding cost for you?

Yeah, I think that we have shared the details in the notes if you are interested to read those details. So it's very transparent. Okay.

Thank you, Nikki. And second question on GPU as a service, where you mentioned current contracted revenue is $50 to $60 million for 2026. I recall in the last, in the third quarter, we were talking about 75 million number for 2026. So if you can help us understand like what changed and this 50 to 60 million is now contracted for two years, three years, like what's the timeframe here? Thank you.

This is all five-year contract. So, you know, all these are minimum five, to seven year. I think there is a bit of a one quarter flip over in terms of timing because of supply chain issue. There is also a lot of constraint on managing the end-to-end supply chain when it comes to new cloud. So that is the delay which is rolling over for next year also.

Got it Vikram. This is very clear. Thanks a lot for the clarification.

for the questions. We also have follow-up questions from . Please go ahead.

Thank you, management, for taking my follow-up questions. Two quick questions, again, from my side. Firstly, again, on the GPU as a service, is there any guidance for the capex we'll be incurring in 2026 on this business? And second question is on the fiber asset. I think you mentioned that you'll be receiving 700 million in between Q2, Q3, depending on the timing. Wasn't the figure supposed to be 870 million earlier? Has something changed in the transaction or did I get that wrong earlier?

So, Switi, this is Nikki. So on the new cloud, we will only need to incur further of CapEx when we secure new contracts. And as you would understand, the contracts are, you know, quite lumpy, so we have not included CapEx in this respect in our guidance. But for sure, we'll be updating analysts and shareholders going forward on this. On the Fiber, $700 million is what we will receive, and it has not been revised. I think the number you mentioned is enterprise value. And we still keep a stake in the business, yeah.

Understood. Thanks, Nikki. Also, any update on competition in this business? Because from what I understand, one of your peers is Surge Wi-Fi is going to launch their IRA very soon at 100,000 packages. Are we already seeing some increase in competition in this business? How should we think about that?

Hi. So, Nikki, this is Vikram. I think from very beginning they are very clear we don't want to operate in that 100k segment so there is no no such competition or anything which we have seen on the ground and then we are not even targeting 100k home customers understood very clear thank you very much management

We have a follow-up question from Arthur Pineda from CTU. Please go ahead.

Hi, thank you. Just a follow-up question as regards to the CAPEX. For the 13 trillion CAPEX guidance this year, does that include the 5G build-out, or is this the BAU CAPEX?

It is the BAU.

So this could potentially rise if you do get the options done in 2Q. That's how we should look at it?

I think there will be not significant rise on 5G graphics because, you know, the radio price of 4G and 5G is now converging. So, and then sometime it is good to be late and also we will be able to offload a lot of capacity to 5G. We are seeing a good surge on device penetration. So, not significant rise. Let's wait for it once the spectrum thing and all is done. But what I can tell you at this point of time, that it will not be significant for RG.

And, Arthur, if I may just clarify, when I say BAU, we have been rolling our 5Gs also today, in 2025. So it's a matter of after, I don't know what spectrum we will get, right, and at what terms, et cetera. So we will need to review what would be the pace of our 5G rollout, those 5G spectrum options. That's what I meant. Got it. Thank you. Thank you.

With that, we are now closing the Q&A session. No more further questions from the line. I would like to hand the call back to the management for closing remarks.

All right. Thank you, Desmond, and thank you, everyone, for joining us on the call. Apologies for that technical disruption we had there. Hope you got all your questions answered. If you have any more questions, please feel free to reach out, and we'll definitely address them. Thank you, and we'll speak to you soon.

Thank you. That does conclude today's conference call. Thank you for your patience. You may now disconnect.